Dragonflight Alpha/Beta General Discussion

[Azxza]

You're being willfully ignorant: Separate from the boost: You're forced to do the entire storyline if you level up through any other method. In WoW you can skip all of it.

Cause WoW's story is throwaway trash. FFXIV has an actual story with great writing, direction and production values. If you just want to skip to the end so you can hop on the hamster wheel, FFXIV is the wrong game for that.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

And how do you know that the story is main incentive?

Having done it, having two friend circles that have done it, hearing it from the mouth of former WoW players that have jumped ship to 14 in the last year...

[Makabreska]

Having done it, having two friend circles that have done it, hearing it from the mouth of former WoW players that have jumped ship to 14 in the last year...

Ye ok, so it's all fellycraft if you think you can base it on those few people.

[Ersula]

And you know what, that story is why most people play the game. Which you definitely can't say about WoW.

I guess that's true: I did say it was a game for weebs. I couldn't stand the FFXIV storyline because it's just a bunch of identical white-haired catboy twinks mincing about vague anime concepts. No thank you.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I guess that's true: I did say it was a game for weebs. I couldn't stand the FFXIV storyline because it's just a bunch of identical white-haired catboy twinks mincing about vague anime concepts. No thank you.

Yeah I will give it that. If you're not into the JRPG scene it's probably going to be like a dense block of concrete to get into. Especially in the early goings before it really finds its footing.

[Ersula]

And it was great

It really was. Just don't consider 6.1 & 7.1 as the second raid tiers of their expansion: they were still the first. We're currently at the Tomb of Sargeras point in Shadowlands, not Nighthold.

[Azxza]

Ye ok, so it's all fellycraft if you think you can base it on those few people.

You clearly haven't spent more than 5 seconds in FFXIV community spaces if you need proof that the story is one of the main draws of the game. So why open your figurative mouth to speak on something you know nothing of?

[Makabreska]

You clearly haven't spent more than 5 seconds in FFXIV community spaces if you need proof that the story is one of the main draws of the game. So why open your figurative mouth to speak on something you know nothing of?

Because it's an open forum here and you can't stop me.

Also for the way how I quickly and unintentionally triggered you, it's just cute.

[Tyris Flare]

I guess that's true: I did say it was a game for weebs. I couldn't stand the FFXIV storyline because it's just a bunch of identical white-haired catboy twinks mincing about vague anime concepts. No thank you.

I tried to watch some videos to understand the hype and this was also my thought lol.

I mean wows story absolutely is trash but I've personally never cared about it. I can't imagine that more than a pittance of players have ever actually read quests. I think interesting concepts are more important in an MMO compared to some kind of compelling storyline. E.g the shadowlands concept is stupid, but the legion one was cool.

Swtor is the only MMO that had good cutscenes with immersive stories, and even they haven't been able to sustain it.

[Azxza]

Because it's an open forum here and you can't stop me.

Also for the way how I quickly and unintentionally triggered you, it's just cute.

So it goes. Carry on.

[Osmeric]

Please stop the FFXIV talk. This is not the thread for it.

[draugril]

*Looks at the support oriented Night Fae Paladin, who through Shadowlands development went from most popular spec combo to least popular in the entire game*

Yeah, like when FF14 turned the Bard class into a more WoW-like straightforward dps. And I think that was a mistake.

You don't need to change the holy trinity to make a support class: Just make a healer or DPS spec that is valuable to a party even if they don't top the meters. We some anti-parse specs to combat the current WoW mindset: Ascension does this. Ability Enchantments are just like conduits except better because they let you build new playstyles: Like a offhand healer with powerful short-term buffs.

Let's just watch how Enhancement turns out. Right now, they're trash tier, but Windfury totem redeems them a little. They can go one of two ways:

a) Buff Shaman personal DPS, keeping or nerfing WF totem functionality, or;
b) Lean into the support theme, buff WF totem, add more support functions.

My guess is that they go with A. Or neither and just let it continue to be trash, blaming the state of the class on its support functionality.

This seems more to do with FFXIV having went for a divergent path to what WoW did in WotLK.
From what I have seen it seems to me that raids (or whatever they are called) in FFXIV are more the spice on top of the real meat of the game, which in that case is the questlines. The real strength of that game is that its writing is more in-depth, and from what I have seen at least it seems that the developers treat raids more like how the WoW developers used to treat raids back in Vanilla, as the finale of a storyline.

Ever since WotLK WoW went for the path where raids were the preeminent endgame activity. Dungeons were a stepping stone ot gear up for raids, storylines were more to inform raids, and patches were all centered around a raid and the internal gearing path it gives.
What this means however is that it is very difficult to make things like professions meaningful, specifically with things like being alternative gearing paths. If you can get BiS gear from professions, then why do raids? Same with World Quests or anything really.
On the other end it has also been in part been shaped by, and in another helped shape the WoW playerbase of today, where systems need to give a tangible benefit to endgame activities, which means raids, otherwise it's moot, and a waste of time for at least a large chunk of the playerbase.

WoW could have stuff like what FFXIV has, but it would require a drastic rethink of WoW as a whole, not simply deciding that it does things "better".

FFXIV trusts players to do the content that they find personally enjoyable. If you want endgame viable gear, you have options. You can craft it. Raid for it. Grind currency (that comes from many sources). Do a long questline. Whatever you like. And yes, there is going to be a quickest path. A more efficient path. But most people just do what they enjoy. Often, that means doing a mix of everything - not because you are required to mechanically. It is that trust - that lack of an omnipresent pressure to do this or that - to which FFXIV owes much of its appeal when it comes to WoW players.

And honestly? I don't think it would require a drastic rethink of WoW as a whole. They simply need to learn to trust their players again, and themselves. Stop the timegating. Stop the unreasonably grindy requirements. Stop treating all content as a funnel into Mythic+ and raids rather than content unto itself. WoW has so much untapped potential, even twenty years in. They just fail to realize it.

I'm just waiting to see how formulaic 10.0 is. If they fail to trust and fail to innovate again... I might just check out. About a decade later than most of my friends... I was the last hanger-on.

[Ersula]

FFXIV trusts players to do the content that they find personally enjoyable. If you want endgame viable gear, you have options. You can craft it. Raid for it. Grind currency (that comes from many sources). Do a long questline. Whatever you like. And yes, there is going to be a quickest path. A more efficient path. But most people just do what they enjoy. Often, that means doing a mix of everything - not because you are required to mechanically. It is that trust - that lack of an omnipresent pressure to do this or that - to which FFXIV owes much of its appeal when it comes to WoW players.

And honestly? I don't think it would require a drastic rethink of WoW as a whole. They simply need to learn to trust their players again, and themselves. Stop the timegating. Stop the unreasonably grindy requirements. Stop treating all content as a funnel into Mythic+ and raids rather than content unto itself. WoW has so much untapped potential, even twenty years in. They just fail to realize it.

I'm just waiting to see how formulaic 10.0 is. If they fail to trust and fail to innovate again... I might just check out. About a decade later than most of my friends... I was the last hanger-on.

This video covered that idea: Why classic is more popular than retail now

Basically, Many activities leading to the same goal is preferable to current retail, where specific activities lead to specific goals. Is the point that people love getting two hot dogs when they only earned one?

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Please stop the FFXIV talk. This is not the thread for it.

We're talking about why so many WoW streamers left for FF14. It's relevant.

[draugril]

I tried to watch some videos to understand the hype and this was also my thought lol.

I mean wows story absolutely is trash but I've personally never cared about it. I can't imagine that more than a pittance of players have ever actually read quests. I think interesting concepts are more important in an MMO compared to some kind of compelling storyline. E.g the shadowlands concept is stupid, but the legion one was cool.

Swtor is the only MMO that had good cutscenes with immersive stories, and even they haven't been able to sustain it.

When I started FFXIV:ARR, there was a particular character that I absolutely hated. He was the personification of everything that I hate about JRPGs. That young, arrogant, effeminate wunderkind. I've stopped playing JRPGs entirely just because they introduced character as half as annoying as that kid. But eventually... I pushed through. I saw that character develop - I even came to like him. That's unprecedented. And a testament to the quality of storytelling in FFXIV. Yes, the initial game is frontloaded with worldbuilding and introducing a myriad of characters (much like every WoW expansion), but the subsequent expansions take that setup and just keep paying it off. It helps when they actually write more than a patch ahead of themselves.

And yeah, SW:TOR's initial launch remains the best narrative-driven MMO gameplay. But as you state, it tapered off. FFXIV did the opposite - it starts as a typical JRPG slog, which is going to turn a lot of people off, but eventually becomes the best narrative to grace the genre.

That being said, FFXIV is "concluding" its narrative with its next expansion. I'll be very interested to see what they do for their next story, especially if new players can skip the previous story somehow. It needs a new entry point. It's a huge investment to ask people to chain 5 console RPG-length stories in a row to "catch up" with FFXIV. If they want to compete with WoW's 10.0, they need a way to bring in new players.

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Basically, Many activities leading to the same goal is preferable to current retail, where specific activities lead to specific goals.

I would argue that modern WoW has a breadth of activities all leading to one (or two?) specific goal. Everything receiving developer attention, with the exception of pet battles and PvP, leads into Keystone dungeons and Mythic raids. World quests exists to get you that first step. Normal and Heroic dungeons and raids only exist to propel you into Mythic content. Torghast only exists to get you the items you need to progress elsewhere. None of these systems stand on their own two legs.

[draugril]

ignoring the selling point of that being the coherent story: I dont know if you actually paying attention to your playtime or anything but you have way more maintence systems that take the average players time in wow then going through that story once.

Read the whole post. I'm not ignoring that selling point at all. But I can admit that those potential hundreds of hours are a huge ask from any potential new players, especially when they come from a game like WoW and view the MMO genre through a very particular lens that doesn't see the value in any story at all. Again, I'm very interested in their post-launch plans this expansion when it comes to easing new players into the world. Even if the slog is ultimately "worth it," a lot of players aren't going to risk their time. This is the perfect opportunity to get people to buy in at what is essentially a second ground zero.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

This video covered that idea: Why classic is more popular than retail now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RxQRswLAmI[/video]
Basically, Many activities leading to the same goal is preferable to current retail, where specific activities lead to specific goals. Is the point that people love getting two hot dogs when they only earned one?

"Many activities leading to the same goal." And that brings us back to the same question that has haunted WoW for a decade.

Are the majority of WoW players no life progressionists, or casuals that will just do what they find fun?

Blizz has long skewed to the former in their designs, assuming that players if given 5 ways to reach 1 goal will choose to stack all 5 daily for maximum efficiency and thus "break the intended progression." So we get systems that are designed to be entirely self-contained. You run Torghast to get Legendaries, you run World Quests to get Anima, you run Raids to get Gear. It created the expectation that you were stacking all means of progression on a daily basis, making for a larger treadmill, but also leading a lot of players into eventual burnout.

Early WoW however was designed more around the latter and trusted most players wouldn't do every heroic every day, plus all the daily quests, plus farm for crafted gear, plus do arenas. Ultimately, this meant people who were doing all roads were getting ahead faster, which meant it became the "meta" to do things like double raid each week, or PvP in a PvE guild (and vice-versa), on top of the more normal things like doing your dailies or running heroics. And still we ended up at burnout for the people that were doing it.

[draugril]

I dont know its seems rather insane to be to justify XIV is hard to get into because of the story, which you only need to once in your life, to compete with wow which has multiple maintenance system that you need to do every expansion AND every patch. Like at least dont pick wow for the compassion

They are people just in this expansion that gone through litterarly setting up alts, which "new players" also do btw. because they want to try stuff ot, for dozen of hours chores

I'm speaking to WoW players, specifically, who generally don't see the value in story at all. Yes, the story and levelling experience of FFXIV is its main selling point. That is utterly meaningless to a playerbase that has been conditioned to discard story and get to endgame activity. You're jumping in midway through a discussion and kind of missing the forest for the trees, here.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

"Many activities leading to the same goal." And that brings us back to the same question that has haunted WoW for a decade.

Are the majority of WoW players no life progressionists, or casuals that will just do what they find fun?

Blizz has long skewed to the former in their designs, assuming that players if given 5 ways to reach 1 goal will choose to stack all 5 daily for maximum efficiency and thus "break the intended progression." So we get systems that are designed to be entirely self-contained. You run Torghast to get Legendaries, you run World Quests to get Anima, you run Raids to get Gear. It created the expectation that you were stacking all means of progression on a daily basis, making for a larger treadmill, but also leading a lot of players into eventual burnout.

Early WoW however was designed more around the latter and trusted most players wouldn't do every heroic every day, plus all the daily quests, plus farm for crafted gear, plus do arenas. Ultimately, this meant people who were doing all roads were getting ahead faster, which meant it became the "meta" to do things like double raid each week, or PvP in a PvE guild (and vice-versa), on top of the more normal things like doing your dailies or running heroics. And still we ended up at burnout for the people that were doing it.

I liked how in MoP I could just do PvP (and later on, Timeless Isle) to gear up and then join a PuG using that gear. Sure, the tier bonuses from the PvP sets weren't useful in raids but those were negligible and the stats were good enough. I was able to do the content I found fun (battlegrounds and chilling out on Timeless Isle) and then do the content I found fun (raids with not all of the mechanics stripped away) and didn't have to slog through stuff I hated (farming dungeons and raids to get geared up to do the raids I actually wanted to do).

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I'm speaking to WoW players, specifically, who generally don't see the value in story at all. Yes, the story and levelling experience of FFXIV is its main selling point. That is utterly meaningless to a playerbase that has been conditioned to discard story and get to endgame activity. You're jumping in midway through a discussion and kind of missing the forest for the trees, here.

At this point, I don't think switching to a heavy emphasis on mandatory story like FFXIV's MSQ is going to help out WoW. You're just going to alienate the WoW fans who are left. The game isn't really attracting new players and most of the people are left just don't like story heavy JRPGs.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I dont know its seems rather insane to be to justify XIV is hard to get into because of the story

The FFXIV story right now is 300+ hours long, 100 hours of those are cutscenes, not even counting the time spent talking to NPCs or traveling. To a WoW player, telling them that they have to go through 300+ hours of a singleplayer JRPG before they can start doing the new hot raids with their friends is intimidating, especially since your average WoW player is no longer a teenager with unlimited free time anymore. Then again, FFXIV doesn't have much crossover appeal with WoW.

[draugril]

I liked how in MoP I could just do PvP (and later on, Timeless Isle) to gear up and then join a PuG using that gear. Sure, the tier bonuses from the PvP sets weren't useful in raids but those were negligible and the stats were good enough. I was able to do the content I found fun (battlegrounds and chilling out on Timeless Isle) and then do the content I found fun (raids with not all of the mechanics stripped away) and didn't have to slog through stuff I hated (farming dungeons and raids to get geared up to do the raids I actually wanted to do).

Precisely. And that's an element of FFXIV I'm enjoying - which they took from MoP, ironically enough. I had a friend, after years of on/off gameplay, finally get to the level cap and unlock some Extremes and Savage. I literally crafted him a set and he was viable enough to start endgame content a half an hour after hitting the cap. He didn't need to grind out whatever else before he could do the content he enjoyed. We jumped right in together, and its been great.