This game can probably use a purely tank class;

[Triceron]

And that was purely based on desire on Blizzard’s part, not some fundamental problem with its concept.

It was never a problem of the fundamental concept because the fundamental concept was never applied to Raiding, ever.

It exists as Druids are able to use their weapons in combat outside of animal forms. It doesn't mean that's how the class was meant to be played. The exception would be any particular mechanic or encounter that is specifically designed with that in mind, and that's not what we're talking about here.

See above.

I did, and nothing substantial was said.

I said that players want a new ranged class. My point is that if Blizzard creates a ranged tank, players will be excited for it.

Sure, you can say it all you want but it doesn't mean anything substantial. Blizzard could remove Gnomes from the game and players will be excited for it too. Does this mean they should go ahead and do it? Does it mean it's viable? Cuz it sure is possible through coding. Delete a few lines of code, done!

[Teriz]

It was never a problem of the fundamental concept because the fundamental concept was never applied to Raiding, ever.

The only thing stopping Warlocks from becoming viable tanks in MoP was a single stat. Blizzard never gave them that star because they said that they didn’t want a tanking spec to come from a single glyph. That’s all they said. They never said that ranged tanking isn’t viable, breaks game balance, or whatever silly argument you’ve been coming up with in this discussion.

It exists as Druids are able to melee attack outside of animal forms. It doesn't mean that's how the class was meant to be played.

Yet Druids can tank in humanoid form.

Sure, you can say it all you want but it doesn't mean anything substantial. Blizzard could remove Gnomes from the game and players will be excited for it too. Does this mean they should go ahead and do it? Does it mean it's viable? Cuz it sure is possible through coding. Delete a few lines of code, done!

Again, this is a ridiculous and nonsensical comparison that does nothing to further this conversation. You’re comparing adding a new way to tank to Blizzard deleting the characters of paying subscribers. Such a comparison is dumb on multiple levels.

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Honestly...no blizzard rarely knows how classes work much less more then players... for a whole year ww monks where killing people with the bone dust bug that blizzard couldn't figure out till a theory crafter told them... never mind shard of woe with arcane mages and dozens of other examples.

We’re not talking about the same thing. I’m talking about Blizzard designing a spec and a class. You’re talking about players play testing that designed class and giving Blizzard feedback after finding bugs and exploits.

Not the same thing.

[Triceron]

Yet Druids can tank in humanoid form.

Yes, and it's possible. You can be a max level Druid that tanks low level dungeons where mobs don't hurt you at all, that's all possible. it's not viable at all in humanoid form for any other content, really

Again, this is a ridiculous and nonsensical comparison that does nothing to further this conversation. You’re comparing adding a new way to tank to Blizzard deleting the characters of paying subscribers. Such a comparison is dumb on multiple levels.

Yes, absolutely true.

It became nonsensical as soon as you said this:

"So is your argument that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Blizzard to overcome those obstacles via programming and development and create a ranged tank? remove Gnomes from the game"

That's basically how to frame the nonsense. In your own words. That you're calling it nonsense is literally you arguing with yourself here. If the proposition is that a bad idea should exist because arguments against it being impossible are untrue, then we can follow up by simply saying that's a nonsensical argument to make. The idea itself is dumb on multiple levels, which no one has actually agreed that it has plausible viability whatsoever. Therefore it doesn't actually further conversation at all, we're just talking about how nonsensical Ranged tanking is overall.

It's not viable. "But Blizzard can do it!" Nonsense, since they have no reason to. "But people would be excited if they did it!" Nonsense, since people would get excited over practically anything, including removing Gnomes from the game. It's all nonsense, you see?

[Postmasters]

The only thing stopping Warlocks from becoming viable tanks in MoP was a single stat. Blizzard never gave them that star because they said that they didn’t want a tanking spec to come from a single glyph. That’s all they said. They never said that ranged tanking isn’t viable, breaks game balance, or whatever silly argument you’ve been coming up with in this discussion.



Yet Druids can tank in humanoid form.




Again, this is a ridiculous and nonsensical comparison that does nothing to further this conversation. You’re comparing adding a new way to tank to Blizzard deleting the characters of paying subscribers. Such a comparison is dumb on multiple levels.

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We’re not talking about the same thing. I’m talking about Blizzard designing a spec and a class. You’re talking about players play testing that designed class and giving Blizzard feedback after finding bugs and exploits.

Not the same thing.

Right and I'm telling you your idea CAN'T be designed to work.

[Triceron]

Right and I'm telling you your idea CAN'T be designed to work.

I would even add to that and say he's not talking about Blizzard adding a class and spec at all. He's just talking about a nonsensical idea that Blizzard has no sensible reason to design as a class and spec.

[Kumorii]

Ranged Tanking would never work because of PVP

Would never work because of pve either.

[Teriz]

Yes, and it's possible. You can be a max level Druid that tanks low level dungeons where mobs don't hurt you at all, that's all possible. it's not viable at all in humanoid form for any other content, really

Uh, again, you can be a werebear. That is a humanoid form, and you can tank any content in that form just fine.

Yes, absolutely true.

It became nonsensical as soon as you said this:

"So is your argument that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for Blizzard to overcome those obstacles via programming and development and create a ranged tank? remove Gnomes from the game"

That's basically how to frame the nonsense. In your own words. That you're calling it nonsense is literally you arguing with yourself here. If the proposition is that a bad idea should exist because arguments against it being impossible are untrue, then we can follow up by simply saying that's a nonsensical argument to make. The idea itself is dumb on multiple levels, which no one has actually agreed that it has plausible viability whatsoever. Therefore it doesn't actually further conversation at all, we're just talking about how nonsensical Ranged tanking is overall.

No, it’s nonsense because you’re comparing an action that would have an overwhelming negative effect (the removal of paying customer characters) versus adding a new playstyle to a player role. Yeah, a minority of cynical players would celebrate the removal of gnomes from WoW. However, a lot more would be angry because their characters are removed, and other players would be concerned that player characters are getting erased for no good reason.

Please explain the negative effects of a Ranged Tank since you admit that Blizzard can make it work.

It's not viable. "But Blizzard can do it!" Nonsense, since they have no reason to. "But people would be excited if they did it!" Nonsense, since people would get excited over practically anything, including removing Gnomes from the game. It's all nonsense, you see?

Their reasons to do it are simple; It’s a new way to tank that would draw in new players. And yeah, people would get excited about anything, but far more people would be angry and concerned about what you’re talking about than a ranged tank.

Who would be angry about a ranged tank being introduced into WoW?

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Right and I'm telling you your idea CAN'T be designed to work.

So again you’re saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Blizzard to create a workable ranged tank in WoW?

Like, creating a ranged tank in a video game is more difficult than terraforming Mars? Terraforming Mars isn’t IMPOSSIBLE, but in your mind, creating a tank that fights from ranged is.

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I would even add to that and say he's not talking about Blizzard adding a class and spec at all. He's just talking about a nonsensical idea that Blizzard has no sensible reason to design as a class and spec.

In the case of the new class; Bringing in new players to the game. In the case of a ranged tank; same deal, including bringing new players to the role.

[datguy81]

Uh, again, you can be a werebear. That is a humanoid form, and you can tank any content in that form just fine.





No, it’s nonsense because you’re comparing an action that would have an overwhelming negative effect (the removal of paying customer characters) versus adding a new playstyle to a player role. Yeah, a minority of cynical players would celebrate the removal of gnomes from WoW. However, a lot more would be angry because their characters are removed, and other players would be concerned that player characters are getting erased for no good reason.

Please explain the negative effects of a Ranged Tank since you admit that Blizzard can make it work.



Their reasons to do it are simple; It’s a new way to tank that would draw in new players. And yeah, people would get excited about anything, but far more people would be angry and concerned about what you’re talking about than a ranged tank.

Who would be angry about a ranged tank being introduced into WoW?

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So again you’re saying that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Blizzard to create a workable ranged tank in WoW?

Like, creating a ranged tank in a video game is more difficult than terraforming Mars? Terraforming Mars isn’t IMPOSSIBLE, but in your mind, creating a tank that fights from ranged is.

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In the case of the new class; Bringing in new players to the game. In the case of a ranged tank; same deal, including bringing new players to the role.

They would have to redesign so many boss fights that are already in the game. There is no way that they are going to make a range tank

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Not to mention the fact it will be utterly broken in PVP & Pve

[bloodmoth13]

This just seems silly.

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You could do a physical caster easily, conjuring all sorts of blades, dealing damage or applying bleeds, and other debuffs.

Wildstar "Esper" Class was something of the sort, with most of the kit being about conjuring knives or blades. It had some other stuff, but that was the jist of it.

Well earth magic could easily be physical i guess but i was thinking less of the 'type' of damage and more of 'how' the damage was done (through only physical means)

[Triceron]

Who would be angry about a ranged tank being introduced into WoW?

You've been here for over 10 years and you honestly don't think Blizzard changing core systems will anger anyone?

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In the case of the new class; Bringing in new players to the game. In the case of a ranged tank; same deal, including bringing new players to the role.

Or they could just, you know, make a new class.

Tanking is fine as it is, it doesn't need more players brought into the role if they aren't already interested. Gimmicks aren't a good reason to pick up tanking if you don't already play one. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Ielenia]

We're missing a petless physical ranged class. A technology class fills that void rather nicely.

Marksmanship hunters exist.

I would even argue that we should create a physical ranged tanking spec to go along with it.

Such a thing does not and cannot exist. It's a mechanical impossibility.

[Alkizon]

Triceron
They tried very hard to double down on Class Fantasy in Legion, and I give em props for what they attempted and executed. However it doesn't have strong lasting value since most of that fantasy came with Artifacts, and they completely removed them from the equation afterwards

To be honest, I was already pretty tired of repeating the same simple fact. Legion hasn't done ounce of usefulness for class fantasy. Legion proclaimed anti-class fantasy... and your continuation even contains hint of why:

Triceron
leaving Specs feeling very incomplete, in both fantasy and gameplay mechanics.

Legion destroyed basic structure and subjected to total isolation pieces of class in gameplay and story, and hence integrity of its base fantasy (in essence, they take away initiative behind fantasy of particular character from player, impose/dictate as much as possible by excessive "specialization" both mechanically and visually). After all, it's still very simple and lies on surface, why I constantly see this phrase, when it comes with mentioning Legion?..

The most offensive thing is that consequences of such an ungrateful approach began to be felt even in new character creation interface

ps. Just a remark, not for desire to dispute something that has been said in message in general.

[Lolites]

It was cool for deathknights because they had 3 tank specs and 3 dps specs. they werent pure tank, they had a lot of flexibility, or you could just double down on a single spec and be either dps or tank as say frost or blood or unholy.

as someone whos main is DK since wrath i can tell you i (and many others, thats why they changed it i assume) werent thrilled, as every spec was kinda good for tanking different things and useless for other, only thing i miss about "original" wrath dk specialisations is blood dps, that was a lot of fun

[LanToaster]

Who would be angry about a ranged tank being introduced into WoW?

Seriously, I´ve heard this "Ranged Tank" alot of times. A Ranged Tank would play no differently than any other tank aswell.
Because:
1. Enemies still run to you to Hit you.
2. Enemies that dont run to you to Hit you, either do a Very strong Attack unless you are in Melee Range, or do random casts/shots on the Group.

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Such a thing does not and cannot exist. It's a mechanical impossibility.

I´d argue its entirely Possible to make a Tank thats supposed to be played at Range. It would just be very very Stupid, break certain encounters/mobs, and be so damn annoying for Melee DPS. And a real Nightmare in tight spaces.

[Teriz]

They would have to redesign so many boss fights that are already in the game. There is no way that they are going to make a range tank

You wouldn’t need to redesign any raid mechanics if you properly design the tank, which I have little doubt that Blizzard can do.

Not to mention the fact it will be utterly broken in PVP & Pve

This is purely your assumption.

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You've been here for over 10 years and you honestly don't think Blizzard changing core systems will anger anyone?

Why would you need to change core systems? All you need to do is build the mechanics within the new tanking spec to follow “the rules” of your other tanks.

Or they could just, you know, make a new class.

Tanking is fine as it is, it doesn't need more players brought into the role if they aren't already interested. Gimmicks aren't a good reason to pick up tanking if you don't already play one. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Except if Blizzard implements such a tank, it wouldn’t be a gimmick, and it wouldn’t break anything. It would be a new way to tank in WoW, and that would be an overwhelming positive.

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Seriously, I´ve heard this "Ranged Tank" alot of times. A Ranged Tank would play no differently than any other tank aswell.
Because:
1. Enemies still run to you to Hit you.
2. Enemies that dont run to you to Hit you, either do a Very strong Attack unless you are in Melee Range, or do random casts/shots on the Group.

1. Develop abilities that keep enemies at bay, and such abilities already exist in the class lineup. Hunters and Warlocks do this via pets. Hunters have Traps. Druids have Ursoc’s Vortex and Typhoon. Shaman and Monks have summons that purposely taunt enemies away from them.

Beyond that, Hunters and Casters have enemies run up on them all the time. They’re still considered ranged.

2. Those are merely numbers that can be adjusted.

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Marksmanship hunters exist.

MM Hunters can and do summon pets. Also MM is a spec, not a class.

Such a thing does not and cannot exist. It's a mechanical impossibility.

When you control every aspect of mechanical design in a video game, nothing is a mechanical impossibility.

[Lolites]

The idea has no substantial reason to exist. "beKuZ PEEPO wanz iT" is not a substantial reason.

i mean, you are talking to someone whose whole existence on this forum seems to revolve around idea "tinker is the best fit, should be and will be next class, bcs I SAID SO", so his "arguments" are hardly surprising to be empty...

[Teriz]

i mean, you are talking to someone whose whole existence on this forum seems to revolve around idea "tinker is the best fit, should be and will be next class, bcs I SAID SO"...

That’s a completely false statement on pretty much every level.

[Scarnage86]

No, as main Monk tank i don't want more tank spec, but i will GREATLY WANT:
1) talent that really can change my gameplay, like 1st row talent make me swap stagger for other mechanics, like a choice between Mitigation-Selfhealing-Postmitigation(stagger), So same class, spec, role, different gameplay without reroll
2) a reverse "gladiator stance", where i can stay as BRM monk but all my defensive and mitigation tool became offensive, so no need to learn different rotation/talent, just push a button and Puff, i'm dps now. Same can be for healing specc, push a button and puff all healing spell do dmg to enemy... no need to swap specc

[Aucald]

This is not a Tinker-centric thread, and the argument around Tinkers is sucking all the air out of the proverbial room. Let's drop the Tinker-related back and forth and talk about other potential purely tank classes that could be developed or created.

[Teriz]

This is not a Tinker-centric thread, and the argument around Tinkers is sucking all the air out of the proverbial room. Let's drop the Tinker-related back and forth and talk about other potential purely tank classes that could be developed or created.

Are we permitted to discuss the potential/possibilities of a ranged tank in WoW? A pure tank class would likely have a ranged spec in order to differentiate playstyle.