Was Sylvanas a good warchief?

[darkoms]

that is literally what NOT happened. again, you are the one who didn't read the book, i mean, you even said he didn't fight personally, proving you didn't read the book or didn't read properly.

Besides Varian fought with the power of a wild god, "in-explicit focus and unyielding vigor"



The alliance does that all the time, they always win by some kind of eternal things, all the time, they won at ashenvale because Goldrin bless, they won before because the horde fought itself, dalaran help then in theramore, so on and so on.


ah yes, they writers are inclinded to do thigns FOR THE HORDE, just how they made the horde lost their plan in the war of thorns, making then burn the tree instead of conquering

If it was not by elune holding saurfang hand malfurion would be death too, so stop saying nonsense about azshara, at least sylvanas did a deal with ehr that also cost horde navy.



Saurfang is an orc that was fighting in the battle, there is no problem in him being in the fight helping

lets jsut gloss over the fact that alliance characters ahve god level powers shall we?? pretty sure if he wasn't like that sylvanas could ahve dealt with him



there is no formal duel, besides, yes, see how its dumb to keep calling out how the alliance didn't "destroy/desmatled the horde because the wirters didn't want to"?

is a bs argument


yeah, losing the orcish racial leader and the other leaders already distrusting sylvanas, they were totally fine.

.

Nope, majority of the horde face against Garrosh, alliance won shit back in MOP



my dude, stormwind almost lost by a bunch of gnolls, and no, it was not a huge army, neither had ogres, they only came later


you know this is just ONE azerite tank right? THIS is the one build from the alliance plans, but the horde already did azerite war machine before this one, in lrodaeron



im sure the sip will do some zap zap and the void lords, who are hard as argus rocks, will be destroyed as easily.

- - - Updated - - -



By saying if it was not by the writers the alliance would have won/dismantled the horde or other nonsenses. if they "keep true" with the lore, yada yada, and this is false, there is no way the alliance could do that if they follow up the lore, period.

Give me a quote? Because I remember exactly that he was full of energy and only started to get tired after he started fighting Varian (I have no doubt that he participated in the battle before that, and did not sit out somewhere in a safe place, I just mean that he did not fight, that he was tired by the time he met Varian). And can you prove that without the buff of the wild god, Garrosh would have defeated Varian (forgot to ask you in the previous answer)? The book clearly shows that they are equal in skill and Varian won because he did not get tired. Goldrinn did not enhance his skills or strength in any way. Yes, Goldrinn's strength kept Varian from getting tired, as I said.
Can you stop passing off your fantasies as canon? My god, I'm arguing with both Sylvanas' fanboy and Garrosh's fanboy at the same time.

What? Once again, what? When was the Alliance first to use external items? My God, the Alliance ALREADY won this battle, the duel between Varian and Garrosh did not affect anything at all, why do you constantly mention it? Once again, we see in 8.1 that the Alliance is defeating the Horde without a civil war within them. Lol, Theramore fell due in large part to Thalen's betrayal, and are you complaining that Ronin helped Jaina?


Oh yeah, the poor Horde that was allowed to destroy the enemy's capital and commit genocide to the Night Elves, and then not be punished for it. Elune literally prevents Tyrande from taking revenge and killing Sylvanas, and then says that Tyrande must choose revenge or renewal. The demigods and gods are adjusting to Sylvanas so she can continue to exist and are you complaining that she lost her plan? Lol, the Alliance wins in 8.1, Azshara intervened and already in 8.3 the combined forces of the Alliance and the Horde insurgents have no chance against the forces of Sylvanas (who are also the only ones who can defeat the forces of the Old God) and you want me to stop mentioning it? Because apparently the forces of the Horde suffered MUCH less from Azshara's actions, and the Horde fleet at that time was smaller than the Alliance fleet, so the damage to them was less, no?


Saurfang is an orc who accidentally came in time and threw an ax in his back, so yes, no problem. And if you don't really want to argue, maybe you shouldn't have started this thread with the questions what if?
Again, you are literally offering to nerf Malfurion so that Sylvanas can win. What is this if not fanboy?


You literally started this stupid thing with what if, and now complain when you can't find a counterargument? Pathetic

Well, maybe then Sylvanas shouldn't have acted like a stupid cunt? Saurfang warned her that she was the leader of the entire Horde, not just the Forsaken, and her actions represented the Horde. But Sylvanas acted like she was the leader of the Scourge and this had consequences.


So? How does this contradict my words? Volgin helped Varian defeat Garrosh, yes.


A huge army of gnolls led by an experienced leader, there is nothing strange about that. I mean, the Horde's army outnumbered Stormwind significantly, and weren't there any other ogre mages besides Chogall?

Then why did the Horde even need the Alliance blueprints if they themselves could create such a thing?) Or is this thing more advanced than the tank in Lordaeron? If so, then all the rules. The Horde can craft an Azerite tank on its own, but cannot craft an improved version of it without the Alliance blueprints.

Well, it's easier to believe than goblin technology

[Mehrunes]

Words that Sylvanas' fanboys will never recognize

Imagine being so offended by a fictional character even existing that you start rejecting reality itself, all the while you've convinced yourself to be right no matter what, writing all the evidence to the contrary off with some infirm railing about ermahgerd muh fanboyhs, thinking this magically vindicates you. Sorry to burst your bubble of self-aggrandizement, but by this metric most of humankind are your Sylvanas' fanboys boogeyman.

Because these words you instantly latched onto just because they confirm your bias and salt you have for Sylvanas are objectively wrong. The Horde did gain multiple new members under Sylvanas at the very least. That's literally not nothing. And most people would be able to deduce as much even if they weren't aware of WoW until then, because the goddamn fact that something (like new members) are not nothing is something even a toddler would spot. And not even one with all its faculties intact.

Again, as I pointed out in the original post, we are not comparing motives, but actions. Did her actions benefit the Horde in the long term or harm?

Actually, your original post mentioned nothing about the long term. And the funny thing is that by narrowing it down to the long term you only shot yourself in the foot even further. Because contrary to what you convinced yourself of your grasp on lore is even flimsier than your grasp on what a positive claim is. Because the long term effect of Sylvanas' reign was that the Horde ended up being the stronger faction, to the point the Alliance wouldn't have won against it in a straight fight in Orgrimmar even with a bunch of Horde traitors aiding them. And to the point that even Alliance leaders themselves were talking about how it's only the Horde that is strong enough to face N'Zoth in an open conflict.

Funnily enough it's these exact two tangents that started the whole discussion between you and "ermahgerd Salvoinis fenbuys" in the other thread, which lead you to open this thread once you realized you had no counterarguments to, you know, the long term effects of Sylvanas' reign. Because all your retorts to this fact were "but at X moment before the end of the war Alliance had the upper hand!!1!", as if that somehow negated the state of things at the end. I.e. you're so devoid of arguments that you started eating your own tail.

I'm talking about the fact that usually the Horde uses some kind of external things, and then this is somehow compensated by the Alliance. The Alliance itself never tries to do something like this first. If you read the comics and the book about Varian, you would understand why he chose him.

Except you just added the tangent about Horde doing so first just now. It was nowhere in your prior comments on this subject. Because this claim of yours was blatantly false and instead of admitting it you're moving the goalposts by circa 50 light years in order to desperately save face. And since you know squat about the lore, this only backfired. Because one of your examples was Theramore. Where the Horde used the Focusing Iris only at the very end (and the act of attacking unaffiliated Blue Dragons itself is neither here nor there in regards to the Alliance-Horde balance). Meanwhile the Alliance was aided by three different neutral factions before the Horde even made it to Theramore. Would you look at that, they did try something like this first.

Yes, just as we noticed, writers are much more inclined to do things for the Horde. The whole world becomes dull so that Sylvanas's plans work, Odin forgets about her, the wild gods do not care about the destruction of the world tree, and so on. But I pointed out to you that from a Watsonian perspective, the Horde was weaker than the Alliance prior to Azshara's intervention. Humble yourself.

And Alliance was weaker prior to their victory at Dazar'alor (to the point that Blizzard called even Lordaeron a Horde victory in order to justify making the Alliance win at Dazar'alor). Which was only achieved by the Zandalari and the Horde force aiding them acting like lobotomized buffoons. Not to mention the multiple asspulls that were required to make the Alliance even survive Lordaeron. Somehow you're completely hush hush about it, ye humble master of lore

Also, the Wild Gods never expressed any care about Teldrassil before. It's almost as if it was just a circa 12 year old failed vanity project of Fandral that even Malfurion was against. As for Odyn, as had been pointed out to you multiple times, Odyn was a lunatic that acted only in ways that satiated his Valor fetish, to the point he almost doomed the world on a whim, making the idea he'd have gone after Sylvanas completely baseless. Even more so since he was still locked in his asylum at that moment in time.

EXACTLY, she would have died there if it hadn't been for Saurfang's intervention. Or if Tyrande hadn't really been holed up in Stormwind.

Which is why Malfurion was running away from Sylvanas throughout the entirety of A Good War.

Voljin helped the Alliance defeat Garrosh, so it would be more correct. Yet it was the Alliance who won this war and it was the Horde capital that was taken by storm.

Oh, yes. The Alliance won that war so hard they let the Horde keep most of its conquests and officially ceded Azshara in return from the Horde simply withdrawing from Ashenvale. A true victor behavior right there. In Bizarro world.

A huge army of orcs and ogres against Stormwind, which because of its pride did not want to ask for help from other kingdoms, did not have normal protection from the Warlocks of the Horde because Sargeras captured Medivh, and there were almost no other mages, and at the same time the king died because he trusted Garona, has Guldan taken control of her? Yes, I think it was a pretty fair war.

Except only the Horde's vanguard was even on Azeroth during the First War. The main force arrived only after Stormwind already fell.

Again, FOR ANY REASON I think the Horde buildings are not as durable as the Legion buildings. Didn't the night elf ballista destroy the gate in Osde of Orgrimmar?

Now spot the difference between a gate and entire cities. Because, in case you already deliberately forgot your weak-ass point, this while sub-topic started with you touting the Vindicaar as destroyer of entire cities with squat to

Oh yes, the technology of the Iron Horde was incredibly impressive, I think they could create their own TARDIS and destroy the Void Lords.

Would you look at that, no real arguments yet again. How quaint.

[darkoms]

Imagine being so offended by a fictional character even existing that you start rejecting reality itself, all the while you've convinced yourself to be right no matter what, writing all the evidence to the contrary off with some infirm railing about ermahgerd muh fanboyhs, thinking this magically vindicates you. Sorry to burst your bubble of self-aggrandizement, but by this metric most of humankind are your Sylvanas' fanboys boogeyman.

Because these words you instantly latched onto just because they confirm your bias and salt you have for Sylvanas are objectively wrong. The Horde did gain multiple new members under Sylvanas at the very least. That's literally not nothing. And most people would be able to deduce as much even if they weren't aware of WoW until then, because the goddamn fact that something (like new members) are not nothing is something even a toddler would spot. And not even one with all its faculties intact.




Actually, your original post mentioned nothing about the long term. And the funny thing is that by narrowing it down to the long term you only shot yourself in the foot even further. Because contrary to what you convinced yourself of your grasp on lore is even flimsier than your grasp on what a positive claim is. Because the long term effect of Sylvanas' reign was that the Horde ended up being the stronger faction, to the point the Alliance wouldn't have won against it in a straight fight in Orgrimmar even with a bunch of Horde traitors aiding them. And to the point that even Alliance leaders themselves were talking about how it's only the Horde that is strong enough to face N'Zoth in an open conflict.

Funnily enough it's these exact two tangents that started the whole discussion between you and "ermahgerd Salvoinis fenbuys" in the other thread, which lead you to open this thread once you realized you had no counterarguments to, you know, the long term effects of Sylvanas' reign. Because all your retorts to this fact were "but at X moment before the end of the war Alliance had the upper hand!!1!", as if that somehow negated the state of things at the end. I.e. you're so devoid of arguments that you started eating your own tail.




Except you just added the tangent about Horde doing so first just now. It was nowhere in your prior comments on this subject. Because this claim of yours was blatantly false and instead of admitting it you're moving the goalposts by circa 50 light years in order to desperately save face. And since you know squat about the lore, this only backfired. Because one of your examples was Theramore. Where the Horde used the Focusing Iris only at the very end (and the act of attacking unaffiliated Blue Dragons itself is neither here nor there in regards to the Alliance-Horde balance). Meanwhile the Alliance was aided by three different neutral factions before the Horde even made it to Theramore. Would you look at that, they did try something like this first.




And Alliance was weaker prior to their victory at Dazar'alor (to the point that Blizzard called even Lordaeron a Horde victory in order to justify making the Alliance win at Dazar'alor). Which was only achieved by the Zandalari and the Horde force aiding them acting like lobotomized buffoons. Not to mention the multiple asspulls that were required to make the Alliance even survive Lordaeron. Somehow you're completely hush hush about it, ye humble master of lore

Also, the Wild Gods never expressed any care about Teldrassil before. It's almost as if it was just a circa 12 year old failed vanity project of Fandral that even Malfurion was against. As for Odyn, as had been pointed out to you multiple times, Odyn was a lunatic that acted only in ways that satiated his Valor fetish, to the point he almost doomed the world on a whim, making the idea he'd have gone after Sylvanas completely baseless. Even more so since he was still locked in his asylum at that moment in time.




Which is why Malfurion was running away from Sylvanas throughout the entirety of A Good War.




Oh, yes. The Alliance won that war so hard they let the Horde keep most of its conquests and officially ceded Azshara in return from the Horde simply withdrawing from Ashenvale. A true victor behavior right there. In Bizarro world.




Except only the Horde's vanguard was even on Azeroth during the First War. The main force arrived only after Stormwind already fell.




Now spot the difference between a gate and entire cities. Because, in case you already deliberately forgot your weak-ass point, this while sub-topic started with you touting the Vindicaar as destroyer of entire cities with squat to




Would you look at that, no real arguments yet again. How quaint.

Sorry what? Are you proving that the Warchief who started the war just to feed his sugar daddy behind the Veil was not a bad Warchief and you are saying that I deny reality? You are also saying nonsense because you do not understand who exactly I do not like. I'm not against Sylvanas. There are no characters that I dislike because they are just characters. I don't like their fans. I don’t care about Arthas, but I don’t like Arthas fans when they say that Arthas was stronger than the Aspects / Old Gods / Titans, I don’t like Sylvanas fans when they say that Sylvanas (who screamed HORDE IS NOTHING) cares about the Horde or really is not sick bitch who committed genocide. Let me give you an example. There was a particularly funny person on the official forum, no matter what his name was. For several months in a row, foaming at the mouth, he argued that Sylvanas could not burn a tree (this was after the blizzard, but before the release of the video about Sylvanas) because it was not her style, because only an idiot would do it, but she is very clever. He said the tree was burned by Greymane, Malfurion, Azshara and whoever else. Do you know what happened when the video came out? He said that he was delighted with Sylvanas, because she behaved like a real dark lady, cruel and unprincipled. The problem is that you are all the same. All Sylvanas fans. This is why I despise you. You may know lore, but you will distort and misinterpret it so that it is convenient for you, you will change shoes as quickly as Sylvanas herself and you will justify all her actions, no matter how stupid or cartoonish villainous they are. You are not interested in lore. You are only interested in Sylvanas. And I have already told you 10 times that Sylvanas herself did literally nothing to get them to join her, except that she ordered the hero of the Horde to find allies. We're talking about Sylvanas's actions, not what happened under her command, because in this case Anduin automatically becomes an excellent king because allied races joined with him.


Sorry what? How else should you compare? In your opinion, if Sylvanas' actions were beneficial today, and tomorrow the Horde collapsed because of this, should we say that her actions were beneficial, not harmful? I understand that you are ready to justify any actions of your goddess, but let's not separate actions from consequences?

I opened this thread because the original thread did not deal with Sylvanas's actions as a leader at all and the question was only about her level of power. Unfortunately, you cannot live a day without praising her, and decided to do it in my thread about her and Malfurion. You very conveniently forget this (although I told you about it) in order to make it look bad. Stop embarrassing yourself, kid.

Is it because it's obvious? The Horde always uses these things first, I didn't think it needed to be specified separately. Ah, accusations again. Sylvanas' fanboys will never accept that their goddess is not as cool as they want to see her.

And that was before the Alliance annexed Coultiras, yes. Apparently Kul Tiras is just much more useful than Zandalar. Ah, these Blizzards who are trying to justify the Alliance's victories while depriving him of the Vindicaar and making Anduin an idiot who does not know about the plague. Damned Blizzard. I also don't understand why you grabbed onto Lordaeron so fiercely, if we see that in 8.1 the Alliance won and only Azshara's intervention saved the Horde from defeat. The Alliance did not ask Elune / Sargeras / Murmur to intervene between 8.0 and 8.1 to win, all that changed was the addition of Kultiras and the Zandalari. But of course such a fanboy of the Dark Lady will simply ignore it so that, God forbid, his great Horde does not look weak. Yes, the only problem is that Teldrassil had the blessings of the Aspects (you would know that if you read the books) and in the quest for the green essence, the green dragon mentions that the destruction of Teldrassil actually hurt the world. Once again, all you pointed out is that Odin could have given Aegis to Skovald and did not provide any proof that this could have happened, and completely ignore the fact that insane Odin completely ignores the fact that Sylvanas was trying to kill Eyir (essentially his property). Odin's madness is an argument FOR that he should have punished Sylvanas, not against. How many times will I explain such simple things to you? And I'm talking to you about the time of the Bfa, not the Legion, because only Sylvanas is dumb enough to put sticks in the wheels of her allies during the largest Legion invasion ever. One could have waited for the end of the war, but in the days of Bfa, he had no reason not to do anything.


Yes, and that's why when you approach them in the game, there are a bunch of dead Horde lying around, and Sylvanas is on her knees with 10% HP and screaming in pain.


Oh yes, the Alliance is in Orgrimmar and Varian is threatening the leaders of the Horde, a real victory for the Horde.


How does this contradict my words that there were more of them? Not to mention that the Dark Portal was right behind them and they could constantly receive reinforcements if needed.


Once again, the goal was for a bunch of heroes to infiltrate Antorus, as they always did before. A group of heroes go and kill the bad guys. But the point is not even that, the Vindicare Konencho cannot destroy Orgrimmar in one volley. I'm just saying he could do it slowly and the Horde wouldn't do anything about it (well, assuming other Alliance forces were protecting the Vindicaar from some kind of air attack).


It's absolutely ridiculous that you accuse me of lacking arguments, especially considering that Sergefied is openly trolling, saying that everything happened because the developers wanted it and that Sylvanas would win if she wanted to.



Oh, and it turns out you will now be responsible for him too? How cute. You know, actualy, I really do not like to participate in disputes about factions and especially Sylvanas, because I am much more interested in cosmology, magic, divine beings like the Titans, but you are talking such nonsense that I just cannot stop simply because I want to find out which one nonsense you will say.

[Rayaleith]

No. A leader does not have a secret agenda. Noone knew what Sylvanas was up to.

[Mehrunes]

What? Once again, what? When was the Alliance first to use external items? My God, the Alliance ALREADY won this battle, the duel between Varian and Garrosh did not affect anything at all, why do you constantly mention it? Once again, we see in 8.1 that the Alliance is defeating the Horde without a civil war within them. Lol, Theramore fell due in large part to Thalen's betrayal, and are you complaining that Ronin helped Jaina?

Thalen was still a member of the Horde. Which had been already pointed out to you. Which shows how you're such a vehement fanfiction peddler that you can't ever admit being wrong. And even if you weren't wrong, you'd still be comparing one goddamn Blood Elf to the Kirin'Tor, Sha'Tar and the leader of Blue Dragonflight. That's not exactly equivalent. Finally, Thalen's direct involvement in the fight was him trying to sabotage one of Theramore's gates. Which contributed absolutely squat, because the Horde wasn't even fighting a conventional fight there. And he was caught before he did any real damage.

As for Ashenvale, the Worgen were still not Alliance members at the time of the fight and you don't count them only because it's convenient to your argument that is so absolutely weak it collapses on itself even when you try propping it up with 50 layers of fallacious BS (vide the Theramore example where even your goalpost movement to "Horde did it first!!1!" was a misfire).

Well, maybe then Sylvanas shouldn't have acted like a stupid cunt? Saurfang warned her that she was the leader of the entire Horde, not just the Forsaken, and her actions represented the Horde. But Sylvanas acted like she was the leader of the Scourge and this had consequences.

That doesn't address the relevant part of @Syegfryed's post in any way.

So? How does this contradict my words? Volgin helped Varian defeat Garrosh, yes.

You mean aside from the part where you tried to use it as evidence of Alliance being the winner of that war despite losing a dozen zones? Or aside from the part where you're trying to portray it as only the Darkspear Rebellion needing the Alliance's help, without it working both ways?

A huge army of gnolls led by an experienced leader, there is nothing strange about that. I mean, the Horde's army outnumbered Stormwind significantly, and weren't there any other ogre mages besides Chogall?

Huge army of Gnolls is still an army of something as pathetic as Gnolls. Somehow you don't see Horde races falling to them. You also left out the part where Stormwind was also utterly ravaged by the shambling corpse of the Gurrubashi Empire. To the point that its leaders were praying for a miracle to save them from the Trolls. Which came in form of Medivh saving their asses at the last second.

Then why did the Horde even need the Alliance blueprints if they themselves could create such a thing?) Or is this thing more advanced than the tank in Lordaeron? If so, then all the rules. The Horde can craft an Azerite tank on its own, but cannot craft an improved version of it without the Alliance blueprints.

And this is just you not even reading your own sources, yet pretending you have a point. The Azerite machines in Arathi were first and foremost transports that could transform into weapons if needed. The Horde Azerite War Machine was not. Kinda obvious what the Horde copied. Yet when it comes to the weapon aspect itself the one at Lordaeron took on a much larger army and yet still delivered results like completely destroying Alliance's siege weapons and then went to town on its army. Meanwhile both Alliance and Horde machines in Arathi achieved squat, despite facing a smaller force. I.e. despite all your attempts at trying to use this as an example supporting your fantasies of Alliance's absolute supremacy, copying the Alliance only resulted in a downgrade in combat capacities for the Horde.

[darkoms]

Thalen was still a member of the Horde. Which had been already pointed out to you. Which shows how you're such a vehement fanfiction peddler that you can't ever admit being wrong. And even if you weren't wrong, you'd still be comparing one goddamn Blood Elf to the Kirin'Tor, Sha'Tar and the leader of Blue Dragonflight. That's not exactly equivalent. Finally, Thalen's direct involvement in the fight was him trying to sabotage one of Theramore's gates. Which contributed absolutely squat, because the Horde wasn't even fighting a conventional fight there. And he was caught before he did any real damage.

As for Ashenvale, the Worgen were still not Alliance members at the time of the fight and you don't count them only because it's convenient to your argument that is so absolutely weak it collapses on itself even when you try propping it up with 50 layers of fallacious BS (vide the Theramore example where even your goalpost movement to "Horde did it first!!1!" was a misfire).




That doesn't address the relevant part of @Syegfryed's post in any way.




You mean aside from the part where you tried to use it as evidence of Alliance being the winner of that war despite losing a dozen zones? Or aside from the part where you're trying to portray it as only the Darkspear Rebellion needing the Alliance's help, without it working both ways?




Huge army of Gnolls is still an army of something as pathetic as Gnolls. Somehow you don't see Horde races falling to them. You also left out the part where Stormwind was also utterly ravaged by the shambling corpse of the Gurrubashi Empire. To the point that its leaders were praying for a miracle to save them from the Trolls. Which came in form of Medivh saving their asses at the last second.




And this is just you not even reading your own sources, yet pretending you have a point. The Azerite machines in Arathi were first and foremost transports that could transform into weapons if needed. The Horde Azerite War Machine was not. Kinda obvious what the Horde copied. Yet when it comes to the weapon aspect itself the one at Lordaeron took on a much larger army and yet still delivered results like completely destroying Alliance's siege weapons and then went to town on its army. Meanwhile both Alliance and Horde machines in Arathi achieved squat, despite facing a smaller force. I.e. despite all your attempts at trying to use this as an example supporting your fantasies of Alliance's absolute supremacy, copying the Alliance only resulted in a downgrade in combat capacities for the Horde.

In Theramore, he was as a member of the Kirin Tor and was only allowed into Theramore because he was there on behalf of the Kirin Tor. And as I said, Thalen will compensate for Ronin's involvement. You would know this if you were reading books, not Wovpedia. And it's really funny to hear about fanfiction from someone who says the Horde won the war because Kalec doesn't care about the Horde. Yes, I think these are equal things and I still don't understand why you are so clinging to Kalec's involvement. Kalec would not have been there if the Horde hadn't attacked the blue dragons in the first place. Once again, the worgen LIVED THERE. The Night Elves HAVE THEM. Essentially, the Night Elf lands have become a second home for the worgen and do you expect the worgen to just ignore it? It seems to me that you have a lot in common with your goddess, because only a person with, uh, brains not of the first freshness could say such nonsense. And this despite the fact that they were already practically members of the Alliance (in fact, this battle became the final test for them). Now compare that to the magnataurs. Or the fact that goblins in Tanaris work much more closely with the Horde. If a race / faction willingly wants to help the Alliance or the Horde, there is nothing strange about it. This is not the same as kidnapping the children of magnataurs to use them as weapons because the Horde cannot win in fair battle.

And it seems to me it fits. The Horde would not be split if their Leaders were not crazy tyrants who use dishonest methods of warfare. Sylvanas knew which faction leader she was and didn't give a damn about it.

Sorry what? Loss of a dozen zones? Which ones, for example? Azshara that the Alliance hasn't used anyway? I simply point out to Sergifade that if he distorts the lore to make the horde look better, I will do the same for the Alliance. It was an equal partnership. Although, of course, I was amused by the nonsense that without Voljin, the Alliance would not have defeated Garrosh.

Lol, who determined this? You? Because you don't like gnolls? A huge army is still a huge army. If a million gnolls attack humans, you say no matter how many there were, are they still gnolls? Um, why did I have to mention this? How do you imagine that? I just had to cram it into the text? I mean, why don't you list all the Horde's defeats when you answer me? Seriously, sometimes you just say some crazy nonsense because you have nothing else to say. Do not disgrace yourself.

Ahhavphavphavhpavhphavh, sorry, I am very amused by how pompous you are trying to justify the fact that the Horde had to steal the plans of the Alliance to do something worthwhile.

[Syegfryed]

Except I didn't write that at all. Please quote where I said those exact words, because I agree you're talking about nonsense, completely and absolutely..

when you said the options of the alliance was to either the alliance putting an puppet leader in the horde or literaly genocide

i said the alliance could not do, either of those options, and you said "not with these writers:

they can't do neither of those options either.

Not with the current writers, no.

there is no reasons to the writers fuck up their own lore to do this nonsensical scenario where the alliance dismantle, genocide or control the horde with a puppet leader, this is daydreaming.

- - - Updated - - -

Give me a quote?

Can you stop passing off your fantasies as canon? My god, I'm arguing with both Sylvanas' fanboy and Garrosh's fanboy at the same time.

if you read the book you know it, and screaming other people are fanboys isn't going to amke your point valid

What? Once again, what? When was the Alliance first to use external items? My God, the Alliance ALREADY won this battle, the duel between Varian and Garrosh did not affect anything at all, why do you constantly mention it?

the power of a wild god is literally an external source that aid then, if youd din't notice, goldrin isn't a alliance character.

Once again, we see in 8.1 that the Alliance is defeating the Horde without a civil war within them. Lol, Theramore fell due in large part to Thalen's betrayal, and are you complaining that Ronin helped Jaina?

very brave of the alliance winning a war that the horde was not attempting to win

besides, even before that, alliance was losing, with Anduin stating that he had to send farmers next, only bytwist of fate and destiny they suddenly got the upperhand

thalen betrayal? are you..? what?? do you realize baine betrayed the horde here by warning jaina that they were going to attack theramore? like come on man

Oh yeah, the poor Horde that was allowed to destroy the enemy's capital and commit genocide to the Night Elves, and then not be punished for it

mind you, the alliance did the same with undercity/lordaeron, moot point

Elune literally prevents Tyrande from taking revenge and killing Sylvanas, and then says that Tyrande must choose revenge or renewal.

Sylvanas isn't a horde character anymore, so, again, not a valid point.

Saurfang is an orc who accidentally came in time and threw an ax in his back, so yes, no problem. And if you don't really want to argue, maybe you shouldn't have started this thread with the questions what if?

the orcish general who was mostly in charge of the battle? what he is doing into the fray amright?

Again, you are literally offering to nerf Malfurion so that Sylvanas can win. What is this if not fanboy?

rly funny, do you know youa re talkign with one of the most elf haters in this forum? and do you know what sylvanas is right?

the point is how every alliance elader have bs level of powers, that is not a problem, but if the horde does something "waow that is goign too far!"

You literally started this stupid thing with what if, and now complain when you can't find a counterargument? Pathetic

what?

So? How does this contradict my words? Volgin helped Varian defeat Garrosh, yes.

on the contrary, Varian helped vol'jin rebellion, and varian didn't win "against the horde" as Garrosh organization was something apart made of his loyalists.

A huge army of gnolls led by an experienced leader, there is nothing strange about that. I mean, the Horde's army outnumbered Stormwind significantly, and weren't there any other ogre mages besides Chogall?

only a few clans passed trough the portal in the first war, like bleeding hollow, blackrock, twillight hammer, and ogres amges were created leader by Gul'dan.

and a gnoll army leaded by an experienced leader, so scary

Then why did the Horde even need the Alliance blueprints if they themselves could create such a thing?) Or is this thing more advanced than the tank in Lordaeron? If so, then all the rules. The Horde can craft an Azerite tank on its own, but cannot craft an improved version of it without the Alliance blueprints.

maybe they wanted to do something different to see if it was better? maybe to build a bigger one? maybe to build one witht he same functions to mirror cause its in the same warfront? lots of reasons.

Well, it's easier to believe than goblin technology

with a few explosives goblins could blow up antorus inside out let alone the void lords.

- - - Updated - - -

Thalen was still a member of the Horde. Which had been already pointed out to you. Which shows how you're such a vehement fanfiction peddler that you can't ever admit being wrong. And even if you weren't wrong, you'd still be comparing one goddamn Blood Elf to the Kirin'Tor, Sha'Tar and the leader of Blue Dragonflight. That's not exactly equivalent. Finally, Thalen's direct involvement in the fight was him trying to sabotage one of Theramore's gates. Which contributed absolutely squat, because the Horde wasn't even fighting a conventional fight there. And he was caught before he did any real damage.

let alone how he ignorecompletely, the Baine betrayal warning the enemy of the upcoming attack

[Mehrunes]

maybe they wanted to do something different to see if it was better? maybe to build a bigger one? maybe to build one witht he same functions to mirror cause its in the same warfront? lots of reasons.

As I pointed out they are ignoring their own source. The war machines in Arathi are different from the one at Lordaeron and they were first and foremost transports that could transform into an offensive mode. Nothing of the sort has been mentioned for Horde's first Azerite War Machine so it's kinda obvious what the Horde copied. And since the one at Lordaeron took on a much larger army and still achieved greater results, from perspective of offensive capabilities copying the Alliance resulted in a downgrade, not something better.

let alone how he ignorecompletely, the Baine betrayal warning the enemy of the upcoming attack

Oh, yeah. I didn't even think of that, but if stealing the Focusing Iris from the Blue Dragonflight somehow works the Alliance getting help directly from within the Horde should also count. And this one happened days before the Horde even got to Theramore, let alone used the Focusing Iris-powered mana bomb. Now let's see where the goalposts will move now from "The Horde did it first".

The funny thing is that the Alliance has only ever survived a war with the Horde because the Horde broke into infighting and, more often than not, the Alliance had to team up with one of the Horde factions. That's precisely what happened in MoP, but somehow that still counts as fair and square Alliance victory (in which the "victor" ceded land to the "defeated party", because that's exactly what happens after wars) instead of the Alliance having to team up with other actors. That only counts when the Horde does it.

[Triceron]

when you said the options of the alliance was to either the alliance putting an puppet leader in the horde or literaly genocide

i said the alliance could not do, either of those options, and you said "not with these writers:

Yes, and I stand by that. The writers are the ones that control the overall narrative.

there is no reasons to the writers fuck up their own lore to do this nonsensical scenario where the alliance dismantle, genocide or control the horde with a puppet leader, this is daydreaming.

They're already fucking up the lore in plenty other ways, buddy. Wake up.

What are you actually defending here, the fantastic lore that got us two evil warchiefs and both Horde and Alliances most powerful leaders and heroes being easily kidnapped by flying minions?

Warcraft 3 established that factions can rise and fall and be completely reformed as a result. WoW has been written in a way where the writers wouldn't ever commit the Alliance or Horde from actually being victorious or defeated. All it amounts to are unanimously treated 'villains' being removed from power, with no lasting effects to the factions. That is a result of the writing.

If they know they have two factions stuck permanently because of gameplay reasons, then they shouldn't be writing in scenarios that imply outright victories could happen. We already know they can't pull the trigger. The whole debate of whether one could actually win over the other in the context of WoW is pointless to debate, and we'll never get something more hardcore like an Empire/Rebellion dynamic between the factions because the writers won't go in that direction. They want equal amounts red and blue.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, and I stand by that. The writers are the ones that control the overall narrative.

And is a nonsensical to just say "writers can do what they want", is not a good point as they can make anduin and sylvanas have a child

They can't do that and keep true with their lore, period it is the same scenario as the one i mention above, alliance does not have the power to do any of those things, never had, they creating a scenario for that, going against their own lore, for whatever reasons(that seems just to pamper the alliance fanbase) makes no sense

They're already fucking up the lore in plenty other ways, buddy. Wake up.

This is not an argument to keep doing it, neither an argument to do something that only benefits the alliance, for no reason at all

wake up, what the hell of a game this would be if any of the scenarios you said would come true, it make no sense.

What are you actually defending here, the fantastic lore that got us two evil warchiefs and both Horde and Alliances most powerful leaders and heroes being easily kidnapped by flying minions?

not comparable

Warcraft 3 established that factions can rise and fall and be completely reformed as a result.

wc3 =/= wow, and what was established that is completely different from the events you said

[Triceron]

And is a nonsensical to just say "writers can do what they want", is not a good point as they can make anduin and sylvanas have a child

How does saying these writers would not ever write either side having a complete victory equate to saying the 'writers can do what they want'?

Explain how you came to this assumption, considering I never once said the writers could do whatever they want.

My criticism of the writers is that considering the limitations of gameplay and the permanence of the factions, they should not be writing in faction wars that can never result in any substantial victory/loss scenario. And we know that factions can rise and fall through the RTS games, but not in the manner that WoW has set up so this whole 'fourth war' is nothing more than a joke and a poorly set up plot for the sake of drama. My criticism is that the writers CHOSE to set up a big war between them, while conveniently ignoring the giant space laser that the Alliance have, or having Anduin completely be oblivious to the fact that Sylvanas has the Blight at her disposal.

I'm not quite sure where you're logically jumping to 'writers can do whatever they want'

wake up, what the hell of a game this would be if any of the scenarios you said would come true, it make no sense.

Clue in. I was pointing out how the currently written faction war in BFA was so full of holes because we know superweapons already exist

The story was flimsy and full of holes, and I was poking more holes into what already existed, not trying to make more sense out of it. I think that the story is already too fucked up to redeem, and that they've already ignored huge setups they've introduced earlier that easily would have been resolved if the story was actually consistent. I mean they didn't even fucking explain how Azshara got her hands on the Tidestone. It just happened and was given no second thought.



The RTS games WERE ABLE to completely dismantle entire factions, while WoW can not. And when they write in a big ass war that implies that one side is going to go down, we know that it's not gonna happen and the whole story unfolding will be full of tons of holes, like what I pointed out above. There is no real history to World of Warcraft, because the writers are literally building it as they go. There's nothing long-term planned about this, and there's gaping holes in strategy and logic that ends up having to be explained in retrospect like how Sylvanas fucked up a bunch of her strategies throughout the entire BFA war, but it's okay since she was 'really working under the Jailer and wanted everyone to die anyways'. The whole BFA Fourth War shouldn't have existed in the first place, really. It was just an excuse to set up some flimsy plot going into Shadowlands.

As for 'The Alliance doesn't have the power to dismantle the Horde', they've had two complete opportunities to do so. The problem is that the Writers can't change the permanent positions of the Alliance and Horde because of gameplay reasons. Yet they have chosen to write stories involving two Warchiefs completely taken out, while having almost zero lasting effects to the Horde overall. And how does this play out lore-wise? The fall of a Warchief should be the fall of the Horde entirely because the Horde should not exist without its Warchief. That the writers ignored this completely shows that they aren't respecting what the lore has defined as the Horde, and the importance of the Warchief. This has been established by the fall of Orgrim, and how many splinter factions were born out of it. Thrall's Horde, Rend's Dark Horde, the Blackrock remnants that sided with the Legion during WC3, Cho'gall and the Twilights Hammer, as well as the Fel Orcs of Outland who retreated after Orgrim's defeat. Without a Warchief, there should be no Horde.

The fact is, WoW (and its writers) has not respected the title of Warchief, nor the actual Horde organization whatsoever. It's supposed to be a faction built around the singular voice of the Warchief. They tried to tell a more nuanced tale through Garrosh and now through Sylvanas, but honestly all it's shown that either the Horde player is a traitor to his Warchief, or the Warchief position itself is prone to exploitation and abusive leadership. After the Warchiefs are deposed, the Horde shouldn't even functionally exist any more. The races should have splintered and taken new sides under new leaders, as would be the sensible course of action. The whole Loyalty plotline was completely unable to achieve any goal beyond flavour-text. No splintering of Horde faction loyalists or non-loyalists, no long term affects whatsoever. If this happened in Warcraft 3? We'd be looking at a completely new faction, like how the Blood Elves split off from the Alliance or how the Forsaken split from the Scourge.

Warchief is a position earned by Blood and Honor; either through being appointed by the successor (Honor) or through Mak'gora challenge (Blood). Vol'jin and the Horde Council are two examples of how the current Horde doesn't even abide by these tennants any more. So by all means, the Horde that we have right now is literally just existing because of gameplay reasons, with the writers having fucked up the overall lore by introducing plots that go against the core values of the Horde organization, and the role of the Warchief. In respect to the classic Warcraft lore, no Warchief = no Horde. So whatever we have right now? It's a bastardization of what the Horde actually means. It shouldn't even be called the Horde any more, considering it's lost all real meaning or value to the original way the organization worked.

If we're ever to criticize the writers for 'doing whatever they want', then I think it's pretty clear that they've already done so, to the point where the whole concept of the Horde following the Warchief, 'Blood and Honor', the Warchief role itself, and the Mak'gora are pretty much rendered pointless by the writers. Any power given to the Horde is absolutely artificially based on gameplay requirements. That they have to have new allies because Alliance gets new allies; that they have to gain some territory because Alliance gains territory, that they have to incur a loss of a capital city because Alliance loses a capital city. They're just a mirror of the Alliance, and that's clearly due to game driven reasons. Lore-wise, they should have been completely dismantled after Garrosh's fall, and reformed as something completely new. And that the Alliance has taken no steps to take up the opportunity to completely dismantle the Horde is again due to the gameplay requirements of the Horde never being able to be taken out permanently.

[VladlTutushkin]

As I pointed out they are ignoring their own source. The war machines in Arathi are different from the one at Lordaeron and they were first and foremost transports that could transform into an offensive mode. Nothing of the sort has been mentioned for Horde's first Azerite War Machine so it's kinda obvious what the Horde copied. And since the one at Lordaeron took on a much larger army and still achieved greater results, from perspective of offensive capabilities copying the Alliance resulted in a downgrade, not something better.




Oh, yeah. I didn't even think of that, but if stealing the Focusing Iris from the Blue Dragonflight somehow works the Alliance getting help directly from within the Horde should also count. And this one happened days before the Horde even got to Theramore, let alone used the Focusing Iris-powered mana bomb. Now let's see where the goalposts will move now from "The Horde did it first".

The funny thing is that the Alliance has only ever survived a war with the Horde because the Horde broke into infighting and, more often than not, the Alliance had to team up with one of the Horde factions. That's precisely what happened in MoP, but somehow that still counts as fair and square Alliance victory (in which the "victor" ceded land to the "defeated party", because that's exactly what happens after wars) instead of the Alliance having to team up with other actors. That only counts when the Horde does it.

You do realise that by “defeating” Alliance or claiming to do so and by making it your sole goal on this forums you are not “winning” against any imaginary elves or dwarves but just making people say “If you such a winner then enjoy your victory” and just leaving the pointless competition where we are not even truly “competing” since history is written by a biased developer?

I just wanted to point that out.

Its like if you started boasting about winning a staged wrestling match when everybody knows it was rigged and on scenario rails, kinda just… what are you even trying to prove? You “won”, enjoy it, but you really did nothing to achieve this.

[Syegfryed]

How does saying these writers would not ever write either side having a complete victory equate to saying the 'writers can do what they want'?

Explain how you came to this assumption, considering I never once said the writers could do whatever they want.

what?!?! You said, that writters could do whatever they want by saying they are in control of everything

mind you, this whole discussion started with you saiong how the alliance should either put a puppet leader or genocide the horde, like they could, and blaming the writers because of that not happening.

My criticism of the writers is that considering the limitations of gameplay and the permanence of the factions, they should not be writing in faction wars that can never result in any substantial victory/loss scenario.

considerring the limitations of gameplay, lore and how the game functions, they can't write any faction having any subtantial victory/loss scenario

this isn't an singleplayer game, is a MMO with two sides, no one want to be on the loser side, people scream their lungs out and cry for their hearts content when something minor happens, do you think everyone would be fine with their factions suffering a major defeat to a point of being dismantled? again, be real.

My criticism is that the writers CHOSE to set up a big war between them, while conveniently ignoring the giant space laser that the Alliance have, or having Anduin completely be oblivious to the fact that Sylvanas has the Blight at her disposal.

the giant space laser is a shit thing that people in the alliance are acting like this is some sort of nuclear warhead or a world destruction nuke that means autowin

Did you actually played Legion? did you actually saw the power of that giant spaceship? you most used the ship to destroy rocks to get treasures and the big thing it did was to open a little whole in antorus, and thats it, it was never showed to destroy a city it never showed to genocide a nation, never, people assumed that.

The army of the light was fucked, the spaceship had lost almost their resources, they would not be any different from a azerite canon, simple isn't worth.

And again, even if the spaceship was a nuclear nuke, the horde didn't use the goblin cannon either, we are damn even.

The RTS games WERE ABLE to completely dismantle entire factions, while WoW can not.

horde and alliance were never dismantled in Wc3 or Wc1, wc2 was a different game and things happened different in lore back then, this is not a fair comparison.

As for 'The Alliance doesn't have the power to dismantle the Horde', they've had two complete opportunities to do so.

except they didn't, this another daydreaming assumption from the alliance playerbase.

[Triceron]

what?!?! You said, that writters could do whatever they want by saying they are in control of everything

mind you, this whole discussion started with you saiong how the alliance should either put a puppet leader or genocide the horde, like they could, and blaming the writers because of that not happening.

No, it was meant as an extrapolated comparison to the events in the RTS, such as the full dismantling of the Horde and the internment camps, a 'what if the Alliance could actually win' scenario. It would be the sensible 'Warcraft' outcome based on the precedents set by the RTS, that factions can rise and fall.

My criticism is that the writers can't change the gameplay design of the game and actually remove any of the playable races or factions from power for the sake of a story. They have full control of the narrative and can do anything they want with that narrative, and they CHOSE to tell a story that they know can not have any satisfying outcome for an actual war between two factions. At the end of the day, nothing was really lost. Oh, a bunch of Night Elves died; yet the main NE heroes and all our player characters will never be truly affected, and we can use timeskipping shenanigans to visit the old capital. Nothing is really lost here. The writers could choose ANY story to tell, and they chose one that they knew they could not actually provide a legitimate conclusion to. That's whatvI was talking about, that is the context of what I said earlier.

considerring the limitations of gameplay, lore and how the game functions, they can't write any faction having any subtantial victory/loss scenario

this isn't an singleplayer game, is a MMO with two sides, no one want to be on the loser side, people scream their lungs out and cry for their hearts content when something minor happens, do you think everyone would be fine with their factions suffering a major defeat to a point of being dismantled? again, be real.

Yes, and you can see I agree.

The problem is the writers CHOSE a singleplayer oriented plot point by having a war between the two factions with big stakes on the line. Teldrassil burning, Loedaeron falling; these were meant to be signs of bigger stakes. People expected a full siege of Stormwind and having it fall, or the Horde splintering to third factions, something truly groundbreaking. Instead we just have Garrosh 2.0 even though the Devs said she will not be Garrosh 2.0.

If you agree no ine would be happy with either faction being dismantled, then the whole Fourth War is a pointless and unsatisfying story to tell, especially when we have the precedent for entire factions falling in the RTS games, story with significant payouts and conclusions.

Arthas becoming Lich King didn't just mean the Alliance picked a new leader and carried on as usual. It FELL. Orgrim being defeated didn't just have the Horde carry on with a new leader, it FELL and its pieces were fragmented into multiple smaller groups and clans doing their own thing.

the giant space laser is a shit thing that people in the alliance are acting like this is some sort of nuclear warhead or a world destruction nuke that means autowin

Did you actually played Legion? did you actually saw the power of that giant spaceship? you most used the ship to destroy rocks to get treasures and the big thing it did was to open a little whole in antorus, and thats it, it was never showed to destroy a city it never showed to genocide a nation, never, people assumed that.

The army of the light was fucked, the spaceship had lost almost their resources, they would not be any different from a azerite canon, simple isn't worth.

And again, even if the spaceship was a nuclear nuke, the horde didn't use the goblin cannon either, we are damn even.

You got hangups

Vindicaar is just one of many things the Alliance has that could shift the war. The Horde itself was already in the midst of civil war, and had Anduin been any more opportunistic or zealous, he could have turned them straight on the Horde at their weakest moment and fractured them completely. Hell, it doesn't even have to be through a superweapon. The Vindicaar is just ONE example of what the Alliance has at their disposal that they refuse to use to fight against Sylvanas. Instead the story was written to be about warfronts and azerite control. Azerite was completely pointless to the actual war, and has almost no value after BFA.

As I said, you'd never get a scenario where the Alliance would actually win, because the writers would not allow a complete shift or fragmentation of the factions. And they absolutely could write in an Empire/Rebellion relationship between the two factions (as an example of what they could do) and they have chosen to stick with Red and Blue being equals like chess instead, even if Red incurred a huge loss of leadership and a whole splintering of loyalties. None of it mattered in the end, it all equalled out to Horde losing nothing and the Alliance gaining nothing, because the writers chose this story to tell where nothing in this war ends up mattering

horde and alliance were never dismantled in Wc3 or Wc1, wc2 was a different game and things happened different in lore back then, this is not a fair comparison.

Neither exist any more. The Alliance and Horde of WoW are different from that of WC2, they are only the same in name and spirit, otherwise they are not the same factions we explored in WC2. Horde fell in WC2 and was reordered by Thrall, but was not the only 'Horde' that existed either. The Alliance fell in WC3 with Lordaeron, where the Stormwind kingdom we play in WoW is a completely new faction that started up trying to unite the small towns surrounding Stormwind and had zero connections to the former kingdoms until much much later. It is literally a new Alliance.

[Syegfryed]

No, it was meant as an extrapolated comparison to the events in the RTS, such as the full dismantling of the Horde and the internment camps, a 'what if the Alliance could actually win' scenario. It would be the sensible 'Warcraft' outcome based on the precedents set by the RTS, that factions can rise and fall.

And again, it is not an logical outcome considering the alliance have no power in event thinking about that.

The problem is the writers CHOSE a singleplayer oriented plot point by having a war between the two factions with big stakes on the line. Teldrassil burning, Loedaeron falling; these were meant to be signs of bigger stakes.

there is no singleplayer plot here, two factions lost two big cities, equally, they are outcomes of a war.

People expected a full siege of Stormwind and having it fall, or the Horde splintering to third factions, something truly groundbreaking. Instead we just have Garrosh 2.0 even though the Devs said she will not be Garrosh 2.0.

people were being delusional to think we would have something "fully groundbreaking"

in fact, i never read anything about siege of main cities neither a faction splintering, this is just bananas, no one would actually believe those big things would actually happen in a MMO, like i said, people who play don't want to be losers.

Things going to "garrosh 2.0" is another problem entirelly not tied with factions "falling and rising"

Vindicaar is just one of many things the Alliance has that could shift the war.

it would not, rly, again, this isn't a shifting war device, this is an device tod estroy rocks, maybe by pumping azerite in there it could do something, but simple is nto worth the effort.

The Horde itself was already in the midst of civil war, and had Anduin been any more opportunistic or zealous, he could have turned them straight on the Horde at their weakest moment and fractured them completely.

Did you played the expansion? the alliance was fucked, the rebels are too few, they could not take the horde, thats why Saurfang challenged Sylvanas to a mak'gora

after Sylvanas left horde was literally at their strongest moment compared to the alliance if they wanted they could murder the alliance leaders - who where in their main capital - if they wanted.

The Vindicaar is just ONE example of what the Alliance has at their disposal that they refuse to use to fight against Sylvanas.

tell me more examples of that

and again, you are talking like only the alliance "refuse to use things" but not the horde, completely ignoring this is a double-edge sword, there is many things the horde didn't use, like the goblin cannons, zepelins, goblin tech in general, mana bombs, the sunwell energy, more use of their shamans, so on, hell even the plague was little used compared to what was done in cataclysm

Neither exist any more. The Alliance and Horde of WoW are different from that of WC2,

it is stated many times the alliance still is the same organization, like Metzen pointed out, it only shifted power center, from lordaeron to stormwind

again, not the same thing, and they will not make the same thing in wow, pure logical, this isn't a rts where they can make a game and wait years for a sequel.

[Triceron]

And again, it is not an logical outcome considering the alliance have no power in event thinking about that.

What does this even mean?

The Alliance has as much power as the writers are willing to give them. The fact is, the writers are choosing not to tip the favour into either side, while trying to tell stories that shift that balance and failing to have it actually matter conclusively.

there is no singleplayer plot here, two factions lost two big cities, equally, they are outcomes of a war.

They are the outcomes of the writers planning on both sides losing equally. Again, exactly as I pointed out. It's not a realistic war at all, it's an overdramatization of pointlessness. The stakes were high, and they were brought down to 'nothing really lost' in the end. At the end of the day, no major shifts in the balance has actually happened. Both gained and lost equally.

people were being delusional to think we would have something "fully groundbreaking"

in fact, i never read anything about siege of main cities neither a faction splintering, this is just bananas, no one would actually believe those big things would actually happen in a MMO, like i said, people who play don't want to be losers.

Things going to "garrosh 2.0" is another problem entirelly not tied with factions "falling and rising"

But that's my point. That you personally are jaded does not mean the writers weren't writing a story that set up big stakes that had people expecting more out of the story. And my criticism is it's the wrong story to tell if they can't satisfy an outcome that is realistic to an actual conclusion of a war, where major cities were lost.

The Alliance literally does nothing at the end of BFA and allows the Horde to continue doing what they want, no repercussions for the loss of the Teldrassil. Think about that. Is this the story that you are defending as good writing, that the writers were in the right to tell this type of story knowing that they can't actually satisfy any ending to a war between the Alliance and Horde? You actually think it was a good thing for them to write a bigass war between them where things were lost, but at the end of the day nothing changes?

it would not, rly, again, this isn't a shifting war device, this is an device tod estroy rocks, maybe by pumping azerite in there it could do something, but simple is nto worth the effort.

So it could be anything else. Jaina had a fucking battleship in the same siege. Tyrande had Night Warrior powers, and practically did not show or use any of it till the very end when she showed she could FLY IN THE SKY to chase down Sylvanas. So much was underutilized in the entire 'war'. The Alliance has as much capability as the writers allowed them, and the truth is the writers didn't do a good job at all in realistically portraying this war or satisfying its outcome.

Did you played the expansion? the alliance was fucked, the rebels are too few, they could not take the horde, thats why Saurfang challenged Sylvanas to a mak'gora

Which is more writer shenanigans, and it shows that you bought it hook line and sinker, and are DEFENDING bad writing for the sake of it.

Jeez, I could make that excuse too. Alliance can't take out Horde because every time they fight a battle they don't bring enough troops, because they're dumb. Look how awesome my creative writing is!

The writers set up the Alliance to fail, which is all meant to satisfy one point - the cinematic duel between Sylvanas and Saurfang, with his eventual death and her eventual betrayal that sets up everything moving forward to the Shadowlands expansion. The Alliance was set up to fail. Period. They have the full might of an entire unified faction behind them to fight against Sylvanas, and what we got was 'Alliance got fucked and there weren't enough rebels'. Sure, and there was also a floating space cannon that was never used, and Jaina had a floating battleship which she never really cared to use ever again even though we had a cinematic dedicated to her raising it and only ever using once.

Again, Alliance was set up to fail. The writers willed this to happen. Are you seriously going to ignore that this was all planned and written by people?

Look at these voicelines from Night Elves after the Battle at the Gates

Night Elf Sentinel (1) says: My brothers and sisters still seek vengeance for Teldrassil. But I... I am so tired of war.
Night Elf Sentinel (2) says: To be honest, so am I. Rage still burns within my heart, but I long to live my life without it.

Like seriously? You're telling me that the writers had no other choice than to write a War story that concludes with the race that trained 10,000 years to defend against invaders and had lost the most from this war suddenly are tired of war? Give me a break, dude. The writers don't respect the lore or the factions at all.

Are you seriously implying that BFA's story was not a fucking mess and that it was a good thing that the writers chose to give us a Faction war with absolutely no sensible outcome?

it is stated many times the alliance still is the same organization, like Metzen pointed out, it only shifted power center, from lordaeron to stormwind

again, not the same thing, and they will not make the same thing in wow, pure logical, this isn't a rts where they can make a game and wait years for a sequel.

Straight from WoWpedia:

The Alliance is an evolution of the original Alliance of Lordaeron,[7] and the memories of the allegiances and idealism of the Alliance of Lordaeron―centered in the homonymous continent―served as the ultimate inspiration for the new Alliance of the present day.

For its predecessor, see Alliance of Lordaeron.

And within the Alliance of Lordaeron section, it clearly states

Grand Marshal Garithos was killed in the following civil war of the Plaguelands, and the Alliance resistance fell apart soon after his death.
Memories of past allegiances and idealism ultimately inspired the new Alliance of the present day[22] led by the Wrynn dynasty.


So no, they are not the same. This is a *new* Alliance that was inspired by the ideals and allegiances of the old.


If you want to provide me a quote of Metzen saying the Alliance is the same, feel free to. But the information we have right now, I can tell you, is from a later source than since he made those statements, and are the current standing canon of the Alliance as it is. If the canon was one and the same, then WoWpedia would not have two separate sections covering the different 'Alliances'.

[Syegfryed]

The Alliance has as much power as the writers are willing to give them.

and this is come to "writers can do what they want"

the alliance has much power as logically they have atm.

They are the outcomes of the writers planning on both sides losing equally. Again, exactly as I pointed out.

im sorry but the alliance putting a puppet leader, dismantling or genocide the horde does not sound like "both sides losing equally" m8

The Alliance literally does nothing at the end of BFA and allows the Horde to continue doing what they want, no repercussions for the loss of the Teldrassil.

thats because they can't do shit about

they literally said the alliance and the rebels can't deal with the horde, they together at the gates of orgimmar was the last attempt, do you think the alliance could demand shit for the horde + the rebels? like i said be real

Think about that. Is this the story that you are defending as good writing,

never onced i defended this as good writing

stating that the alliance can't do what you said they can't is by no means defending the writters

So it could be anything else. Jaina had a fucking battleship in the same siege.

ah yes, like no one else had a fucking flying battleship, remember MOP where both factions battle with airships? even in wtlk we used that, jaina using that was clearly for fan service, you can't believe she using her arcane power to float that thing to be rly more useful, let alone how they can simple shot that shit down with the azerite cannos.

The Alliance has as much capability as the writers allowed them, and the truth is the writers didn't do a good job at all in realistically portraying this war or satisfying its outcome.

just like the horde, again,y oua re complaining like it only happened to one side

Which is more writer shenanigans, and it shows that you bought it hook line and sinker, and are DEFENDING bad writing for the sake of it.

im not defending it, im stating what is the cannon

the alliance being in a worst position than the horde in this war is the logical outcome of things, taking account you have a 18 years old boy leading the faction with limited resources coming out of Legion and a clash between leaders.

how they got that is indeed bad, but that is another subject an not rly the main point here.

The writers set up the Alliance to fail, which is all meant to satisfy one point

If you think only one faction is set up to fail that is entirelly a bias problem.

Like seriously? You're telling me that the writers had no other choice than to write a War story that concludes with the race that trained 10,000 years to defend against invaders and had lost the most from this war suddenly are tired of war? Give me a break, dude. The writers don't respect the lore or the factions at all.

Night elves were trained against uncivilized races, they can't deal with actual war, it was always like that since warcraft 3, i don't know what game you have being playing

both factions where fucked, but since the alliance was in a worst position a cease fire is just the logical outcome, no matter how night elves want vengeance, they.simple.can't.get.it

If you want to provide me a quote of Metzen saying the Alliance is the same, feel free to. But the information we have right now, I can tell you, is from a later source than since he made those statements, and are the current standing canon of the Alliance as it is. If the canon was one and the same, then WoWpedia would not have two separate sections covering the different 'Alliances'.

It's the same Alliance according to the WoW manual:
The noble humans of Stormwind are a proud, tenacious race. They bravely fought the orcish Horde for generations as the patrons of the Grand Alliance.
[...]
Nearly four years later, the defenders of Stormwind stand vigilant against any who would threaten the sanctity of their lands. Situated in the foothills of Elwynn Forest, Stormwind City is one of the last bastions of human power in the world. The child-king Anduin Wrynn rules the people of Stormwind, who remain steadfast in their commitment to the Grand Alliance. Backed by their stalwart allies, the armies of Stormwind have been called away to once again fight the savage Horde on distant battlefields. With the armies gone, the defense of Stormwind now falls to its proud citizens.
--World of Warcraft Manual, p. 168

Even so, when the orcs invaded Azeroth and set out to conquer the human, elven, and dwarven lands, the dwarves offered to join the Grand Alliance.
[...]
An integral part of the Grand Alliance, the rugged dwarven armies have been called away to battle the merciless Horde in faraway lands. In these perilous times, the defense of the mountain kingdom falls to brave dwarves like you. The spirits of the dwarven kings watch over you, and the very mountains are your strength. The future of your people is in your hands.
--World of Warcraft Manual, p. 170

It's the same Alliance according to Genn, Tyrande, and Varian.
“It’s about the summit, Archdruid.”
“Of course. Gilneas is one of the most prominent reasons I sought to bring it to fruition. Your people’s admission to the Alliance is—”
“Re-admission, you mean,” the king growled with much bitterness.
--Wolfheart, p. 140

Tyrande, touching her husband’s hand, took command of events again. “You have witnessed the might of Gilneas and heard its request to enter back into the Alliance!”
--Wolfheart, p.332

Varian says: “As I’ve already said to many, I find nothing worthy, nothing honorable, in this pack of hounds . . . and so I will never vote aye to their admission back into the fold!”
--Wolfheart, p. 337

It's the same Alliance according to Metzen himself:
Originally Posted by Chris Metzen
The various cultures of Azeroth, who were never fast friends. There was no love lost between them. They had no common heritage. They had no common history. They really didn't like each other down the stretch of years. But in the face of this onslaught—in response to these badass orc leaders—they came together. And they founded a union based on honor and righteousness. And a deep seeded drive to dispense indiscriminate justice upon those who threatened their homelands. This Alliance saved the world. Alliance, do you remember who you are!? YOU ARE THE ALLIANCE OF LORDAERON! Champions of justice and I love you for it

its the same darn thing, the only difference is how stormwind heads instead of lordaeron, and some races left, others came back.

[Triceron]

im sorry but the alliance putting a puppet leader, dismantling or genocide the horde does not sound like "both sides losing equally" m8

Well yeah, because my statement was about what the Writers would never do. You're turning it around and assuming that I said that with regards to both sides being equal, when I was making a point that the Alliance could absolutely be written to dominate a side, while the Horde becomes an underdog that fights a rebellion. It's an Empire/Rebellion dynamic like we see in Star Wars, where both sides are not equal at all even if it's played out as equal in whatever medium be it novel or videogame. The story is one dominant force, one challenging force. WoW does not have that dynamic in its story, because the writers chose intentionally to keep both sides balanced.

That is a case of the writers doing what they want with the lore, and fucking it up because it ends up diluting the meaning of the Horde.

thats because they can't do shit about

they literally said the alliance and the rebels can't deal with the horde, they together at the gates of orgimmar was the last attempt, do you think the alliance could demand shit for the horde + the rebels? like i said be real

You're telling me that the writers were forced to have the Alliance have nothing left by the end even though they have plenty at their disposal that has not even been utilized? Right after the Battle at the Gates, they fucking fought N'ZOTH, and you're telling me the Alliance had no power whatsoever.

Give me a break dude. Seriously.

Night elves were trained against uncivilized races, they can't deal with actual war, it was always like that since warcraft 3, i don't know what game you have being playing

Sounds like copium. You're headcanoning the shit out of the Night Elves. Who said they are trained against uncivilized races? This is nothing but made up bullshit, and you know it. It's sad, really, how far you're willing to make shit up.

I'm not surprised since you seem to think that the writers have no choice but to write a war story where nothing actually happens at the end. Those poor writers!

If you think only one faction is set up to fail that is entirelly a bias problem.

Says the Horde fanboy? Please.

[Feanoro]

@Triceron Congrats, he always screeches "bias" when he has no arguments. Further, anyone can see you're talking Doylist POV while he refuses to leave Watsonian. Horde players suffered the most because Alliance still exists, don't you know.

BfA was a colossal failure on every possible front, and irreparably damaged any and all stories to setup Sylvie's Merry Adventures in Hades. It was billed as the faction pride expansion and made players on both sides quit in disgust at their faction.

[Darth-Piekus]

Triceron is one of the few who gets it.In any logical scenario both Garrosh and Sylvannas and their Horde under their command would not be able to do what they did as they wouldn't have the resources or manpower behind it, the Alliance would not be that stupid not to use whatever means nessesary at their disposal to win and the neutral factions that their interests clashed with the Horde would not have been incredibly neutral stupid. Blizzard has written every asset out of the picture in order as Feanoro said above a story of Garrosh and his Merry Daddy Issues Fanboy Band and Sylvannas and his Death Cult Fanboy Cult. Even then we were denied killing any of them.

In the end all they did was to make people hate the game and many abandoned it. I was one of them.