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  1. #1

    I exploited the game and had a far better experience for it.

    I won't really go into what I did but rather the net results as I believe it highlights the major issue with wow currently. I heard of a way to bypass the largest time gate involved with preparing a new character for end game content. In effect it makes it so the only thing you need to concern yourself with is gearing up rather then wasting time with the games alternative power systems (barring shards of domination).

    The result has been me finally having an alt I can enjoy playing and am rapidly progressing with in content I enjoy... It leads to me ask the question. If these grind systems get in the way of a players enjoyment why are they part of the game at all? I know what I did isn't intended and am sure it will be hotfixed soon so I have to consider doing it again as I want one more alt but it feels silly that I have to look for ways to break the game to get the experience I want.

  2. #2
    "Fun detected ! Deploy the time gates"
    -Blizzard Entertaiment

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Log Cabin View Post
    If these grind systems get in the way of a players enjoyment why are they part of the game at all?
    Blizzard doesn't care about player enjoyment. They care about player investment.

    If a needless grind / timegate will cause you to invest more time into the game, they'll put it in regardless of how "enjoyable" it actually is


  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Log Cabin View Post
    I won't really go into what I did but rather the net results as I believe it highlights the major issue with wow currently. I heard of a way to bypass the largest time gate involved with preparing a new character for end game content. In effect it makes it so the only thing you need to concern yourself with is gearing up rather then wasting time with the games alternative power systems (barring shards of domination).

    The result has been me finally having an alt I can enjoy playing and am rapidly progressing with in content I enjoy... It leads to me ask the question. If these grind systems get in the way of a players enjoyment why are they part of the game at all? I know what I did isn't intended and am sure it will be hotfixed soon so I have to consider doing it again as I want one more alt but it feels silly that I have to look for ways to break the game to get the experience I want.
    I have to ask are you new to WoW?
    Blizzard has been using a system that tries to force players to stay subbed for long periods, it is all about the $$$$, they have been doing this for a very long time now and do not care about your enjoyment.

  5. #5
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    I have to ask are you new to WoW?
    Blizzard has been using a system that tries to force players to stay subbed for long periods, it is all about the $$$$, they have been doing this for a very long time now and do not care about your enjoyment.
    This. Been like this since the game released.
    Hi

  6. #6
    I miss the days when the only timegate was the amount of time you were willing to invest.

  7. #7
    I'm going to assume you're just talking about Korthia research, since that's literally the only thing you can grind at this point. Conduit upgrades are probably the least impactful of the dreaded Borrowed Power™ crap people have taken to complaining about in recent expansions. So I'd really be interested to hear exactly how much having an extra x% of y proc of z ability has meaningfully impacted your fun.

  8. #8
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Log Cabin View Post
    I won't really go into what I did but rather the net results as I believe it highlights the major issue with wow currently. I heard of a way to bypass the largest time gate involved with preparing a new character for end game content. In effect it makes it so the only thing you need to concern yourself with is gearing up rather then wasting time with the games alternative power systems (barring shards of domination).

    The result has been me finally having an alt I can enjoy playing and am rapidly progressing with in content I enjoy... It leads to me ask the question. If these grind systems get in the way of a players enjoyment why are they part of the game at all? I know what I did isn't intended and am sure it will be hotfixed soon so I have to consider doing it again as I want one more alt but it feels silly that I have to look for ways to break the game to get the experience I want.
    Fast forward 1 month after bypassing tons of content...

    I'm bored, and there just isn't anything to do.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    I'm going to assume you're just talking about Korthia research, since that's literally the only thing you can grind at this point. Conduit upgrades are probably the least impactful of the dreaded Borrowed Power™ crap people have taken to complaining about in recent expansions. So I'd really be interested to hear exactly how much having an extra x% of y proc of z ability has meaningfully impacted your fun.
    I play at the high end. It is simply the only content I find enjoyable. It allowed me to almost immediately get past the biggest hurdles to playing ranked at higher level 1800ish (gear is my cap atm) and heroic raiding alongside mythic plus.

  10. #10
    They've always had these and it's to keep people paying longer.

    I do think they've been much less disguised in the last 4 expansions, more and more progressively. I think it's because the people who still stay subbed now are mostly probably addicts, people who are just used to it/feel obligated to stay subbed, and probably a few people who don't even know they're paying for a sub. Oh, and I'm sure there's people who genuinely love this sort of thing somewhere.

    This is why MMOs are in such dire straits though IMO. Why pay a $15 a month sub when you can play other, better playing games that don't have any baggage or any subs or any real restrictions at all while still getting that dopamine hit of leveling and such (most every game has them now!)

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Fast forward 1 month after bypassing tons of content...

    I'm bored, and there just isn't anything to do.
    I don't get this mentality. If this was the case, then the person would still have been bored a month after they finished the grind they 'skipped', but they would have also been bored during that grind.
    RETH

  12. #12
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    I have to ask are you new to WoW?
    Blizzard has been using a system that tries to force players to stay subbed for long periods, it is all about the $$$$, they have been doing this for a very long time now and do not care about your enjoyment.
    Pretty much. There is nothing new. Very common for MMO games to apply things that demand time.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    I miss the days when the only timegate was the amount of time you were willing to invest.
    Yeah pretty much.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    I miss the days when the only timegate was the amount of time you were willing to invest.
    Was that some version of the game without raid lockouts or conquest caps or weekly honor rankings or exponential AP soft caps?

    Because end game progression has always put in caps to keep people who can play 24/7 somewhat leashed to those who can only play a handful of hours a week.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    I have to ask are you new to WoW?
    Blizzard has been using a system that tries to force players to stay subbed for long periods, it is all about the $$$$, they have been doing this for a very long time now and do not care about your enjoyment.
    I wonder if they have any actual research that shows how many people they've lost due to pushing too hard on this front.

    In the past, the way they kept players engaged was by releasing new content continually at intervals such that it was pointless for players to cancel their subs. Then whatever the fuck WOD was happened, tanking, THEN they went hard into whatever fucking garbage design they have now with legion and beyond.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Pretty much. There is nothing new. Very common for MMO games to apply things that demand time.
    Worst aspect of MMOs IMO and probably why they fail so often. Make content that people WANT to run 100 times and you'll solve the problem. LoL has no issue with getting players to repeat the same thing for hours on end.

    Yes yes... "but it's a PVP game!"

    I still remain convinced that there is some form of PVE content equivalent that just hasn't been pioneered yet.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Pretty much. There is nothing new. Very common for MMO games to apply things that demand time.

    We all know that and I dont believe anyone has a problem with time spent in the game with.. What we have a problem with is what were DOING with that time spent in the game.

    Blizzard has created a casual game with hardcore player incentives. It doesnt make sense. Either your game is casual and you want people to casually play it, or your game is hardcore and you want people to go ham in it. You cant have both without pissing one or the other off. At least not if one or the other effects the other.
    Last edited by Recovery; 2021-11-08 at 05:30 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    This. Been like this since the game released.
    Stop lying. This game used to encourage alts and you could directly go to the content you wanted to do without having to micromanage a dozen different systems. This only changed with Legion.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Landrisser View Post
    Stop lying. This game used to encourage alts and you could directly go to the content you wanted to do without having to micromanage a dozen different systems. This only changed with Legion.
    100%. I logged onto my alts last night, but quickly I realised theres just to much hassle to go through anyway, despite changes in 9.1.5. Back in the day I would level classes up after I felt done with my main, and play them alot. It was like doing new content, except it was just with a different class. Both in BfA & SL I have no idea how the other classes really play at max level, cant be bothered.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    Fast forward 1 month after bypassing tons of content...

    I'm bored, and there just isn't anything to do.
    So you believe the game is in such a bad state, there is only 1 month of content before someone gets bored?

    See the problem with your "logic" is that a player who played through the grind would STILL be bored 1 month after completing the grind. The difference is, they hated the grind as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    See the problem with your "logic" is that a player who played through the grind would STILL be bored 1 month after completing the grind. The difference is, they hated the grind as well.
    That's part of the core problem.

    Somehow we've ended up in a spot where "getting to X" is supposed to make up a ton of content, whereas "being at X" is tacitly assumed to be short-lived and easy to oversatiate on. That may have made sense at some point in time, but to me it's a bit of an outmoded concept if I'm being quite honest.

    I'm over the "dangling carrot" reward loop where my motivation is some concrete, obtainable goal - and where there is an understanding of acceptance that the process of GETTING to that goal, while not entirely unsatisfactory, is by design worse/less interesting/less fun and works ONLY because there is a goal. Why do we have to design games that way? Is that really the ONLY way to do things?

    Don't get me wrong - I am 100% cognizant of the fact that it's very hard to create repeatable content that is fun just for doing it rather than for an objective. But isn't that what we pay designers for, to come up with that kind of content? Is it really that impossible to make content that isn't either sucked dry immediately or propped up by reward loops?

    I'd love to see some innovation in this area. I don't know how precisely to fix things, but I'm not a game designer. I'm a customer (and a critic). To paraphrase Neil Gaiman, customers are nearly always right when they don't like something, but they're nearly always wrong when they think they know how to fix it. But it seems to me that just assuming "it can't be done" is a cop-out, and that there must be ways of rethinking the paradigm that if not completely overturn things then at least rearrange them in ways that address this problem.

    Maybe it IS time to get rid of levels, for example. Maybe progression needs to be done in a completely different way. Maybe story and lore need to be integrated at the base level. Maybe multiple progression paths need to run concurrently. I don't know what'll work. I just know that what we have clearly isn't working, or at the very least, isn't working well enough.

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