Did we even beat Sylvanas in the raid?

[Ethas]

Denathrius lost because Renathal was there with an artifact holding the essence of the Revendreth itself. It was said somewhere that the realms themselves are more important than the Eternal Ones who govern them.

He also split his powers over medallions to let his creations do his job because he was too lazy.

[sighy]

Mechanically? Yes. You managed to survive until the RP event.

Storywise? No, we failed completely and that was kind of the point. (presumably)

The quality of this story overall really depends on how they follow it up, as i don't believe that us getting beat is necessarily a bad idea. In fact my all time favourite boss fight includes the death of the whole raid, when Arthas is finally convinced of our merit being sufficient to lead his army. (Tirion's "Final Blessing" aside anyway... since it came completely out of left field and was in no way final)


Regarding the comparison to Denathrius it's entirely different fights, with entirely different stakes and objectives. But if you really wanna take the mental gym then Sylvanas was pumped as hell by a 4 Sigil Zovaal, where we know that but one of the Sigils is powerful enough to fully restore the Primus, from a broken down husk into the Primus again and after the spike tossing phase our goals shifted from "Hurr durr Sylvanas" to a mad dash for Oribos/the Arbiter.

[ohwell]

ahhh but you see, theres a difference between sylvanas and dudes like garrosh, gul'dan, or denathrius (whos an eternal one, and therefore 10x as powerful as sylvanas):
sylvanas is a hot woman, who sells tons of merch. therefore its logical shes the single character who will never look roughed up/beaten after her fight.


actually, we can. that whole "soul split" crap is no excuse, not even in-universe. neither half of uther turned into a genocidal maniac. shes still responsible for her choices.

Except she knows what we don't and what she knows is most certainly an excuse for why(more than likely that life and death don't really matter as they just feed into each other in the cycle).

Also for about the millionth time, she did not attempt nor accomplish genocide.

- - - Updated - - -

Denathrius lost because Renathal was there with an artifact holding the essence of the Revendreth itself. It was said somewhere that the realms themselves are more important than the Eternal Ones who govern them.

He also split his powers over medallions to let his creations do his job because he was too lazy.

If you're talking about the crown, that wasn't made until after his defeat. Otherwise I have no idea what artifact you're talking about. Even in the forging story it mentions he was defeated. Most of the campaigns quests took place after Denathrius was defeated similarly to how the Night Fae questline takes place after the events of DOS. Also another clear indicator is that Kael is there before you get the amulets.

So once again what artifact are we speaking of? Renathal had none that I can recall. Now sure the part about how Denny split his power into the amulets is true, but the others still had theirs when we killed him.

[Ersula]

Yes we did? Remornia had to absorb his soul in order to save him. He was at 0% HP and quite defeated. He didn't die but he was decisively beaten by the players.

People selectively remembering that the iconic trait of dreadlords is that they can't die.

On a related note people are giving me a hard time about suggesting that having shadowlands allied races would be a huge problem lorewise when it comes to the consequences of death

[Aucald]

People selectively remembering that the iconic trait of dreadlords is that they can't die.

Demonic Dreadlords couldn't die unless killed in the Twisting Nether, the same as other Legion demons - we don't know if *all* Dreadlords are demonically corrupted, so it's possible some of them could die normally.

[Ersula]

Demonic Dreadlords couldn't die unless killed in the Twisting Nether, the same as other Legion demons - we don't know if *all* Dreadlords are demonically corrupted, so it's possible some of them could die normally.

Who do you think gave Sargeras the secret to transcending death? *laughs in mal'ganis*

[Houle]

Who do you think gave Sargeras the secret to transcending death? *laughs in mal'ganis*

nobody "gave sargeras the ability to transcend death"
ALL demons (not just since the legion was formed) naturally just respawn in the nether, unless they are slain precisely there. its a core part of being a demon, and the very reason sargeras started to imprison them in mardum, back his good ol days.
*laughs in every demon race ever*

[Aucald]

Who do you think gave Sargeras the secret to transcending death? *laughs in mal'ganis*

They (demons) don't really transcend death - they just go to the Nether when killed in any other realm. If killed in the Nether, then they die permanently (or at least normally).

[h8ryan]

Being undead doesnt necessarily turn you into a genocial maniac either. Proven by all the forsaken in BtS, who tried to lovingly reunite with their families, until Sylvanas ordered to kill them all.
Theres nothing to twist or turn here: nothing in the lore gives any reason to suddenly forgive Sylvanas anything.

Bud, Frostmourne is what split the soul in two, not the concept of being resurrected, did you not play through the Uther storyline at all?

Uther went evil in the afterlife because of frostmourne ripping his soul in 2, Sylvannas did the same thing in life because she was resurrected as an undead, I'm sure if that never happened she would be tripping out in Ardenweald or something

I'm not saying it's a decent arc but it does hold water

[Houle]

Bud, Frostmourne is what split the soul in two, not the concept of being resurrected, did you not play through the Uther storyline at all?

Uther went evil in the afterlife because of frostmourne ripping his soul in 2, Sylvannas did the same thing in life because she was resurrected as an undead, I'm sure if that never happened she would be tripping out in Ardenweald or something

I'm not saying it's a decent arc but it does hold water

Bud, did you read my post before that one? No, you obviously didnt. The fact that Frostmourne split her soul was never in question.
And Uther literally didnt turn evil. He was manipulated into working with the wrong side, and after realizing it, he just stopped, even without being reunited with his other half. Did you not play it lol?

[Aucald]

Bud, did you read my post before that one? No, you obviously didnt. The fact that Frostmourne split her soul was never in question.
And Uther literally didnt turn evil. He was manipulated into working with the wrong side, and after realizing it, he just stopped, even without being reunited with his other half. Did you not play it lol?

Uther was able to be manipulated because he was both in considerable pain and emotional trauma due to the nature of the wound resulting from his death due to a mourneblade (Frostmourne). I won't say he "turned evil," but he was definitely not himself, and it wasn't until he confronted both the source of his pain and the results of his actions did he overcome that darkening influence on his being. Devos appealed to the part of him that wanted vengeance and hated Arthas for what had been done to him - the hatred, a product of the pain and perhaps the mourneblade itself were and are still a part of Uther that he struggles with.

[Ersula]

They (demons) don't really transcend death - they just go to the Nether when killed in any other realm. If killed in the Nether, then they die permanently (or at least normally).

Except now we know Dreadlords are not demons. And I was insinuating it would make a lot of sense if the secret to transcend death was given to demonkind by creatures FROM the realm of DEATH

[Aucald]

Except now we know Dreadlords are not demons. And I was insinuating it would make a lot of sense if the secret to transcend death was given to demonkind by creatures FROM the realm of DEATH

Demons can be both born and made, and it would seem that at least the Dreadlords serving the Legion made the transition into true demonhood. That would also make sense, but there's no real canon source of it, and the nature of demons has long since been established. So unless it gets retconned in the future, the ability of demons to reincarnate in the Nether doesn't stem from the Nathrezim or the Shadowlands.

[Jastall]

People selectively remembering that the iconic trait of dreadlords is that they can't die.

On a related note people are giving me a hard time about suggesting that having shadowlands allied races would be a huge problem lorewise when it comes to the consequences of death

Denathrius is not a Dreadlord in the first place, and second that's a general Demonic trait, not one unique to the Nathrezim.

And either way all that is pure semantics. No one said anything about killing Denathrius, I said we defeated him, that's what you denied.

[Ersula]

Demons can be both born and made, and it would seem that at least the Dreadlords serving the Legion made the transition into true demonhood. That would also make sense, but there's no real canon source of it, and the nature of demons has long since been established. So unless it gets retconned in the future, the ability of demons to reincarnate in the Nether doesn't stem from the Nathrezim or the Shadowlands.

The fact that they're creatures FROM THE REALM OF DEATH who are now known to GO BETWEEN LIFE & DEATH, and CREATED BY A RULER OF AN AFTERLIFE, is supposedly UNRELATED to the Shadowlands. Sure. Okay. I'm sure they're the only creatures from the shadowlands who actually die when they're killed.

Lore people have this incredible inability to add 2 & 2 together.

[Aucald]

The fact that they're creatures FROM THE REALM OF DEATH who are now known to GO BETWEEN LIFE & DEATH, and CREATED BY A RULER OF AN AFTERLIFE, is supposedly UNRELATED to the Shadowlands. Sure. Okay. I'm sure they're the only creatures from the shadowlands who actually die when they're killed.

Lore people have this incredible inability to add 2 & 2 together.

You're more asking me to add 2 and Y together and agree they amount to a sum X you've also arbitrarily decided - that's not how either logic or narrative work, though. We already know that native denizens who die in the Shadowlands die for real, so why would the non-demonic Dreadlords be mysteriously exempt from this, when even greater beings are not? Why would the Dreadlords be effectively invulnerable when even Sire Denathrius isn't?

[Kantoro]

snip

Sylvanas being forced down our throats and being near-or-at the center of the main story for 3 expansions has soured a lot of people to this story. Her being defeated instead of outright killed is doubly worse since A.) the aforementioned sour feeling players have towards the game (and story/lore) because of her, and B.) wanting to see her dead her story be done... instead we're gonna get more of her.

This.

Literally one of the reasons I am not subbed and won't be any time soon, so tired of this shit boss and shit story only to see the inevitable shit redemption arc. I just want Sylvanas to go away, I want her to die horribly. I've literally come to hate hate anything involved with her.