Was Sylvanas a good warchief?

[Super Dickmann]

Also good to see you , just wondered if you would notice the comment i left. Go on, throw some input in.

Which one?

Edit: Saw. @Mehrunes is an obvious Horde partisan and picks no bones about it, much like @darkoms obviously has his own preference as regards both Sylvanas and the Horde. Obviously the crux of his argument is centered on how the Horde is superior, with a focus on the contrivances that benefitted the Alliance. I agree more with his arguments and I find them better reasoned, but basing your consumption of the franchise on what an opposing partisan says is asinine. It'd be like if I got an existential crisis after reading one too many of @Val the Moofia Boss's posts about the Alliance occupational government and their n+1 number of spaceships.

The factions, at least as originally envisioned and occasionally depicted are, while not made to be equal power-wise are definitely made to be comparable in output and the main races have an extra benefit attached. Stormwind got sacked and depopulated to the extent where the only populatino was able to hide in the sewers in WC1, and yet in WoW they are a powerhouse easily ahead of all others. Thrall's Horde in WC3 consisted of 3 ships and yet there's never been a single time past WC3 where the orcs haven't been cast as a plausible opposition to the night elves, a continent-spanning empire.

[darkoms]

This is just more of your patent nonsense. The only way in which Theramore wasn't just an Alliance versus Horde battle would be because there were neutrals aiding the Alliance. Including the only member of the Blue Dragonflight participating in the conflict, for that matter. Garrosh didn't team up with the dragons. He stole a magical artifact from them and ordered the very much Horde Blood Elves to construct a bomb. All the while being completely hush-hush how the Alliance used it as well, just ineffectively.

Also, your attempt to disassociate the Horde allies from the Horde still don't work. It's the Warchief's prerogative to team up with whomever they please and them doing so doesn't magically make it not the Horde's strategy. By your lol-logic the Second War wasn't just the Alliance and the Horde either because the Horde teamed up with the Amani and actually got dragons fighting for them at the time.

Meanwhile in the real world neither the Focusing Iris nor Azshara just stumbled their way into helping the Horde by accident. Both were results of an effort by the Warchief of the Horde. Making the claim that it wasn't because of Horde's actions a blatant lie. Especially since you're still willfully ignoring that it was Nathanos that lured the Alliance into Azshara's trap. Because your argument is weak beyond human recognition and you know it. That's why you have to repeatedly prop it up with fallacious nonsense so intense it makes 80% of the content of your posts.




The Xenedar was taken down by a single demon, not Fel cannons. And the Exodar was crashed by a bunch of Blood Elves.




The funny thing about this battle is that you even if you take your deflection about Goldrinn at face value you still shot yourself in the foot without even knowing it. Showing that you do indeed have a memory problem pertaining to this issue. Because the Worgen were readmitted to the Alliance only after the fight. Meaning that the Alliance had to rely on a non-Alliance party to win that fight.




And this is just double standard on your part. Goblin cannon in Azshara? It has never shown anything. Vindicaar cannon has only shown opening a tiny hole in a wall? We've got a destroyer of worlds right there ladies and gentlemen, no questions asked. And it's funny how you're lecturing @Syegfryed about expecting people to just agree when you're the one that's making a positive claim about the damn thing here.

Can you stop writing nonsense? It hurts me with my lore knowledge to read this. The Horde has attacked the blue dragons and are you unhappy that one blue dragon decided to help the Alliance? Marvelous. I said that Garrosh attacked the blue dragons, I did not say that they were united. What? Did the Alliance use a mana bomb against cities? Or do you mean an artifact? Because Jaina eventually changed her mind about destroying Orgrimmar and saved the Alliance fleet from the Kraken, which the Horde subjugated (again, the Horde cannot win a normal war and uses other creatures).

The problem is that the Horde did not unite with them, but subdued them because they could not defeat the Alliance in a regular war, when both factions use only their own forces. And yes, by subduing the dragons, the Horde has shown that it cannot defeat on its own.

I did not say that these were random events, I said that both leaders of the Horde understood that they had no chance in a war against the Alliance without the use of outside forces.

Oh yes, it was Antaen. My bad. Only the top of his head was shown and I thought it was a weapon. Anyway, I don't remember the Horde having such things. Please stop writing nonsense. The Exodar was defeated upon landing, and the blood elves were already inside, sabotaging the ship. They didn't pierce it outside with their magic or techonology.


I know that the worgen were accepted into the Alliance after the battle if you would stop trying to catch me (seriously, you can't come to terms with how insignificant your knowledge is compared to mine and constantly try to point out that I'm talking nonsense or get confused by not giving no evidence) and rubbed their eyes after thousands of hours of watching rule 34 with Sylvanas, you would have noticed that I didn't say they were part of the Alliance at the time. They were practically a part of it, however, because Varian and Greymane had established a relationship after a good hunt. And I pointed out that Goldrinn only blessed Varian. He did not order the worgen to help, they themselves wanted it (unlike the magnataurs who were subjugated) to help the Alliance (so that later to join it, proving to Varian that they were worthy of it) and I already indicated that this was a counterpunuk to the magnataurs.


I mean, the Vindicaar cannon showed at least something and it pierced the most important building, you know, LEGION. Why does it seem to me that the Legion can build better than the Horde? Also forgive me that I believe in the weapons of the glowing super soldiers more than the weapons of the goblins, which tend to explode. I mean, the Azerite tank of the Horde was made according to the blueprints for the Azerite tank of the Alliance, and in the starting chain of the Horde there is this quest where the goblin admits that he does not know how his thing works.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Re-...uation_(Horde)

And wasn't that the point? Create a small hole for a group of heroes to enter Antorus and kill the top of the Legion? A full-scale siege would be suicide. Sorry what? I understand that Sylvanas's fans have the same brains as hers, but can you please explain your last sentence to me? What the hell am I saying positively about, and how does this relate to the fact that Sergithied passes off his fantasies as 100% canon? He just writes ''Vindicaar couldn't do it, period'', as if he has quotes from all the books, comics, manga and Blizzard words from all their interviews and twitter at the same time, not just his personal fantasies about the almighty Horde.

[Super Dickmann]

Can you stop writing nonsense? It hurts me with my lore knowledge to read this. The Horde has attacked the blue dragons and are you unhappy that one blue dragon decided to help the Alliance? Marvelous. I said that Garrosh attacked the blue dragons, I did not say that they were united. What? Did the Alliance use a mana bomb against cities? Or do you mean an artifact? Because Jaina eventually changed her mind about destroying Orgrimmar and saved the Alliance fleet from the Kraken, which the Horde subjugated (again, the Horde cannot win a normal war and uses other creatures).

The problem is that the Horde did not unite with them, but subdued them because they could not defeat the Alliance in a regular war, when both factions use only their own forces. And yes, by subduing the dragons, the Horde has shown that it cannot defeat on its own.

The Horde attacked an unrelated party and then another member of that party joined the Alliance in the defense of Theramore (without knowing the Horde did it I stress). But Theramore as a whole got backing from Dalaran, Shattrath, etc. i.e neutral factions teamed up with it although it was involved in war with the Horde for the last two years. Even then, Garrosh was always able to take the city by storm, this is brought up in the book itself. He opted not to do so because it was more practical for him to let as many high value targets as possible gather in there, cut off the pathways of retreat, and then nuke them from orbit. The only reason Jaina didn't get nuked as well is because Rhonin, the leader of the ostensibly neutral Kirin Tor, got in the way to save her. The survival of any Alliance at all hinges on neutral parties defending Theramore with them as otherwise everyone'd be nuked. By contrast, the Horde has the Focusing Iris because they killed those who had it, the actual assault consisted entirely of Horde forces.

In any case, Jaina uses it five minutes later and it's not that she changes her mind about drowning Orgrimmar it's that she sends the wave to do so twice and Thrall stops her. It's only on the last go around that she changes her mind.

Regarding the Vindicaar, it's most impressive feats have been melting an evil wall and an identical ship was taken down by the shot of some nameless fodder demon who is never mentioned before or after, which is why the spaceship wank has always baffled me.

[darkoms]

The Horde attacked an unrelated party and then another member of that party joined the Alliance in the defense of Theramore (without knowing the Horde did it I stress). But Theramore as a whole got backing from Dalaran, Shattrath, etc. i.e neutral factions teamed up with it although it was involved in war with the Horde for the last two years. Even then, Garrosh was always able to take the city by storm, this is brought up in the book itself. He opted not to do so because it was more practical for him to let as many high value targets as possible gather in there, cut off the pathways of retreat, and then nuke them from orbit. The only reason Jaina didn't get nuked as well is because Rhonin, the leader of the ostensibly neutral Kirin Tor, got in the way to save her. The survival of any Alliance at all hinges on neutral parties defending Theramore with them as otherwise everyone'd be nuked. By contrast, the Horde has the Focusing Iris because they killed those who had it, the actual assault consisted entirely of Horde forces.

In any case, Jaina uses it five minutes later and it's not that she changes her mind about drowning Orgrimmar it's that she sends the wave to do so twice and Thrall stops her. It's only on the last go around that she changes her mind.

Regarding the Vindicaar, it's most impressive feats have been melting an evil wall and an identical ship was taken down by the shot of some nameless fodder demon who is never mentioned before or after, which is why the spaceship wank has always baffled me.

I think it's not strange that all the power of the Horde can easily destroy one small neutral city, so I don't see anything strange in the fact that Jaina asks for help from other neutrals and the Alliance. Because at that time, Jaina was definitely not a member of the Alliance. I would be fine if he just ordered the use of blight, at least it really is a Horde weapon.

And yet she changed her mind. Thrall no longer had the strength to contain her and Kalec had to convince her not to do this and she used this to save the Alliance fleet from the Krakens.


I don't understand why people think that the Horde is equal to the Legion in military power and that the Horde can shoot it down just as easily, or that the Horde's structures are as durable as the Legion's structures.

[VladlTutushkin]

Which one?

Edit: Saw. @Mehrunes is an obvious Horde partisan and picks no bones about it, much like @darkoms obviously has his own preference as regards both Sylvanas and the Horde. Obviously the crux of his argument is centered on how the Horde is superior, with a focus on the contrivances that benefitted the Alliance. I agree more with his arguments and I find them better reasoned, but basing your consumption of the franchise on what an opposing partisan says is asinine. It'd be like if I got an existential crisis after reading one too many of @Val the Moofia Boss's posts about the Alliance occupational government and their n+1 number of spaceships.

The factions, at least as originally envisioned and occasionally depicted are, while not made to be equal power-wise are definitely made to be comparable in output and the main races have an extra benefit attached. Stormwind got sacked and depopulated to the extent where the only populatino was able to hide in the sewers in WC1, and yet in WoW they are a powerhouse easily ahead of all others. Thrall's Horde in WC3 consisted of 3 ships and yet there's never been a single time past WC3 where the orcs haven't been cast as a plausible opposition to the night elves, a continent-spanning empire.

I mean horde's woes are being leashed back from more genocidal fun when Blizz realize that they cant REALLY let them destroy Alliance cause , y'know, show must go on. Then they eventually relapse back to writing wanking fanfiction about muscly orcs dominating pansy elves with long, thick appliances and cycle repeats itself.

Being an Alliance player is honestly the second worst experience in any game i played, second only to TF2 matches with sniper bots.

As i said - my biggest mistake about WoW was coming in at Lich and choosing Alliance, without having a gift of foresight or some insight info that faction will be put into some bizarre torture porn scenario every second expansion because devs cant contain their hardons.

- - - Updated - - -

The Horde attacked an unrelated party and then another member of that party joined the Alliance in the defense of Theramore (without knowing the Horde did it I stress). But Theramore as a whole got backing from Dalaran, Shattrath, etc. i.e neutral factions teamed up with it although it was involved in war with the Horde for the last two years. Even then, Garrosh was always able to take the city by storm, this is brought up in the book itself. He opted not to do so because it was more practical for him to let as many high value targets as possible gather in there, cut off the pathways of retreat, and then nuke them from orbit. The only reason Jaina didn't get nuked as well is because Rhonin, the leader of the ostensibly neutral Kirin Tor, got in the way to save her. The survival of any Alliance at all hinges on neutral parties defending Theramore with them as otherwise everyone'd be nuked. By contrast, the Horde has the Focusing Iris because they killed those who had it, the actual assault consisted entirely of Horde forces.

In any case, Jaina uses it five minutes later and it's not that she changes her mind about drowning Orgrimmar it's that she sends the wave to do so twice and Thrall stops her. It's only on the last go around that she changes her mind.

Regarding the Vindicaar, it's most impressive feats have been melting an evil wall and an identical ship was taken down by the shot of some nameless fodder demon who is never mentioned before or after, which is why the spaceship wank has always baffled me.

Also not drowning Orgrimmar was her biggest mistake in entire life. Even surpassing all that Warcraft 3 stuff.

And to spice it all up some extra - she later on spoke about Horde going for Teldrassil next and it was presented both "in meta" and "in character" as :ramblings of the insane" and yet look where we at right now.

Now Tyrande's talking about Horde inevitable chimpout are presented as "ramblings of the insane".

Its actual torture at this point.

[Super Dickmann]

I think it's not strange that all the power of the Horde can easily destroy one small neutral city, so I don't see anything strange in the fact that Jaina asks for help from other neutrals and the Alliance. Because at that time, Jaina was definitely not a member of the Alliance. I would be fine if he just ordered the use of blight, at least it really is a Horde weapon.

And yet she changed her mind. Thrall no longer had the strength to contain her and Kalec had to convince her not to do this and she used this to save the Alliance fleet from the Krakens..

Theramore has been involved in fighting the Horde for the entirety of Cataclysm, to the point of running out of troops and Theramore forces preceded both Garrosh being Warchief and the Shattering by taking Honor's Stand. It's about as neutral as Orgrimmar itself. The rest of the argument I don't follow - if the Horde could seize the weapon by force and deploy it what else is really needed? The mana bomb is a blood elven weapon, the only thing different about is the power source and given what we've seen of the mana bomb in Outland the only real difference is in the relative yield, with Kirin Var likely being comparable to Theramore.

Jaina did ultimately change her mind, but only after she'd already tried twice. If I shoot someone with a gun, but he's wearing a vest and I then give up on it, I still went through with attempted murder, outside factors just happened to stop me. In any case what I'm getting at is that both the Focusing Iris and the krakens were things that the Horde had to seize before hand in order to deploy.

The Horde doesn't need to be equal to the Legion in terms of firepower, the Legion has endless amounts of spaceships and if the demon down there hadn't taken down the Xenedar any number of other elements would have. The case is more that if a Legion demon of no particular consequence was able to take the Xenedar down with one shot, there's no reason the Horde shouldn't be able to take down a comparable ship, especially if it's the BFA-era Horde where both factions have access to Warcraft plutonium in azerite. The Horde doesn't need to have the Legion's strength to take it down, only equal to or more strength than a demon so irrelevant it receives no commentary before or after its singular scene.

I mean horde's woes are being leashed back from more genocidal fun when Blizz realize that they cant REALLY let them destroy Alliance cause , y'know, show must go on. Then they eventually relapse back to writing wanking fanfiction about muscly orcs dominating pansy elves with long, thick appliances and cycle repeats itself.

Being an Alliance player is honestly the second worst experience in any game i played, second only to TF2 matches with sniper bots.

As i said - my biggest mistake about WoW was coming in at Lich and choosing Alliance, without having a gift of foresight or some insight info that faction will be put into some bizarre torture porn scenario every second expansion because devs cant contain their hardons.

- - - Updated - - -
Also not drowning Orgrimmar was her biggest mistake in entire life. Even surpassing all that Warcraft 3 stuff.

And to spice it all up some extra - she later on spoke about Horde going for Teldrassil next and it was presented both "in meta" and "in character" as :ramblings of the insane" and yet look where we at right now.

Now Tyrande's talking about Horde inevitable chimpout are presented as "ramblings of the insane".

Its actual torture at this point.

Guilty as charged, I'd have enjoyed BFA exponentially more if I had the chance to actually be involved in all the bullshit the narrative spent all of my time whinging about anyway rather than killing my own faction in defense of the enemy while the NPCs hog all the fun. The main thing is that what the Alliance player sees of the Horde in BFA has jack to do with what the Horde player does. In the Alliance content you fight gleeful tards involved in the faction war enthusiastically and kill them, then have your guys tell you how fighting is wrong because the narrative is written by people who's conception of morality is out of whack in the way only western urban writers can be. In the Horde content in BFA you spend 90% of your time losing to the Alliance and the rest of the time killing your own dudes while they tell you about how they wish they were born blue, also for the same reason.

This has little stake in the actual content of the game either as initially envisioned or initially presented. The fact that Theramore and the like can even be debated whereas any talk of BFA comes with an asterisk of having to avoid all the contrivances is what stands out. As regards Jaina, the reasons you point out is why her BFA storyline remains the most overrated element of that expansion. It's entirely a Doylist construction existing because the writers want world peace. Her character, and indeed any character could not have organically reached the conclusions she did.

[Syegfryed]

Memory problems. They are not. Varian was blessed by Goldrinn and thus defeated Garrosh in a duel, but the battle was already lost and Garrosh knew it. Also, complaining that the worgen helped the Alliance is like complaining that the goblins helped the Horde.

thats the thing m8, Varian came with the power of an wild god, that means he was completely rested and powered up by goldrin against a garrosh who was fighting all day, much fair amright?

Varian coming out of nowhere and the worgens to help was an deus ex machina moment.

No, you say that the Horde is great and cool, I say that the Horde cannot defeat the Alliance in a normal war without using other people's artifacts

and this is factually wrong, you pretend like alliance don't use "artifacts" and other powers as well, mind you, the alliance only win something when the horde fight itself.

Excuse me, I may not recognize you, Mr. Metzen is it you? Or Afrasiabi? At least Danuser? Since when do your words become canon of the last resort?

pot meet kettle

Once again, Goldrinn personally blessed Varian rather than instantly turning all humans into worgen and Garrosh using the magnataurs.

deus ex machina to win

And yes, that was Sylvanas' plan because she made a deal with Azshara. Once again, the Horde has demonstrated that they cannot defeat the Alliance without seeking help from some evil force.

the horde was winning before she did the deal with "evil force"

do you realize Sylvanas goal never was to win? if her goal was that she would win for sure, she would win right in the war of thorns

How would they win? It also amuses me that what if. What if Malfurion remembers his exploits from the War of the Ancients and destroys the Horde? What if Malfurion kills Sylvanas? What if Saurfang doesn't find a cave that the Night Elves didn't know about, even though they've lived there for 10,000 years?

how? did you actually read the quests of anything?

Malfurion had an axe with his spine, her and saurfang fuck up the thing and let him live

the goal was to capture teldrasil/darnasus and make the alliance bleed figthing in two fronts while controlling an powerful position, taking their resources and hostages,.

Ah, now you're just trying to troll, you should have read the last sentence right away and not write this huge text. Again, you are trying to pass your fantasies off as canon. You are not a Blizzard employee, you know? You can't just say a spaceship can't destroy a city, period and hope people just agree. In disputes, evidence must be provided. Mana bombs? Oh yes, the Alliance will tremble with fear when firing from the spaceship. Or do you think that blue dragons will give up their artifacts again?

Show me that the spaceship destroyed a city then we can talk about

- the whole firepower of the spaceship showed in legion was to open a tiny hole in antorus, and thats it.
- it can't attack from space hoping it will land, as it showed it had to enter in the planet to damage antorus

you are claiming "im making up fantasies" while doing your own.

Ahahahahphwahpawhp, I am very amused how people remember the cannon in Azshara, even though it has never shown anything. Goblins BELIEVE they can destroy Stormwind, but goblin technology doesn't always work perfectly, you know.

Goblin technology works perfectly when it mean to explode and destroy, rest assure that if alliance ever want to bring the war into nuclear level they respont no time.

[starstationprofm]

Objectively asking, was anyone a good warchief? Other than Orgrim, noone of them could stop themselves from making worst decisions possible at any opportunity.

And then even orgrim had his gems.

Thrall as a Warchief saved the orcs, the dark trolls, the tauren, created the new Horde as a superpower to equal the Alliance ( which had been in Azeroth for thousands of years ), defeated the Legion at Hyjal and established the Horde as the top dog in Kalimdor. Under his leadership the Horde steamrolled through Northrend and killed the Lich King, as well as pushed back a Legion invasion in TBC.

Thrall was an amazing Warchief and should pretty much be hailed as the Horde's greatest hero.

[VladlTutushkin]

Theramore has been involved in fighting the Horde for the entirety of Cataclysm, to the point of running out of troops and Theramore forces preceded both Garrosh being Warchief and the Shattering by taking Honor's Stand. It's about as neutral as Orgrimmar itself. The rest of the argument I don't follow - if the Horde could seize the weapon by force and deploy it what else is really needed? The mana bomb is a blood elven weapon, the only thing different about is the power source and given what we've seen of the mana bomb in Outland the only real difference is in the relative yield, with Kirin Var likely being comparable to Theramore.

Jaina did ultimately change her mind, but only after she'd already tried twice. If I shoot someone with a gun, but he's wearing a vest and I then give up on it, I still went through with attempted murder, outside factors just happened to stop me. In any case what I'm getting at is that both the Focusing Iris and the krakens were things that the Horde had to seize before hand in order to deploy.

The Horde doesn't need to be equal to the Legion in terms of firepower, the Legion has endless amounts of spaceships and if the demon down there hadn't taken down the Xenedar any number of other elements would have. The case is more that if a Legion demon of no particular consequence was able to take the Xenedar down with one shot, there's no reason the Horde shouldn't be able to take down a comparable ship, especially if it's the BFA-era Horde where both factions have access to Warcraft plutonium in azerite. The Horde doesn't need to have the Legion's strength to take it down, only equal to or more strength than a demon so irrelevant it receives no commentary before or after its singular scene.




Guilty as charged, I'd have enjoyed BFA exponentially more if I had the chance to actually be involved in all the bullshit the narrative spent all of my time whinging about anyway rather than killing my own faction in defense of the enemy while the NPCs hog all the fun. The main thing is that what the Alliance player sees of the Horde in BFA has jack to do with what the Horde player does. In the Alliance content you fight gleeful tards involved in the faction war enthusiastically and kill them, then have your guys tell you how fighting is wrong because the narrative is written by people who's conception of morality is out of whack in the way only western urban writers can be. In the Horde content in BFA you spend 90% of your time losing to the Alliance and the rest of the time killing your own dudes while they tell you about how they wish they were born blue, also for the same reason.

This has little stake in the actual content of the game either as initially envisioned or initially presented. The fact that Theramore and the like can even be debated whereas any talk of BFA comes with an asterisk of having to avoid all the contrivances is what stands out. As regards Jaina, the reasons you point out is why her BFA storyline remains the most overrated element of that expansion. It's entirely a Doylist construction existing because the writers want world peace. Her character, and indeed any character could not have organically reached the conclusions she did.

Not only that. Even from Doylist point of view it is wrong. See, they presented the idea of Teldrassil burning (back during Jaina's rant) as some sort of an impossible even horizon that EVEN AUTHOR considered impossible and basically cemented in plot that it was a whacky antic of Jaina losing her marbles and wouldnt happen, and if it did happen then it would be some absolutely massive, world changing thing. Some even speculated that it would be saved for Warcraft 4 like Dalaran was crushed in Warcraft 3.

And then it fucken happened in a most CBT way possible. And NOW we are told that apparently it was a big deal but... like "choose renewal bruh...". Meanwhile Tyrande is presented as a psycho when she talks about Stormwind being burned down next.

Even for Doylist it was insane, downright psychopathic writing.

[Super Dickmann]

Not only that. Even from Doylist point of view it is wrong. See, they presented the idea of Teldrassil burning (back during Jaina's rant) as some sort of an impossible even horizon that EVEN AUTHOR considered impossible and basically cemented in plot that it was a whacky antic of Jaina losing her marbles and wouldnt happen, and if it did happen then it would be some absolutely massive, world changing thing. Some even speculated that it would be saved for Warcraft 4 like Dalaran was crushed in Warcraft 3.

And then it fucken happened in a most CBT way possible. And NOW we are told that apparently it was a big deal but... like "choose renewal bruh...". Meanwhile Tyrande is presented as a psycho when she talks about Stormwind being burned down next.

Even for Doylist it was insane, downright psychopathic writing.

Golden also wrote that bit I mentioned earlier where Sylvanas is against a war in Kalimdor because there'd be reprisal that'd obviously be targeted at Lordaeron. The book is full of irony.

Though I wouldn't doubt that they were actually aware of that bit and deliberately hearkened back to it by having the tree burn. It's also why Jaina is initially presented as a vindicated war hawk, but in the expansion we actually got she learns the error of her ways.

[VladlTutushkin]

Golden also wrote that bit I mentioned earlier where Sylvanas is against a war in Kalimdor because there'd be reprisal that'd obviously be targeted at Lordaeron. The book is full of irony.

Though I wouldn't doubt that they were actually aware of that bit and deliberately hearkened back to it by having the tree burn. It's also why Jaina is initially presented as a vindicated war hawk, but in the expansion we actually got she learns the error of her ways.

Which is entirely wrong. I mean, she got her zombified brother back, but like... During WW2 there were good germans who smuggled jews over the border but it had no effect on Allies being determined to wreck house of every other german in existence. Not to mention soviets specifically who even had german communist in their ranks (those who ran off from Germany after communist party being purged there) and still kept fighting.

An act of good will from one indian theme park mascot in no way can outweight the sheer amount of egregiously shameless war crimes.

And now they fucken cucked Tyrande even worse, because she got neutered without even most basic "offering".

[Orby]

Golden also wrote that bit I mentioned earlier where Sylvanas is against a war in Kalimdor because there'd be reprisal that'd obviously be targeted at Lordaeron. The book is full of irony.

Though I wouldn't doubt that they were actually aware of that bit and deliberately hearkened back to it by having the tree burn. It's also why Jaina is initially presented as a vindicated war hawk, but in the expansion we actually got she learns the error of her ways.

If I was to be a writer I would write a book, and not become creative writer for a video game. Creative Writers for games like WoW consist of over 10 writers.. 10 frikkin writers! You got the books, you got the world building, you got the lore, you got quest text, and much more, and even those are taken up by two or three people. How much must contradict itself? Then you gotta take into account the new changing writers coming in and out of the company and given all this lore.

At least when you write a book about my own fantasy world I would have a clear vision. Outside of going through proof readers and publishers. But its still your book, you don't hand it off to someone else.

[Mehrunes]

Can you stop writing nonsense? It hurts me with my lore knowledge to read this. The Horde has attacked the blue dragons and are you unhappy that one blue dragon decided to help the Alliance? Marvelous. I said that Garrosh attacked the blue dragons, I did not say that they were united. What? Did the Alliance use a mana bomb against cities? Or do you mean an artifact? Because Jaina eventually changed her mind about destroying Orgrimmar and saved the Alliance fleet from the Kraken, which the Horde subjugated (again, the Horde cannot win a normal war and uses other creatures).

Given how spotty your lore knowledge is, it's not surprising canon lore hurts you. Nothing I said there was incorrect. If it was you'd be able to actually point out which part of what I said was incorrect. Instead you're harping on how you haven't said that the Horde teamed up with the Blue Dragonflight, even though, you know, I didn't say you have either. So you and your "lore knowledge" are tilting at windmills right here. You did however try to built a narrative that the Horde wasn't fighting alone just because they nabbed an artifact off of them. All the while merrily ignoring that at the same time the Alliance had three neutral parties assisting Theramore.

Also, it's goddamn hilarious that when the Horde steals the Focusing Iris it's "ermahgerd the Horde isn't acting alone anymore" but when Jaina uses it this tangent magically disappears into the nether from which you initially pulled it. Horde using beasts though? Would you look at that, "ermahgerd the Horde isn't acting alone anymore" returns in an instant. I guess no one ever told you about the Alliance using horses or nightsabers.

And it's endearing that you're parroting what I told you to prove... whatever it is you convinced yourself you're proving by doing so. It's still not an actual argument, but hey, it's closer than you were before. You're welcome, I guess.

The problem is that the Horde did not unite with them, but subdued them because they could not defeat the Alliance in a regular war, when both factions use only their own forces. And yes, by subduing the dragons, the Horde has shown that it cannot defeat on its own.

This is just you trying to desperately split hairs. Whatever creatures the Horde subdues are a part of their forces. Also, the Horde didn't subdue the dragons because they felt they had no other option to win during the Second War. They subdued them because they stumbled upon an opportunity to do so and simply followed up on it, because why gimp themselves.

I did not say that these were random events, I said that both leaders of the Horde understood that they had no chance in a war against the Alliance without the use of outside forces.

You literally called them "not the Horde's actions". So what's this? Are you by per chance trying to squirm out of your blatantly wrong argument? How can it be when you have such pristine lore knowledge, I wonder. You should stand by the arguments it created, no?

Oh yes, it was Antaen. My bad. Only the top of his head was shown and I thought it was a weapon. Anyway, I don't remember the Horde having such things. Please stop writing nonsense. The Exodar was defeated upon landing, and the blood elves were already inside, sabotaging the ship. They didn't pierce it outside with their magic or techonology.

The Exodar was messed up during transit, actually. It "landed" precisely because of that. And given how we kill those Antaen without an issue later, they weren't exactly some mystical obliterators of doom with unmatched firepower.

I know that the worgen were accepted into the Alliance after the battle if you would stop trying to catch me (seriously, you can't come to terms with how insignificant your knowledge is compared to mine and constantly try to point out that I'm talking nonsense or get confused by not giving no evidence) and rubbed their eyes after thousands of hours of watching rule 34 with Sylvanas, you would have noticed that I didn't say they were part of the Alliance at the time. They were practically a part of it, however, because Varian and Greymane had established a relationship after a good hunt. And I pointed out that Goldrinn only blessed Varian. He did not order the worgen to help, they themselves wanted it (unlike the magnataurs who were subjugated) to help the Alliance (so that later to join it, proving to Varian that they were worthy of it) and I already indicated that this was a counterpunuk to the magnataurs.

Uh-huh. You knew about it so well that you repeatedly argued that the Horde was not fighting alone while mentioning nothing of the sort for the Alliance. I don't have to try to catch you at all. You do it for me by arguing yourself into a hole time and time again. But please do tell me more about how you're the god king of lore knowledge and that I somehow "get confused by not giving no evidence", when: 1. you haven't sources squat so far so I don't have to either, 2. I can source literally everything I said if needs be, all the while you're spreading some hot takes about the Xenedar being shot down by Fel cannons (or, in your subsequent reply to @Super Dickmann, that Theramore wasn't even an Alliance member at the time of its destruction when it's been one since at least Vanilla, with Jaina outright referring to Varian as her king at one point).

I mean, the Vindicaar cannon showed at least something and it pierced the most important building, you know, LEGION. Why does it seem to me that the Legion can build better than the Horde? Also forgive me that I believe in the weapons of the glowing super soldiers more than the weapons of the goblins, which tend to explode. I mean, the Azerite tank of the Horde was made according to the blueprints for the Azerite tank of the Alliance, and in the starting chain of the Horde there is this quest where the goblin admits that he does not know how his thing works.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Re-...uation_(Horde)

Why does it seem that opening tiny holes in the outer walls of a fortress is a far cry from destroying entire cities, which is what you claimed about the Vindicaar just one post earlier? Oh, right, because it is. Also, the Goblin in the quest you linked talks about the Re-Sizer v9.0.1 gun. Not sure what a gun has to do with Azerite War Machine or what a random Goblin not understanding the tool he was provided with proves in regard to the Azerite War Machine, but I guess it's something your totes superior lore knowledge led you to. Likewise, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Horde stole the plans for the Azerite War Machine when the Alliance had no clue what they were facing when Sylvanas deployed it at Lordaeron and their only response to seeing it was "let's smack it till it's dead", with the Alliance building one only after the fact.

And wasn't that the point? Create a small hole for a group of heroes to enter Antorus and kill the top of the Legion? A full-scale siege would be suicide. Sorry what? I understand that Sylvanas's fans have the same brains as hers, but can you please explain your last sentence to me? What the hell am I saying positively about, and how does this relate to the fact that Sergithied passes off his fantasies as 100% canon? He just writes ''Vindicaar couldn't do it, period'', as if he has quotes from all the books, comics, manga and Blizzard words from all their interviews and twitter at the same time, not just his personal fantasies about the almighty Horde.

It's really damn hilarious that you're trying to insult my brain in the very same sentence in which you showed that you don't know something as basic to argumentation as what a positive claim is, to the point it left you completely flabbergasted. MMO-C once again delivers.

Also not drowning Orgrimmar was her biggest mistake in entire life. Even surpassing all that Warcraft 3 stuff.

Technically the AU in which she did drown Orgrimmar ended up with the Horde destroying the Alliance.

[schwank05]

If you look at what she did as a Horde Warchief up until the last parts of BFA she was great, she ousted the Night Elves from Kalimdor and moved closer to controlling an entire continent rather than trying to defend Undercity deep in alliance territory. She was ruthless in battle and was willing to make the hard calls when needed. She was not racist like Garrosh, she built a very strong Horde, but then the writers screwed that up.

[VladlTutushkin]

Given how spotty your lore knowledge is, it's not surprising canon lore hurts you. Nothing I said there was incorrect. If it was you'd be able to actually point out which part of what I said was incorrect. Instead you're harping on how you haven't said that the Horde teamed up with the Blue Dragonflight, even though, you know, I didn't say you have either. So you and your "lore knowledge" are tilting at windmills right here. You did however try to built a narrative that the Horde wasn't fighting alone just because they nabbed an artifact off of them. All the while merrily ignoring that at the same time the Alliance had three neutral parties assisting Theramore.

Also, it's goddamn hilarious that when the Horde steals the Focusing Iris it's "ermahgerd the Horde isn't acting alone anymore" but when Jaina uses it this tangent magically disappears into the nether from which you initially pulled it. Horde using beasts though? Would you look at that, "ermahgerd the Horde isn't acting alone anymore" returns in an instant. I guess no one ever told you about the Alliance using horses or nightsabers.

And it's endearing that you're parroting what I told you to prove... whatever it is you convinced yourself you're proving by doing so. It's still not an actual argument, but hey, it's closer than you were before. You're welcome, I guess.




This is just you trying to desperately split hairs. Whatever creatures the Horde subdues are a part of their forces. Also, the Horde didn't subdue the dragons because they felt they had no other option to win during the Second War. They subdued them because they stumbled upon an opportunity to do so and simply followed up on it, because




You literally called them "not the Horde's actions". So what's this? Are you by per chance trying to squirm out of your blatantly wrong argument? How can it be when you have such pristine lore knowledge, I wonder. You should stand by the arguments it created, no?




The Exodar was messed up during transit, actually. It "landed" precisely because of that. And given how we kill those Antaen without an issue in later quests, they weren't exactly some mystical obliterators of doom with unmatched firepower.




Uh-huh. You knew about it so well that you repeatedly argued that the Horde was not fighting alone while mentioning nothing of the sort for the Alliance. I don't have to try to catch you at all. You do it for me by arguing yourself into a hole time and time again. But please do tell me more about how you're the god king of lore knowledge and that I somehow "get confused by not giving no evidence", when: 1. you haven't sources squat so far so I don't have to either, 2. I can source literally everything I said if needs be, all the while you're spreading some hot takes about the Xenedar being shot down by Fel cannons (or, in your subsequent reply to @Super Dickmann, that Theramore wasn't even an Alliance member at the time of its destruction when it's been one since at least Vanilla, with Jaina outright referring to Varian as her king at onepoint).




Why does it seem that opening tiny holes in the outer walls of a fortress is a far cry from destroying entire cities, which is what you claimed about the Vindicaar just one post earlier? Oh, right, because it is. Also, the Goblin in the quest you linked talks about the Re-Sizer v9.0.1 gun. Not sure what a gun has to do with Azerite War Machine or what a random Goblin not understanding the tool he was provided with proves in regard to the Azerite War Machine, but I guess it's something your totes superior lore knowledge led you to. Likewise, I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Horde stole the plans for the Azerite War Machine when the Alliance had no clue what they were facing when Sylvanas deployed it at Lordaeron and their only response to seeing it was "let's smack it till it's dead", with the Alliance building one only after the fact.




It's really damn hilarious that you're trying to insult my brain in the very same sentence in which you showed that you don't know something as basic to argumentation as what a positive claim is, to the point it left you completely flabbergasted. MMO-C once again delivers.




Technically the AU in which she did drown Orgrimmar ended up with the Horde destroying the Alliance.

And it was an AU. There were also AUs where Garrosh was the best warchief to ever live. In most AU's Azeroth is doomed which prompts all kinds of star-scryers and prophets to side with Big Bads because they see those AUs.

So basically, AU or prophecies are often misleading.

- - - Updated - - -

If you look at what she did as a Horde Warchief up until the last parts of BFA she was great, she ousted the Night Elves from Kalimdor and moved closer to controlling an entire continent rather than trying to defend Undercity deep in alliance territory. She was ruthless in battle and was willing to make the hard calls when needed. She was not racist like Garrosh, she built a very strong Horde, but then the writers screwed that up.

Because for her to be this "ruthless victor" Alliance had to be turned into witless cretins. Even harder then usual. So if we talking about "writers screwing up" then with "unscrewed" writers Alliance wouldnt be dumb enough to get misled by an obvious bait.

[Super Dickmann]

If I was to be a writer I would write a book, and not become creative writer for a video game. Creative Writers for games like WoW consist of over 10 writers.. 10 frikkin writers! You got the books, you got the world building, you got the lore, you got quest text, and much more, and even those are taken up by two or three people. How much must contradict itself? Then you gotta take into account the new changing writers coming in and out of the company and given all this lore.

At least when you write a book about my own fantasy world I would have a clear vision. Outside of going through proof readers and publishers. But its still your book, you don't hand it off to someone else.

All of these franchises are written by committee. A skilled writer can turn dross into something palatable. Losing Brooks was a massive hit on the quality of Blizzard's in-house stable, but having one writer for an MMO like this for every quest very rarely happens. Even singleplayer RPGs have writing teams for different plots and characters.

[Triceron]

this is beyond writers,

No, this is literally just about the writers.

This is a work of fiction. They wrote in catapults destroying a major city, they wrote the Alliance conveniently forgetting they have a superweapon in orbit at their convenience and choosing not to use it at all.

It's all about the writers choosing these scenarios. Everything else you're talking about is nonsense. Warcraft history isn't real, and the reason why vindicaar wasn't used is as simple as the writers choosing to draw out a huge conflict without using superweapon retaliation of this fashion. Cuz you know, they think Jaina with a battleship is more dramatic and cool, even though they have a freakin orbital superweapon ready and waiting anytime they wish.

Or look at how easy it was for Mawsworn kidnapping the leaders of the Alliance and Horde. Know what that is? Lazy writing.

- - - Updated - - -

There's something to be said about Sylvanas failing even at failure, since she contributed more to the Horde as Warchief than Vol'jin did despite making it her objective to fail. His decision in any case didn't really have much impact on the end state of the Horde at the time of his death. The territorial holdings of the Horde and its composition were the same before and after. Even just incorporating the Zandalari constitutes a net benefit that Vol'jin didn't do. If anything, him appointing her over keeping his gob shut and letting any of the other eunuchs take the reins is the unquestionable triumph of his entire tenure since while deliberately attempting to screw over her constituents she still was more effectively diplomatic than her successors, see Baine making a dog's breakfast out of incorporating the vulpera. The only thing it would have accomplished is leaving us to the BFA end state of a Horde consisting entirely of dickless appeasers one expansion earlier, except without Talanji and Geyarah to soften the blow, though with the benefit of Gallywix.

Disagree completely.

We're shown that even Varok could have diplomatic connections to the Alliance given enough reason to, and I think he would have been a fine leader that the Horde already respected. The only problem is the story is not written for him. His age is not an issue to be ruler, considering the story is equally setting up Turalyon as Alliance leader and both are WC2 era veterans.

And sure, Sylvanas accomplished many good things like the allied races, but that isn't Vol'jins legacy either. He himself could have bridged the gap between Zandalar and the Horde, yet the writers chose not to go down that path, simple as that. He appointed a Warchief that strengthened the Horde but at the cost of their moral values, loss of territory, and inciting a future conflict which will be carried on by characters like Turalyon.

The Horde being toothless after Voljin's reign? It was already toothless during his reign, and it resulted in him dying to a no-name demon dude. And his dying breath appoints a Warchief that quells any alternative appeals for Horde leadership. He is written to be tricked by supernatural powers. That is his legacy.

Just as Thrall's legacy is forever tied to his great achievements, but also his negligence in appointing and leaving Garrosh to take full control of the Horde, with no real power to any of the other leaders or advisors within. That is Thrall's legacy, even if he didn't choose to create the Iron Horde or kill Cairne or create diplomatic rifts between the Horde and Alliance. It happened because of his choice for future leadership and in keeping the broken system with no appeals to change or better it. Like I said earlier, no reason why Mak'gora should even exist since its a tool for evil overlords to come into power simply through being more powerful or skilled in combat. And also consider that EVERY mak'gora we've known about has involved cheating in some form. Thrall vs Garrosh, Garrosh vs Cairne, Varok vs Sylvanas, hell even the non-canon Durotan vs Gul'dan. It's broken as hell, and the writers are fine with it that way.

[Shefu]

So, I argue with fanboy of Sylvanas and he proves to me that she is the best warchief, so I decided to find out what the Horde players think about it. Do you think Sylvanas was actually a good warchief for the Horde? We will not discuss her personality, whether she was good or evil, or what she thought of the Horde and that she actually worked for the Jailer. It's just that, looking at her ACTIONS, you would say that she has done much more good for the Horde than harm and has she accomplished more for the Horde than the previous leaders?

Best Warchief the Horde's ever had, too bad the writers had to ruin her.

[Myradin]

Yet the standard for a good leader is always subjective, in terms of 'good'.

In terms of effectiveness, she was a better leader than Vol'jin. So even if you don't consider what she did as being good, comparatively it's still better than what Vol'jin did for the Horde. And I say this as someone who hates Sylvanas having been written into the role of Warchief, and would rather have had the writers spend time on actually fleshing out Vol'jin's role rather than literally cutting him out of an entire expansion then killing him off as soon as we return from Draenor.

I mean under Vol'jin, the Horde had no internal conflict, nor sparked any unnecessary war with the alliance, outside some random skirmish in another dimension's timeline. Given the hostile transition of power that got him there, that's pretty a pretty solid track record. It wasn't an exciting reign, but it was a stable one.

Given that sylvanus started a war with the intent on increasing the bodycount on both sides, I don't see how she could be considered a better leader. She divided the horde and got horde killed for reasons that didn't further the horde.

[Triceron]

Given that sylvanus started a war with the intent on increasing the bodycount on both sides, I don't see how she could be considered a better leader. She divided the horde and got horde killed for reasons that didn't further the horde.

She strengthened the Horde with permanent allies that remain after her reign. That's going to be a part of her legacy despite all the damage she did.

And considering the permanence of game mechanics, the Allied Races are forever going to be contributing to its strength. And of the things that were lost? Lordaeron as a capital city, which few people really used anyways, and arguably the death of Saurfang. Most of the other Horde losses have been fairly negligeable in the big picture, and the conflict was more a backdrop to the eventual sidesweep by Azshara and N'zoth more than anything. At the end of the day the majority of Sylvanas Loyalists end up being folded back into the Horde with no real repercussions, with a portion of Dark Ranger loyalists being any tangible loss here. No formal Sylvanas Loyalist group ever formed out of it, so the Horde is relatively non-plussed by the losses.

And in times of war, losses are going to be incurred anyways. Vol'jin got Horde killed for reasons that didn't further the horde either by having them participate in the Broken Shore event, which includes *his own* death. And it didn't help that having participated in the Broken Shore is exactly what leads to the Alliance viewing them as 'betraying' them by calling back forces when HE gets mortally wounded. I want to point out that the way Vol'jin was written, it was his personal negligence that leads to all of this crumbling in the end. The writers chose to have him be the catalyst of defeat at the Broken Shore, and the catalyst for the future war that the Horde becomes embroiled in. That's his legacy because the writers chose him to be that scapegoat.


And just to be clear, I have no love for Sylvanas and I have no disdain for Vol'jin. I pin all of this on the writers having chosen to write the story in this way to prop up Sylvanas having active Warchief leadership, while leaving absolutely nothing for Vol'jin and having him be the first domino that falls. If we're looking at this from a story point of view, then Vol'jin is a worse Warchief because he was written to fail the Horde and plunge them into a massive war with the Alliance through a series of unfortunate events. It all boils down to the two key moments which could have avoided it all - having enough protection to not be stabbed by some rando mook Demon soldier, and not listening to random underworld spirits regarding the future leadership of the Horde.

I mean this is literally a Nixon situation that Vol'jin is in. Sure, he did good during his term, but it's the one moment of weakness that tarnishes that whole legacy. It's just that the story is set up so that everyone acknowledges Vol'jin as a 'victim' of the underworld shenanigans, when really it's HIS responsibility to not get mortally wounded and placed in a position to be tricked by the Jailer's shenanigans.

And to be fair about this criticism, I also point out how badly written the whole Mawsworn abduction of major lore figures was all played out. How strong are the Alliance and Horde if their leaders can so easily be abducted by a handful of flying mooks. It's just bad story writing altogether. And my argument is that Vol'jin was a bad warchief because he is a victim of bad writing, that had him be placed in the wrong place at the wrong time.