Blood elves and Zin'Azshari

[Rhlor]

Generally speaking it's the Blelves's grandparents and great grandparents so that stuff is still pretty fresh, in the social memory and the Thalassian distaste towards Kaldorei seems generally centered on the Malfurion and Tyrande types(Those who associate with them by extension ofc). Something supported by how they quickly befriended the Nightborne, who themselves had a very similar trajectory to the Thalassian one. Some could even argue that even the Naga have closer to the other Highborne splinter groups than modern Kaldorei, who sought to distance themselves from it under the penality of death, for the past 10 000ish years, until Malf said "Wait, this is retarded! Tyrande stop it!"

Lorash was of the first generation of High Elves born in the Eastern kingdoms and his mother died in the scourge invasion I wouldn't be surprised even if there is some blood elf that was originally a kaldorei still alive

[Mace]

I concede.

It states that Quel'Thalas was set up to rival that of the kaldorei empire, but not based on it, to the extent of it looking the same.

However, the way of life for the High Elves does mirror that of the Highborne, in terms of using a fount of power for arcane purposes and for that fount to stabilize everything about their way of life. It's why they suffered greatly when the Sunwell had to be destroyed, whereas the Night Elves did not suffer, because they were not addicted to the second Well of Eternity nor Nordrassil's power.

How these two groups are similar and different is very telling.

People forget they are elves. Loving nature and magic is not something hairs are split on. They all do, just like they are all tall, beautiful and long eared. Heights may vary, war type inclination, degree of focus or love etc but those things are similar.

When it comes to magical knowledge, that isn’t culturally influenced. Knowledge is knowledge. The high elves arcane knowledge is all night elven based and doesn’t change because they become high elves. The extent of knowlwedge can vary as disaster causes people to lose a lot - most of the Kaldorei magical knowledge was lost to the Hyjal survivors including those who became high elves, but we know the Shen’dralar in Eldre’thalas and the Nightborne didn’t.

The magical principals will be the same because that is knowledge, not culture. It would be the same amongst night elves, high elves , humans and anyone who learns arcane magic based on the knowledge the night elves mastered. This knowledge is elven regardless of what type of elf. And it is this knowledge that human magic is based on.

But again, as I say - the only night elves (those who call/ed themselves "night elves", not Nightborne) who the Blood Elves truly like are the Highborne, who come from Zin-Azshari, who also stepped away from Queen Azshara. Zin-Azshari is relative - hell, the Highborne could have been Shen'dralar Highborne Exiles and the Blood Elves would hold them in high regard, but it's only the Highborne who established Quel'Thalas. They just happen to come from Zin-Azshari. (Again, we're not interested in the first night elves, as none of them are documented to be alive either. We only know of those who were born during Azshara's reign, which was over a thousand years.)

I think you are right that the blood elves would hold the shen’dralar in high regard. Shen’dralar we’re teaching blood elves reforging for a while. This to me indicated that the intention was to have some relations. Which made sense.


But Warcraft game doesn’t like showing alliance and horde getting along. Eventually the NPCs changed to blood elves after a couple of years. Presumably the blood elves had now learnt or maybe those highborne turned into high elves ������������.

However the bit I think you are wrong is them liking the other Azshara loyal Zin’Azshari highborne who chose to aid the Queen blindly or not. The high elves and Hyjal elves dissociated themselves form the Azshara corrupted lot. Highborne amongst the Nightborne are proud of their Kaldorei heritage and highborne roots viewing themselves as prt of the stock that resisted the Legion and are noble.

High elves are proud of their highborne ancestors who fought the Legion. Not those who succumbed. The Sunstriders are all the Zin’Azsharo highborne that rejected Azshara like the rest who did in Farondale, Dire Maul, Suramar and Menaar.

Don’t forget there were highborne amongst the Darnassians who stayed

The Sunfury, briefly respected their ancestral kin from Nazjatar, during the campaigns from Lordaeron and the Alliance, to joining the Illidari.

Yes. That made sense to me given what direction they took in the end.

[sighy]

I don't think relations between the Sin'dorei and Kaldorei improved, especially after Tyrande allowed the Shen'dralar to return.

The Sin'dorei rightfully saw it as hypocritical as the kaldorei were previously, very anti-arcane magical sorcery. Hell, not even the Quel'dorei and Kaldorei got along all that well, until the middle of Wrath and start of Cata when a High Elf Ranger joined the Sentinels and a Night Elf Huntress joined the Silver Covenant (and another briefly joined the Kirin Tor Offensive, which was partly, High Elf-led.)

Shen'dalar are the biggest case of Stockholm syndrome, in WoW. They were hunted and ostracised for 10 000 years, then M&T told them that they will no longer try to kill them so they should come back. First thing that happens after they come is that Maiev goes on a killing spree.... yeah.


That said it'd be nice if Azshara got to keep or retake Zin'azshari, as a sort of magical atlantis situation. Maybe even trying to re-establish some links with the living Highborne remnants. Not too unlike Lady Vashj all the way back in WC3.

[Mace]

Shen'dalar are the biggest case of Stockholm syndrome, in WoW. They were hunted and ostracised for 10 000 years, then M&T told them that they will no longer try to kill them so they should come back. First thing that happens after they come is that Maiev goes on a killing spree.... yeah.

3.

It’s more nuanced than that. Some key information and context is missing here I believe.

The Shen’dralar were hidden.

Feralas classic quests tell you night elves in the north hadn’t been to those parts of Feralas in 10,000 years (implying they sailed to Silithus or marched via the barrens route in the War of the Shifting Sands. The Shen’dralar were aware of their kin, but not the other way around. I don’t think they were interested in trying to persuade them. Not when 3 dragonflights and the wild gods agreed with the northern group’s decision. Besides they were cosy and covered. Just wanted to get on with magic and were quite content to merely spy on the world. Not get involved. Hence the term isolation.

Also never forget there were many highborne too with the survivors who had join the Ravencrest led resistance.

Those who left Suramar - incl Tyrande, Malfurion, Illidan and the Shadowsong siblings may have been the bulk of the Hyjal survivors but others like the Sunstriders from Zin’Azshari - the only Zin’Azshari highborne to rebel against the queen, were with them as well as all the Moonguard who didn’t stay back to protect Suramar and other highborne from the realm.

In fact many of these are the ones who agreed for magic to be banned, Sunstriders included. Because it was the only way they knew how to prevent the Legion. Some of these became druids. It’s just that 3,000 years later Darth’Remar’s group felt it was time to lift the ban and Malfurion and the druids (now an established thing at this time - remember there were no druids at the sundering. Night elves were either mages or priests mainly) disagreed.

When towing the line, no highborne or former highborne was ostracised , though ire was against those who later rebelled and got exiled opening the wound again.

It was after that incident that highborne were banned, in addition to the ban on arcane practice in the north.

But Eldre’thalas was forgotten and thought in ruin, and the Hyjal group were in isolation in Ashenvale through to Hyjal. Only druids working in stone talon mountain, part of the Ashenvale border ever ventured that far south.

[Tanaria]

However the bit I think you are wrong is them liking the other Azshara loyal Zin’Azshari highborne who chose to aid the Queen blindly or not.

I've stated and meant the Highborne who stepped away from the queen, them being, the Sin'dorei ancestors.

Think you might reading too much into what I've said.

- - - Updated - - -

It’s more nuanced than that. Your omitting some key information and context I believe.

The Shen’dralar were hidden.

Feralas classic quests tell you night elves in the north hadn’t been to those parts of Feralasnin 10,000 years (implying they sailed to Silithus or marched via the barrens route in the War of the Shifting Sands.

Also never forget there were many highborne too with the survivors who had join the Ravencrest led resistance.

Those who left Suramar - incl Tyrande, Malfurion, Illidan and the Shadowsong siblings may have been the bulk of the Hyjal survivors but others like the Sunstriders from Zin’Azshari - the only Zin’Azshari highborne to rebel against the queen, were with them as well as all the Moonguard who didn’t stay back to protect Suramar and other highborne from the realm.

In fact many of these are the ones who agreed for magic to be banned, Sunstriders included. Because it was the only way they knew how to prevent the Legion. Some of these became druids. It’s just that 3,000 years later Darth’Remar’s group felt it was time to lift the ban and Malfurion and the druids (now an established thing at this time - remember there were no druids at the sundering. Night elves were either mages or priests mainly) disagreed.

When towing the line, no highborne or former highborne was ostracised , though ire was against those who later rebelled and got exiled opening the wound again.

It was after that incident that highborne were banned, in addition to the ban on arcane practice in the north.

But Eldre’thalas was forgotten and thought in ruin, and the Hyjal group were in isolation in Ashenvale through to Hyjal. Only druids working in stone talon mountain, part of the Ashenvale border ever ventured that far south.

Actually, members of the Shen'dralar were prepared to leave with Dath'Remar, as per Sensiria and Verinias, where the latter was going to leave Kalimdor with Dath'Remar, believing the Shen'dralar had, for all intensive purposes, gone "too far." (from my PoV, the Shen'dralar were going insane, which was supported by Sensiria turning into a Succubi.)

So, I'd say that Dath'Remar would have known about the Shen'dralar, which makes sense considering he was a high-ranked member of Azshara's court (as were many of the first Quel'Thalas inhabitants.)
It stands to reason why they were able to hold off the trolls for so long, plus create Ban'dinoriel which even overwhelmed the corrupted dragons and Orc Warlocks during the Second War.

[sighy]

It’s more nuanced than that. Some key information and context is missing here I believe.

The Shen’dralar were hidden.

Feralas classic quests tell you night elves in the north hadn’t been to those parts of Feralas in 10,000 years (implying they sailed to Silithus or marched via the barrens route in the War of the Shifting Sands. The Shen’dralar were aware of their kin, but not the other way around. I don’t think they were interested in trying to persuade them. Not when 3 dragonflights and the wild gods agreed with the northern group’s decision. Besides they were cosy and covered. Just wanted to get on with magic and were quite content to merely spy on the world. Not get involved. Hence the term isolation.

Also never forget there were many highborne too with the survivors who had join the Ravencrest led resistance.

Those who left Suramar - incl Tyrande, Malfurion, Illidan and the Shadowsong siblings may have been the bulk of the Hyjal survivors but others like the Sunstriders from Zin’Azshari - the only Zin’Azshari highborne to rebel against the queen, were with them as well as all the Moonguard who didn’t stay back to protect Suramar and other highborne from the realm.

In fact many of these are the ones who agreed for magic to be banned, Sunstriders included. Because it was the only way they knew how to prevent the Legion. Some of these became druids. It’s just that 3,000 years later Darth’Remar’s group felt it was time to lift the ban and Malfurion and the druids (now an established thing at this time - remember there were no druids at the sundering. Night elves were either mages or priests mainly) disagreed.

When towing the line, no highborne or former highborne was ostracised , though ire was against those who later rebelled and got exiled opening the wound again.

It was after that incident that highborne were banned, in addition to the ban on arcane practice in the north.

But Eldre’thalas was forgotten and thought in ruin, and the Hyjal group were in isolation in Ashenvale through to Hyjal. Only druids working in stone talon mountain, part of the Ashenvale border ever ventured that far south.

Of course you can't encapsulate the whole comprehensive history of Elves, into a single small paragraph. Obviously.

The Highborne were a societal caste, which Malfurion and Tyrande had effectively abolished, at latest with the departure of Dath'remar and his followers, which was relatively peaceful, in the stop, leave or we will kill you kind of way. Had the Shen'dralar revealed themselves during the history that followed they likely would have been slaughtered by the northern ruindwellers.



To the point the Darnassians have departed the old pre WotA ways just as much as any of the other Elves, only in their own way and if anything have made by far the greatest effort to actively distance tehmselves from that ancient kingdom. As compared to the Thalassians and Shalassians, who have effectively been highly successful sister city states, in terms of their general progression post WoTA, with the differences between them being largely superficial based on their individual fonts of power. It's only very recently that the Darnassians have made literally any effort to rebuild any of the bridges their policies had burned and even then it's dodgy at best.

[Rhlor]

"We must put this misery behind us. We must enter a new chapter! And so I say to you that, as of this day, we are no longer high elves! In honor of the blood that was shed throughout this kingdom, in honor of the sacrifices of our brothers and sisters, our parents, and our children, in honor of Anasterian... as of this day we will take the name of our royal lineage! As of this day, we are sin'dorei! For Quel'Thalas! Hail to the sin'dorei!"
the name sindorei is also in honor of the highborne
that's why kaelthas says this in a story called blood of the highborne

[Evaddon]

Sin'dorei architecture came later, when they were orginally exiled they left with very little

[Mace]

Response to Tanaria -I've moved to the Night elf/borne Thread
It's possible he did, I remember looking at that quest a few times to try and determine.. the only thing I could conclude 100% was that the Shen'dralar were aware of the situation north, but didn't do anything about it. Which matches their profile and account later on.

It is possible Darth'Remar was aware of them, probably around the time of the exile, but unlikely.. however blizz could use the at slight as a reason why the blood elves later chose not to continue strengthening their ties with the shen'dralar (this is not lore, I'm just saying it's an opportunity to introduce lore that creates bad blood between Thalassians and Shen'dralar .

however for the continuity to work (without retcon and recast), , the druids would be unaware of the Shen'dralar. If Darth'remar is aware, it would be the Shen'dralar who reached out, although if they ever told that story, it could be Sunstriders doing their on reconnaissance and discovering Eldre'thalas survives and make up some in teresting story.

Another option is that the kaldorei in the north were aware of both, but no magical signature was coming out of Eldre'thalas or Quel'thalas so they never acted. REmember there is a Dream portal tree in Feralas and in Hinterlands not far from Quel'thalas - and WC3 lore tells us the druids monitored for magic - and we know the pylons in Eldre'thalas and the Ban'dinoriel in Quel'thalas were both 100% successful in hiding arcane signatures from the twisting nether. So there is a possibility that while he kaldorei nation wasn't aware, the druids were.. Remember they are two different organisation that did not collaborate. Two different focuses, druids were suppressing arcane signatures on Kalimdor possibly further magically, but it was the kaldorei nation led by the priesthood that were enforcing the ban on sentient life coming across the Ashenvale border and the ban on Highborne, not the druids. The druids in hinterlands would largely be focused on nature and the dream. It's worth bearing in mind that they may not have been looking or scouring the EK, the lore tells only Kalimdor was shrouded in mist by them and magically suppressed by the druids - not the night elf nation.

And for those who don't know (not you necessarily Tanaria), there is a difference if you know night elf lore. The druids are not limited to night elves, they include Cenarians, and the green dragon flight and wild gods they work with to ensure the balance of and restoration of nature. The night elf nation are the Kaldorei with their customs and culture that are now lead by the priesthood - these will have the star culture and all the other parts of the kaldorei that continued their customs that could be continued without city life or practice of arcane. They include the sentinels and watchers etc

There is a world tree in Darkshire too, but the night elves never caught the human magical activity either, which implies that they weren't monitoring for magic at all, focusing only on the dream there, and those places were rarely ever visited. We know the night elves as a nation were in isolation in the north of Kalimdor, so weren't frequenting the world, the druids (remember a different organisation) probably moved around a bit more but rarely - and the inaction against humans implies this, but isn't the only evidence.

1. in action against humans who's magic brought back the legion - one of the reasons the druids may not have spotted the activity of the humans was because the Coucnil of Tirisfal started by the high elves and humans were very effective in dealing with the threats before the druids could cotton on.

This coupled with the fact that the druids rarely ever went to these places, often land likely hibernating for thousands of years in the dream, matches.

2. Reports in the Tauren of Kalimdor, put night elves as legendary figures that were very rarely seen and at that several generations apart, which would mean perhaps an occasional night elf was glimpsed passing south, also meaning they rarely ventured south, and lore wise, only druids would likely be doing so, not kaldorei nation who were patrolling the regions from Hyjal to Ashenvale only druids, concerned with the global state of nature and suppressing arcane magic might make a trip further south.

3. Feralas quests tells us none of the kaldorei (although ti was referring to kaldorei nation, ) had really been to Feralas and looked around in 10k years. If a night elf druid had visited teh dream portal tree, the implication is they only carried out their business around that tree, but then the trees did not need a night elf druid to be involved, green dragons could have been the ones there for most of the time and they weren't concerned with monitoring for magic at all, just the work of the emerald dream, guarding the area of the trees only, not exploring what the other races or groups around were doing.

4. Legion quests also tell us the north Kalimdor group hadn't been to Val'Sharah the broken isles in 10,000 years -this is true for Malfurion and the northern druids.. meaning the dreamwalkers are a separate developed druidic group that Malfurion may have helped start in the few years after the sundering when some returned back there, but hadn't been since that period. Now the Wardens and watchers are a different organisation, as are the Moonguard.. these are likely all independent groups carrying out their vigil against the legion in their own ways, independent of each other.

Remember Malfurion did not rule or lead the night elves (nation), Tyrande did until Cataclysm, Malfruion is just greatly revered, and leads the druids which is not just night elves. The unseen path seems it's own organisation, as we know the Moonguard who survive on the island are.

Maiev returns to the broken isles presumably for the first time in nearly 10,000 years for the events in WC3.

I don't know when the warden vault was built, it could have been post WC3, or post sundering, with the Warden forces there maintaining their vigil and them communicating magically through scryer orbs like the ones used in the Ghostlands by the night elves



ALl this supports the lore that all the various night elf groups are in isolation, they are not restoring or networking or working as an empire, they seem largely unaware of each other and focusing on their respective goals and tasks, whether in Suramar, Eldre'thalas, Val'Sharah, broken isles, Northern Kalimdor, or the dream trees.

- - - Updated - - -

Response to Sighy -I've moved to the Night elf/borne Thread
Yes, and had not just night elves to contend with, but dragons and wild gods, because the accord of no-magic practice was made to prevent the Legion (i.e. world destruction) from happening, not because night elves gained some magic aversion (like some fans on here think) or were trying to not be addicted - (which is sad, people who think that night elf motivation for the ban on pain of death was because of some prejudicial magic casting hate or not to get addicted - just don't think at all, not only does the lore tell us why there was such a severe penalty, which utterly makes sense when most of the advanced /aware world (including dragons and wildgods )believe practice will bring back invading legions), the night elf is a highly intelligent and benevolent being by fundamental nature , that has arcane pre-disposition and nature love - such a being is not going invoke a penalty of death just to avoid addiction nor will they have some irrational prejudicial hate that would result in such a severe penalty (unless a bit crazy like Maiev was or corrupted like Azshara's Naga and the satyr get).. obviously there was a purpose to giving up something that was an integral part of how they lived their lives.. and they considered it worth it.

Sadly most fans just gloss over this - which is why they are shocked night elves use magic after warcraft 3, and can't understand why all the offensive spells of the Moon priests and half of those of the druids are arcane based - because they think the night elves are some magic hating group based on mis-information or not understanding the information given about them and why there is a ban on practice.

Most fans don't even get it's a ban on arcane magical practice, they think it's a ban on arcane magic, but totally forget that night elves are connected and protecting a huge arcane well on top of hyjal an d have used it to create many smaller arcane wells called moonwells, meaning they are completely suffused in the stuff, what they aren't doing is using the power to cast spells which is what draws the legion. They aren't banning arcane - you can't ban a primordial force, it's like saying we will ban energy. they only banned the use of the Well of Eternity for casting spells which is what their mage profession relied on entirely - because this was the only way to prevent the Legion from realising magic (which is what the night elves thought the legion wanted from Azeroth) and the only way the night elves believed the Legion could get to Azeroth, still existed on it. Remember the legion is banished when the well is imploded, the night elves feel that the Legion's prize is gone, removing the need for them to return (because they think it's the magic they're after), so without using magic, no one in the twisting nether would be able to sense magic is on Azeroth and if all practice is banned, no one would be tempted to try and summon the legion, and with the Well completely guarded, allowing no sentient being even into Ashenvale (the cut off line for approaching the Well) no one would have the means or know how to bring the Legion back - even if they were some who influenced by the satyr - which is what the kaldorei nation was often pre-occupied iwth until they won that war.


Response to Sighy -I've moved to the Night elf/borne Thread

I think the focus is wrong here.. they aren't tryign to actively distance themselves from the pre-usndeirn g kingdom... they are in this state because they won't use arcane magic in order to prevent the legion's return which is basically world destruction. THis is a far far far far greater reason forsuch a drastic change of lifestyle than "wanting to distnace themselves from the past" because their Queen got conceited.

• Think about it.. what was so bad about the past? the great arcane knowledge? No.. that's a good thing.
• THe great wonders and progress? no that's also good
• The great cities built by both ancient trees and Highborne? no that was also good
• The great cultivation of nature -which the lore tells us they also did in the pre-sundering era - no that was also good

.

So what exactly was bad about that era? Actually only getting addicted and the arrogance of the Highborne. Think !! You wouldn't mourn the loss of something so deeply if you didn't love it and weren't proud. Nor will you hate your good achievements either.

So what weren't they proud of? their hubris - the arrogance their kin (especially the druids who were once Highborne would be keenly aware of this). You may hate the Highborne for their role, but that is nothing compared to your hate for the Legion - problem is, in the minds of some fans I've noticed, they think night elves hate arcane magic and Highborne as their ultimate thing which makes no sense , when it's the Legion they hate the most and by far, then, in a self chastistiing way, hate how foolish they behaved (you know when a perosn who's pride has destroyed him reflects back and realises when he thought he was all that, it actually wasn't that important and he wasn't actually "all that".

But not being proud of your hubris and the folly of your Queen isn't the reason they live this way. The main reason is to prevent the legion returning. It is easier to fight addiction or stop magic for awhile to regain sanity, but not indefinitely. It's not distancing themselves from the pre-sundering civilization past, it's preventing the legion's return.

Did they want to distance themselves from the past? Not all of it, only the bit, towards the end, where they were conceited enough to allow the legion in. And the fault of that is borne most keenly by former Highborne (now druids or priests) or some highborne still around, but to a lesser extent others who were not arrogant.


WotA tells us most night elves were arrogant and had lost heir way a bit, due to what we now know is bad leadership from a Queen that had become addicted.

But the change in lifestyle is because they are banning magic to prevent the legion's return, not because they are distancing themselves from the pre-sundering civilization.. The only thing about that era night elves would hate is the arrogance and addiction they let themselves succumb to. Night elves aren't the only ones that hate that.. the Thalassian high elves, once night elves too themselves, hate that as much, even though eventually they got another type of addiction.. but no where near the problematic mind twisting one that corrupted Azshara.

The nightborne though addicted(out of necessity to survive) respect magic in a way they didn't around the time of the first invasion. They do continue to use arcane in abusive ways, but this is because they felt it necessary to survive. The druid valewalker, Farodin, makes it quite clear, that the goal is not elimination of magic (which he recognises made the elves, and is a part of them) but balance with magic. This is what the Nightborne need restored. And this is what his order the Valewalker (a combination of Highborne mages and early druids - i.e. night elf nature magic practitioners before the art became known as druidism, but who would late r have become druids when Malfurion advanced the art) were set up to solve.

Balance is embedded in the druid class to, which we know is made up of many former male Moonguard and Highborne, because of the important of it in preventing addiction and imbalances.. this has nothing to do with the ban on arcane practice by the well, the druid class is nota bout banning magic at all,.. an entire night elf race living in the north, 3 dragonflights and wild gods upheld that ban to prevent the legion returning, not to stop the night elves becoming addicted.. balance will stop addiction, you don't kill someone for practicing magic because you are afraid they will get addicted or you hate your past.

The point of the night elves was never to be an anti-magic group, the Long vigil ban is just a part of the story, not the reason for their existence. THeyw ere created to be a combination of magic wielding/loving dark elves and nature loving forest elves. In fact the best elements of both these. They were dark elves with a twist.. the twist being they weren't evil (like most DnD dark elves are) and they had a nature forest loving side.

With this in mind, it is wrong to assume the ban on arcane magic defines the existence and reason for the night elves. It doesn't, it simply informs the backdrop for the awesome story of WC3 and an interesting account for a different group of elves than the high elves we knew, but one that would be developed further down the line. Wc3 was a start for the night elves too in this modern era, not the end . It was the continuation of race, with a new beginning after another world changing event, not the definition of the group.

- - - Updated - - -

"We must put this misery behind us. We must enter a new chapter! And so I say to you that, as of this day, we are no longer high elves! In honor of the blood that was shed throughout this kingdom, in honor of the sacrifices of our brothers and sisters, our parents, and our children, in honor of Anasterian... as of this day we will take the name of our royal lineage! As of this day, we are sin'dorei! For Quel'Thalas! Hail to the sin'dorei!"
the name sindorei is also in honor of the highborne
that's why kaelthas says this in a story called blood of the highborne

It is indeed what he says.. but the name of our royal lineage he is referring to is Sin'dorei - not Quel'dorei. It's not Highborne. High elf ,also quel'dorei (same as Highborne in Darnassian), is the name that is dropped in order of the darnassian tongue (the original elven language) Sin'dorei that honoured the fallen, used by the night elves over 10,000 years ago, and again by the Sunstrider night elves (before they become high elves) briefly in the exile (if I remember correctly), and now again after the scourge invasion.

It's not calling themselves Highborne (which is Quel'dorei), I hope you realise that.


Also, it might be worth mentioning here, that the original Quel'dorei (i.e. Highborne), are Quel'dorei, not queldorei), meaning they aren't different from kaldorei. Kaldorei is the race name, Quel'dorei is a caste/sub-group name of kaldorei. No Highborne does not consider themselves kaldorei, they consider themselves are special type of kaldorei.


I think @ravenmoon and @Alanar had an interesting discussion on my other thread 2 years ago before they started hating each other, of the possibility that Shal'dorei is considered the same thing. There is a point to this, because if you follow the Nightborne quests, they don't really seem to consider themselves a separate race from kaldorei like the Thalassians do - their world is a kaldorei one too. It is clearly a continuation of what we are told, they believe themselves as the only surviving kaldorei - the devs tell us this. That until the shield comes down, they thought they were the only ones still alive in the world not under the control of the legion. Basically demons ruled Azeroth and the shield was the only thing protecting them. ( it has a sense of propaganda to it, but also willingness to believe this in order to keep living comfy)

Shal'dorei could really be the special name they give themselves to represent their situation and state, and like Quel'dorei is considered a part of kaldorei, not different like some fans think (not many fans understand the the difference between race and faction, there is one guy that thinks because it appears as race in character creation, it's a totally different race.. not realising that Humans, Forsaken , Kul'tirans and Worgen are all human race, just different factions which is why they appear as different races on character creation, but actually are factions of humans) - the guy's name is Syegfryed - he just doesn't get this.

This is quite within the realm of possibility, and it doesn't change the Nightborne from being a night elf sub-race at all of their own. They are just a different group of kaldorei that have developed this way and that's how they consider themselves, not as a new separate race like soem people think.

There is a lot of evidence that supports this:
1. Suramar for starters is completely unchanged from pre-sundering times - makes sense, given their limited natural resources in a bubble, and the city already being perfection (in their eyes) anyway.
2. They also don't change their culture at all, Suramar culture is unchanged in the 10,000 years, so it carries on the kaldorei city culture we have not been privy to seeing gin wow (but we are described in WotA trilogy and mentioned that this is the way of life in Eldre'thalas - though we aren't shown, because Eldre'thalas is nearly 1,000 (not 10,000 but 1,000 ) years falling into ruin by the time we get there after the 3rd war. and the horde (canonically) kick the Shen'dralar out in classic before they return sane and whole to restore the city (which we know the horde don't claim, but the ogres occupy the main bit, which Estulan sends you out to get back when you become their chieftan by defeating their king.)
3. All the iconography, symbology is all kaldorei - iSuramar is full of crescent moons, fanged nightborne, purple sikinned, silver eyes, using saber panther cats, in very night elven buildings, not to mention nocturnal, full of night elf statues, they even have the night elven pre-sundering nature love with lush gardens despite it's not the same gentle nature olove of the druids, but rather a harsher one that the pre-sundering kaldorei had taken too, often forcing nature with magic rather than letting it and working with.
4. Their story takes a route of nature redemption, coming together with other kaldorei on the island.
5. Farondis states them as kin, so do the Moonguard night elves in Moonguard stronghold
6. Valtrois, Faedris and many others are full of praise of their kaldorei heritage/nature
7. Occuleth remmbers fondly the prayers to Eluen from Falanaar temple, not from a perspective of a different race, but form that orf a part of his culture that was lost. which is one of the reasons nightborne priests are suspected to be Priests of Elune order, not light priests, the class returning to the nightborne from the return of the night el priests from Val'sharahh who help out in Suramar (see the Moonwell quests that ends in Shal'aran)


So if you examine it, the city is the same, the culture is the same kaldorei culture, the only thing that actually changes is the minor physical appearance alterations from the corruption of nightwell addiction.. and it's not a significant enough change by any means, it isn't hard to postulate or theorise they really just consider themselves are unique type of kaldorei called Shal'dorei or Nightborne.. this is why it's Shal'dorei not shaldorei (which is what it would be as a race rather than a faction, we say human not Human for the race, but if it was nation (i.e. faction) we would say Human. (you can have the same name used as both a race and a nation, when referring to race it's small letters, but a nation it's caps - night elf is the race, The Night Elves is the nation. Now we typically refer to the WC3 group the Night Elves as the Darnassians, as we've since been introduced to many other groups.

What I'm saying is Shal'dorei is just like Shen'dralar or Sin'dorei a faction of a race, rather than a name of a race strictly speaking. And all though character creation has Sin'dorei as a race, it isn't, it is a faction of high elf, the main high elf faction. Just like it's quite possible Shal'dorei is a faction of night elf, like the Shen'dralar.

[Rhlor]

Response to Tanaria -I've moved to the Night elf/borne Thread
It's possible he did, I remember looking at that quest a few times to try and determine.. the only thing I could conclude 100% was that the Shen'dralar were aware of the situation north, but didn't do anything about it. Which matches their profile and account later on.

It is possible Darth'Remar was aware of them, probably around the time of the exile, but unlikely.. however blizz could use the at slight as a reason why the blood elves later chose not to continue strengthening their ties with the shen'dralar (this is not lore, I'm just saying it's an opportunity to introduce lore that creates bad blood between Thalassians and Shen'dralar .

however for the continuity to work (without retcon and recast), , the druids would be unaware of the Shen'dralar. If Darth'remar is aware, it would be the Shen'dralar who reached out, although if they ever told that story, it could be Sunstriders doing their on reconnaissance and discovering Eldre'thalas survives and make up some in teresting story.

Another option is that the kaldorei in the north were aware of both, but no magical signature was coming out of Eldre'thalas or Quel'thalas so they never acted. REmember there is a Dream portal tree in Feralas and in Hinterlands not far from Quel'thalas - and WC3 lore tells us the druids monitored for magic - and we know the pylons in Eldre'thalas and the Ban'dinoriel in Quel'thalas were both 100% successful in hiding arcane signatures from the twisting nether. So there is a possibility that while he kaldorei nation wasn't aware, the druids were.. Remember they are two different organisation that did not collaborate. Two different focuses, druids were suppressing arcane signatures on Kalimdor possibly further magically, but it was the kaldorei nation led by the priesthood that were enforcing the ban on sentient life coming across the Ashenvale border and the ban on Highborne, not the druids. The druids in hinterlands would largely be focused on nature and the dream. It's worth bearing in mind that they may not have been looking or scouring the EK, the lore tells only Kalimdor was shrouded in mist by them and magically suppressed by the druids - not the night elf nation.

And for those who don't know (not you necessarily Tanaria), there is a difference if you know night elf lore. The druids are not limited to night elves, they include Cenarians, and the green dragon flight and wild gods they work with to ensure the balance of and restoration of nature. The night elf nation are the Kaldorei with their customs and culture that are now lead by the priesthood - these will have the star culture and all the other parts of the kaldorei that continued their customs that could be continued without city life or practice of arcane. They include the sentinels and watchers etc

There is a world tree in Darkshire too, but the night elves never caught the human magical activity either, which implies that they weren't monitoring for magic at all, focusing only on the dream there, and those places were rarely ever visited. We know the night elves as a nation were in isolation in the north of Kalimdor, so weren't frequenting the world, the druids (remember a different organisation) probably moved around a bit more but rarely - and the inaction against humans implies this, but isn't the only evidence.

1. in action against humans who's magic brought back the legion - one of the reasons the druids may not have spotted the activity of the humans was because the Coucnil of Tirisfal started by the high elves and humans were very effective in dealing with the threats before the druids could cotton on.

This coupled with the fact that the druids rarely ever went to these places, often land likely hibernating for thousands of years in the dream, matches.

2. Reports in the Tauren of Kalimdor, put night elves as legendary figures that were very rarely seen and at that several generations apart, which would mean perhaps an occasional night elf was glimpsed passing south, also meaning they rarely ventured south, and lore wise, only druids would likely be doing so, not kaldorei nation who were patrolling the regions from Hyjal to Ashenvale only druids, concerned with the global state of nature and suppressing arcane magic might make a trip further south.

3. Feralas quests tells us none of the kaldorei (although ti was referring to kaldorei nation, ) had really been to Feralas and looked around in 10k years. If a night elf druid had visited teh dream portal tree, the implication is they only carried out their business around that tree, but then the trees did not need a night elf druid to be involved, green dragons could have been the ones there for most of the time and they weren't concerned with monitoring for magic at all, just the work of the emerald dream, guarding the area of the trees only, not exploring what the other races or groups around were doing.

4. Legion quests also tell us the north Kalimdor group hadn't been to Val'Sharah the broken isles in 10,000 years -this is true for Malfurion and the northern druids.. meaning the dreamwalkers are a separate developed druidic group that Malfurion may have helped start in the few years after the sundering when some returned back there, but hadn't been since that period. Now the Wardens and watchers are a different organisation, as are the Moonguard.. these are likely all independent groups carrying out their vigil against the legion in their own ways, independent of each other.

Remember Malfurion did not rule or lead the night elves (nation), Tyrande did until Cataclysm, Malfruion is just greatly revered, and leads the druids which is not just night elves. The unseen path seems it's own organisation, as we know the Moonguard who survive on the island are.

Maiev returns to the broken isles presumably for the first time in nearly 10,000 years for the events in WC3.

I don't know when the warden vault was built, it could have been post WC3, or post sundering, with the Warden forces there maintaining their vigil and them communicating magically through scryer orbs like the ones used in the Ghostlands by the night elves



ALl this supports the lore that all the various night elf groups are in isolation, they are not restoring or networking or working as an empire, they seem largely unaware of each other and focusing on their respective goals and tasks, whether in Suramar, Eldre'thalas, Val'Sharah, broken isles, Northern Kalimdor, or the dream trees.

- - - Updated - - -

Response to Sighy -I've moved to the Night elf/borne Thread
Yes, and had not just night elves to contend with, but dragons and wild gods, because the accord of no-magic practice was made to prevent the Legion (i.e. world destruction) from happening, not because night elves gained some magic aversion (like some fans on here think) or were trying to not be addicted - (which is sad, people who think that night elf motivation for the ban on pain of death was because of some prejudicial magic casting hate or not to get addicted - just don't think at all, not only does the lore tell us why there was such a severe penalty, which utterly makes sense when most of the advanced /aware world (including dragons and wildgods )believe practice will bring back invading legions), the night elf is a highly intelligent and benevolent being by fundamental nature , that has arcane pre-disposition and nature love - such a being is not going invoke a penalty of death just to avoid addiction nor will they have some irrational prejudicial hate that would result in such a severe penalty (unless a bit crazy like Maiev was or corrupted like Azshara's Naga and the satyr get).. obviously there was a purpose to giving up something that was an integral part of how they lived their lives.. and they considered it worth it.

Sadly most fans just gloss over this - which is why they are shocked night elves use magic after warcraft 3, and can't understand why all the offensive spells of the Moon priests and half of those of the druids are arcane based - because they think the night elves are some magic hating group based on mis-information or not understanding the information given about them and why there is a ban on practice.

Most fans don't even get it's a ban on arcane magical practice, they think it's a ban on arcane magic, but totally forget that night elves are connected and protecting a huge arcane well on top of hyjal an d have used it to create many smaller arcane wells called moonwells, meaning they are completely suffused in the stuff, what they aren't doing is using the power to cast spells which is what draws the legion. They aren't banning arcane - you can't ban a primordial force, it's like saying we will ban energy. they only banned the use of the Well of Eternity for casting spells which is what their mage profession relied on entirely - because this was the only way to prevent the Legion from realising magic (which is what the night elves thought the legion wanted from Azeroth) and the only way the night elves believed the Legion could get to Azeroth, still existed on it. Remember the legion is banished when the well is imploded, the night elves feel that the Legion's prize is gone, removing the need for them to return (because they think it's the magic they're after), so without using magic, no one in the twisting nether would be able to sense magic is on Azeroth and if all practice is banned, no one would be tempted to try and summon the legion, and with the Well completely guarded, allowing no sentient being even into Ashenvale (the cut off line for approaching the Well) no one would have the means or know how to bring the Legion back - even if they were some who influenced by the satyr - which is what the kaldorei nation was often pre-occupied iwth until they won that war.


Response to Sighy -I've moved to the Night elf/borne Thread

I think the focus is wrong here.. they aren't tryign to actively distance themselves from the pre-usndeirn g kingdom... they are in this state because they won't use arcane magic in order to prevent the legion's return which is basically world destruction. THis is a far far far far greater reason forsuch a drastic change of lifestyle than "wanting to distnace themselves from the past" because their Queen got conceited.

• Think about it.. what was so bad about the past? the great arcane knowledge? No.. that's a good thing.
• THe great wonders and progress? no that's also good
• The great cities built by both ancient trees and Highborne? no that was also good
• The great cultivation of nature -which the lore tells us they also did in the pre-sundering era - no that was also good

.

So what exactly was bad about that era? Actually only getting addicted and the arrogance of the Highborne. Think !! You wouldn't mourn the loss of something so deeply if you didn't love it and weren't proud. Nor will you hate your good achievements either.

So what weren't they proud of? their hubris - the arrogance their kin (especially the druids who were once Highborne would be keenly aware of this). You may hate the Highborne for their role, but that is nothing compared to your hate for the Legion - problem is, in the minds of some fans I've noticed, they think night elves hate arcane magic and Highborne as their ultimate thing which makes no sense , when it's the Legion they hate the most and by far, then, in a self chastistiing way, hate how foolish they behaved (you know when a perosn who's pride has destroyed him reflects back and realises when he thought he was all that, it actually wasn't that important and he wasn't actually "all that".

But not being proud of your hubris and the folly of your Queen isn't the reason they live this way. The main reason is to prevent the legion returning. It is easier to fight addiction or stop magic for awhile to regain sanity, but not indefinitely. It's not distancing themselves from the pre-sundering civilization past, it's preventing the legion's return.

Did they want to distance themselves from the past? Not all of it, only the bit, towards the end, where they were conceited enough to allow the legion in. And the fault of that is borne most keenly by former Highborne (now druids or priests) or some highborne still around, but to a lesser extent others who were not arrogant.


WotA tells us most night elves were arrogant and had lost heir way a bit, due to what we now know is bad leadership from a Queen that had become addicted.

But the change in lifestyle is because they are banning magic to prevent the legion's return, not because they are distancing themselves from the pre-sundering civilization.. The only thing about that era night elves would hate is the arrogance and addiction they let themselves succumb to. Night elves aren't the only ones that hate that.. the Thalassian high elves, once night elves too themselves, hate that as much, even though eventually they got another type of addiction.. but no where near the problematic mind twisting one that corrupted Azshara.

The nightborne though addicted(out of necessity to survive) respect magic in a way they didn't around the time of the first invasion. They do continue to use arcane in abusive ways, but this is because they felt it necessary to survive. The druid valewalker, Farodin, makes it quite clear, that the goal is not elimination of magic (which he recognises made the elves, and is a part of them) but balance with magic. This is what the Nightborne need restored. And this is what his order the Valewalker (a combination of Highborne mages and early druids - i.e. night elf nature magic practitioners before the art became known as druidism, but who would late r have become druids when Malfurion advanced the art) were set up to solve.

Balance is embedded in the druid class to, which we know is made up of many former male Moonguard and Highborne, because of the important of it in preventing addiction and imbalances.. this has nothing to do with the ban on arcane practice by the well, the druid class is nota bout banning magic at all,.. an entire night elf race living in the north, 3 dragonflights and wild gods upheld that ban to prevent the legion returning, not to stop the night elves becoming addicted.. balance will stop addiction, you don't kill someone for practicing magic because you are afraid they will get addicted or you hate your past.

The point of the night elves was never to be an anti-magic group, the Long vigil ban is just a part of the story, not the reason for their existence. THeyw ere created to be a combination of magic wielding/loving dark elves and nature loving forest elves. In fact the best elements of both these. They were dark elves with a twist.. the twist being they weren't evil (like most DnD dark elves are) and they had a nature forest loving side.

With this in mind, it is wrong to assume the ban on arcane magic defines the existence and reason for the night elves. It doesn't, it simply informs the backdrop for the awesome story of WC3 and an interesting account for a different group of elves than the high elves we knew, but one that would be developed further down the line. Wc3 was a start for the night elves too in this modern era, not the end . It was the continuation of race, with a new beginning after another world changing event, not the definition of the group.

- - - Updated - - -


It is indeed what he says.. but the name of our royal lineage he is referring to is Sin'dorei - not Quel'dorei. It's not Highborne. High elf ,also quel'dorei (same as Highborne in Darnassian), is the name that is dropped in order of the darnassian tongue (the original elven language) Sin'dorei that honoured the fallen, used by the night elves over 10,000 years ago, and again by the Sunstrider night elves (before they become high elves) briefly in the exile (if I remember correctly), and now again after the scourge invasion.

It's not calling themselves Highborne (which is Quel'dorei), I hope you realise that.


Also, it might be worth mentioning here, that the original Quel'dorei (i.e. Highborne), are Quel'dorei, not queldorei), meaning they aren't different from kaldorei. Kaldorei is the race name, Quel'dorei is a caste/sub-group name of kaldorei. No Highborne does not consider themselves kaldorei, they consider themselves are special type of kaldorei.


I think @ravenmoon and @Alanar had an interesting discussion on my other thread 2 years ago before they started hating each other, of the possibility that Shal'dorei is considered the same thing. There is a point to this, because if you follow the Nightborne quests, they don't really seem to consider themselves a separate race from kaldorei like the Thalassians do - their world is a kaldorei one too. It is clearly a continuation of what we are told, they believe themselves as the only surviving kaldorei - the devs tell us this. That until the shield comes down, they thought they were the only ones still alive in the world not under the control of the legion. Basically demons ruled Azeroth and the shield was the only thing protecting them. ( it has a sense of propaganda to it, but also willingness to believe this in order to keep living comfy)

Shal'dorei could really be the special name they give themselves to represent their situation and state, and like Quel'dorei is considered a part of kaldorei, not different like some fans think (not many fans understand the the difference between race and faction, there is one guy that thinks because it appears as race in character creation, it's a totally different race.. not realising that Humans, Forsaken , Kul'tirans and Worgen are all human race, just different factions which is why they appear as different races on character creation, but actually are factions of humans) - the guy's name is Syegfryed - he just doesn't get this.

This is quite within the realm of possibility, and it doesn't change the Nightborne from being a night elf sub-race at all of their own. They are just a different group of kaldorei that have developed this way and that's how they consider themselves, not as a new separate race like soem people think.

There is a lot of evidence that supports this:
1. Suramar for starters is completely unchanged from pre-sundering times - makes sense, given their limited natural resources in a bubble, and the city already being perfection (in their eyes) anyway.
2. They also don't change their culture at all, Suramar culture is unchanged in the 10,000 years, so it carries on the kaldorei city culture we have not been privy to seeing gin wow (but we are described in WotA trilogy and mentioned that this is the way of life in Eldre'thalas - though we aren't shown, because Eldre'thalas is nearly 1,000 (not 10,000 but 1,000 ) years falling into ruin by the time we get there after the 3rd war. and the horde (canonically) kick the Shen'dralar out in classic before they return sane and whole to restore the city (which we know the horde don't claim, but the ogres occupy the main bit, which Estulan sends you out to get back when you become their chieftan by defeating their king.)
3. All the iconography, symbology is all kaldorei - iSuramar is full of crescent moons, fanged nightborne, purple sikinned, silver eyes, using saber panther cats, in very night elven buildings, not to mention nocturnal, full of night elf statues, they even have the night elven pre-sundering nature love with lush gardens despite it's not the same gentle nature olove of the druids, but rather a harsher one that the pre-sundering kaldorei had taken too, often forcing nature with magic rather than letting it and working with.
4. Their story takes a route of nature redemption, coming together with other kaldorei on the island.
5. Farondis states them as kin, so do the Moonguard night elves in Moonguard stronghold
6. Valtrois, Faedris and many others are full of praise of their kaldorei heritage/nature
7. Occuleth remmbers fondly the prayers to Eluen from Falanaar temple, not from a perspective of a different race, but form that orf a part of his culture that was lost. which is one of the reasons nightborne priests are suspected to be Priests of Elune order, not light priests, the class returning to the nightborne from the return of the night el priests from Val'sharahh who help out in Suramar (see the Moonwell quests that ends in Shal'aran)


So if you examine it, the city is the same, the culture is the same kaldorei culture, the only thing that actually changes is the minor physical appearance alterations from the corruption of nightwell addiction.. and it's not a significant enough change by any means, it isn't hard to postulate or theorise they really just consider themselves are unique type of kaldorei called Shal'dorei or Nightborne.. this is why it's Shal'dorei not shaldorei (which is what it would be as a race rather than a faction, we say human not Human for the race, but if it was nation (i.e. faction) we would say Human. (you can have the same name used as both a race and a nation, when referring to race it's small letters, but a nation it's caps - night elf is the race, The Night Elves is the nation. Now we typically refer to the WC3 group the Night Elves as the Darnassians, as we've since been introduced to many other groups.

What I'm saying is Shal'dorei is just like Shen'dralar or Sin'dorei a faction of a race, rather than a name of a race strictly speaking. And all though character creation has Sin'dorei as a race, it isn't, it is a faction of high elf, the main high elf faction. Just like it's quite possible Shal'dorei is a faction of night elf, like the Shen'dralar.

the story is called BLOOD OF THE HIGHBORNE! kaelthas refers to that blood when giving the name sindorei

[Tanaria]

the story is called BLOOD OF THE HIGHBORNE! kaelthas refers to that blood when giving the name sindorei

As much as I'd like to see the Sin'dorei move further away from the nelfs, they will always be Highborne descendants.

Indeed, you can argue that the Sin'dorei embody a different state of the Highborne name. A new outlook. A new view. A new faith, but still heavily dedicated to the arcane.
It's why their is so much "of the Highborne" associated with the Sin'dorei. Blizzard have always been keen on keeping that link between Sin'dorei and their Highborne heritage. We've got "Lament of the Highborne" which is associated with Quel'Thalas and the blood elves. We've got the novella, Blood of the Highborne, which basically tells us what the Blood Elves are. They are the survivors...they are the "blood of the highborne."

Indeed, the first link we heard was Lady Vashj, calling them "the last mortal descendants of the Highborne."

Then, using the Blood Elves as a main race for the introduction to Nazjatar, with their leader being a key character in the Eternal Palace - to me, it's clear that Blizzard don't want players to forget where the Blood Elves started and what they are.

[Mace]

The only legacy of the night elves the Sin’dorei carry on is the arcane. That’s it.

They changed everything else. M

They honour their ancestors who were courageous and died fighting the Legion, but they don’t want to be them or the night elves.

However they are linked. They are descendants of night elves.

I don’t think the Sin’dorei debt or hate their elven origins at all, just all the things about being Kaldorei they didn’t like.

Purple, nocturnal, Elune worship, Kaldorei culture whether pre-sundering or long vigil.

They changed many customs, but they are still elves. They don’t hate that or want to change that. Being elf means loving magic and nature. And they will love freely without restriction like the Darnassians use to have

[Rhlor]

The only legacy of the night elves the Sin’dorei carry on is the arcane. That’s it.

They changed everything else. M

They honour their ancestors who were courageous and died fighting the Legion, but they don’t want to be them or the night elves.

However they are linked. They are descendants of night elves.

I don’t think the Sin’dorei debt or hate their elven origins at all, just all the things about being Kaldorei they didn’t like.

Purple, nocturnal, Elune worship, Kaldorei culture whether pre-sundering or long vigil.

They changed many customs, but they are still elves. They don’t hate that or want to change that. Being elf means loving magic and nature. And they will love freely without restriction like the Darnassians use to have

Farstriders

[Tanaria]

The only legacy of the night elves the Sin’dorei carry on is the arcane. That’s it.

They changed everything else. M

They honour their ancestors who were courageous and died fighting the Legion, but they don’t want to be them or the night elves.

However they are linked. They are descendants of night elves.

I don’t think the Sin’dorei debt or hate their elven origins at all, just all the things about being Kaldorei they didn’t like.

Purple, nocturnal, Elune worship, Kaldorei culture whether pre-sundering or long vigil.

They changed many customs, but they are still elves. They don’t hate that or want to change that. Being elf means loving magic and nature. And they will love freely without restriction like the Darnassians use to have

As well as a song and an entire novella.

"Lament of the Highborne."
"Blood of the Highborne."

Plus, they were a major Horde race for the introduction to Nazjatar.

It's very clear that Blizzard wants players to remember where the Sin'dorei come from. It's quite poetic because it means Sin'dorei fans get the whole picture. They are the ones who get a past and present for the main group of Thalassian Elves. Indeed, High Elves are just a sub-race of the main Blood Elf race.

Void Elves are much more about the present.

[Mace]

As well as a song and an entire novella.

"Lament of the Highborne."
"Blood of the Highborne."

Plus, they were a major Horde race for the introduction to Nazjatar.

It's very clear that Blizzard wants players to remember where the Sin'dorei come from. It's quite poetic because it means Sin'dorei fans get the whole picture. They are the ones who get a past and present for the main group of Thalassian Elves. Indeed, High Elves are just a sub-race of the main Blood Elf race.

Void Elves are much more about the present.

I don't think it's such a big thing at all, it's good it's there because it reminds you that blood elves are connected to night elves, but in the totality of what is shown of the blood elves, and what we read about them, it is very minor.. but it's good it's there, you need to know the elves are connected, not completely separate.

- - - Updated - - -

Farstriders

I know some people think blood elves are only about the arcane, and that the Light and love of nature are very minor backhand things. That there is nothing to it that they chose the largest and most beautiful forest in the eastern kingdom to make their homes, and didn't upll it down to fill with arcane cities, but instead kept it at optimal level instead..

Who'd have thought Thalassians love forests and nature too, just because they have arcane love and it is prevalent. But then these people ignore the kaldorei too, they can't see that kaldorei arcane love even when it was at its most feverish had nature love, and even when nature reverence was low, nature love was still there.

But then some people find it hard to imagine that non-human races can be mutli-faceted, multi dimensional, that they can love more than one thing, and be good at more than one thin, in fact very good at several thing. They are so use to the DnD versions that are very 1-dimensional, and think well, hey, when i see night elves they're only about forests (depsite most of their written lore showing just as much nature stuff as arcane and just as much attention on demon hunting and Elune - but then these guys don't read).

And oh, they conclude blood elves are just about arcane, because of the TBC quests, forgetting these are high elves, and all the history of the high elves that has the ligh and nautre love right up there, and all the evidence of this carrying on, though at first it wasn't the greater emphasis.

[Rhlor]

I don't think it's such a big thing at all, it's good it's there because it reminds you that blood elves are connected to night elves, but in the totality of what is shown of the blood elves, and what we read about them, it is very minor.. but it's good it's there, you need to know the elves are connected, not completely separate.

- - - Updated - - -



I know some people think blood elves are only about the arcane, and that the Light and love of nature are very minor backhand things. That there is nothing to it that they chose the largest and most beautiful forest in the eastern kingdom to make their homes, and didn't upll it down to fill with arcane cities, but instead kept it at optimal level instead..

Who'd have thought Thalassians love forests and nature too, just because they have arcane love and it is prevalent. But then these people ignore the kaldorei too, they can't see that kaldorei arcane love even when it was at its most feverish had nature love, and even when nature reverence was low, nature love was still there.

But then some people find it hard to imagine that non-human races can be mutli-faceted, multi dimensional, that they can love more than one thing, and be good at more than one thin, in fact very good at several thing. They are so use to the DnD versions that are very 1-dimensional, and think well, hey, when i see night elves they're only about forests (depsite most of their written lore showing just as much nature stuff as arcane and just as much attention on demon hunting and Elune - but then these guys don't read).

And oh, they conclude blood elves are just about arcane, because of the TBC quests, forgetting these are high elves, and all the history of the high elves that has the ligh and nautre love right up there, and all the evidence of this carrying on, though at first it wasn't the greater emphasis.

the racial leader blood elf is a farstrider the farstrider are the military forces of quelthalas the military leader of quelthalas is a farstrider.

about the darnassian they prohibited the use of arcane magic for ten thousand years, it is obvious in their current society arcane magic is something small, approximately ten years ago they again accepted the shendrelar that it was not even all of them.

I do not deny that the arcane exists in current Darnassian society, but it is far from having the same importance as the druids that dominate that society

[Mace]

@Rhlor

I've moved my responses to you to the NIght/elfborne thread as they largely focus on that.

[Rhlor]

indeed, yet when last was focus drawn to the Farstriders or explored that side of the Thalassian elves?


Yet, arcane magic has been an integral part of the night elf story, when Darnasisans banned it, when they lifted the ban, it's actually a substantial chunk of both their literature and the new developments of the night elf that came after classic. For anyone who cares to look, if you compare the amount of screen time and writing time given to night elves and the arcane, nature , Elune and demon hunting, they're actually roughly the same. However because there was such a long gap between classic and continuing the night elf story in cataclysm, coupled by how often people replay WC3 and classic, but don't read the books nor play Cata or Legion as often, in their minds the nature setting is more prevalent. To the extent that the devs have now steered the night elves away from their duality and closer to that singular expression.

According to Wolfheart, all of them accepted them back in the end. Which makes sense if you apply that night elves are both highly intelligent (s o able to see reason beyond their pain or anger) and benevolent (which means they will tend to wards mercy, forgiveness and kindness in general). It was shown that Maiev was the main instigator and source of the resistance against accepting the Highborne. And once it was realised the crazy extent,including murder, she had gone to to prevent them being accepted, the resistance melted away. This is not to say it wasn't difficult for some night eles, just to say that the acceptance happened a lot sooner.


Indeed, correct-ish - you mean arcane spell casting focus and dominant in society like it was in the pre-sundering era. Arcane as a power source is super prevalent - the Well of Eternity, the Moonwells are everywhere, and the arcane is considered sacred, as are those waters by the priesthood and all night elves.

It's just the prevalence of spell casting is much less in the wider community, ,understandably, it's only been a few years since the ban lifted. However amongst the Highborne society and other arcane groups like the Moonguard remnant and Farondis, it is off course, very prevalent..

Night elves will probably be spread out evenly amongst the arcane, nature, Elune and to a lesser extent the Illidari. By nature they will always have very talented people with the arcane, this is how the Highborne caste was born, and the race has that high magic affinity. But the arcane is not the only expression, nature now has developed far beyond where it was in pre-sundering times and is just as appealing to the benevolent sensibilities of the race, so the arcane will never dominate like it did towards the end of Azshara's reign.. why?


Because there is no Azshara to push it to the exclusion of all else (even if another amazing night elf magic user rises to great prominence and respect, I doubt they could achieve the love Azshara did for her people and i doubt Elune loving and nature loving night elves would allow themselves to ever be swept so completely away by an astonishing and charismatic leader (while the night elves in Suramar did with Elisande, you can argue it would have been impossible if they had lived in the after effects of the sundering or had leaders like Tyrande and Malfurion around alongside Elisande), and the wow factor is gone, while they know the arcane does wonders, every night elf will remember what corrupted the queen and the legion.. yet at the same time it's the arcane that gave the night elves to be who they are and it's something they are both good at and love. It may have shone brighter than nature and even Elune to a lot of people during Azshara's reign, but even if it went much further today , it still won't dominate their society..because they now know the value of balance, the value of nature, and the faithfulness of a Goddess they won't abandon.

So there will always be a fair number of night elves going into service of Elune, also a fair number choosing nature, as well as a fair number going to the arcane.. it would be far more balanced this time round and potentially the best and greatest they will ever be. As well as the happiest and most fulfilled. It should make them a complete, whole and robust society, excellent in every area, lacking nothing. They won't need to be world conquerors, but they'd have their space, they'd develop and be advanced, they'd n one would be ale to unseat or destroy them because they're just ahead of everyone else and have gotten it right. They'd also be content with where they are too.. so don't expect conquests from them - it's not their nature. Curiosity and beauty, learning and harmony will motivate them.

In theory, they should be the best out there like this. And if you consider great advancement and harmony to be the greatest things, then they'd be the greatest to you.

I also feel night elves would have a lot drawn to the Illidari, thanks to Illidan and both the revelations he brought in legion that actually vindicate him from being "betrayer" as well as his heroics in ending the Legion. How many night elves pursue that path, is debatable as the story stands, but it could be nearly as substantial as the other fields. The thing is the demon hunter is the toughest of the lot, so it's failure rate would also be high, resulting in less numbers. It lends it self to consuming rage and hatred for demons, whiles the other fields, like arcane, nature and Elune lend themselves to attributes that are natural to the night elf = arcane lends itself to their high intelligence and their natural arcane affinity, nature lends itself to their benevolence and nature love, Elune seems to be the heart of thier identity and existence tied to the stars and the moon and the Well they get fulfilment of those two in her order.. but Demon hunting, that requires intense drive, hatred for demons and an urgency that isn't there now with the demon's dead. So it's hard to see this being as popular, yet night elves have just experienced a genocide event again, so there will be plenty of hatred and a drive to combat injustice and evil and channel that into learning fel and the paths of a demon hunter. For though the horde is to blame, the night elves were in such a weakened state because of the legion. If it weren't for them, then such a massacre would never have been possible - they could spin it that way to create more DHs.


Blood Elves, Darnassians, Night elves and Nightborne - Magical Dominance:

Note that the way the arcane is dominant or prevalent in these society varies and is different in each. don't assume just because they love the arcane, it's the same type of prevalence in night elf societies as it is in blood elven and high elven. High elf society had a far healthier arcane balance than Nightborne society or indeed pre-sundering kaldorei society in the Invasion period - i.e. the addiction era (note that it was also much healthier in pre-sundering society before that period of addiction.

Also, how is also very different. The Sunwell suffused all high elves, but not all dabbled in the arcane, it was more balanced because they did other things, and didn't have the all consuming spell casting focus that was part of night elf culture. You could have no talent in the arcane and not be able to cast a simple spell as a Thalassian, but you were still connected to the Sunwell , meanwhile night elves were taught spell work from early age, alongside reading and writing, whether they had the talent to become mages or elsewhere.

Night elves in Suramar who became Nightborne, literally drunk arcane energy in the specially distilled version of arcwine, this was their main source of sustenance, which si why they are so skinny, and it was this abuse that warped them. you see Nightborne around the Nightwell in the Nighthold (Suramar Palace) literally drunk on the magical energy).. This ofc is just too far. No wonder the curse of the Nightwell happened.

farondis court are undead, there are only three moonguard survivors.

although it is true that we saw magos night elves from Cata in different expa. the reality is that we see many more druids all the time.

I think that in the future the arcanum will be important in Darnassian society, but today it is still very small.

and why do we talk about night elves in a blood elf thread?

returning to the thread without a doubt the main highborne elven societies are quelthalas and suramar

[Tanaria]

I don't think it's such a big thing at all, it's good it's there because it reminds you that blood elves are connected to night elves, but in the totality of what is shown of the blood elves, and what we read about them, it is very minor.. but it's good it's there, you need to know the elves are connected, not completely separate.

Mate - one of the first quests for the Blood Elves has you go and honor the Shrine of Dath'Remar.

Not just for being the first King of Quel'Thalas, but the Mage quest-giver also states that he led the Elves from Kalimdor, braving all elements of the weather and finding Quel'Thalas.

Again, I agree - them being from Zin-Azshari isn't important, they could have been from Suramar, Eldre'Thalas, Shan'daral or even Ameth'Aran, the Blood Elves do have a lot of respect for their ancestors, as is indicated by the second or third quest on Sunstrider Isle.

[Mace]

@Tanaria

I've moved my response to you here to the Night elf/borne thread where it is more relevant.

Hope you got to read ALL of it.