Blizzard has cheated you out of a raid

[Lolites]

Unless you meant the assets\location, being similar?

which is, to no surprise, at best bit disingenuous, as highmaul and blackrock foundry also used a lot off assets from nagrand/gorgrond(and dungeons there and some generic iron horde assets)...

[Tojara]

Lol I think the hilarious part of this post is you believing you hit some massive revelation. I can just picture you clapping and as you hit the post button you whisper "nailed it".

No shit sherlock. Anybody without brain damage realizes the lack of content, and the word content is important.

The amount of raids really doesn't matter if the quality of the raids is good and is accompanied by other content as well. Criticizing WoD because of just 3 raids entirely misses the point about why a lot were upset with the expansion, and the same can ultimately be said about Shadowlands when it undoubtedly has 3 raids.

Focusing entirely on raids just misses the point. WoD had amazing raids and barely anything else. Good expansions have good raids, dungeons, leveling, and generally good content pacing. WoD didn't hit many of those marks and Shadowlands is looking to be the same.

[hulkgor]

which is, to no surprise, at best bit disingenuous, as highmaul and blackrock foundry also used a lot off assets from nagrand/gorgrond(and dungeons there and some generic iron horde assets)...

It is. And in my opinion, they should do it even more, as they did before. On TBC for example, they use same assets for 3 dungeons + 1 raid, MULTIPLE times! (Hellfire Citadel, Coilfang Reservoir, Auchindon, Tempest Keep all have multiple instanced locations). Even WOTLK does it (Ulduar, Hall of Stones, Hall of Lightning), bla bla. That way we can have a lot more content. Unique assets is a waste of resources.

[Nefastus]

Censoring stuff from vanila until shadowlands take time and people. They cant make raids for you and censor stuff at the same time. Its still a great investiment, paying 15 bucks per month to have stuff removed so you dont become a sexual deviant you know. The bowl of fruit painting for instance, just imagine how many people it saved, the previous painting could drive a man to follow his most primitive instincts.

[Lolites]

It is. And in my opinion, they should do it even more, as they did before. On TBC for example, they use same assets for 3 dungeons + 1 raid, MULTIPLE times! (Hellfire Citadel, Coilfang Reservoir, Auchindon, Tempest Keep all have multiple instanced locations). Even WOTLK does it (Ulduar, Hall of Stones, Hall of Lightning), bla bla. That way we can have a lot more content. Unique assets is a waste of resources.

i agree, dont know why they left that attitude

[Kallisto]

i agree, dont know why they left that attitude

Because during wrath and cata they were being massacred by the player base in the official forums and other forums for being lazy for daring to reuse assets.

[C20]

Let's cover the number of bosses per expansion (excluding vanilla)

TBC
KZ: 11 bosses
GL: 2 bosses
ML: 1 boss
SSC: 6 bosses
TK: 4 bosses
MH: 5 bosses
BT: 9 bosses
SP: 8 bosses (many guilds didn't even get chance to kill most of these before Wrath)

46 bosses (not including KZ or ZA, but add more bosses to the number if you want to include those)

Wrath
VoA: 4 bosses
Naxx: 15 bosses (rehashes)
OS: 1
EoE: 1
Ulduar: 14 bosses (including Algalon)
ToC: 5 bosses
IC: 12 bosses
RS: 1 boss

53 bosses

Cataclysm

BH: 3
BWD: 6
BoT: 5
ToFW: 2
FL: 7
DS: 8

31 Bosses

Mists

MSV: 6
HoF: 6
ToES: 4
ToT: 13 (including Ra-den)
SoE: 14

43 bosses (excluding world bosses).

Warlords
HM: 7
BrF: 10
HfC: 13

30 bosses (excluding world bosses).

Legion

EN: 7
ToV: 3
NH: 10
ToS: 9
AtBT: 11

40 bosses (excluding world bosses, invasion points)

BFA

UL: 8
BoD: 9
CoS: 2
EP: 8
NtWS: 12

39 bosses (excluding world bosses)

SL (so far)

CN: 10
SoD: 10

20 bosses so far (excluding world bosses)

Summary
TBC: 46
Wrath: 53
Cata: 31
Mists: 43
Warlords: 30
Legion: 40
BFA: 39
SL (so far): 20

Let's look at what each expansion offered outside of raiding, questing, normal and heroic 5-man dungeons (since those are available in all expansions).

TBC:
- Attunements
- Isle of QD

Wrath:
- ToC mounts/rewards
- Badge grinding

Cata:
- Molten front

Mists:
- World bosses
- Challenge modes
- Legendary cloak grinding
- Timeless Isle

Warlords:
- World bosses
- Garrison events
- Adventure table
- Mythic dungeons

Legion:
- World bosses
- Adventure table
- Mage Tower
- Artifact grinding
- Legendary grinding
- Mythic dungeons
- M+ dungeons

BFA:
- World bosses
- Adventure table
- Legendary grinding
- Orgrimmar + Stormwind visions
- Warfronts
- Island expeditions
- Mythic dungeons
- M+ dungeons


SL (so far):
- World bosses
- Adventure table
- Legendary grinding
- Torghast
- Maw grinding + events
- Anima grinding
- The 4 different anima-powered parts of your covenant (e.g. the arena for Kyrian, the garden for Night Fae)
- Mythic dungeons
- M+ dungeons

This list isn't comprehensive, and I might have missed some points for each expansion (TBC for example, I can't recall anything that stood out over the other expansions besides attunements and the Isle).

So, what point am I trying to make?

Warlords, Cata and SL all had similar amount of bosses, but had varying amounts of non-raid content. Excluding SL, both Warlords and Cata tend to do worse in the 'favourite expansion' votes we've seen on the forums over the years.

Legion, BFA and Mists had similar amount of bosses, but also varying amounts of non-raid content. Legion tends to sit very highly in most votes, while the others tend to sit below Wrath and even TBC.

TBC and Wrath both had similar amounts of bosses, but very low amounts of non-raid content, especially until later in the expansions. Wrath is often rated very highly, with TBC trailing it.

There's certainly some possible correlation between the number of raid bosses and general player satisfaction, but it's more complex than that. Non-raid content plays a big role in it. As time has gone on, more non-raid content has been added to the game. An expansion like TBC would likely be voted very far down if it was released today. Likewise, if an expansion like Legion had been released at the start, every expansion after it would likely be compared against it, and anything with less raid bosses and less world content (or more grindy world content) would have a negative impact on the vote.

[korijenkins]

WoD had one less raid and therefore significantly less raid content than expansions before it, which caused an outrage at the time. It was a sign that Blizzard had given up on the expansion. When they announced that HFC was the last raid of the expansion, people were furious.

Yes but the garrison jukebox was a major content update.

[Critical92]

The numbers of bosses or when a raid released doesn't matter. What counts are the itemsets. Do both raids share the same set? Yes? That means they belong to the same tier. End of story.

[McNeil]

Not just raids, we also got far too few zones which annoys me a whole lot more. We don’t even have a proper continent. Even our neutral capital is basically an airport.

[Khaza-R]

Not just raids, we also got far too few zones which annoys me a whole lot more. We don’t even have a proper continent. Even our neutral capital is basically an airport.

I deeply fear that 9.2 is going to look a lot like Oribos.

Meaning extremely boring and bland.

[Vampyrr]

WoD had one less raid and therefore significantly less raid content than expansions before it, which caused an outrage at the time. It was a sign that Blizzard had given up on the expansion. When they announced that HFC was the last raid of the expansion, people were furious.

The raiding was the one thing people DIDN'T complain about so your take is still bad. The raids in WoD were the best of that expansion and have been praised as some of the better raids of any expac. There is plenty to complain about with WoD, but raiding isnt one of them.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I deeply fear that 9.2 is going to look a lot like Oribos.

Meaning extremely boring and bland.

Nah them fractals will at least look like tron .

[Greyvax]

Let's cover the number of bosses per expansion (excluding vanilla)

TBC
KZ: 11 bosses
GL: 2 bosses
ML: 1 boss
SSC: 6 bosses
TK: 4 bosses
MH: 5 bosses
BT: 9 bosses
SP: 8 bosses (many guilds didn't even get chance to kill most of these before Wrath)

46 bosses (not including KZ or ZA, but add more bosses to the number if you want to include those)

Wrath
VoA: 4 bosses
Naxx: 15 bosses (rehashes)
OS: 1
EoE: 1
Ulduar: 14 bosses (including Algalon)
ToC: 5 bosses
IC: 12 bosses
RS: 1 boss

53 bosses

Cataclysm

BH: 3
BWD: 6
BoT: 5
ToFW: 2
FL: 7
DS: 8

31 Bosses

Mists

MSV: 6
HoF: 6
ToES: 4
ToT: 13 (including Ra-den)
SoE: 14

43 bosses (excluding world bosses).

Warlords
HM: 7
BrF: 10
HfC: 13

30 bosses (excluding world bosses).

Legion

EN: 7
ToV: 3
NH: 10
ToS: 9
AtBT: 11

40 bosses (excluding world bosses, invasion points)

BFA

UL: 8
BoD: 9
CoS: 2
EP: 8
NtWS: 12

39 bosses (excluding world bosses)

SL (so far)

CN: 10
SoD: 10

20 bosses so far (excluding world bosses)

Summary
TBC: 46
Wrath: 53
Cata: 31
Mists: 43
Warlords: 30
Legion: 40
BFA: 39
SL (so far): 20

Let's look at what each expansion offered outside of raiding, questing, normal and heroic 5-man dungeons (since those are available in all expansions).

TBC:
- Attunements
- Isle of QD

Wrath:
- ToC mounts/rewards

Cata:
- Molten front

Mists:
- World bosses
- Mythic dungeons
- Legendary cloak grinding
- Timeless Isle

Warlords:
- World bosses
- Garrison events
- Adventure table
- Mythic dungeons

Legion:
- World bosses
- Adventure table
- Mage Tower
- Artifact grinding
- Legendary grinding
- Mythic dungeons

BFA:
- World bosses
- Adventure table
- Legendary grinding
- Orgrimmar + Stormwind visions
- Warfronts
- Island expeditions

SL (so far):
- World bosses
- Adventure table
- Legendary grinding
- Torghast
- Maw grinding + events
- Anima grinding
- The 4 different anima-powered parts of your covenant (e.g. the arena for Kyrian, the garden for Night Fae)

This list isn't comprehensive, and I might have missed some points for each expansion (TBC for example, I can't recall anything that stood out over the other expansions besides attunements and the Isle).

So, what point am I trying to make?

Warlords, Cata and SL all had similar amount of bosses, but had varying amounts of non-raid content. Excluding SL, both Warlords and Cata tend to do worse in the 'favourite expansion' votes we've seen on the forums over the years.

Legion, BFA and Mists had similar amount of bosses, but also varying amounts of non-raid content. Legion tends to sit very highly in most votes, while the others tend to sit below Wrath and even TBC.

TBC and Wrath both had similar amounts of bosses, but very low amounts of non-raid content, especially until later in the expansions. Wrath is often rated very highly, with TBC trailing it.

There's certainly some possible correlation between the number of raid bosses and general player satisfaction, but it's more complex than that. Non-raid content plays a big role in it. As time has gone on, more non-raid content has been added to the game. An expansion like TBC would likely be voted very far down if it was released today. Likewise, if an expansion like Legion had been released at the start, every expansion after it would likely be compared against it, and anything with less raid bosses and less world content (or more grindy world content) would have a negative impact on the vote.

Way to leave off most of the content from previous expansions just to bias your argument and express your pro-shadowlands pro-blizzard support.

[Vampyrr]

snip

One edit. MoP did not have Mythic dungeons it had challenge mode dungeons which are significantly different. Legion is where M+ was introduced so Id add in clarification there otherwise good post.

[C20]

Way to leave off most of the content from previous expansions just to bias your argument and express your pro-shadowlands pro-blizzard support.

Way to completely miss the part where I said that "I might have missed some points for each expansion". Like most humans, my memory isn't flawless.

If you have something to add, you're more than welcome to contribute, but drop the attitude first.

One edit. MoP did not have Mythic dungeons it had challenge mode dungeons which are significantly different. Legion is where M+ was introduced so Id add in clarification there otherwise good post.

Thanks for the correction. Updating the post.

[MrLachyG]

If the "Story" Ends with 9.2 im sure a LOT of people will be very happy

I honestly can’t see how the story of Shadowlands will progress further post 9.2, the Jailer has to be the next end boss. I reckon the reason 9.1 took so long is because it was actually meant to be 9.2 but got pushed forward.

[ohwell]

go to wowpedia or where and look it up, Dazar alor was 8.1(.5?) raid and nighthold was opened in 7.1.5...

Technically they are correct in that ever since Highmaul(which technically wasn't a "tier" raid) up until Legion Blizzard had a "starter" raid that was fully intended to be semi coupled with the 2nd instance not necessarily in story, but that they were both the first tier of raiding for the expansion. People kept saying BrF was the 2nd raid tier when it was semi explicitly stated that Highmaul wasn't a raid tier for some reason. The same thing happened with Legion. However, Legion muddied that with ToV between the 2 and then BfA it was never stated or even implied that Dazaralor was supposed to be coupled.

I think Nighthold got delayed and they shoved out ToV real quick to sate people. But like I said, those were only 2 expansions that were supposed to be like that only because they wanted to make people wait for some reason while other expansions had multiple raid instances from the get go like Cata and WotLK(can't recall if MoP had HoF at the start or just Vaults).

[azka]

As much as I disagree with how this post has been presented. I see a valid point: we are never informed what an expansion will contain (in terms of raids) until they announce the last patch.

What are you actually purchasing when you pay for Shadowlands?
The website states that for the Base Edition, you get:

[COLOR=rgba(255, 255, 255, 0.72)]Includes World of Warcraft®: Shadowlands, the Wandering Ancient mount, and access to Death Knights for Allied Races and Pandaren. Players who own the Base Edition may also begin the quest for the Vestments of the Eternal Traveler by seeking out another player who owns the Heroic or Epic Edition.[/COLOR]

If you see the reveal presentation video

You will see these highlights:
- Explore the Afterlives. SHADOWLANDS
- New Zone. REVENDRETH
- New Zone. ARDENWEALD
- New Zone. MALDRAXXUS
- New Zone. BASTION
- CHOOSE A COVENANT
- NEW DUNGEONS AND RAIDS
- ASCEND THE TOWER OF THE DAMNED

Here is the deep dive panel


In all this communication, they never told us how many raid tiers we were going to have. They just told us we were going to have new.
So, they couldn't lie to us or rob us of anything if nothing was promised.

BUT, I do agree that in the future, we need more clarity about the PLAN.
For a lot of us, Raids are our main content. I could give two flying f88s about the story or if a raid has context into an expansion or the lore of the raid. Not everything needs to have a deep explanation or context. Geez, I just want more raid content.

[Coniferous]

WoD raid content was fantastic, it was the lack of things outside of raiding that sucked.

Your take is bad.

Wow raid content was fantastic, but there was less raid content than any other expansion. I think only Cata comes close, and Cata's was better spaced out.