The case for high end gear from WQ and Torghast

[NineSpine]

You just said you do random BG's. Aside from affixes, a timer and scaling, M+ is literally the same thing.

I assume you mean dungeons, and saying "Aside from core differences that completely change how it works, including an inability to queue for it, it's the same" is a joke. My sandwich and my car are the same thing aside from the material they are made out of and their sizes.

Based on your comment about berating, it leads me to believe that the primary impedance is your fear of being attacked. Yes, that's a very possible scenario and it's unfortunate when it happens, but there's measure you can take to avoid it. First I would suggest joining a community or guild and let them know beforehand that you underperform and I can almost guarantee that they'll lend you a hand rather than spit on you. I've helped numerous people improve their performance, going from grey parses to purple parses.

Or I can just play a game that makes content for me and doesn't force me to play with people like you.

[PaladinBash]

Mazerunning sweaters will cry and bitch that things are 'mandatory' yet it is them and only them who do it out of the absolute terror that another of them will do it and get an imagined or real advantage over them, as trivial as it may or may not be. The entire game is held back because of these people who just spend all of this time they would be doing WQs everyday just selling boosts to lazy scrubs anyway so it's not like they do anything else and it's not like bads don't get just as much gear.

[crakerjack]

As usual, the raiders don't want anyone else to have good gear. They believe the raiders should get to SELL IT to the rest. What a crock.

Generally, I figure anyone against giving good gear to other than raiders and M+ are part of the gear-selling, and should be ignored.

Have a nice day.

Unless you can provide a logical/rational view on why people who strictly do solo content NEED better gear, then you're wasting everyones time. It's common sense that better gear is a necessity in raiding because bosses have enrage timers and better gear will increase the ceiling on performance so that raids can beat enrage timers. Just what solo content demands 252 ilvl gear?

[Adamas102]

The issue is that the solo content will always be easier than group content because they can't balance it for like 40 specs or whatever the number is.

Raiding content is designed to be hard and gear acquisition is necessary for it, and if there's an easy path to get gear then most raiders will do it, and they don't want to.

That's not an issue, though. Where did this fetish come from that games have to be hard to be rewarding and enjoyable? It's such a toxic mentality that people shouldn't have as much fun playing a game if they're doing it at a different difficulty level. Shit, back in the day you wouldn't even get anything special for playing a game on a higher difficulty. It was just there for the challenge.

If raiders just want the easiest, non-raiding way to get gear, then they're not really raiders to begin with. They're just loot whores who raid because that's the only way to get their fix.

[Log Cabin]

Unless you can provide a logical/rational view on why people who strictly do solo content NEED better gear, then you're wasting everyones time. It's common sense that better gear is a necessity in raiding because bosses have enrage timers and better gear will increase the ceiling on performance so that raids can beat enrage timers. Just what solo content demands 252 ilvl gear?

If solo content exists to allows that level of difficulty I don't think it would be an issue. I imagine a mage tower rewarding a mythic weapon (barring the push over feltotem fight) would of went over well. Visions as well felt mostly right maybe a touch to easy but close enough.

[Coniferous]

That's not an issue, though. Where did this fetish come from that games have to be hard to be rewarding and enjoyable? It's such a toxic mentality that people shouldn't have as much fun playing a game if they're doing it at a different difficulty level. Shit, back in the day you wouldn't even get anything special for playing a game on a higher difficulty. It was just there for the challenge.

If raiders just want the easiest, non-raiding way to get gear, then they're not really raiders to begin with. They're just loot whores who raid because that's the only way to get their fix.

It's not that nefarious. Most raiders want to be a positive contributor to their group, and if there's an easy path to get gear (because yes, world content will always be easy), then most raiders will do it, and those who won't will be drag on their group.

[Adamas102]

It's not that nefarious. Most raiders want to be a positive contributor to their group, and if there's an easy path to get gear (because yes, world content will always be easy), then most raiders will do it, and those who won't will be drag on their group.

That sounds more like an internal issue for the raid group if different priorities lead to friction between players. I'd also point out that from a social perspective it would be the players pushing others to do content they don't want to do who would be the drag on the group. Ideally they'd only group with players with the same mentality if it were that important to them. That's already the case with the different raid difficulties.

[Argorwal]

That sounds more like an internal issue for the raid group if different priorities lead to friction between players. I'd also point out that from a social perspective it would be the players pushing others to do content they don't want to do who would be the drag on the group. Ideally they'd only group with players with the same mentality if it were that important to them. That's already the case with the different raid difficulties.

How many times does it have to be proved it doesn’t quite work that way?

We just had 2 years of classic with world buffs and “just don’t get them” comments that were asinine.

[Coniferous]

That sounds more like an internal issue for the raid group if different priorities lead to friction between players. I'd also point out that from a social perspective it would be the players pushing others to do content they don't want to do who would be the drag on the group. Ideally they'd only group with players with the same mentality if it were that important to them. That's already the case with the different raid difficulties.

It's not. People respond to incentives, and making easy gear drop from world content is an incentive that won't be ignored. Like, let's say you play on a basketball team where you are allowed to wear platform shoes if you first do like, a ballet dance. Yes, some people might not do ballet, but those who do will start dominating games, and it basically becomes, do ballet, or drop down to a lower tier of play.

Listen, raiders and world players are never going to agree on this. There's no argument that will convince a non raider that it's good that he doesn't get that gear, and there's no argument that will convince a raider who doesn't like world content that good gear should drop from it. Ah well.

[Ehrenpanzer]

I can pay 150k once a week for a guaranteed piece of 252 loot from M+
but getting a 252 piece of loot from World Quests or Torghast takes less skill and thus, is not deserving of the same reward?

WQ and Snoreghast are spammable fast content though. So you could in theory get fully decked out in 252 gear in a day. I'd say a weekly questline from your covenant for a piece of mythic raid gear would be fine though.

[Lurker1]

I’ll say it again. Thank you for removing titanforging.

Ill say it hopefully forges come back next expansion shadowland blows.

[arkanon]

+1 me to buddy me too - and 90 % of players who left game .

Why would you pretend to know something like that? Saying you miss it is fine, claiming to know why every single person left the game is either a very poor attempt at trolling, or just extremely dishonest.

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WQ and Snoreghast are spammable fast content though. So you could in theory get fully decked out in 252 gear in a day. I'd say a weekly questline from your covenant for a piece of mythic raid gear would be fine though.

But if the item was guaranteed, it would be faster in many cases than raiding mythic - so the new meta for mythic raiders would be "farm WQ to get 1 piece per week". It would be ok to have a system like that right before the end of a tier, for the weeks leading up to patch day, but never earlier than that. Also, it would basically kill normal and heroic raiding, which seem to be on their last legs already.

[Ehrenpanzer]

Why would you pretend to know something like that? Saying you miss it is fine, claiming to know why every single person left the game is either a very poor attempt at trolling, or just extremely dishonest.

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But if the item was guaranteed, it would be faster in many cases than raiding mythic - so the new meta for mythic raiders would be "farm WQ to get 1 piece per week". It would be ok to have a system like that right before the end of a tier, for the weeks leading up to patch day, but never earlier than that. Also, it would basically kill normal and heroic raiding, which seem to be on their last legs already.

Raiding generally gives more then 1 piece a week, especially with the vault. We also shouldnt be hyper focused on balancing the entire game around 1% of the playerbase. If they want to kill themselves doing WQ or whatever questline it is on day 1 then thats their problem, let everyone else play at their own pace and get a small reward every week. At that pace, assuming the system gave it out in determined slots, it would still take a player almost 4 months to get full geared, thats not bad.

[Very rare pepe]

Then it should just be on non-Mythic stuff. Mythic tier gear could be the cap. Doing WQ and heroic dungeons are dead content essentially without TF or some sort of Valor Point system with a vendor that updates their wares every patch.

Why not say ' I want the valor point system back or the badge of justice system back' why jump to 'Bring TF back'?

You say you want TF back but also mention a superior, more liked system straight after? Bit weird to me.
TF sucks unless you get off on the dopamine hit and prefer gambling in an MMO over actual steady character progression. Each to their own on that one I guess.

The systems we had before with badges were better but I feel too many are now hooked on those short term rushes of dopamine

[Bee76]

Titanforging was garbage. Lets add RNG on top of the RNG of already getting the piece of loot you want.

No, there was NEVER any need for a TF piece of gear. Wannabe pros considered it "mandatory". The real pros cleared the relevant content in inferior gear without any problems. Tf was always a bonus, a useful mechanic to make every single activity in the game rewarding.
I miss TF, the actual raidloot system, and the great vault option farming is the real garbage.

[Argorwal]

Raiding generally gives more then 1 piece a week, especially with the vault. We also shouldnt be hyper focused on balancing the entire game around 1% of the playerbase. If they want to kill themselves doing WQ or whatever questline it is on day 1 then thats their problem, let everyone else play at their own pace and get a small reward every week. At that pace, assuming the system gave it out in determined slots, it would still take a player almost 4 months to get full geared, thats not bad.

Isn’t this basically how Korthia gearing works?

It’s a slow paced world content for eventual 233 gear the playerbase has crucified as being a forced grind because they need to hit rank 6 ASAP for a socket in a few slots?

[Adamas102]

How many times does it have to be proved it doesn’t quite work that way?

We just had 2 years of classic with world buffs and “just don’t get them” comments that were asinine.

Doesn't work what way? I guarantee you there were plenty of raiding guilds that didn't require world buffs.

It's not. People respond to incentives, and making easy gear drop from world content is an incentive that won't be ignored. Like, let's say you play on a basketball team where you are allowed to wear platform shoes if you first do like, a ballet dance. Yes, some people might not do ballet, but those who do will start dominating games, and it basically becomes, do ballet, or drop down to a lower tier of play.

Listen, raiders and world players are never going to agree on this. There's no argument that will convince a non raider that it's good that he doesn't get that gear, and there's no argument that will convince a raider who doesn't like world content that good gear should drop from it. Ah well.

That's a really odd analogy. If you're talking about professional sport then you're also talking about a job, in which case it's perfectly reasonable to expect people to do things they don't find particularly fun in order to make a living. If you're NOT talking about professional basketball, then there isn't a lower tier of play. It's all amateur, and I'm sure you'd be able to find plenty of pickup games with people who also aren't willing to do all the un-fun stuff like training, practicing, dieting, ballet, etc. that is expected from professional sports.

No one in this thread plays WoW for a living, so the only real incentive is fun and entertainment. If you find that raiding then great, if you find that doing WQ's then great, if you find that PVPing then great. There's no good argument against making all aspects of the game equally fun and rewarding. The only people who really push back are those who think it's reasonable for games to make you do things that aren't fun and have grown resentful of other people being rewarded for less effort IN A VIDEO GAME.

[Coniferous]

Doesn't work what way? I guarantee you there were plenty of raiding guilds that didn't require world buffs.



That's a really odd analogy. If you're talking about professional sport then you're also talking about a job, in which case it's perfectly reasonable to expect people to do things they don't find particularly fun in order to make a living. If you're NOT talking about professional basketball, then there isn't a lower tier of play. It's all amateur, and I'm sure you'd be able to find plenty of pickup games with people who also aren't willing to do all the un-fun stuff like training, practicing, dieting, ballet, etc. that is expected from professional sports.

No one in this thread plays WoW for a living, so the only real incentive is fun and entertainment. If you find that raiding then great, if you find that doing WQ's then great, if you find that PVPing then great. There's no good argument against making all aspects of the game equally fun and rewarding. The only people who really push back are those who think it's reasonable for games to make you do things that aren't fun and have grown resentful of other people being rewarded for less effort IN A VIDEO GAME.

You're just trying to turn your opinion into a logical argument, and it immediately fails when other people don't share your perspective. It's an opinion, it's not some sort of math proof. The main thing I disagree with is, amateur or professional, a lot of people like to do things well (this seems obvious?). And if doing it well means doing a bit extra that you find really annoying, it's annoying.

[cuafpr]

Unless you can provide a logical/rational view on why people who strictly do solo content NEED better gear, then you're wasting everyones time. It's common sense that better gear is a necessity in raiding because bosses have enrage timers and better gear will increase the ceiling on performance so that raids can beat enrage timers. Just what solo content demands 252 ilvl gear?

b.c. its the primary way of increasing player power which is the main point in most RPGs

[Niwes]

No, keep supporting those tokens purchases.

Blizzard says thank you and come again.

yeah, this. sadly.