Uther and Tyrande interactions with Sylvanas.

[VladlTutushkin]

Yes, it rides on the Warcraft feel, Azeroth and the like, which Shadowlands lacks, being in space. The idea that a relevant number of people will quit because of Sylvanas is pure nonsense. This same spore of fickle morons was praising things like the Jaina cinematics last go around and complaining about how the plot just wasn't cosmic enough despite being told repeatedly that exactly this level of detachment would take place. The exact same group now complain about not being peasants killing boars. Their opinions are completely fluid and therefore entirely dismissable provided the rest of the product functions and the game's PR is above water, which it isn't. The plot itself is incidental in that calculus. Note that the last time mass dissatisfaction with the plot was a pertinent factor was 'Draenor is free' and the absolute tail end of BFA, incidentally also things that are shitty in gameplay, whereas people only had this epiphany about Shadowlands' plot being hot garbage about six months in when the content drought set in.

You dont get it. The problem with Shadowlands and Draenor plot was that it was bland, boring and "not Warcraft feel". More so in Shadowlands then with Draenor. People get angry MUCH more not when plot is just "boring" but when they feel personally fucked by it. Aka dumbass Grommash "Draenor is free", death of Garrosh (all those "garrosh did nothing wrong" posts spanning miles) and especially Burning of Teldrassil. People can put on with boring plot because its just that - bland and boring. Shadowlands only starts getting MORE flack when it reminds us of BfA and all its screwed up moments.

You should have noticed that trend long ago.

Because of WoWs trademark tribalism BfA was such a disaster, both from writers and fans. Draenor looks like a calm and collected discussion in comparison to absolute flame wars of BfA and Shadowlands related to BfA.

Also i am still not fucken sure how they can reaffirm that YES Sylvanas DID wiped out most of night elves ("race nearly wiped out") and yet also insist on her getting redemption now. Like WHAT WOULD IT COST THEM to say instead "while her plans to wipe out the night elves failed and far more survived then Jailer hoped" or something like that? I mean, they making it harder to "let go" in the same post that implies us to let go!

[Puxycat]

I am amazed how nice they just removed arthas from existance haha what a tragedy.

[Super Dickmann]

You dont get it. The problem with Shadowlands and Draenor plot was that it was bland, boring and "not Warcraft feel". More so in Shadowlands then with Draenor. People get angry MUCH more not when plot is just "boring" but when they feel personally fucked by it. Aka dumbass Grommash "Draenor is free", death of Garrosh (all those "garrosh did nothing wrong" posts spanning miles) and especially Burning of Teldrassil. People can put on with boring plot because its just that - bland and boring. Shadowlands only starts getting MORE flack when it reminds us of BfA and all its screwed up moments.

You are wrong on the most basic level. Draenor wasn't a departure from the Warcraft feel, it's as authentic Warcraft as you can get in terms of setting, baddies etc. It's why it had the most successful launch of any individual expansion relative to its time period and why it was such a hype machine. And yet, because the expansion itself was bad on the level of basic functionality, it still routinely tops polls about worst Warcraft storylines. Is it because there was anything that galling about a story that's entirely self-contained who's net consequences is Maraad dying and us having one extra Gul'dan? No. It's because the game itself was poor at the time and when the game is poor its other aspects are attackable. WoD's story was stupid, but inoffensive, and even the Grommash thing is a meme more than anything, but the expansion was bad and so it spread out. People will still fall over themselves to defend TBC's plot, despite the fact that it's a pile of retcons held together by string who's ending is incomprehensible without having read several tie-in manga not because it's actually good, but because it's when the game was on the up and the actual play was fun. How many people criticize how KJ, a franchise villain of the RTS days tied to two player factions got shivved as a tacked on boss and given a pseudo redemptive wave goodbye? Next to nill, not because it's a good plot beat but because if you're satisfied with the game as a whole, as Legion was relative to WoD, you don't care and it doesn't stay in the memory.

Shadowlands, concept and all, shipped its 4 million copies off the back of the 'good expansion, bad expansion' meme and was defended accordingly up until Blizzard first fucked up the release schedule and then cannibalized itself over the lawsuit and trying to signal its modern values. Its plot was just as poor at all times of this, but only at one point did this become a relevant battlecry. It's the same with people suddenly going on about how currency systems and grinds are bad despite them being the meat of the game, it's an outgrowth of the fact that the expansion itself is fundamentally underdelivering and this subset of players will shut up if it's good and leave completely if it's bad, with the latter being far more likely given Blizzard. The players who are so assmad about story that they'll continually complain about it regardless of the expansion's quality or lack thereof, like you and I are doing, are a negligible segment of the playerbase.

[Varodoc]

I'm not going to lie, I originally thought that was a void elf

How could you possibly mistake a rotting zombie in rags for one of the Ren'dorei.

[VladlTutushkin]

You are wrong on the most basic level. Draenor wasn't a departure from the Warcraft feel, it's as authentic Warcraft as you can get in terms of setting, baddies etc. It's why it had the most successful launch of any individual expansion relative to its time period and why it was such a hype machine. And yet, because the expansion itself was bad on the level of basic functionality, it still routinely tops polls about worst Warcraft storylines. Is it because there was anything that galling about a story that's entirely self-contained who's net consequences is Maraad dying and us having one extra Gul'dan? No. It's because the game itself was poor at the time and when the game is poor its other aspects are attackable. WoD's story was stupid, but inoffensive, and even the Grommash thing is a meme more than anything, but the expansion was bad and so it spread out. People will still fall over themselves to defend TBC's plot, despite the fact that it's a pile of retcons held together by string who's ending is incomprehensible without having read several tie-in manga not because it's actually good, but because it's when the game was on the up and the actual play was fun. How many people criticize how KJ, a franchise villain of the RTS days tied to two player factions got shivved as a tacked on boss and given a pseudo redemptive wave goodbye? Next to nill, not because it's a good plot beat but because if you're satisfied with the game as a whole, as Legion was relative to WoD, you don't care and it doesn't stay in the memory.

Shadowlands, concept and all, shipped its 4 million copies off the back of the 'good expansion, bad expansion' meme and was defended accordingly up until Blizzard first fucked up the release schedule and then cannibalized itself over the lawsuit and trying to signal its modern values. Its plot was just as poor at all times of this, but only at one point did this become a relevant battlecry. It's the same with people suddenly going on about how currency systems and grinds are bad despite them being the meat of the game, it's an outgrowth of the fact that the expansion itself is fundamentally underdelivering and this subset of players will shut up if it's good and leave completely if it's bad, with the latter being far more likely given Blizzard. The players who are so assmad about story that they'll continually complain about it regardless of the expansion's quality or lack thereof, like you and I are doing, are a negligible segment of the playerbase.

So in essence your statement is "they can write literally nothing, or garbage so hot it will melt the floor and still sell the game to great sucess"? Thats frankly wrong. Its the same tactic Blizz want us to engage. Thinking that "it dosent matter, that dosent matter" and nothing really matters, its WoW , it will forever be the best.

Its is not so. People require a complex "product" to stay put EVEN if they bought into hype and purchased the expansion. And when plot is bullshit, making people feel like they were cucked and play a faction of pansy losers... Or a faction of slobbering animalistic cretins... Then they start reacting harshly towards other aspects too. And those aspects are also no good. And it goes on and on.

The fact they THINK they can keep shoving that shit into players mouths and somehow pull through without massive player losses is laughable.

The BfA plot was "participation killer". It made you feel like shit, which in turn made every extra grind feel even worse and so on and so on.

[Super Dickmann]

So in essence your statement is "they can write literally nothing, or garbage so hot it will melt the floor and still sell the game to great sucess"? Thats frankly wrong. Its the same tactic Blizz want us to engage. Thinking that "it dosent matter, that dosent matter" and nothing really matters, its WoW , it will forever be the best.

Its is not so. People require a complex "product" to stay put EVEN if they bought into hype and purchased the expansion. And when plot is bullshit, making people feel like they were cucked and play a faction of pansy losers... Or a faction of slobbering animalistic cretins... Then they start reacting harshly towards other aspects too. And those aspects are also no good. And it goes on and on.

The fact they THINK they can keep shoving that shit into players mouths and somehow pull through without massive player losses is laughable.

The BfA plot was "participation killer". It made you feel like shit, which in turn made every extra grind feel even worse and so on and so on.

Yes, I'm saying that most people play WoW for the gameplay and for the individual grind systems present and that only when those things fundamentally fail to deliver do people begin to pay more attention to the plot. Or if they're already interested, the way people on forums like this one and discuss that stuff on its own. But the majority of the playerbase is not meaningfully invested in the plot save theme, flashiness and basic function. BFA did not fail because the plot was a nosedive through the franchise's most fundamental aspects to get us to an endless line of SL-tier expansions where our insufferably twee copy-paste protagonists fight ghosts in space that SL's own failure may have luckily saved us from. It could have been just as foul and skated through based on its emotional beats the way certain aspects of it like the Jaina cutscenes did, provided the underlying product was functional. But the product was poor relative to Legion and so these things drew more attention. People quit en masse because the game underdelivers content and does so behind schedule in a way derivative of prior expansions.

[VladlTutushkin]

Yes, I'm saying that most people play WoW for the gameplay and for the individual grind systems present and that only when those things fundamentally fail to deliver do people begin to pay more attention to the plot. Or if they're already interested, the way people on forums like this one and discuss that stuff on its own. But the majority of the playerbase is not meaningfully invested in the plot save theme, flashiness and basic function. BFA did not fail because the plot was a nosedive through the franchise's most fundamental aspects to get us to an endless line of SL-tier expansions where our insufferably twee copy-paste protagonists fight ghosts in space that SL's own failure may have luckily saved us from. It could have been just as foul and skated through based on its emotional beats the way certain aspects of it like the Jaina cutscenes did, provided the underlying product was functional. But the product was poor relative to Legion and so these things drew more attention. People quit en masse because the game underdelivers content and does so behind schedule in a way derivative of prior expansions.

I dont think so. You dont have the metrics and neither do it, but sheer amount of butthurt, not even on forums but all over the WoW related media was so intense that even mainstream media began to pick up on it.

I am still convinced that there is no small number of people who when faced with plot so utter shit as BfA would quite no matter how "amazing" raids may be. And if raids are bad they quit even sooner. Hell, i quit because of that and i raided Heroics and tried Mythics. And i was grinding. And mount farming. And even PvPing. Only thing i never touched if i could was Arena since i consider it a monkey business.

And many of people i personally know usually hanged around for a while before quitting, some later then myself, some around the same time. Some came back for SL and most of those already left the game again by now.

[Super Dickmann]

I dont think so. You dont have the metrics and neither do it, but sheer amount of butthurt, not even on forums but all over the WoW related media was so intense that even mainstream media began to pick up on it.

I am still convinced that there is no small number of people who when faced with plot so utter shit as BfA would quite no matter how "amazing" raids may be. And if raids are bad they quit even sooner. Hell, i quit because of that and i raided Heroics and tried Mythics. And i was grinding. And mount farming. And even PvPing. Only thing i never touched if i could was Arena since i consider it a monkey business.

And many of people i personally know usually hanged around for a while before quitting, some later then myself, some around the same time. Some came back for SL and most of those already left the game again by now.

We don't, but we can make an educated guess and one of these takes lends itself more to the situation than the other. Mainstream press talking about it is both meaninless in as much as they don't know shit about shit and coincided with a tangle of other bad news as regarded the game, including the internal shake-ups of the game and its slow as hell schedule. Note that this did not take place with the Burning of Teldrassil, which instead got fawning interviews with Danuser and Afrasiabi about the lessons involved. If plot itself had a definitive weight then either SW:TOR or FFXIV would have taken a much larger market share much sooner given how they're far more story-focused and much better at it. It's the failure of the game as a game that has lead to its current state. Story and especially feel have a role, but it's much lesser compared to those and a lot less decisive on public perception. 'Lol Sylvanas' and 'lol draenor is free' are emblematic of the game during its fail states, but they're not the cause.

[Zuben]

I mean, let's say we kill Sylvanas. Then what? Her soul would just go to the Shadowlands, which effectively means we'd surrender her to one of the covenants whom we have no power over. Her fate might not even be in Revendreth if she earnestly regrets her actions now that her soul is complete. I imagine Uther mentoring her would rather mark her to become one of the Kyrian. Maw will probably be decommissioned, and good riddance as it's a stupid concept anyway since Revendreth exists.

No, since we are now very aware what afterlife looks like I'd rather we kept Sylv in our custody. Maybe the Wardens would be inclined to keep watch over her.

[shise]

As long as she lives what does it matter? Her death was the sole fair judgement for what she did. Now she gets to be mentired by Uther and discover “good side” of herself.

What it solves? What it helps? Its bullshit.

If she is allowed to live on a basis of “tell us all you know” then i guess it works. But i doubt they will put her into the ground after that.

Also dont kid yourself if you think Tyrande will achieve anything aside from MAYBE impotent growling and at worst forgiveness and tears.

You are wrong, Sylvanas must prevail.
She is too important of a character to "kill" her.
She had her reasons and he was trying to save Azeroth, remove the veil.

What will happen is that she will become the new Lich King. She will probably take on the burden as she sees what misleaded actions brought upon Azeroth instead and that will a way of taking her out of the picture without killing her for no reason. Instead, she will bear wht she never wanted, serve in eternity ad at the same time, offer a sacrifice that more than pays off for what "she" did.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not going to lie, I originally thought that was a void elf

I also thought so, but the fact that she is jsut as enlarged as Uther and Jaina means that she is a main, relevant character. No other female void elf who happens to have simialr facial characteristics is of any relevance right now to be there, out of the blue. So it is definitely Sylvanas. And I am glad to see that she is invovled in a good way.

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean, let's say we kill Sylvanas. Then what? Her soul would just go to the Shadowlands, which effectively means we'd surrender her to one of the covenants whom we have no power over. Her fate might not even be in Revendreth if she earnestly regrets her actions now that her soul is complete. I imagine Uther mentoring her would rather mark her to become one of the Kyrian. Maw will probably be decommissioned, and good riddance as it's a stupid concept anyway since Revendreth exists.

No, since we are now very aware what afterlife looks like I'd rather we kept Sylv in our custody. Maybe the Wardens would be inclined to keep watch over her.

Kill her, then kill her again so she is gone for good. I doubt any Covenant will defend her considering that she was in cahoots with Jailer and fucked them over so hard.

Or completely mind-wipe her as Kyrian and destroy the copy of her memories entirely.

- - - Updated - - -

We don't, but we can make an educated guess and one of these takes lends itself more to the situation than the other. Mainstream press talking about it is both meaninless in as much as they don't know shit about shit and coincided with a tangle of other bad news as regarded the game, including the internal shake-ups of the game and its slow as hell schedule. Note that this did not take place with the Burning of Teldrassil, which instead got fawning interviews with Danuser and Afrasiabi about the lessons involved. If plot itself had a definitive weight then either SW:TOR or FFXIV would have taken a much larger market share much sooner given how they're far more story-focused and much better at it. It's the failure of the game as a game that has lead to its current state. Story and especially feel have a role, but it's much lesser compared to those and a lot less decisive on public perception. 'Lol Sylvanas' and 'lol draenor is free' are emblematic of the game during its fail states, but they're not the cause.

I disagree, but i see you will not be convinced so whatever.

What i still want to talk about is why they fanned up her "morally grey genocide" instead of downplaying it in the message that also implies that we should forgive her.

- - - Updated - - -

You are wrong, Sylvanas must prevail.
She is too important of a character to "kill" her.
She had her reasons and he was trying to save Azeroth, remove the veil.

What will happen is that she will become the new Lich King. She will probably take on the burden as she sees what misleaded actions brought upon Azeroth instead and that will a way of taking her out of the picture without killing her for no reason. Instead, she will bear wht she never wanted, serve in eternity ad at the same time, offer a sacrifice that more than pays off for what "she" did.

- - - Updated - - -



I also thought so, but the fact that she is jsut as enlarged as Uther and Jaina means that she is a main, relevant character. No other female void elf who happens to have simialr facial characteristics is of any relevance right now to be there, out of the blue. So it is definitely Sylvanas. And I am glad to see that she is invovled in a good way.

Sounds more like a reward then a punishment.

Also what you said is bullshit, she had exactly no plans besides trusting Jailer to keep his word. So even if her actions end up helping us she did it unintentionally, and she was on-board with Jailer's plans until it involved her becoming a slave "de jure".

[Super Dickmann]

I disagree, but i see you will not be convinced so whatever.

What i still want to talk about is why they fanned up her "morally grey genocide" instead of downplaying it in the message that also implies that we should forgive her.

For the same reason there's a loyalist route or indeed there was a Night Warrior in the first place. Blizzard don't budge between story routes within an expansion but they do try to pander when they can. They must address it, much like they had to address the night elf grievances, but by address they mean mention and then resume what they were doing anyway, as they've been doing throughout SL which has Teldrassil come up fairly often but never in the context of Sylvanas' accountability, as if the tree lit itself on fire.

[Zendhal The Black]

I am amazed how nice they just removed arthas from existance haha what a tragedy.

I mean... it's the best thing the narrative team could have done...

Just look how they ruined all the well established characters. Do you want to get Arthas the same treatment?

[VladlTutushkin]

For the same reason there's a loyalist route or indeed there was a Night Warrior in the first place. Blizzard don't budge between story routes within an expansion but they do try to pander when they can. They must address it, much like they had to address the night elf grievances, but by address they mean mention and then resume what they were doing anyway, as they've been doing throughout SL which has Teldrassil come up fairly often but never in the context of Sylvanas' accountability, as if the tree lit itself on fire.

They could have still mentioned it but said that death tall was far less then expected by the Jailer and that evacuation was successful mostly.

Instead they doubled down on how horrible it was and how many people died there.

[Super Dickmann]

They could have still mentioned it but said that death tall was far less then expected by the Jailer and that evacuation was successful mostly.

Instead they doubled down on how horrible it was and how many people died there.

It'd be cheap, but I don't think that's why they did it. The likely reason is tone deafness, but I have the growing suspicion that they'll use the 'rewrite reality' element of the final encounter with the Bald Man to 'fix' unpopular elements. I wouldn't put it past them to have the tree fixed to which end keeping it tragic and thus a huge deal would make it more impactful. It'd be very lazy, but entirely in their wheelhouse and keep this from haunting them for all time. The fact that the Jailer's boss room looks like it has azerite in it further suggests they might want to go back to a lot of these memetic unresolved plots.

[Tanaria]

Look, we know it'll be crap.
Anduin = crap
Sylvanas = crap
Tyrande = crap
Jaina = crap
Thrall = crap
Baine = crap
Shandris = crap

Yes, I mentioned all those who are still alive and in the Shadowlands - they are all crap and I'd be content with them all remaining in the SL for two or three expansions, whilst other characters on Azeroth, with an Azeroth based expansion, take the lead.

I'm so hoping that 9.2 will be the final patch, where we can move on and forget this expansion ever happened!

[VladlTutushkin]

It'd be cheap, but I don't think that's why they did it. The likely reason is tone deafness, but I have the growing suspicion that they'll use the 'rewrite reality' element of the final encounter with the Bald Man to 'fix' unpopular elements. I wouldn't put it past them to have the tree fixed to which end keeping it tragic and thus a huge deal would make it more impactful. It'd be very lazy, but entirely in their wheelhouse.

I HIGHLY doubt they will go for "rewrite" or "mass res" thing. So far all "renewal" points out is just "accepting" or rather biting the pillow and applying cream to the sphincter.

I bet it was just peak tone deafness and in the end night elves still remain an endangered species while Sylvanas prances around all heroic and free, true fucken girlboss.

[Super Dickmann]

I HIGHLY doubt they will go for "rewrite" or "mass res" thing. So far all "renewal" points out is just "accepting" or rather biting the pillow and applying cream to the sphincter.

I bet it was just peak tone deafness and in the end night elves still remain an endangered species while Sylvanas prances around all heroic and free, true fucken girlboss.

I think it's in the realm of possibility largely for two reasons - the first is that Blizzard badly want to get these bugbears out of the way and it's haunting them still and this'll be a pandering move. They hate long-term consequences. For another, the next expansion is Azeroth-based and they already have a lot of unused Night Elf assets. Is it likely? Unclear, but it's possible. The 'reality rewrite thing is just too obvious a tool to not get at least some use.

[VladlTutushkin]

I think it's in the realm of possibility largely for two reasons - the first is that Blizzard badly want to get these bugbears out of the way and it's haunting them still and this'll be a pandering move. They hate long-term consequences. For another, the next expansion is Azeroth-based and they already have a lot of unused Night Elf assets. Is it likely? Unclear, but it's possible. The 'reality rewrite thing is just too obvious a tool to not get at least some use.

Want to make another bet, hmm?

Best we get will likely be some bullshit of those souls coming back to Azeroth as animals. Maybe to pander to progressive vegan/vegetarian crowd, maybe write how now night elves dont hunt much because you never know if you are not shooting your genocided family member.

[Super Dickmann]

Want to make another bet, hmm?

Best we get will likely be some bullshit of those souls coming back to Azeroth as animals. Maybe to pander to progressive vegan/vegetarian crowd, maybe write how now night elves dont hunt much because you never know if you are not shooting your genocided family member.

No, I don't feel strongly enough about it to take the bets on it. I don't even like it as it leads towards further unification. I'd take bets on Sylvanas getting away with it, but you wouldn't take it. Hell you'd be the one bidding first.