Was Sylvanas a good warchief?

[Triceron]

Something marks it as a bad general and it is all the inconclusiveness of its plan and for which the BFA plot is so criticized. All of his plans are based on strokes of luck and impulsive movement.

That can be a criticism of the story overall, but not of her actions as a military leader. Nothing about that poor BFA writing contributed to her being a poor Warchief (Dictator).

"Something" marks it as bad, so what exactly would you specifically frame as bad about her leadership in battle? The story was just as easily throwing in random elements like Jaina appearing with a floating battleship, so I don't know what you would consider competent military decision making in this context.

I agree that Sylvanas was not portrayed as a brilliant military leader, but neither was she written poorly for it.

Vol'jin, in comparison, was straight up written poorly. He leads the Horde in Broken Shore, and gets killed easily and randomly. Sylvanas in comparison would be a poor Warchief if she allowed Lordaeron to be taken or let herself be captured, but she did not. She lost Lordaeron but did not allow Alliance to take it, and that is the best thing a commander could allow in war. The only real loss she got was from not dealing with Saurfang, which lead to her failed plans with Derek Proudmoore and ultimately losing her position when she finally fought Saurfang.


If welfare of troops is the standard of a good commander, then Arthas would have been the worst commander ever since all his troops are dead.

[Mehrunes]

Again, depends on the context.

Not that I disagree with your overall point, but that doesn't really apply here at all. Because despite all this talk about Sylvanas "throwing people into a meatgrinder" over the last two pages, when did that actually happen? She started the war to feed the Maw with the casualties of the war as a whole. There was no need for her to fight any individual battles in a way that sacrificed her troops beyond the normal scope of combat, which is why it didn't really happen. And it's the battles that reflect on her as a commander (which even Feanoro corroborates with the bit about superior tactics).

Even looking at this from the perspective of her hidden objective in a logical manner, just merrily "sacrificing Horde soldiers on 'multiple occasions'" would have only sapped the Horde fighting power, gave the Alliance an advantage and shortened the war she needed for her goals. Preserving her troops so she could stretch the war at large out would have led to more overall war casualties by way of a thousand cuts.

The only time she has actually came close to "sacrificing her own soldiers" is when she deployed the Blight while the soldiers that sallied out on their own were yet to return. Except even that doesn't really count, because what people keep ignoring is that those soldiers were utterly fucked either way. They participated in an unsuccessful sally. They were trapped between the wall and the Alliance that was advancing and about to cut them down. It'd be suicidal for the Horde to reopen the gates for them with Alliance in pursuit. If anything, the Blight maneuver saved those that managed to survive it. Which is kinda why one of their possible dialogues of the Horde soldiers you could optionally save was thanking the player, right after you participated in the Blight deployment on their asses.

[geco]

That can be a criticism of the story overall, but not of her actions as a military leader. Nothing about that poor BFA writing contributed to her being a poor Warchief (Dictator).

"Something" marks it as bad, so what exactly would you specifically frame as bad about her leadership in battle? The story was just as easily throwing in random elements like Jaina appearing with a floating battleship, so I don't know what you would consider competent military decision making in this context.

I agree that Sylvanas was not portrayed as a brilliant military leader, but neither was she written poorly for it.

Vol'jin, in comparison, was straight up written poorly. He leads the Horde in Broken Shore, and gets killed easily and randomly. Sylvanas in comparison would be a poor Warchief if she allowed Lordaeron to be taken or let herself be captured, but she did not. She lost Lordaeron but did not allow Alliance to take it, and that is the best thing a commander could allow in war. The only real loss she got was from not dealing with Saurfang, which lead to her failed plans with Derek Proudmoore and ultimately losing her position when she finally fought Saurfang.


If welfare of troops is the standard of a good commander, then Arthas would have been the worst commander ever since all his troops are dead.

I put it in other words.
Nothing is really achieving her in the end.
I mean, I would leave it at "it's not a military disaster but it's not a great military either" it's a 5/10

I mean at the end in BFA. Everything that is supposed to be "her achievement" ends up being luck. But her mistakes without hers are her fault.

[Triceron]

I put it in other words.
Nothing is really achieving her in the end.
I mean, I would leave it at "it's not a military disaster but it's not a great military either" it's a 5/10

I mean at the end in BFA. Everything that is supposed to be "her achievement" ends up being luck. But her mistakes without hers are her fault.

Really? So all the allied races joining the Horde are purely luck, and has nothing to do with her actively recruiting? Curious you think that way. I don't agree with that at all.

She actively recruited and accepted races into the Horde, and building those alliances to bolster the military forces of the Horde is not something that just falls into your lap. Hell, even Blood Elves being added to the Horde can be attributed directly to Sylvanas.

[Syegfryed]

No, this is literally just about the writers.

This is a work of fiction. They wrote in catapults destroying a major city, they wrote the Alliance conveniently forgetting they have a superweapon in orbit at their convenience and choosing not to use it at all.

It's all about the writers choosing these scenarios. Everything else you're talking about is nonsense. Warcraft history isn't real, and the reason why vindicaar wasn't used is as simple as the writers choosing to draw out a huge conflict without using superweapon retaliation of this fashion. Cuz you know, they think Jaina with a battleship is more dramatic and cool, even though they have a freakin orbital superweapon ready and waiting anytime they wish.

Or look at how easy it was for Mawsworn kidnapping the leaders of the Alliance and Horde. Know what that is? Lazy writing.

your whole idea that if it was not by the writers the alliance would have smashed and destroyed the horde is completely bananas and nonsensical


this all boils down to you and alliance players having unreal expectations of thing that never happened, and think its some sort of robbery that the allince neve did something they are 100% capable off, when they weren't, never

...while ignoring they do the same for both sides

You put in your head that the alliance have a "a superweapon in orbit" when in legion it was showd her "magnificence of just shooting some controlled lazer beings to destroy rocks, using the planet resources, that, mind you, were lacking.

You forget that the horde would have won in ashenvale if it was not by th writers literally putting varian as deus ex machina, in MOP would have destroyed the alliance if it was not by they making Garrosh Evil, you forget the horde would had ultimately won against the alliance in BFA if they didn't made Sylvanas evil and Saurfang a dumbass

But yeah, its the writers fault that Alliance never destroyed/dismantled the horde, because they totally can

[Dellis0991]

Better than some worst than most.

[Soon-TM]

You think the horde don't have flying ship with cannons? the goblins are the pioneers of zeppelins and flying warships

you talk like only the alliance was "nerfed" when the horde didn't use half of his potential and almost nothing that they brought over from the iron horde.

the alliance never had the power to destroy or dismantle the horde, this is a nonsense headcanon from alliance players, they couldn't in MOP they couldn't now.

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but i take back, vol'jin was the worst warchief, it was because of him that that the horde didn't won against the alliance back in mop because his shit revolution and he was the one who point sylvanas to be leader, he was the start of the downfall.

Speaking of deus ex machina, I loved how the nightborne could build a big magical shield around Suramar, but the entirety of Horde wizards couldn't manage to wrap a #$&%ing racial capital on anything even remotely similar, all while Jaina Sue bombarded Lordaeron to her heart's content.

[Nathreim]

She left the Horde as the most powerful faction for the first time since before the Second War but that was coincidence not the actual goal. That seems to be the summation of her time as Warchief she did a lot of good for the Horde but it was really just coincidence.

So Id have to say no still better than the council of idiots though.

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Speaking of deus ex machina, I loved how the nightborne could build a big magical shield around Suramar, but the entirety of Horde wizards couldn't manage to wrap a #$&%ing racial capital on anything even remotely similar, all while Jaina Sue bombarded Lordaeron to her heart's content.

Ley lines. Same reason why the High Elves establish their city where it is even if it meant war with the Amani. If you have a convergence of ley lines you can power massive shields like that with ease. Only a few cities are built with that in mind.

[Soon-TM]

@Nathreim ley lines apparently weren't much of an issue for Jaina Suemoore, were they?

[Feanoro]

Blizz/Sylvie has never been a good at military strategy and tactics. In WC3, she threw bodies at Arthas and taunted him with all he needed to know to get past the defenses.

Blizz has NEVER demonstrated knowing shit from shinola about how war is actually waged.

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Speaking of deus ex machina, I loved how the nightborne could build a big magical shield around Suramar, but the entirety of Horde wizards couldn't manage to wrap a #$&%ing racial capital on anything even remotely similar, all while Jaina Sue bombarded Lordaeron to her heart's content.

That isn't the story they wanted to tell, to borrow Danuser Cringecaller's phrase. Sucks when they completely ignore their own setting and rules, eh?

[Syegfryed]

Ley lines. Same reason why the High Elves establish their city where it is even if it meant war with the Amani. If you have a convergence of ley lines you can power massive shields like that with ease. Only a few cities are built with that in mind.

pretty sure ley lines are everyone in the planet, and they could work around with azerite or other means

[VladlTutushkin]

Blizz/Sylvie has never been a good at military strategy and tactics. In WC3, she threw bodies at Arthas and taunted him with all he needed to know to get past the defenses.

Blizz has NEVER demonstrated knowing shit from shinola about how war is actually waged.

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That isn't the story they wanted to tell, to borrow Danuser Cringecaller's phrase. Sucks when they completely ignore their own setting and rules, eh?

They only notice it when it affects them, as usual.

[Varodoc]

Canonically, as per the word of Canon/God/Blizzard, she was a terrible Warchief who broke the Horde, much like Garrosh, and was the true heir to Blackhand's legacy (Blackhand is also seen as a disaster and a stain on the Horde's history).

By complete contrast, Warchiefs like Thrall and Vol'jin, as well as this new Horde Council, are seen as positive changes of leadership in the Horde.

So Canonically Sylvanas is seen as a terrible Warchief and a dark chapter in the Horde's history that is best left forgotten.

Even her followers, the Forsaken, now despise her after her betrayal. And since she never truly cared about the Forsaken, she deprived them of their homes and left them as beggars in the streets of a filthy canyon city. This is Sylvanas' legacy to the Forsaken.

While Calia Menethil is seen as the beginning of a bright, shining new chapter for the Forsaken.

[tankbug]

The way the story turned out, of course not. Never put paranoide, ruthless, conquest-hungry, angry people with world-changing plans in power. I haven't read any books or comics about her, but the in-game story gives her zero redeeming qualities. She started out bad, ended up worse. How about Thrall takes back the throne, or names someone not willing to make enemies with everything in the universe for some stupid goal?

[Nathreim]

pretty sure ley lines are everyone in the planet, and they could work around with azerite or other means

They are but in some areas they intersect creating powerful hubs of arcane magic Quelthalas and Suramar are built on intersections of ley lines.

[Soon-TM]

They only notice it when it affects them, as usual.

Oh, don't get me wrong, if writers could whistle a tune and tie their shoelaces at the same time, the war of thorns could have never happened. Still, one BS episode doesn't excuse another, does it?

[VladlTutushkin]

Oh, don't get me wrong, if writers could whistle a tune and tie their shoelaces at the same time, the war of thorns could have never happened. Still, one BS episode doesn't excuse another, does it?

At this point i may even settle for equally bad writing for both, with a clause that Horde dosent get those genocidal fiestas they seem to receive like some twisted holiday every year.

[Martymark]

Thrall was the only good Warchief. That's why they had to contrive a reason to get rid of him. Can't have a stupid plot of smart people are in control.

[Soon-TM]

Thrall was the only good Warchief. That's why they had to contrive a reason to get rid of him. Can't have a stupid plot of smart people are in control.

Tbh even Thrall was a quite crappy warchief. He may not have been a genocidal maniac, but he doomed his people to hunger and poverty when he decided to settle in such an unhospitable place as Durotar because of green guilt. He didn't bother to expand the Horde, thus indirectly weakening it - as a matter of fact, it was the Tauren who poked Thrall to induct the Forsaken into the Horde, ditto for Sylvanas and belfs. Aside from Theramore, he systematically tried to appease the Alliance and ultimately failed, when Varian declared war during the coup d'état at the Undercity. After such an unblemished service record, he threw the hot potato to someone who by self admission was unfit to lead, and went to Sue his merry way all around Azeroth.

[mickybrighteyes]

Thrall was the only good Warchief. That's why they had to contrive a reason to get rid of him. Can't have a stupid plot of smart people are in control.

Thrall was a shitty leader that is only remembered as "good" because that was his intended moral alignment...

He was a terrible leader that abandoned his post during a time of war so he could go bang his wife and have a kid that the lore deliberately forgot. He did some good things in founding the horde but due to having to be the 'good' leader that plays nice with everyone he wound up being a rather piss poor warchief trying to play at being Moses.

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Oh, don't get me wrong, if writers could whistle a tune and tie their shoelaces at the same time, the war of thorns could have never happened. Still, one BS episode doesn't excuse another, does it?

I mean.. to be fair. that story arc didn't start out so bad... but yeah the execution was atrocious.