I think content designed for everyone can't succeed

[The Stormbringer]

I understand where you are coming from but also disagree.

The game was arguably its most successful when everyone was engaging in the same content and not multiple stratified difficulties. That's not to say dismantling the current system is even their agenda in the first place. Personally I think its more likely we will see a semi-viable solo progression path added like we saw in BfA

At what time was everyone engaging in the same content? Which content was "everyone" engaging in? Please enlighten us.

[jazen]

The 'esportification' of WoW is the single largest reason for the decline in subscriptions. Making it so the average player (casual in WoW vernacular) can't be competitive may make the 10% (OoA number) of WoW players that raid mythic/arena happy, but it doesn't make the average player want to try.

[hulkgor]

That's why there should be something for everyone.

[Coldkil]

Except the game used to be significantly more solo friendly. It is recent expansions that moved away from that.

It's not really an issue of solo friendly or not. It's a matter of redoing thorghast and campaigns on every single char, having to do m+ to gear up for raid or the opposite due ti trinkets or other amenities, or even pvp.

After leveling and unlocking world content, you should just be anle to jump directly into raid, m+ or pvp. If you want to do all three, you'll have three different progression paths separate from each other. So, if you want to do only one, you'll have everything you need through that. If you have time and want to do everything, you'll have a ckar progression path through each of it.

[Log Cabin]

It's not really an issue of solo friendly or not. It's a matter of redoing thorghast and campaigns on every single char, having to do m+ to gear up for raid or the opposite due ti trinkets or other amenities, or even pvp.

After leveling and unlocking world content, you should just be anle to jump directly into raid, m+ or pvp. If you want to do all three, you'll have three different progression paths separate from each other. So, if you want to do only one, you'll have everything you need through that. If you have time and want to do everything, you'll have a ckar progression path through each of it.

This would be the best way to do it. I don't know why blizzard is hell bent on trying to force drastically different players together.

[M1r4g3]

This would be the best way to do it. I don't know why blizzard is hell bent on trying to force drastically different players together.

Because its cheaper to design one thing than multiple things, and besides, they made the game in a way where profit isn't that linked to how good the game.

[Log Cabin]

Because its cheaper to design one thing than multiple things, and besides, they made the game in a way where profit isn't that linked to how good the game.

I don't really know if that is holding true. I don't get the sense blizzard is overly confident atm. It could be me but the current pr campaign comes across as them staggering from an unexpected blow.

[Coldkil]

This would be the best way to do it. I don't know why blizzard is hell bent on trying to force drastically different players together.

I think it's literally a "metrics" problem. They design new content, and to shareholders/management they need to show how good it is by showing how many people partake in it and how many hours are spent in it.

Problem is, time spent is not directly tied to quality. Thorghast would probably be largely ignored if it didn't have legendaries tied to it. And now you have a farming thing to make you run it more times. Most players generally care about player power and if some activity doesn't give any, then it's automatically low priority.

A system like i have described won't make more people play - on the contrary you'll have generally less people into each branch. But all the players doing it will be commmitted to it because it's what they like to do and have similar mindsets etc. making the experience better for everyone.

Also, this doesn't stop anyone from doing something else that's available in game later on when they're done with the activity they prefer/do in first place. And even if they stop playing, it's not really different from now. Actually people now go because they're tired of the situation; in my system people go just because they have done what they found fun without any grudge towards the game. They're simply content and will just get back when new content ships.

They need to stop designing the game around keeping people online as much as possibile. It simply doesn't work.

[M1r4g3]

I don't really know if that is holding true. I don't get the sense blizzard is overly confident atm. It could be me but the current pr campaign comes across as them staggering from an unexpected blow.

It shifts around depending on a few factors, but in this current shitshow they benefit more from making something good(positive pr) rather than ''profitable''(cause you cant exactly quantify pr i guess?).

[MidnyteTV]

Well WoW is a giant piece of canvas, and let the players paint their own picture as they see fit. Just don't make it hard for them to get paint and paintbrushes.

[Alkizon]

We need to flatten the line, not peak at three things, and then forget the rest

I like this phrase, it's simple enough to formulate and understand *scratches beard remembering all own messages, thinking about where to stick it*

[chiddie]

What would other end game content look like though? The only thing that comes to mind is mage tower and visions. Both of those don't seem feel deep enough to me for their own focus and their is a good argument to be had a mmo should focus on group play.

It would look like having other 1000 quest lines to do when you hit max level that expand the story and give char progression for example.

Or make crafting worth it with receipts that require long/fun chains.

Or make rep rewards worth them so the grind makes sense.

The main problem in WoW is that players are more worried about others not having gear rather than simply not caring about what others have and do the content they want to do for the sake of having fun doing it. Everyone fills his mouth with “I do it for the sake of challenge”, let’s roll a test season in which max level gear comes with normal raiding and M+5 max and let’s see how high the commitment will be with mythic raiding and M+15.

My friends in D3 often do GRs 10-15 levels above me due to different class/spec/skill, we have roughly the same gear level and they just don’t care because the focus is not /flex in front of AH waiting to be inspected.

It’s time for the game to choose for REAL if it wants to cope with casuals or not.

[NineSpine]

It's not really an issue of solo friendly or not. It's a matter of redoing thorghast and campaigns on every single char, having to do m+ to gear up for raid or the opposite due ti trinkets or other amenities, or even pvp.

After leveling and unlocking world content, you should just be anle to jump directly into raid, m+ or pvp. If you want to do all three, you'll have three different progression paths separate from each other. So, if you want to do only one, you'll have everything you need through that. If you have time and want to do everything, you'll have a ckar progression path through each of it.

The problem is that M+, rated pvp, and raiding are the only things to really engage with at endgame. All of those are niche activities meant for difficulty-seeking players.

[Caerrona]

It would look like having other 1000 quest lines to do when you hit max level that expand the story and give char progression for example.

Or make crafting worth it with receipts that require long/fun chains.

Or make rep rewards worth them so the grind makes sense.

The main problem in WoW is that players are more worried about others not having gear rather than simply not caring about what others have and do the content they want to do for the sake of having fun doing it. Everyone fills his mouth with “I do it for the sake of challenge”, let’s roll a test season in which max level gear comes with normal raiding and M+5 max and let’s see how high the commitment will be with mythic raiding and M+15.

My friends in D3 often do GRs 10-15 levels above me due to different class/spec/skill, we have roughly the same gear level and they just don’t care because the focus is not /flex in front of AH waiting to be inspected.

It’s time for the game to choose for REAL if it wants to cope with casuals or not.

In the entirety of world of warcraft existing, the whole thing, almost 17 years, the game has never coped with casuals.

Not once, the best gear was always from end game content.

Just because bad players thought that "content" in vanilla was pressing w for 8 hours a day or welfare badge gear in wrath was "good gear" doesn't mean it was like that.

[chiddie]

In the entirety of world of warcraft existing, the whole thing, almost 17 years, the game has never coped with casuals.

Not once, the best gear was always from end game content.

Just because bad players thought that "content" in vanilla was pressing w for 8 hours a day or welfare badge gear in wrath was "good gear" doesn't mean it was like that.

End game content is simply content that you can only do at max level.

Being it easy/difficult or fun/boring or whatever is a different story.

17 years have passed, game is losing subs (including mine), maybe it’s time to make a little steering on “end game” content.

Also, as I said in my post you replied to, why do you care about bad players? What if I get my 450ilvl shoulders by doing 10.000 circles in Oribos? How does this affect the content you do?

[GreenJesus]

I think I agree, but can you give us some examples?

Warfronts were made so brain dead easy that streamers put together pre-made groups to test if it was possible to fail by going afk. Blizzard could have made an engaging RTS mode, but they had to make it even easier than LFR so Billy could do it.

[chiddie]

Warfronts were made so brain dead easy that streamers put together pre-made groups to test if it was possible to fail by going afk. Blizzard could have made an engaging RTS mode, but they had to make it even easier than LFR so Billy could do it.

They made them easy in order for them not to last two hours each. In rts you can just save the game and pick it up from where you were one month later, in a mmorpg you can’t.

That is also why noone bothers doing the twisted corridors in Thorgast.

[Lolites]

Additionally, the switch to focus on MAU's is leading to metrics driving design decisions rather than the production of compelling content leading to people playing longer. That's why for at least the last 3 expansion they have essentially put lipstick on a pig by simply renaming MAU systems

timegating i would say do get in line with MAUs but systems? hell no...
systems that make you grind shite or whatnot are not helping MAUs at all, as for MAU it doesnt matter if you log once a month for 5 minutes or play 24/7...
and timegating was in wow since vanila, so if you just noticed it im not sure what to tell you...

[Elias1337]

End game content is simply content that you can only do at max level.

Being it easy/difficult or fun/boring or whatever is a different story.

17 years have passed, game is losing subs (including mine), maybe it’s time to make a little steering on “end game” content.

Also, as I said in my post you replied to, why do you care about bad players? What if I get my 450ilvl shoulders by doing 10.000 circles in Oribos? How does this affect the content you do?

It affects how will players feel about rewaeds they get and effort they put into the game. You can argue that its just game as you want. It wont ever change peoples aproach toward rewards and effort. People suddendly do not behave differently just becouse they play game and they shouldnt.

People what defend this type of communist system are only those what profit from it. Aka lazy players.

[T-34]

It affects how will players feel about rewaeds they get and effort they put into the game. You can argue that its just game as you want that wont ever change peoples aproach to rewards and effort. People suddendly do not change behave differently just becouse they play game and they shouldnt.

People what defend this type of communist system are only those what profit from it. Aka lazy players.

Exactly! Players that wilfully refuse to be the best they can be and who don't respect the time and efforts of their fellow players try to represent themselves as "persecuted casuals" by the "evil gatekeeping elitists", whereas this isn't a question of casuals vs. hardcore' - this is a question whether reward should follow difficulty of content or not.

You can easily find casual players that can clear the hardest content in-game, just as you can easily find people that play the game hardcore who aren't able to do silver proving grounds.

People that advocate for that trivial content should give the highest rewards aren't casual - they are players that wilfully refuse to put in an effort and who are rightfully ridiculed and shunned by normal players, casuals as well as hardcore.