Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Sondrelk]

Shadowlands is hardly the moment where the plot completely collapsed I would argue. It's crime really is just being kinda boring where Legion was fun in a camp way, and BfA was awful on an entirely new level.

The plot in WoW has never been great, or even really that good. The most consistently good writing we have gotten out of WoW was during Cata where the plot required no contrivances or leaps of logic to function. The plot just managed to happily chugged along without getting bogged down in trying to tell morally ambigious stories (BfA), breaking down fan favorite characters for the cool factor (MoP), or indeed changing several characters into villains jsut because that is easier than coming up with good reasons for it (TBC).

The crime of Shadowlands is really just that I really do get the impression noone really cares what is going to happen. The plotline with Uther and condemning Arthas is about the most engaged I am in the plot, and that is really just a side thing despite such a juicy source of pathos.
The main villain came out of absolutely nowhere in the most blatant way, and the story surrounding Sylvanas is more engaging to players on a meta level of whether Blizzard will redeem her or not, which isnt really interesting for plot reasons, but more so in being a litmus test for whether Blizzard has actually learned from previous failures regarding hastily redeemed characters.

BfA at least had story players were engaged in for the actual characters. Whether Saurfang would die honorably was not just intriguing for the meta level of writing where we care about the inherent writing quality, but also because it was a narrative hook with a lot of weight. The question wasnt just "Will the writers be willing to let Saurfang acknowledge the Horde being evil?", but further that if this happened, how would it pan out narratively?


Shadowlands really is just kinda boring. Much of this does definitely fall on the severe drought caused by Covid, but it also does fall on the plot really not beign that engaging. It has moments of quality, I still get shivers when I watch the Bastion cinematic and hear Arthas' last words, or when Uther feels regret over being unable to adhere to his teachings. The quest where you fight Tyrande and get that really good rendition of Nightsong is absolutely stellar in achieveing what it wants.
However, these moments are few and far between. And worse, these moments are barely linked to the main plot. The main stroy is currently about stopping a big blue man we have no clue about from finding a mystical thing we also have no idea about, which in turn will allow him to enact his dastardly plan to maybe one day actually tell us what his plan entails.

SL didnt necessarily need to be good, but it needed to be engaging. Legion managed to be engaging because it succsefully managed to ramp up the stakes to absurd levels while still maintaining a core focus on stuff that the players would actually care about. And BfA managed to sustain interest in the narrative through is absolutely atrocious writing for the same reason. Both those expansions focused on stuff that players genuinely care to see. And this is where Shadowlands failed.


tl;dr: Shadowlands is bad because it is just really, really boring. It has no relatable narrative core that players genuinely want to see through. And while BfA is infinitely worse in the writing department, it at least managed to be interesting, both because it had this narrative core to care about, as well as its writing being bad enough to warrant so bad its good status.

[Nyel]

I mean just look up pyromancer for one example of many one of the biggest lore guys for wow on twitch and youtube he pretty much gave up on wow entirely because of the lore and i believe he turned his entire channel and passion into ff 14 instead removing wow related stuff, you can search for him raging for wasting a large part of his life to wow's lore.

Here is a little tease but the full video is out there.


Then there is entire huge forum threads online going deep into the issues of wow's lore should be easy to search for, think there is plenty even here on the subforum.

It's pretty depressing imo as i also used to atleast enjoy the lore but that was a long time ago now, nothing against those that still enjoy it though and i hope it will improve but not with the current writers that's for sure.

Uh, angry Pyromancer is hot. Thank you for this eyecandy.

On another note: he's completely right.

[Makabreska]

"I white-knighted for Blizz and got nothing from it". Ye, great rant. What did he expect? To get some kind of a reward? He subjectively disliked the current lore and he treats it like a personal insult.

[Kiivar86]

The possibility of what Zereth Mortis is is the first time I've actually been excited for lore in Shadowlands.

I am prepared to be disappointed.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I mean just look up pyromancer for one example of many one of the biggest lore guys for wow on twitch and youtube he pretty much gave up on wow entirely because of the lore and i believe he turned his entire channel and passion into ff 14 instead removing wow related stuff, you can search for him raging for wasting a large part of his life to wow's lore.

Here is a little tease but the full video is out there.


Then there is entire huge forum threads online going deep into the issues of wow's lore should be easy to search for, think there is plenty even here on the subforum.

It's pretty depressing imo as i also used to atleast enjoy the lore but that was a long time ago now, nothing against those that still enjoy it though and i hope it will improve but not with the current writers that's for sure.

Shadowlands really is just kinda boring. Much of this does definitely fall on the severe drought caused by Covid, but it also does fall on the plot really not beign that engaging. It has moments of quality, I still get shivers when I watch the Bastion cinematic and hear Arthas' last words, or when Uther feels regret over being unable to adhere to his teachings. The quest where you fight Tyrande and get that really good rendition of Nightsong is absolutely stellar in achieveing what it wants.

So saying SL is boring cause of something outside of the game's control(Covid). Thats stupid reasoning and really nothing on the engagement part. Bastion's story is basically showing the Kyrian's "Enlightened ways" but there's a flaw to it. Devos sees the way of the Kyrian is flawed somehow thinking what she saw with Uther means the path is flawed. What she foolishly doesn't see is that the Jailer fooled her into somehow ignoring the fact Zovaal IS THE REASON Frostmourne did damage to Uther's soul. She doesn't put together the only way something from the Maw escaped is well somehow something weird going on.

She never put it together and instead joined the force that caused Uther so much turmoil.

And worse, these moments are barely linked to the main plot. The main stroy is currently about stopping a big blue man we have no clue about from finding a mystical thing we also have no idea about, which in turn will allow him to enact his dastardly plan to maybe one day actually tell us what his plan entails.

So more non specifics. Yes its about "The Jailer" some presence that was in the Helm of domination which Bolvar says. We see that entity in the Maw intro to Shadowlands. We see his massive Mawsworn army, and how he kidnapped some of our allies and he seems to want Anduin for some reason(We know now and thats been told to us). The fact there's some vagueness to his plan is not basically let the story develop and not just be like "Oh yeah we're going to <Insert where 9.2 is and the events that follow> Its not giving you the answer right away. You just have to wait, its no different to a a big story over long period of time(TV Shows).


[QUOTE]SL didnt necessarily need to be good, but it needed to be engaging. Legion managed to be engaging because it succsefully managed to ramp up the stakes to absurd levels while still maintaining a core focus on stuff that the players would actually care about. And BfA managed to sustain interest in the narrative through is absolutely atrocious writing for the same reason. Both those expansions focused on stuff that players genuinely care to see. And this is where Shadowlands failed.

I know I quoted you before but again not saying WHY, or just "I don't get why he's doing what he's doing." We know why Zovaal is causing chaos in the SL. We just have to look.

tl;dr: Shadowlands is bad because it is just really, really boring. It has no relatable narrative core that players genuinely want to see through. And while BfA is infinitely worse in the writing department, it at least managed to be interesting, both because it had this narrative core to care about, as well as its writing being bad enough to warrant so bad its good status.

The narrative is the events of the Shadowlands and Zovaal's manipulations behind the scenes. Zovaal is the shadow that is covering everything in relation to the Lich King, Fall of Lordaeron. He is the puppet master and in very obvious fashion, "I come for the soul of your world."

Its pretty obvious what he wants and given his relationship with Frostmourne and the Lich King, he is not someone to taken lightly. I'm not gonna critque BFA cause well it would make this post better then it already is. If there is anything I disliked about it, its how people responded to the faction conflict. People being waaay tooo wound up about it(Teldrassil not withstanding).

[ParanoiD84]

That means nothing. Its not really depressing, this dude is a guy who made a lot of crazy as shit theories and now he's shitting on lore?

Sounds like he wanted his theories to be true. Just cause a YT says something doesn't mean its true.

You can always compare the amount of negative opinions of wow'lore to the positives.

When was the last time you heard that wow's lore was amazing btw? i have played since bc and i can say that the curent lore is abolute shit so that's one opinion from along time player that thinks story and lore in games is important. But sure your own opinion is the most important and if you enjoy it then good for you man.

Also that guy probably knows more on wow's lore then most of us here owning all books and whatnot if he didnt burn them all i could see he removed them from his room atleast in latest vids. But what would you do having devoted a large part of your life to something that you now hate.

[Raetary]

Lol at Pyromancer.
Wows lore is in an absolute trash state, and that's putting it lightly, but Pyromancer is the absolute last person to have any say on whether something is well written or not.

I stood there and i white-knighted, and i fucking simped for Blizzard for 2 expansions long

As if Blizzard was gonna reward him for his efforts.

[Sondrelk]

You can always compare the amount of negative opinions of wow'lore to the positives.

When was the last time you heard that wow's lore was amazing btw? i have played since bc and i can say that the curent lore is abolute shit so that's one opinion from along time player that thinks story and lore in games is important. But sure your own opinion is the most important and if you enjoy it then good for you man.

I mean, I have never heard anyone call the current expansions lore amazing. There might have been some during WoW Classic, but the only time I remember seeing someone calling the story of WoW amazing is when they are reminiscing about old expansions.
When I look back to TBC and WotLK, expansions with supposedly amazing lore I always seem to find old forum threads about the dumb antics of Arthas the moustache twirler, of players really salty that Lady Vashj is just suddenly a captain planet villain stealing Outlands water.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

WoW's lore has never really been that good. Vanilla was pretty fine but there wasn't really much of a story going on. It had some ups that one could enjoy but it was mostly downs. It's just gotten sooooo much worse and the retcons absurd.

[ParanoiD84]

Lol at Pyromancer.
Wows lore is in an absolute trash state, and that's putting it lightly, but Pyromancer is the absolute last person to have any say on whether something is well written or not.



As if Blizzard was gonna reward him for his efforts.

It was just one example but as i said if one enjoys it then good on them you should never let someone else deside your opinions on anything.

[Nyel]

It was just one example but as i said if one enjoys it then good on them you should never let someone else deside your opinions on anything.

I mean let's not pretend basically everybody dislikes recent WoW lore (since BfA the majority absolutely does), it's just some random dudes on the internet that are pissed, lol. Not like this very thread is complaining about the lore-shitshow that's going on for the last 3.5 years.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

Not like this very thread is complaining about the lore-shitshow that's going on for the last 3.5 years.

Going on the Lore sub-forum and reading posts like Super Dickmann's systemically eviscerating the lore has been the highlight of the whole thing.

[Makabreska]

It was just one example but as i said if one enjoys it then good on them you should never let someone else deside your opinions on anything.

To me WoW lore was never really something to enjoy (or in foreground), because with data-mining and crapton of people speculating and predicting, it holds zero surprises. There always has to be a big threat each expansions that unifies us. But I do enjoy smaller things like Velen progression in Legion, but ofc people never talk about these, preferring to shit all over entire lore.

[draugril]

To me WoW lore was never really something to enjoy (or in foreground), because with data-mining and crapton of people speculating and predicting, it holds zero surprises. There always has to be a big threat each expansions that unifies us. But I do enjoy a smaller things like Velen progression in Legion, but ofc people never talk about these, preferring to shit all over entire lore.

It would be nice if their plot actually had a plot. It confuses a stream of dramatically impotent mysteries and reveals for an actual narrative.

[ParanoiD84]

I mean let's not pretend basically everybody dislikes recent WoW lore (since BfA the majority absolutely does), it's just some random dudes on the internet that are pissed, lol. Not like this very thread is complaining about the lore-shitshow that's going on for the last 3.5 years.

Of course not just think they should consider some fresh blood in the author/writing departement.

[Dracullus]

I won't defend SL story, especially Sylvanas/Jailer plot, but there is something off with this Pyromancer guy and I don't base my opinion on this meltdown alone.

[ParanoiD84]

To me WoW lore was never really something to enjoy (or in foreground), because with data-mining and crapton of people speculating and predicting, it holds zero surprises. There always has to be a big threat each expansions that unifies us. But I do enjoy smaller things like Velen progression in Legion, but ofc people never talk about these, preferring to shit all over entire lore.

For sure mmo's are also not the best media to create great and consistent lore.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

For sure mmo's are also not the best media to create great and consistent lore.

But it's also not impossible either. But it doesn't have to be great. I'd take fine over the trash WoW has been doing.

[ParanoiD84]

I won't defend SL story, especially Sylvanas/Jailer plot, but there is something off with this Pyromancer guy and I don't base my opinion on this meltdown alone.

Well you should never base your opinions on others i just gave a example of a guy that devoted a big part of his life to wow lore and why he abandoned it.

- - - Updated - - -

But it's also not impossible either. But I'd take fine over the trash WoW has been doing.

FF does a pretty good job with it but they also give you everything in game without a bunch of novels to understand the whole deal.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

FF does a pretty good job with it but they also give you everything in game without a bunch of novels to understand the whole deal.

The "but" makes it sound like it's not the bare minimum of what they should be doing. :P