Poll: Was Sylvanas a good warchief?

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  1. #121
    She managed to out-evil Blackhand.

    Not even her loyalists were safe from getting screwed over and abandoned. Not even Nathanos.

    Her goals would have annihilated the Alliance and Horde. At least in Garrosh's psychotic fantasies, The [Old God Corrupted] Horde take over the world.
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2021-10-20 at 02:42 AM.
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    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  2. #122
    Speaking of, anyone think Nathanos is still coming back into the picture?

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Speaking of, anyone think Nathanos is still coming back into the picture?
    he most likely is just going to turn into a dead_soul_to_the_maw #4342434 and I doubt any Mawsworn would recognize him
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The thing is, again, with her revealed motivations recruiting the ARs probably didn't have the goal of strengthening the Horde but just of throwing more bodies into the Maw. The end result might have helped the Horde longer term but that wasn't her goal and that's what we're judging.
    Yeah, that's why my answer was a big no in the end.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The thing is, again, with her revealed motivations recruiting the ARs probably didn't have the goal of strengthening the Horde but just of throwing more bodies into the Maw. The end result might have helped the Horde longer term but that wasn't her goal and that's what we're judging.
    As I mentioned to @Lorgar Aurelian re: Orgrim if you rate the Warchiefs based on the Horde's in-story end state you'd end up with a weird sorting order, a little like this:

    6. Orgrim - When he lost, the Horde was effectively eliminated as a political player and the orcs were largely stragglers or put into camps. He neither lastingly expanded in allies, since the Amani, dragons and death knights didn't stick around, nor in territory as the end reach of the Horde extended to the Frostwolves' place in Alterac and they weren't even under his command.

    5. Vol'jin - Net zero. No pain, no gain.

    4. Sylvanas - She left expanding the Horde by several races and depending on what type of dope the writers were on at that patch, either winning the war or having exhausted every side's resources. But territorially she lost a capital city and several outlying territories the Horde already had. If we reduce the zones acquired - Highmountain, Suramar, the three in Zandalar and quantum Ashenvale from those lost - Tirisfal, Arathi, large parts of Hillsbrad and Silverpine, then she comes out with extremely narrow benefits.

    3. Garrosh - The largest territorial and influence expansion, keeping all of his post-war gains besides Ashenvale and making the orcs far more relevant even in defeat. In terms of net gains alone vis a vis a latter functional Horde, he'd be number 1, but with the caveat that the Alliance was more positioned to fight the Horde after his loss than it was after Sylvanas' tenure and that while he was handed a barely functional coalition that he managed to briefly beat into shape and fortify, he was still handed something at all, unlike...

    2. Thrall - Started with Orgrim's band of orcs and depressives, expanded it by four races and across another continent under his tenure and occupied a large amount of territory without too many outside threats. All the problems of what he left behind were long term ones - a resource-deprived main race, allies who didn't actually have all that much in common with them, etc. but these are all moot as compared to the extent of what he made. He re-established the Horde, structures and all. But someone else established it and also left behind a war machine worth of completely united henchmen, ready to take the world by storm. Someone who's Sylvanas/Gul'dan equivalent never betrayed or undermined them.

    1. Blackhand - Formed the Horde, established hegemony over all of Draenor by killling everyone else there. Bulldozed Stormwind and left scores of clans that Orgrim was then able to use to not only have Orgrim plausibly contest all of Azeroth, but the reserve force of which that Ner'zhul took over was still a formidable force. He began with literally nothing and ended up laying the scene for everything else. His institutions stood the test of time until Sylvanas and despite being Gul'dan's henchman, he managed to make himself irreplaceable to Gul'dan and keep him on his side by virtue of his presence, as a successor, like Orgrim, would not be reliably on his side.

    RIP Blackhand, we'll never see your like again.
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  6. #126
    No. She was a useless narcissistic leader that only saw people to be used towards her nefarious agenda.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    6. Orgrim - When he lost, the Horde was effectively eliminated as a political player and the orcs were largely stragglers or put into camps. He neither lastingly expanded in allies, since the Amani, dragons and death knights didn't stick around, nor in territory as the end reach of the Horde extended to the Frostwolves' place in Alterac and they weren't even under his command.

    5. Vol'jin - Net zero. No pain, no gain.
    I'd personally swap that and put Vol'jin in last because he actually appointed Sylvanas into power. Had he just died and said nothing, it would have been better off letting the rest of the Horde decide upon a leader and avoid the fiasco that followed, but his appointing of Sylvanas solidified her legitimacy as Warchief and all the bullshit that followed. So it's not Net zero at all, it's way worse than that since he set up the Horde to fail.

    And even if he was tricked into it, it's still his responsibility as a leader to not allow himself to be tricked by listening to random spirits from another realm that really no one should be trusting for leadership advice in the first place. I mean, haven't we learned enough from the old horde about this shit?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-10-20 at 06:40 AM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    *Cough* Vindicaar *Cough*
    you mean the spaceship that barely did a small hole in antorus? the one that all resources and power were used to deal with the Legion? that one?

    But on a slightly more serious note, the Alliance wouldn't ever really want to dismantle the Horde, lest they be stuck with the WC2 situation of a bunch of scattered Horde races finding some young upstart who unites and leads them back into 'former glory'. The best they could ever achieve is putting in a puppet leader and manipulating them from the inside. Exactly what the Jailer did with Vol'jin appointing Sylvanas as Warchief.

    The alternative is literal genocide, and that didn't even work out for the Horde destroying the Draenei since they ended up coming back into the story in full force and part of 'the enemy'.
    they can't do neither of those options either.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you mean the spaceship that barely did a small hole in antorus? the one that all resources and power were used to deal with the Legion? that one?
    Yes. Which is enough to decimate a capital city, considering what a few catapults could achieve.

    they can't do neither of those options either.
    Not with the current writers, no.

  10. #130
    Considering the forsaken shouldn't be in the Horde to begin with, no, she was not a good warchief.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    So, I argue with fanboy of Sylvanas and he proves to me that she is the best warchief, so I decided to find out what the Horde players think about it. Do you think Sylvanas was actually a good warchief for the Horde? We will not discuss her personality, whether she was good or evil, or what she thought of the Horde and that she actually worked for the Jailer. It's just that, looking at her ACTIONS, you would say that she has done much more good for the Horde than harm and has she accomplished more for the Horde than the previous leaders?
    Could have been good, turned out to be very bad. Left the Horde in a besieged and effectively surrendering state yet again.

    Also sacrificed the remnants of her navy (as well as parts of the alliance navy) to the naga in order to free N'zoth and create yet more bloodshed.

    And i mean it's partially through poor storytelling, but she did lose literally all great battles (Darkshore, Arathi, battle of Zuldazar) despite supposedly whittling down the forces of the alliance off-screen.

    So no, she wasn't a good warchief and the horde has suffered greatly under her leadership.
    Perhaps sufficiently so that it will think twice about centralized leadership, and genuinely lead-by-council.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you mean the spaceship that barely did a small hole in antorus? the one that all resources and power were used to deal with the Legion? that one?
    Sorry, I think I missed the moment when the Horde became comparable in power to the Legion so that the Vindicaar did not seem a threat to them.

  13. #133
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes. Which is enough to decimate a capital city, considering what a few catapults could achieve.
    you mean it could open a gate maybe, and by your own words, they can just knock from the skies with the catapults

    Not with the current writers, no.
    this is beyond writers, the alliance don't have the capacity and man power to do so, the current writers are actually the ones that make the alliance look more than what it is

    i think everyone have a short memory here, cause everyone forget how the alliance was in the brick of losing the war back i MOP with Garrosh without the full horde support. The horde had to stop Garry and the alliance just helped because they would be fucked otherwise, plus, Horde still maintain most of its power suffering losses most from the clans that Garrosh bring back in cataclysm(blackrock+dragonmaw)

    Then come Legion and Alliance is the main faction expending more resources and man power to deal with, plus the fiasco with broken shore.

    They got the upperhand in the beginning of BfA but the power shift once again making then even, its bananas to think the alliance could do anything even with Tolkien writing, they simple can't do what you say here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Sorry, I think I missed the moment when the Horde became comparable in power to the Legion so that the Vindicaar did not seem a threat to them.
    bring tht huge space ship to open a gate from a capital city and they can knock it down

    i don't know how people think that shit is an auto-win.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you mean it could open a gate maybe, and by your own words, they can just knock from the skies with the catapults


    this is beyond writers, the alliance don't have the capacity and man power to do so, the current writers are actually the ones that make the alliance look more than what it is

    i think everyone have a short memory here, cause everyone forget how the alliance was in the brick of losing the war back i MOP with Garrosh without the full horde support. The horde had to stop Garry and the alliance just helped because they would be fucked otherwise, plus, Horde still maintain most of its power suffering losses most from the clans that Garrosh bring back in cataclysm(blackrock+dragonmaw)

    Then come Legion and Alliance is the main faction expending more resources and man power to deal with, plus the fiasco with broken shore.

    They got the upperhand in the beginning of BfA but the power shift once again making then even, its bananas to think the alliance could do anything even with Tolkien writing, they simple can't do what you say here.

    - - - Updated - - -



    bring tht huge space ship to open a gate from a capital city and they can knock it down

    i don't know how people think that shit is an auto-win.
    I think you have a memory problem because Garrosh captured the magnataurs to try and defeat the Alliance in Ashenvale and still lost. Garrosh attacked the blue dragons and used a mana bomb to destroy the Theramore, it wasn't just an Alliance versus Horde battle, and then Garrosh used the Heart of the Old God and teamed up with the Mantids. Even so, Varian says that they agree to team up with Vol'jin because otherwise the Alliance will lose too many lives in confrontation with Garrosh, not that they will be fucked. So maybe you won't be making it up? Yes, they stopped winning in Bfa as soon as Azshara intervened. Again, not because of the Horde's actions, just Azshara. So where do the writers make the Alliance in Bfa look stronger if they're doing everything they can to keep the Horde alive at all?


    Again, I missed something, but does the Horde have the same powerful fel cannons as the Legion to bring it down? And my guess is that if he is over the Horde capital at that time, he will fall on it and still cause damage.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    I think you have a memory problem because Garrosh captured the magnataurs to try and defeat the Alliance in Ashenvale and still lost.
    lost because deus ex machian power of friendship with Varian coming with wild god poeers, without that they would screwed.
    Garrosh attacked the blue dragons and used a mana bomb to destroy the Theramore, it wasn't just an Alliance versus Horde battle, and then Garrosh used the Heart of the Old God and teamed up with the Mantids.
    irrelevant to the point made, have nothing to do with what was being discussed

    Even so, Varian says that they agree to team up with Vol'jin because otherwise the Alliance will lose too many lives in confrontation with Garrosh, not that they will be fucked. So maybe you won't be making it up?
    ah yes, because they would lose to many lives, sure

    Garrosh could only be defeated by the two factions, period.

    Yes, they stopped winning in Bfa as soon as Azshara intervened. Again, not because of the Horde's actions, just Azshara. So where do the writers make the Alliance in Bfa look stronger if they're doing everything they can to keep the Horde alive at all?
    It was all a plan from Sylvanus anyway, funny that you bring "it was just azshara" but bring ashenvale that was "just goldrin"

    mind you, if sylvanas had stick to the plan and conquered darnasus they would win, so yeah, that was where the writers coming in

    Again, I missed something, but does the Horde have the same powerful fel cannons as the Legion to bring it down? And my guess is that if he is over the Horde capital at that time, he will fall on it and still cause damage.
    why bother with fel canons when you have the catapults that destroyed Teldrasil? you thhink that flying bathtub have a chance?

    the spaceship can't destroy a city, period, even if does, its just like inviting nuclear warfare, manaboms would be back, the canon in azshara would nuke stormwind and the world would be fucked.

    You can even bring enemy hostages as shield against the spaceship, again, it would be a whole different lv of warfare.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    lost because deus ex machian power of friendship with Varian coming with wild god poeers, without that they would screwed.


    irrelevant to the point made, have nothing to do with what was being discussed



    ah yes, because they would lose to many lives, sure

    Garrosh could only be defeated by the two factions, period.



    It was all a plan from Sylvanus anyway, funny that you bring "it was just azshara" but bring ashenvale that was "just goldrin"

    mind you, if sylvanas had stick to the plan and conquered darnasus they would win, so yeah, that was where the writers coming in



    why bother with fel canons when you have the catapults that destroyed Teldrasil? you thhink that flying bathtub have a chance?

    the spaceship can't destroy a city, period, even if does, its just like inviting nuclear warfare, manaboms would be back, the canon in azshara would nuke stormwind and the world would be fucked.

    You can even bring enemy hostages as shield against the spaceship, again, it would be a whole different lv of warfare.
    Memory problems. They are not. Varian was blessed by Goldrinn and thus defeated Garrosh in a duel, but the battle was already lost and Garrosh knew it. Also, complaining that the worgen helped the Alliance is like complaining that the goblins helped the Horde.

    No, you say that the Horde is great and cool, I say that the Horde cannot defeat the Alliance in a normal war without using other people's artifacts

    Excuse me, I may not recognize you, Mr. Metzen is it you? Or Afrasiabi? At least Danuser? Since when do your words become canon of the last resort?

    Once again, Goldrinn personally blessed Varian rather than instantly turning all humans into worgen and Garrosh using the magnataurs. And yes, that was Sylvanas' plan because she made a deal with Azshara. Once again, the Horde has demonstrated that they cannot defeat the Alliance without seeking help from some evil force. How would they win? It also amuses me that what if. What if Malfurion remembers his exploits from the War of the Ancients and destroys the Horde? What if Malfurion kills Sylvanas? What if Saurfang doesn't find a cave that the Night Elves didn't know about, even though they've lived there for 10,000 years?

    Ah, now you're just trying to troll, you should have read the last sentence right away and not write this huge text. Again, you are trying to pass your fantasies off as canon. You are not a Blizzard employee, you know? You can't just say a spaceship can't destroy a city, period and hope people just agree. In disputes, evidence must be provided. Mana bombs? Oh yes, the Alliance will tremble with fear when firing from the spaceship. Or do you think that blue dragons will give up their artifacts again?
    Ahahahahphwahpawhp, I am very amused how people remember the cannon in Azshara, even though it has never shown anything. Goblins BELIEVE they can destroy Stormwind, but goblin technology doesn't always work perfectly, you know.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    I think you have a memory problem because Garrosh captured the magnataurs to try and defeat the Alliance in Ashenvale and still lost. Garrosh attacked the blue dragons and used a mana bomb to destroy the Theramore, it wasn't just an Alliance versus Horde battle, and then Garrosh used the Heart of the Old God and teamed up with the Mantids. Even so, Varian says that they agree to team up with Vol'jin because otherwise the Alliance will lose too many lives in confrontation with Garrosh, not that they will be fucked. So maybe you won't be making it up? Yes, they stopped winning in Bfa as soon as Azshara intervened. Again, not because of the Horde's actions, just Azshara. So where do the writers make the Alliance in Bfa look stronger if they're doing everything they can to keep the Horde alive at all?
    This is just more of your patent nonsense. The only way in which Theramore wasn't just an Alliance versus Horde battle would be because there were neutrals aiding the Alliance. Including the only member of the Blue Dragonflight participating in the conflict, for that matter. Garrosh didn't team up with the dragons. He stole a magical artifact from them and ordered the very much Horde Blood Elves to construct a bomb. All the while being completely hush-hush how the Alliance used it as well, just ineffectively.

    Also, your attempt to disassociate the Horde allies from the Horde still don't work. It's the Warchief's prerogative to team up with whomever they please and them doing so doesn't magically make it not the Horde's strategy. By your lol-logic the Second War wasn't just the Alliance and the Horde either because the Horde teamed up with the Amani and actually got dragons fighting for them at the time.

    Meanwhile in the real world neither the Focusing Iris nor Azshara just stumbled their way into helping the Horde by accident. Both were results of an effort by the Warchief of the Horde. Making the claim that it wasn't because of Horde's actions a blatant lie. Especially since you're still willfully ignoring that it was Nathanos that lured the Alliance into Azshara's trap. Because your argument is weak beyond human recognition and you know it. That's why you have to repeatedly prop it up with fallacious nonsense so intense it makes 80% of the content of your posts.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Again, I missed something, but does the Horde have the same powerful fel cannons as the Legion to bring it down? And my guess is that if he is over the Horde capital at that time, he will fall on it and still cause damage.
    The Xenedar was taken down by a single demon, not Fel cannons. And the Exodar was crashed by a bunch of Blood Elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Once again, Goldrinn personally blessed Varian rather than instantly turning all humans into worgen and Garrosh using the magnataurs. And yes, that was Sylvanas' plan because she made a deal with Azshara. Once again, the Horde has demonstrated that they cannot defeat the Alliance without seeking help from some evil force. How would they win? It also amuses me that what if. What if Malfurion remembers his exploits from the War of the Ancients and destroys the Horde? What if Malfurion kills Sylvanas? What if Saurfang doesn't find a cave that the Night Elves didn't know about, even though they've lived there for 10,000 years?
    The funny thing about this battle is that you even if you take your deflection about Goldrinn at face value you still shot yourself in the foot without even knowing it. Showing that you do indeed have a memory problem pertaining to this issue. Because the Worgen were readmitted to the Alliance only after the fight. Meaning that the Alliance had to rely on a non-Alliance party to win that fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by darkoms View Post
    Ah, now you're just trying to troll, you should have read the last sentence right away and not write this huge text. Again, you are trying to pass your fantasies off as canon. You are not a Blizzard employee, you know? You can't just say a spaceship can't destroy a city, period and hope people just agree. In disputes, evidence must be provided. Mana bombs? Oh yes, the Alliance will tremble with fear when firing from the spaceship. Or do you think that blue dragons will give up their artifacts again?
    Ahahahahphwahpawhp, I am very amused how people remember the cannon in Azshara, even though it has never shown anything. Goblins BELIEVE they can destroy Stormwind, but goblin technology doesn't always work perfectly, you know.
    And this is just double standard on your part. Goblin cannon in Azshara? It has never shown anything. Vindicaar cannon has only shown opening a tiny hole in a wall? We've got a destroyer of worlds right there ladies and gentlemen, no questions asked. And it's funny how you're lecturing @Syegfryed about expecting people to just agree when you're the one that's making a positive claim about the damn thing here.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-10-20 at 11:03 AM.
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  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    This is just more of your patent nonsense. The only way in which Theramore wasn't just an Alliance versus Horde battle would be because there were neutrals aiding the Alliance. Including the only member of the Blue Dragonflight participating in the conflict, for that matter. Garrosh didn't team up with the dragons. He stole a magical artifact from them and ordered the very much Horde Blood Elves to construct a bomb. All the while being completely hush-hush how the Alliance used it as well, just ineffectively.

    Also, your attempt to disassociate the Horde allies from the Horde still don't work. It's the Warchief's prerogative to team up with whomever they please and them doing so doesn't magically make it not the Horde's strategy. By your lol-logic the Second War wasn't just the Alliance and the Horde either because the Horde teamed up with the Amani and actually got dragons fighting for them at the time.

    Meanwhile in the real world neither the Focusing Iris nor Azshara just stumbled their way into helping the Horde by accident. Both were results of an effort by the Warchief of the Horde. Making the claim that it wasn't because of Horde's actions a blatant lie. Especially since you're still willfully ignoring that it was Nathanos that lured the Alliance into Azshara's trap. Because your argument is weak beyond human recognition and you know it. That's why you have to repeatedly prop it up with fallacious nonsense so intense it makes 80% of the content of your posts.




    The Xenedar was taken down by a single demon, not Fel cannons. And the Exodar was crashed by a bunch of Blood Elves.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The funny thing about this battle is that you even if you take your deflection about Goldrinn at face value you still shot yourself in the foot without even knowing it. Showing that you do indeed have a memory problem pertaining to this issue. Because the Worgen were readmitted to the Alliance only after the fight. Meaning that the Alliance had to rely on a non-Alliance party to win that fight.




    And this is just double standard on your part. Goblin cannon in Azshara? It has never shown anything. Vindicaar cannon has only shown opening a tiny hole in a wall? We've got a destroyer of worlds right there ladies and gentlemen, no questions asked. And it's funny how you're lecturing @Syegfryed about expecting people to just agree when you're the one that's making a positive claim about the damn thing here.
    You know, watching you argue i got a question.

    So, if Horde is that insurmountable juggernaut of raw power, impenetrable in its thiccness and unconquerable in its supreme military might…

    Then what is the reason in playing Alliance? What is the “hook” that supposed to provide that reason to choose a faction? Why should anybody pick Alliance at all if its not only in a dying stage of PvE, idk about PvP and absolutely inferior, “paper tiger” in lore?

    What is the method of retaining and gaining ANY players to Alliance?

    I mean, if Horde is such a megalodon of Azerothian sea, then by all means, have the whole tub and enjoy. I for one gave up playing in 8.1 because NOBODY wants to play a whipping boy or a punching bag.

    Not my kink. And if i ever want to be stepped on i can as well visit a more… specialised establishments or sites.

    Sad thing nobody informed me that i was picking not only the punching bag faction but also a race that will be absolutely cucked in nearly every expansion. But then again, it is all my fault for not being able to see the future back in Lich and NOT pick Alliance and night elves as my main choice.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'd personally swap that and put Vol'jin in last because he actually appointed Sylvanas into power. Had he just died and said nothing, it would have been better off letting the rest of the Horde decide upon a leader and avoid the fiasco that followed, but his appointing of Sylvanas solidified her legitimacy as Warchief and all the bullshit that followed. So it's not Net zero at all, it's way worse than that since he set up the Horde to fail.

    And even if he was tricked into it, it's still his responsibility as a leader to not allow himself to be tricked by listening to random spirits from another realm that really no one should be trusting for leadership advice in the first place. I mean, haven't we learned enough from the old horde about this shit?
    There's something to be said about Sylvanas failing even at failure, since she contributed more to the Horde as Warchief than Vol'jin did despite making it her objective to fail. His decision in any case didn't really have much impact on the end state of the Horde at the time of his death. The territorial holdings of the Horde and its composition were the same before and after. Even just incorporating the Zandalari constitutes a net benefit that Vol'jin didn't do. If anything, him appointing her over keeping his gob shut and letting any of the other eunuchs take the reins is the unquestionable triumph of his entire tenure since while deliberately attempting to screw over her constituents she still was more effectively diplomatic than her successors, see Baine making a dog's breakfast out of incorporating the vulpera. The only thing it would have accomplished is leaving us to the BFA end state of a Horde consisting entirely of dickless appeasers one expansion earlier, except without Talanji and Geyarah to soften the blow, though with the benefit of Gallywix.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-10-20 at 10:57 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Mostly irrelevant, since Sylvanas contributed more to the Horde than he did despite making it her objective to fail and because it didn't really have much impact on the end state of the Horde at the time of his death. The territorial holdings of the Horde and its composition were the same before and after. Even just incorporating the Zandalari constitutes a net benefit that Vol'jin didn't do. If anything, him appointing her over keeping his gob shut and letting any of the other eunuchs take the reins is the unquestionable triumph of his entire tenure since while deliberately attempting to screw over her constituents she still was more effectively diplomatic than her successors, see Baine making a dog's breakfast out of incorporating the vulpera.

    There's something to be said about Sylvanas failing even at failure.
    Also good to see you , just wondered if you would notice the comment i left. Go on, throw some input in.

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