Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Kumorii]

Boosting is a player created service. As long as it's facilitated by players and not the game itself is not p2w.
If player services are p2w then all games are, because anyone can sell anything to anyone. I can start offering to beat Sekiro for people, or get 100% in a game. Doesn't make the game p2w.

Now, lvl boost is certainly a p2w aspect, but doesn't seem to get much focus since no one really cares if you can get to 10 lvls below required lvl to actually start playing. It's negligible.

Auction house might be p2w as well. But doesn't seem to get focus either. Seems to me that people are just against boosting, which is fine, but doesn't make it p2w.

[rhorle]

It doesn't matter that I'm not personally the best player in the world! Humans are competitive even if it's the 999th best vs the 998th best!

Sure it does. No one cares about your progress in the game. No one is sitting at home browsing the internet and going, "Oh wow Epigramx has such that really awesome achievement". There is a world of difference between the Race to World First and everyone else that plays the game. The only one with logic faults here is yourself who constantly insults when their argument falls apart.

You literally said it yourself by saying almost nobody follows who picked the fanciest dress for transmog. Yet instead of acknowledging your own logic you insult and dismiss with silly remarks about human nature.

[Lochton]

Boosting is a player created service. As long as it's facilitated by players and not the game itself is not p2w.
If player services are p2w then all games are, because anyone can sell anything to anyone. I can start offering to beat Sekiro for people, or get 100% in a game. Doesn't make the game p2w.

Boosting is apparently P2W because you can buy a boost with gold from another player..

Now, lvl boost is certainly a p2w aspect, but doesn't seem to get much focus since no one really cares if you can get to 10 lvls below required lvl to actually start playing. It's negligible.

The level boost is just a catch-up through old content, not the current, never seen it as other.

Auction house might be p2w as well. But doesn't seem to get focus either. Seems to me that people are just against boosting, which is fine, but doesn't make it p2w.

If the Auction House is P2W, then trading with other players in general, is P2W. Then again, it is apparently P2W to trade with other players according to the thread.

[Kumorii]

Boosting is apparently P2W because you can buy a boost with gold from another player..


The level boost is just a catch-up through old content, not the current, never seen it as other.


If the Auction House is P2W, then trading with other players in general, is P2W. Then again, it is apparently P2W to trade with other players according to the thread.

Yes, which is my point actually. What actually can be considered p2w isn't what people are against. Literally any game that allows for trading gets turned into "p2w" because you can always pay for stuff rather than regular trading. But that's an absurd notion that just because players decide to sell things it's p2w.

[Relapses]

Why would someone that wastes so much money to pretend to have skill, stop at making multiple accounts.

It takes like 20 bucks to make a new account and some people are millionaires.

Do you actually think that somebody would just buy 58 WoW accounts so they could instantly obtain enough gold for a Mythic Sylvanas carry?

[Lochton]

Yes, which is my point actually. What actually can be considered p2w isn't what people are against. Literally any game that allows for trading gets turned into "p2w" because you can always pay for stuff rather than regular trading. But that's an absurd notion that just because players decide to sell things it's p2w.

Well, through this thread, it has been stretched.

I've always grown up seeing Pay2Win being the purchase of advantages or unobtainable items from the developer, but to fit this argument, it has been stretched so that the means of trading with other players with items such as game-time sales, is considered P2W because they get gold which can then be used for the purchase of anything in the game with a limit (which by that, should also include TCG and 1-2 pets on the store too). It is argued as, 'in-direct Pay-2-Win' or 'Pay-2-Win with more steps' which basically turns all MMOs into P2W games in the first place.

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Do you actually think that somebody would just buy 58 WoW accounts so they could instantly obtain enough gold for a Mythic Sylvanas carry?

Gold is already so easy to get. A non-token user can get a Mythic Sylvanas carry if they put work into it. Though, luckily, there are sane people only asking 20-50k for it, or even free.

[Kumorii]

Well, through this thread, it has been stretched.

I've always grown up seeing Pay2Win being the purchase of advantages or unobtainable items from the developer, but to fit this argument, it has been stretched so that the means of trading with other players with items such as game-time sales, is considered P2W because they get gold which can then be used for the purchase of anything in the game with a limit (which by that, should also include TCG and 1-2 pets on the store too). It is argued as, 'in-direct Pay-2-Win' or 'Pay-2-Win with more steps' which basically turns all MMOs into P2W games in the first place.

For sure. And frankly p2w isn't an objectively defined term. So everyone have different views. Which is why I mentioned AH and lvl boost because I can certainly see that pov. Even if it were, it's such a negligible effect so it doesn't really matter that someone can boost to 50.

[Dioporco]

But you don't win bugger all. No-one gives a damn about what achievements you have or how many PSN trophies you have, so by paying someone to farm them for you, all you're really doing is potentially depriving yourself of incredibly positive experiences. It's like buying a degree with a blank space for the name on it - yeah the end result is the same if you write your name on it, but you still know nothing & have had no experiences whatsoever

Same as buying mythic carry or whatever you can buy as pay to win in wow, if you dont sweat for it isnt earnt.

So then it isn't pay to win.

In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over their non-paying peers.

From the definition, so yes it fits.

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Boosting is apparently P2W because you can buy a boost with gold from another player.

It has already been explained :


Gold -> M+ / Mythic Carry = Boosting then there is a "if" switch regarding how that Gold is obtained, after farming for months? or buying tokens? There is the difference.

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I've always grown up seeing Pay2Win being the purchase of advantages or unobtainable items from the developer

You didnt look into very well then, because pay to win games ARE NOT 100% "buy the op item from the shop" and there are plenty of them in the mobile scenario.


Literally any EA sports game with cards is pay to win + gambler

[Relapses]

Gold is already so easy to get. A non-token user can get a Mythic Sylvanas carry if they put work into it. Though, luckily, there are sane people only asking 20-50k for it, or even free.

Heroic Sylv maybe...? I don't think anybody's giving away Mythic Sylv carries away.

[Dioporco]

Mythic Sylvanas cost 9.5 milion atm so like 650€/$
So I guess he is talking about Heroic Sylvanas like every other AOTC

Btw an infamous pay to win example


SPEND SOME GEMS TO RUSH THE BUILDING!
No unique item, use currency to skip time.

Same as tokens in wow to skip mythic progression or weeks of M+ declined

[crusadernero]

Mythic Sylvanas cost 9.5 milion atm so like 650€/$
So I guess he is talking about Heroic Sylvanas like every other AOTC

Btw an infamous pay to win example


SPEND SOME GEMS TO RUSH THE BUILDING!
No unique item, use currency to skip time.

Same as tokens in wow to skip mythic progression or weeks of M+ declined

Several of my friends would just buy a token or two and get the AOTC boosted, cause it was required to have it to join lots of activities. Since we cant play together all the time, we sometimes rely on pugs. I've never done it, but been tempted several times. Gives advantage to have certain achivs in place, especially early on.

[Dioporco]

Several of my friends would just buy a token or two and get the AOTC boosted, cause it was required to have it to join lots of activities. Since we cant play together all the time, we sometimes rely on pugs. I've never done it, but been tempted several times. Gives advantage to have certain achivs in place, especially early on.

Indeed usually a lot of people buy AOTC as soon as possible not because they are bad at the game but because getting AOTC early one gives an insane advantage further with pugs

Same probably for the M+15 weekly / GV

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This fine example of your friends buy tokens to get AOTC to safely get invited in pugs is in fact a pay to win mechanism. (also a pay to play due to how toxic is the pug community)

[Lochton]

Heroic Sylv maybe...? I don't think anybody's giving away Mythic Sylv carries away.

Last week, Mythic Sylvanas was given away for free on Argent Dawn EU by some because they could. Heroic is more often, and of course, cheaper.

[crusadernero]

Indeed usually a lot of people buy AOTC as soon as possible not because they are bad at the game but because getting AOTC early one gives an insane advantage further with pugs

Same probably for the M+15 weekly / GV

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This fine example of your friends buy tokens to get AOTC to safely get invited in pugs is in fact a pay to win mechanism. (also a pay to play due to how toxic is the pug community)

Yep, pretty much. Its very hard to get into groups if you lack certain achivs and/or have low scores. Its especially a shit situation if you have just returned to the game.

[Lochton]

Mythic Sylvanas cost 9.5 milion atm so like 650€/$
So I guess he is talking about Heroic Sylvanas like every other AOTC

Btw an infamous pay to win example


SPEND SOME GEMS TO RUSH THE BUILDING!
No unique item, use currency to skip time.

Same as tokens in wow to skip mythic progression or weeks of M+ declined

But.. This is not the same as the token?

You buy the generated gems from the developer to gain the advantage?

What you buy from Blizzard, is currency/token to then trade with a player to gain gold on a supply/demand operated market. The developers are not generating anything for you, another person is.

What I'm talking about, is the P2W I know off, where the winning, the advantage, the bonus, the benefit, is all generated by the developer, pulled out of nothing, not another person playing.

[Dioporco]

Last week, Mythic Sylvanas was given away for free on Argent Dawn EU by some because they could. Heroic is more often, and of course, cheaper.

Ok 1 guild of 783 that kills Sylvanas weekly nobody gives it freely every week, even if it is a RP server.

[Lochton]

It has already been explained :


Gold -> M+ / Mythic Carry = Boosting then there is a "if" switch regarding how that Gold is obtained, after farming for months? or buying tokens? There is the difference.

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You didnt look into very well then, because pay to win games ARE NOT 100% "buy the op item from the shop" and there are plenty of them in the mobile scenario.


Literally any EA sports game with cards is pay to win + gambler

What mobile game demands you to interact with another player to gain your benefit/advantage/bonus/winning moment?

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Ok 1 guild of 783 that kills Sylvanas weekly nobody gives it freely every week, even if it is a RP server.

Didn't say every week, I stated I just recently saw a guild offering it for free on Argent Dawn EU trade channel, nothing more was stated.

[Dioporco]

But.. This is not the same as the token?

You buy the generated gems from the developer to gain the advantage?

What you buy from Blizzard, is currency/token to then trade with a player to gain gold on a supply/demand operated market. The developers are not generating anything for you, another person is.

What I'm talking about, is the P2W I know off, where the winning, the advantage, the bonus, the benefit, is all generated by the developer, pulled out of nothing, not another person playing.

Why you keep reading what you want in my post? You buy generated gold from devs from another player that farmed it or bought. ??

the P2W I know off, where the winning, the advantage, the bonus, the benefit, is all generated by the developer, pulled out of nothing, not another person playing.

You knew wrongly because I showed you how variegated can be the pay to win mechanism and how the definition doesnt state that must be 101% generated by the developer so no cash shop where you can buy Dominion Socket with $$$ but still if you use $$$ to buy Gold and then buy Dominion Socket from AH (for example even if isnt possible) that is the same thing with extra step.

Also even the skip is a pay to win so char boosting to 50/60 is pay to win compared to people levelling.

What mobile game demands you to interact with another player to gain your benefit/advantage/bonus/winning moment?
Didn't say every week, I stated I just recently saw a guild offering it for free on Argent Dawn EU trade channel, nothing more was stated.

Any mobile game since all have : Ladders PvE / PvP / Arena with HUGE REWARDS for begin Top 100 / 50 / 10 / 3 World

[Raelbo]

thank you, i dont know why they are so resistant to call it pay to win when it so obvious it is

Because we're informed as to what p2w actually is, and we have the analytical ability to recognise that the token is something different. People who think it is "so obvious" that tokens are p2w are simply ignorant.

haha not pay to win just made my character and boosted it to 60 haha not pay to win

Blizzard's character boost is to level 50. I had 7 characters at level 50 (was 120 back then before the squish) 3 years ago. How exactly do you think you are "winning" here? I mean I am happy to be somewhat flexible with the definition of winning, but to suggest that getting to 50 now makes you a winner is ridiculous.

haha patch just came out and i bought 5 tokens to get raid boe drops before ever doing the raid haha not pay to win

haha patch just came out and i just bought the first few boe drops from the AH using the millions of gold I made during the last patch cycle while you were still waiting for your tokens to sell on the AH. Don't worry, I am sure more boes will arrive on the AH soon, although you'll need to be on your toes to buy them because you're competing with literally hundreds of other players who have loads more gold than your $100 got for you. Oh, and I also bought your tokens at a nice discount so I can pay for free for 6 months. Thanks! (loser, lol)

haha i just bought tokens to get carried to glad title haha it was my skill i didn't pay for it!

I could do the same with aforementioned millions of gold I made by just being semi-competent at the game. But why would I? Seems a bit hollow and pathetic tbh to get someone else to carry me (which isn't p2w btw). Nah, I'd rather use my gold to buy a few more tokens and get some nifty things of the Blizzard shop. Thanks again (loser hahaha)

[Dioporco]

Because we're informed as to what p2w actually is, and we have the analytical ability to recognise that the token is something different. People who think it is "so obvious" that tokens are p2w are simply ignorant.

Reading the last 20 pages, I only see that people doesn't know what pay to win means.

The fact that people thought was ONLY like paying 20€ on shop to get Thunderfuy 2.0 and winning PvE and PvP when isn't really, it speaks volume about gaming knowledge here...

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If Blizzard decide to ban boosting in any form then the pay to win in WoW will be limited to any 8.3 system with corruptions on BoE.
And then people with cash can buy tokens to buy BoE that gives insane advantage.

Just like Echo did in 8.3 buying all the BoE in EU and getting money from Gallywix, that is pay to win.
And you can't say otherwise unless you want to derail the convo.


But since Blizzard isn't doing anything regarding boost is the smoking gun that show us they know how boosting + tokens = profit

And how it is the safest and cleanest pay to win without begin blatantly pay to win