I think content designed for everyone can't succeed

[Postmasters]

It seems to be a common factor behind a lot of blizzards systems when it comes to new content designed for the game. No matter what the intent of the content orginally was the moment it is implemented as a step in progression it instantly becomes watered down to unbelievably dull and repetitive content.

If the game wants to find its footing again I think it needs to be brave enough to make content that requires players to perform at a certain base level to advance and not be flexible.

You can see it with any content in the game. Once something becomes unable to be failed it loses all value. From leveling to heroic dungeons to lfr.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

welcome back Krakan


but I'm not sure if I'm following. Are you saying "watered down" by them nerfing content afer they implement it? Are you saying that players to aspire to play better in order to clear more difficult/challenging difficulties such as normal --> heroic --> mythic raids?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I think I agree, but can you give us some examples?

[Paperfox]

What would happen if they created new servers for the esports crowd? Since they focus on endgame content, the trip to 60 (or whatever the highest level is) would be significantly cut short, you could send a character, items or gold there for free but you couldn't bring them back to your server for free. And have a paid duplicate character service.

[Alvito]

It depends on how they design it for everybody and the type of content. If we look at Legion content as an example it was great at giving multiple types of reasons and rewards for doing things. Warden Tower WQ are a great example. In a single WQ you would get honor, which had it's own subsection of various rewards, AP, freequently gear or xmog and whatever other rewards the place had at the time. You would get in a little quick pvp if that was what you wanted or just zip in kill your 10 things and bounce.

[Khaza-R]

I understand where you are coming from but also disagree.

The game was arguably its most successful when everyone was engaging in the same content and not multiple stratified difficulties. That's not to say dismantling the current system is even their agenda in the first place. Personally I think its more likely we will see a semi-viable solo progression path added like we saw in BfA

[Soon-TM]

WoW was very much the "designed for everyone" MMO from the very beginning, and that was one of the reasons why it managed to quickly dwarf established behemoths (at the time) such as EQ or UO. If anything, I'd say that the opposite holds true, i.e. content designed for the top 2% of players can't succeed.

[TrollHunter3000]

It seems to be a common factor behind a lot of blizzards systems when it comes to new content designed for the game. No matter what the intent of the content orginally was the moment it is implemented as a step in progression it instantly becomes watered down to unbelievably dull and repetitive content.

If the game wants to find its footing again I think it needs to be brave enough to make content that requires players to perform at a certain base level to advance and not be flexible.

You can see it with any content in the game. Once something becomes unable to be failed it loses all value. From leveling to heroic dungeons to lfr.

Most people quit wow because it's too much time to actually be competitive. That's it. You're literally saying the opposite of what would help retain most players.

[Tyris Flare]

welcome back Krakan


but I'm not sure if I'm following. Are you saying "watered down" by them nerfing content afer they implement it? Are you saying that players to aspire to play better in order to clear more difficult/challenging difficulties such as normal --> heroic --> mythic raids?

is this Empower?

[Postmasters]

I think I agree, but can you give us some examples?

I'm speaking of content designed to both be fail proof and tied into progression. Think torghast and warfront. I want to include systems like AP and conduits that incentivize trivial content but that is more a systems problem then the content itself.

Easy content is fine but it must hold zero value to those who passed by it.

[draugril]

I'm speaking of content designed to both be fail proof and tied into progression. Think torghast and warfront. I want to include systems like AP and conduits that incentivize trivial content but that is more a systems problem then the content itself.

Easy content is fine but it must hold zero value to those who passed by it.

Blizzard needs to be confident enough to let its features stand on their own without tying everything into endgame power progression.

Torghast would have been one of the most innovative additions to the game if it wasn't hamstrung by the obligation of millions of players being forced into the content to get their legendary to do other content. If it was designed specifically for people that would be interested in a rogue-like experience in WoW, it would be unleashed and probably fantastic.

[korijenkins]

Something Blizzard fails to realize is that the raiding scene shouldn't be easy, nor should mythic + serve as a complete alternative.

One major issue with raiding was the removal of the 10/25 man structure in favor of what we have now. 10 man allowed smaller guilds to exist, which meant more guilds overall, which meant less competition to recruit/get into a group.

LFR was a stupid fucking idea as well. Disregarding the fact that you can go in there, right click the boss, and tab out for free loot, it trivialized endgame content to an extent that has never been seen before. Raids always had a wow factor when you first went to them that they now completely lack due to accessibility on trivial difficulties.

This is at least the main example I can find of Blizzard trying to make content designed for everyone. They had a fucking phenomenal raiding setup through Firelands and completely threw it away for accessibility which ultimately just made the content age faster and made interest in raiding dwindle.

[crakerjack]

The one thing WoW excels at is raiding. If raiding wasn’t the focal point of expansions and was push down the priority list for mundane solo content, I’d quit and not look back. What drew me into WoW was playing with numerous other people to kill difficult bosses and relish in the glory together.

[darklogrus]

Something Blizzard fails to realize is that the raiding scene shouldn't be easy, nor should mythic + serve as a complete alternative.

One major issue with raiding was the removal of the 10/25 man structure in favor of what we have now. 10 man allowed smaller guilds to exist, which meant more guilds overall, which meant less competition to recruit/get into a group.

LFR was a stupid fucking idea as well. Disregarding the fact that you can go in there, right click the boss, and tab out for free loot, it trivialized endgame content to an extent that has never been seen before. Raids always had a wow factor when you first went to them that they now completely lack due to accessibility on trivial difficulties.

This is at least the main example I can find of Blizzard trying to make content designed for everyone. They had a fucking phenomenal raiding setup through Firelands and completely threw it away for accessibility which ultimately just made the content age faster and made interest in raiding dwindle.

You can tell this person hasn't fired up Wow in a very long time...

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The one thing WoW excels at is raiding. If raiding wasn’t the focal point of expansions and was push down the priority list for mundane solo content, I’d quit and not look back. What drew me into WoW was playing with numerous other people to kill difficult bosses and relish in the glory together.

Raiding is pretty much the only thing Wow excels in and its ran its course..

[Lochton]

It seems to be a common factor behind a lot of blizzards systems when it comes to new content designed for the game. No matter what the intent of the content orginally was the moment it is implemented as a step in progression it instantly becomes watered down to unbelievably dull and repetitive content.

If the game wants to find its footing again I think it needs to be brave enough to make content that requires players to perform at a certain base level to advance and not be flexible.

You can see it with any content in the game. Once something becomes unable to be failed it loses all value. From leveling to heroic dungeons to lfr.

That is why they shouldn't design the same content for everyone but more options, some might not be for everyone.

WoW currently has a problem, its main 'end-game' peak is currently raiding, PvP, and Mythic+, nothing more, leaving out a majority of interest in the world, and the character. We need to flatten the line, not peak at three things, and then forget the rest.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

is this Empower?

Yes, that account as well. This is like the 4th one.

[Postmasters]

That is why they shouldn't design the same content for everyone but more options, some might not be for everyone.

WoW currently has a problem, its main 'end-game' peak is currently raiding, PvP, and Mythic+, nothing more, leaving out a majority of interest in the world, and the character. We need to flatten the line, not peak at three things, and then forget the rest.

What would other end game content look like though? The only thing that comes to mind is mage tower and visions. Both of those don't seem feel deep enough to me for their own focus and their is a good argument to be had a mmo should focus on group play.

[KainneAbsolute]

I think you are right, but wow is in a different state. I guess that at Vainilla WoW had a similar audience. After many years, the audience diversified and the team tried to keep everyone in different game activities.

However, each year there are more player types and Blizzard needs more to satisfy all of them, and at the same time bring incentives for them to play together (or at least try other types of content). As always, Blizzard disguise "bad decisions" (timegated content, conduits, difficult change of covenants), but, in fact, they want to keep people subscribed with the least amount of effort. Blizzard needs to work a loot, bring a creative and fun solution or admit the content and subscriptions lows is part of wow.

[Sensa1]

You're sort of right...You simply can't try to be all things to all people because in the end no one is really satisfied. This isn't rocket science.

Additionally, the switch to focus on MAU's is leading to metrics driving design decisions rather than the production of compelling content leading to people playing longer. That's why for at least the last 3 expansion they have essentially put lipstick on a pig by simply renaming MAU systems then trotting out Ion to apologize 1/2 through the expansion to only see more lipstick applied in the next expansion. And, unfortunately, tokens, boosting and mount collector's / store customers are distorting the true picture since those folks are spending more than ever regardless of the state of the game.

And compelling content in an MMO is inherently tied to meaningful rewards and progression. In Classic, for example, there was a shield from SM that was BIS until lvl 60 for Shamans (there are lots of even better examples but you get the point). In today's game gear is made irrelevant almost the moment you earn it. Most other MMO's also do a much better job on crafting, that can provide compelling game play, which has all but been abandoned by Blizzard.

While special snowflakes have long been lambasted, and I'm not one of them, you actually need meaningful, lasting rewards commensurate with effort / time in a game. The Oprah method of game design, "You win a car, You also win a car...everyone wins a car" produces a crappy product that players are not invested in or feel compelled to complete (hence the greater and greater reliance on MAU driven uninspiring gated design and reliance on Store Whales).

[Azxza]

This isn’t even in the top 10 of things wrong with WoW.