1. #50941
    Quote Originally Posted by xmirrors View Post
    A lot of healers take the "damage first, heal second" mindset. I even saw a guide talking about how to minimize healing while maximizing damage.

    It's a huge problem I think. A healer's role should always be to heal, and I am definitely not a fan of this design approach.
    I think healers should have a better DPS rotation and it should remain the way it is.
    FFXIV can't handle actual healer fights. Game is way too scripted for that and that will never change.

  2. #50942
    Heres what you learn as a very scared healer from every guide in existence.

    YOU MUST DPS. IF YOU DONT DPS YOU ARE THE WORST PLAYER AND EVERYONE WILL MOCK YOU BEHIND YOUR BACK IN DISCORD.

    You also get taught things like this:

    If the person isnt going to die in the next global cooldown, you should be dpsing.

    Finally, we all learn that 'freecure' is a trap. Which is legit (at least in terms of story healing). So its not all terrifyingly negative.

    Bovinity nailed it. And im hoping some of it comes from my crying and weeping about it on this forum. But more than likely it comes from having played a healer in game. We are expected to not only heal perfectly keeping everyone up, but also dps, also know every mechanic in a fight before we've ever seen it (particularly when you get into late SB and shb where there are so many more 1 shot or stacking 2 shot mechanics in story dungeons... let alone trials). If we screw up, there are 2 dps classes that can bail us out (lets hope theyre one of the two dps spots). If anyone else screws up, its our job to bail the group out. Dps wanna tank a tankbuster... why not? Im sure chain curing them over ressing the tank is an important use of my resources. Sure, maybe in low level content... possibly (i say with the absolute benefit of hindsight)? But as a new player running titan for the first time and seeing how fast health bars can sometimes drop when people get hit by cleaves or avoidable orange markers...

    On Ego Whm... I dont think ive YET to fail to apologise to the group over any single death or wipe. I might as well have "im so dumb. Im SO sorry!' macrod.

    The truth is we all get a bit of leeway. DPS get to die with impunity. Tanks... probably get something. Though the last time i cried about this i did learn i know nothing about what poor tanks have to deal with in terms of expectations. Healers get the leeway of everyone saying 'dont worry dude! it probably wasnt your fault' now and again.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-10-27 at 01:27 PM.

  3. #50943
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    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    Heres what you learn as a very scared healer from every guide in existence.

    YOU MUST DPS. IF YOU DONT DPS YOU ARE THE WORST PLAYER AND EVERYONE WILL MOCK YOU BEHIND YOUR BACK IN DISCORD.

    You also get taught things like this:

    If the person isnt going to die in the next global cooldown, you should be dpsing.

    Finally, we all learn that 'freecure' is a trap. Which is legit (at least in terms of story healing). So its not all terrifyingly negative.

    Bovinity nailed it. And im hoping some of it comes from my crying and weeping about it on this forum. But more than likely it comes from having played a healer in game. We are expected to not only heal perfectly keeping everyone up, but also dps, also know every mechanic in a fight before we've ever seen it (particularly when you get into late SB and shb where there are so many more 1 shot or stacking 2 shot mechanics in story dungeons... let alone trials). If we screw up, there are 2 dps classes that can bail us out (lets hope theyre one of the two dps spots). If anyone else screws up, its our job to bail the group out. Dps wanna tank a tankbuster... why not? Im sure chain curing them over ressing the tank is an important use of my resources. Sure, maybe in low level content... possibly (i say with the absolute benefit of hindsight)? But as a new player running titan for the first time and seeing how fast health bars can sometimes drop when people get hit by cleaves or avoidable orange markers...

    On Ego Whm... I dont think ive YET to fail to apologise to the group over any single death or wipe. I might as well have "im so dumb. Im SO sorry!' macrod.

    The truth is we all get a bit of leeway. DPS get to die with impunity. Tanks... probably get something. Though the last time i cried about this i did learn i know nothing about what poor tanks have to deal with in terms of expectations. Healers get the leeway of everyone saying 'dont worry dude! it probably wasnt your fault' now and again.
    I agree with you. I've been castigated often even when I knew damn well it wasn't my fault. Sometimes it is my fault and I apologize when it is. I've kept DPS up in dungeons and have been kept up in turn by healers in dungeons, as well. I know what you and Bovinity Divinity have said is not universal as there are always exceptions, but it's certainly pervasive.

  4. #50944
    https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

    Did they update most of these recently? You can near-literally report someone for ANYTHING at this point...Can't leave a group, can't do emotes...Exaggerating slightly but man these rules are encouraging heavily anti-social behaviour - never talk to strangers, never talk to anyone you need to kick from a party. It's simply risky if the updated rules are to be followed strictly. Funnily enough, I can use them against ANYONE I don't like, some of these prohibited activities are so common, and not all of them are exactly harassment.

  5. #50945
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    There's definitely a feeling of, "Just don't interact with people." when I play XIV. I've seen people unironically claiming harassment or "distress" over things like someone emoting at their pet without asking permission first and other such nonsense.

    I've always said that while WoW is more outwardly toxic, at least it's just straightforward and direct. Maybe someone is an asshole to you, but at least it's just an honest interaction between you and them. Whereas XIV feels like some weird dystopian "We Happy Few" situation of enforced happiness, where everyone is outwardly "Teehee I'm so kawaii uwu ^_^" while sneaking off to report you to the thought police.
    I've never gotten into trouble in FFXIV and will likely continue be so, but this just confirms I should just silently remove people without trying to talk. But damn, now I can report friends for trading me during teleports...Or those tanks pulling 4th Legion mobs in Bozjan areas, on top of other FATEs to trigger CEs. Godslaying was not enough for warriors of Light, it's time to slay all common sense and fellow players!

  6. #50946
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    I've never gotten into trouble in FFXIV and will likely continue be so, but this just confirms I should just silently remove people without trying to talk. But damn, now I can report friends for trading me during teleports...Or those tanks pulling 4th Legion mobs in Bozjan areas, on top of other FATEs to trigger CEs. Godslaying was not enough for warriors of Light, it's time to slay all common sense and fellow players!
    I don't know. Just glancing at it, 90% of it reads as "Just don't be a c**t to other players" in the widest way possible. Such speech is used a lot nowadays to avoid possible future issues, and it gives them a lot of leeway on how to enforce it. I always do just the normal interactions / emotes just as I did in WoW and never had any issues. But I also don't really feel the need to spam other people or be an asshole to them (like pulling mobs on top of them to kill them). Though, admittedly, I only play for a few months and haven't even finished ShB yet, so maybe it's more strict around max level content.

    I also heard this may be different from region to region, while EU is more relaxed, some people in the US are using it a lot more - as Bovinity calls it, the thought police.

  7. #50947
    Quote Originally Posted by Frostfred View Post
    I don't know. Just glancing at it, 90% of it reads as "Just don't be a c**t to other players" in the widest way possible. Such speech is used a lot nowadays to avoid possible future issues, and it gives them a lot of leeway on how to enforce it. I always do just the normal interactions / emotes just as I did in WoW and never had any issues. But I also don't really feel the need to spam other people or be an asshole to them (like pulling mobs on top of them to kill them). Though, admittedly, I only play for a few months and haven't even finished ShB yet, so maybe it's more strict around max level content.

    I also heard this may be different from region to region, while EU is more relaxed, some people in the US are using it a lot more - as Bovinity calls it, the thought police.
    Funny parts of these rules are when it comes to ERP - ERP is okay, if done between two consenting adults in a private place. Unless someone makes their way to your private housing, darkest depths of the cellar and sees 2 consenting adults ERPing. Because then it is reportable. This wording they had for this part guarantees few colourful fellows from official forums to scour all Balmung housing areas to continue their crusade with renewed resolve. Also the social norm adjustment for enforcing per datacenter makes me smirk - US norms for US, Japanese norms for Japanese datacenters...But EU? Which country? Or do they think all Europe is identical?

  8. #50948
    -Expressions that provoke or belittle another person, such as excessive criticism, negation/ridicule
    -Expressions that compel a playing style
    This is why I don't call people out because it could very easily fall into "excessive criticism" or 'compelling a playing style'. I was telling someone I miss the part of WoW's toxicity that had little tolerance for inconsiderate players. People in FFXIV just don't seem to give AF, which I suppose is why the "you don't pay my sub" meme is popular. WoW seemed to have more of a sense of 'everyone's time here is important, we don't put up with people wasting it'.

    Refers to an act of obstructive behavior such as using specific skills in an unintended manner or taking advantage of battle mechanics to interfere with the gameplay of other players.
    Rescue gets removed when?

    Intentional leaving or disconnection
    I thought it was odd I never saw anyone bail on duties, now I know why. Seems unnecessary in most content since finding a new member is relatively quick, I would think it'd mostly be an issue in the difficulty modes.
    "We must now recognize that the greatest threat of freedom for us all is if we go back to eating ourselves out from within." - John Anderson

  9. #50949
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Rescue gets removed when?
    A friend tried to kill me with Rescue once in the past. I proceeded to Rescue her every single time in Syrcus Tower, to the 2nd boss electric fields to incapacitate her for the entire fight as consequence of her feeble attempt. RIP innocent fun between friends which does not exactly ruin the AFK-fest fight. I understand why they don't like it, but I guess I am a fan of practical jokes between close friends...

    Just hoping I can remain unpunished for advicing people, even when they are reluctant to accept any kind of help. After all, disregarding opinions is now punishable offense...

  10. #50950
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Yep, wiped on the first pull in Sohm Al because the WHM kept spamming Holy until the tank died. I'm still not used to healers not being second on enmity (and not being able to reduce my own). I've gone from, "Quick, save the healer!" to "Crap, I'm next."

    Though the worst one to date was still the healer who let the party wipe because they were too busy flirting with the tank in party chat to do anything else.
    This is the kind of stuff that should be called out and even reported, if they're doing it purposely. If the actions of the person is directly and negatively affecting your groups ability to complete the content, that's harassment, and therefore a completely valid reason to boot them from the party.

    Given the game's policy on "toxicity" I never say anything. I should be as upset or more with the OT who was basically just a 5th DPS. He was being told in chat to turn on his tank stance. -_-
    First, see above.

    Second, there are ways to call someone out without being toxic. You can be cordial and Asking someone to do the job they signed up for (tanking, healing, DPS'ing) is not toxic, that's accountability. If they're actively not doing the job they signed up for and adversely impacting your groups ability to complete the content, they're the "toxic" ones. Especially, if you're literally unable to complete the content because of what they're doing or not doing.

    I generally have a lot of sympathy for those roles because I've struggled with both, but I also come from years of playing hybrid classes in WoW where I'm used to keeping an eye out for situations where I may need to off-tank or off-heal.
    I sympathize with them too. Everyone was a newb at one point and had to learn how to play their role effectively. Someone truly doing their best to learn and play, but are just doing badly because they don't know any better, is not being toxic and SHOULD be helped and coached but they don't need to be treated with kid gloves either. Just don't be an asshole about it. HELP them, don't berate them.

    My go to is to look at target-of-target, see who the new 'tank' is, and try to keep them alive. What I've noticed in FFXIV so far is if the tank dies the healers just seem dumbfounded, like they don't know what to do next. Healers will more often than not let both DPS die while they res & heal up the tank when if they'd just kept healing the DPS everything would've been fine.
    You're obviously a veteran. Some folks, for whatever reason (they're new, they don't pay attention, who knows....), don't know how powerful healers actually are or how far/long a healer can carry a non-tank through damage. Some people are either still learning those things, or they are horrible under pressure and just freeze up when shit hits the fan. Some people will grow out of that, some won't.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by xmirrors View Post
    A lot of healers take the "damage first, heal second" mindset. I even saw a guide talking about how to minimize healing while maximizing damage.

    It's a huge problem I think. A healer's role should always be to heal, and I am definitely not a fan of this design approach.
    I don't disagree, really.

    My mentality with ANY caster is ABC. Always Be Casting. If no one needs healing, DPS, if someone needs healing, heal them. If you're a DPS caster....do your job! Just don't ever stand there doing nothing, and don't stand there ONLY healing someone when they're already at full health or barely missing any.

    It can take some time to figure out that balance, and while you're learning that, go ahead and focus on healing...but at least throw your instant cast DoT's on the enemies.

  11. #50951
    Wow is definitely more toxic than FF14, but FF14 allows people to weaponize the ToS for the smallest thing. Not sure which is worse. I think I'd rather have some clown lose his mind toward me than get reported for a trivial thing. But as mentioned above, FF14 makes me not want to talk to people in general. I say hello when joining a group, and thanks for the group when its over.

  12. #50952
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    While this does leave a lot of room for minor instances to be punished, I feel like this falls on whether you trust the GMs to make the right calls or not. I mean has anyone here actually been punished for saying something like "I need heals" or "Put your tank stance on"?

    Also how often were people chatting in random groups anyways? In WoW and in FF14 people usually don't talk much. The difference is that in WoW, when they do talk it's usually to say something dickish.

    I really don't think it will be a problem and if it does become a problem then I think the community with be upset and they'll change or clarify it.

  13. #50953
    I've never been harassed in WoW or seen people actually get harassed in WoW. Sure, people are curt and use language, but I never really saw people having a vendetta against each other. It's mostly just people calling out a problem trying to get it fixed ASAP so they can move on with their lives. "Hey scrub, stop standing in fire" or "tank you suck, kicked", but nobody bending over backwards to have it out for another person.

    Katchii and Bovinity hit the nail on the head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The best simile I can come up with would be that, to me, WoW is like walking through a bad neighborhood that gives you a "bad" vibe, but getting harassed very little, if at all, by people and overall the people are good...they're just rough around the edges. You really only get harassed when you're directly affecting and genuinely upsetting someone. FFXIV is like a nice neighborhood where you get a generally good vibe and the people are pretty nice in passing and seem overly positive, but when interacting with them directly, they're pretty entitled assholes who get triggered over extremely minor and stupid shit.
    As for FFXIV, I hardly ever use the ingame chat to seriously communicate with people. If I hop into a raid group, then the most communication we're going to have is "switch to discord" and then we move to discord and that is where the chewing out takes place, out of sight of SE.

  14. #50954
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakhath View Post
    Wow is definitely more toxic than FF14, but FF14 allows people to weaponize the ToS for the smallest thing. Not sure which is worse. I think I'd rather have some clown lose his mind toward me than get reported for a trivial thing. But as mentioned above, FF14 makes me not want to talk to people in general. I say hello when joining a group, and thanks for the group when its over.
    In my experience, the only people that truly have issues with the ToS and get reported over things are assholes truly pushing things or saying things that are truly against not only the words in the ToS but also the spirit of it.

    I know this is anecdotal, but it still serves as evidence that just talking to people and doing what you would normally do in a situation where you "need" to say something won't always get you in trouble. I've been playing since before 2.0, and have called people out, given advice, kicked people from the group, reported people for harassment, even gotten into verbal confrontations with groups over stuff, but have never gotten warnings or suspensions. IMO, the secret has been to using neutral/ not aggressive language without resorting to name calling, qualifying my statements where necessary, and overall just treating everyone like a person (ie with respect).

    Again, in my experience, it's the folks who are overly direct, condescending, name calling, disrespectful and just plain rude that get in trouble with the ToS.

    I'm sure others have experiences both similar and different from mine, but my experience does mean I don't subscribe to this notion that the game is just full of thought police that do nothing but try and get other people in trouble for perceived injustices...or whatever. I don't think FFXIV is necessarily filled with more sensitive people than WoW, I just think the more stringent ToS means the players can essentially demand more respect and hold people accountable to their behavior better than WoW.

    It honestly just feels like SE is a somewhat overbearing parent yelling at their two children to "BE NICE!" while they play together and WoW is the super relaxed one that is essentially fine with whatever is going on as long as they're not breaking anything or killing each other.

  15. #50955
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    In my experience, the only people that truly have issues with the ToS and get reported over things are assholes truly pushing things or saying things that are truly against not only the words in the ToS but also the spirit of it.

    I know this is anecdotal, but it still serves as evidence that just talking to people and doing what you would normally do in a situation where you "need" to say something won't always get you in trouble. I've been playing since before 2.0, and have called people out, given advice, kicked people from the group, reported people for harassment, even gotten into verbal confrontations with groups over stuff, but have never gotten warnings or suspensions. IMO, the secret has been to using neutral/ not aggressive language without resorting to name calling, qualifying my statements where necessary, and overall just treating everyone like a person (ie with respect).

    Again, in my experience, it's the folks who are overly direct, condescending, name calling, disrespectful and just plain rude that get in trouble with the ToS.

    I'm sure others have experiences both similar and different from mine, but my experience does mean I don't subscribe to this notion that the game is just full of thought police that do nothing but try and get other people in trouble for perceived injustices...or whatever. I don't think FFXIV is necessarily filled with more sensitive people than WoW, I just think the more stringent ToS means the players can essentially demand more respect and hold people accountable to their behavior better than WoW.

    It honestly just feels like SE is a somewhat overbearing parent yelling at their two children to "BE NICE!" while they play together and WoW is the super relaxed one that is essentially fine with whatever is going on as long as they're not breaking anything or killing each other.
    I figured this would be the response to my statement as it has when myself or others have said it in the past, and that's fine. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but this community is soft because they're allowed to report anything that they might take as a slight, regardless if it really is or not. Real harassment should be 100 percent reported because a lot of people use this game, or others like it, as an escape from whatever issues they have going on in real life, but people that report things they just don't like are just as bad as people that flagrantly break the rules. The one example that I always remember when thinking about this is a leveling dungeon duty I had about 6 months ago where I was the dps and tank was frankly awful. I said a lot of things at my monitor but nothing in game, but it wasn't her poor play that annoyed me the most, it was the constant stopping and having discussions instead of moving through the dungeon. Twice during Wanderers Palace, she would brag about having reported people in the past and would stop for over a minute at a time in between pulls to just talk about banal shit. I know this is an extreme outlier, but we are the sum of our experiences and that one is forever etched in my memory.

  16. #50956
    No more prefered servers, fuck me and trying to level all races/jobs to 80 before endwalker

  17. #50957
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyre View Post
    No more prefered servers, fuck me and trying to level all races/jobs to 80 before endwalker
    If you were starting fresh, I don't think even WITH the Road to 70 buff from a preferred server you would have been able to do it. But also, that buff only works until 70, you'd still have to get them all from 70-80 in that time frame which would be a pretty mean feat in itself.

  18. #50958
    Quote Originally Posted by Leyre View Post
    No more prefered servers, fuck me and trying to level all races/jobs to 80 before endwalker
    This close to the expansion, you're better off waiting to see if preferred servers come with Endwalker launch since the buff will almost certainly be recreated as Road to 80.

  19. #50959
    Quote Originally Posted by Saradain View Post
    Funny parts of these rules are when it comes to ERP - ERP is okay, if done between two consenting adults in a private place. Unless someone makes their way to your private housing, darkest depths of the cellar and sees 2 consenting adults ERPing. Because then it is reportable. This wording they had for this part guarantees few colourful fellows from official forums to scour all Balmung housing areas to continue their crusade with renewed resolve. Also the social norm adjustment for enforcing per datacenter makes me smirk - US norms for US, Japanese norms for Japanese datacenters...But EU? Which country? Or do they think all Europe is identical?
    I didn't talk about different rules in different regions, but about people using them and the reporting system differently. But it's just hearsay. All I can say from personal experience is, that in my admittedly fairly short time I haven't seen or heard from anyone being reported or banned for normal stuff like kicking people that are AFK or giving advice to others in dungeons on my DC. Same for my brother, who plays a while longer than me.

  20. #50960
    There's no 'one size fits all' approach but dumb corporations insist on acting like there is because they're mostly staffed by sheltered individuals who think and act like anyone who is a little rough around the edges is a terrible person worthy of punishment.

    Much like how here in the UK, if you have a 'rough' accent there's a lot of subtle and sometimes blatant discrimination from those raised to talk 'properly'.

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