[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Biomega]

WoT is, in a weird way, more interesting in summary than in detail. It has some cool world-building going on, and an array of very compelling players on the larger field of the overarching plot. But it also has a lot of overly detailed deep-dives into errant strands of half-formed mythologies (like e.g. the Great Hunt, or most of Tel'aran'rhiod) and a very, uh, "generous" overall pacing. It feels like a bit of a chore at times, and frustratingly drawn-out. 13 books is simply too much (and that's not counting the prequel) for what is really a fairly standard good-vs-evil narrative. As a result of that bloat, there's a few unfortunate tendencies that can be observed, like e.g. power inflation for characters.

It's not as detail-obsessed as the A Song of Ice and Fire books (GoT) but certainly there's a lot of uncompressed plot floating about that could perhaps have been condensed neatly without too much loss.

I actually use WoT when teaching narratology as an example of narrative running rampant, in contrast to e.g. The Lord of the Rings where epic scope can still be contained in a reasonable narrative length. I'm not sure if the size of WoT would work for it or against it in a TV adaptation. On the one hand people will undoubtedly get bored; on the other hand, there seems to be a kind of boundless appetite for content. Hard to say, but probably irrelevant if they botch it in other aspects, like it seems they are...

[Egomaniac]

WoT is, in a weird way, more interesting in summary than in detail. It has some cool world-building going on, and an array of very compelling players on the larger field of the overarching plot. But it also has a lot of overly detailed deep-dives into errant strands of half-formed mythologies (like e.g. the Great Hunt, or most of Tel'aran'rhiod) and a very, uh, "generous" overall pacing. It feels like a bit of a chore at times, and frustratingly drawn-out. 13 books is simply too much (and that's not counting the prequel) for what is really a fairly standard good-vs-evil narrative. As a result of that bloat, there's a few unfortunate tendencies that can be observed, like e.g. power inflation for characters.

It's not as detail-obsessed as the A Song of Ice and Fire books (GoT) but certainly there's a lot of uncompressed plot floating about that could perhaps have been condensed neatly without too much loss.

I actually use WoT when teaching narratology as an example of narrative running rampant, in contrast to e.g. The Lord of the Rings where epic scope can still be contained in a reasonable narrative length. I'm not sure if the size of WoT would work for it or against it in a TV adaptation. On the one hand people will undoubtedly get bored; on the other hand, there seems to be a kind of boundless appetite for content. Hard to say, but probably irrelevant if they botch it in other aspects, like it seems they are...

I'm not sure I agree with you about WoT not being as detailed-obsessed as ASoIaF (though I do agree there is an obsession present in both series)...but everything else is spot on. The authors of both those series certainly underestimated the amount of books they would need to tell their stories. Jordan planned on 6 and ended up with 14 (though since the last couple were written by Sanderson there perhaps needs to be an asterisk there) and Martin originally envisioned the series as a trilogy and it's going to be at least 7 books by the time its done. Both of them could probably have benefitted from having harsher editors.

[Graeham]

Some of those leaked changes are bad, especially the Perrin one. Imaging fridging a female character in this day and age.

I think it's bad because it was an unnecessary change to his character's background, not because a female character died in the story.

[ProphetFlume]

It all comes down to hubris. They think they can improve the source material and the easiest way for them is to adapt it to current day trends. It's disrespectful imo, specially for a series that has so many powerful female characters.

Yeah considering the entire world is matriarchal from the lowliest tribes to the fanciest kingdoms and wasteland warriors, and for how much of a distinction there is between men and women in the story, you’d think it would be modern or unique enouh, anything else seems forced. I guess it’s to address trans girls the same way Y the Last Man did?

I do like some of the cast like the main three and nynaeve. When I saw nynaeve I was like “holy shit perfect” then realized it was Egwene, but the actual nynaeve is good too. However everything else I’ve seen has felt off, starting from the casting of Rosamund Pike.

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I'm not sure if the size of WoT would work for it or against it in a TV adaptation. On the one hand people will undoubtedly get bored; on the other hand, there seems to be a kind of boundless appetite for content. Hard to say, but probably irrelevant if they botch it in other aspects, like it seems they are...

In the end I think the cast are what keeps a show like that from going beyond 7 or 8 seasons, that itself is a long commitment for an actor, and to need it for so many people is a task. There’s plenty in the books that could be pruned but without knowing how long you’re gonna be around it would be almost impossible to have steady pacing, unless you try to have one great battle/boss per season, but then you end up feeling like Smallville or an anime. Which in fairness the books sometimes did, where each one took out…whatever the evil guys released at the end of book 1 were called.

[dwightyo39]

Never read the books, are they any good?

Everyone will have their own opinion of the series.

Personally I thought the story itself was good and had very interesting ideas. I just don't really care for Jordan and Sanderson's (read Mistborn and stormlight archive too) writing styles. Doesn't mean I dislike the worlds they create.

[Mace]

No you don't. You basing this of ONE sentence in the trailer. Which still could be taken out of context or is just there to keep the viewer a bit more out of the loop as in the tvshow you probably do not get all the exposition you get in the books.
This could be the one thing he said would be cleared in the end of the season to keep up the tension.

I think you are being naive to think that sentence is been taken out of context.

It is possible we are doing that, but in the current Hollywood entertainment climate? There is no chance, they are changing one of the most pro female tales in necessarily for just the sake of it - or to cause controversy -

No matter how you slice it, it’s unnecessary. The male and female gender roles are very important to the story, that is very pro female already seems utterly pointless and will take away from the uniqueness of this world just to homogenise it unnecessarily with everything else.

The beauty of fantasy books was how uniquely different their worlds were. And it stood out when they told a good story.

Changing the possibility of the dragon reborn’s gender is a fundamental change to the way this world works and a major point of the story. And completely destroys a powerful dynamic.

The funny thing is that it’s not anti male or female but is a powerful and unique expression. Why change it? For clicks?

This is a disappointing move. I can understand certain aspects tweaked for the screen. But this is changing a lot more than that and has nothing to do with adapting it fir the screen but everything to do with this stupid craziness going on - funnily in one of the most woke fantasy tales.


It’s totally unnecessary. Except that his world view doesn’t fit the current intersectional religion’s ethos so they have to change it to fit the new religion even though it is already

1. Super diverse
2. Super pro female and female empowering
3. You got body positive heroes and disabled ones
4. You have homosexuality (Red Ajah)
5. Nudity (Ariel)

Just not in quite the arrangement the current new religion wants it.

Are Amazon , Disney etc going to change everything that is written to fit their new religion now?

This is not about diversity nor equality, if it was this part would not have been changed. It’s about making everything fit one view.

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I think it's bad because it was an unnecessary change to his character's background, not because a female character died in the story.

They should have made Rand, Mat and Perrin female and altered the story to say something like, some women are born accessing the left side of the power which the last Lady Dragon, a lefty corrupted.


It’s essentially the same story, but now all the mains are female, Rhianda is Lesbian, because we won’t change Elayne, Min or Aviendha’s gender, and her first love interest is Egwene. So her sexuality is established straight away.

Marya Cauthon would be straight until she meets the Seanchan heiress.

Perri, short for Perriyana will meet her lover Faile and instead of cultural disapproval, it would be sexual orientation disapproval. Altho we could make Faile male.

Women who channel the left side of the one power are hunted down, and they are known as evil witches.


Actually it works don’t you think? It’s literally the same story, just no male heroes here.

The Dark One has to be male though, because he is evil all his pawns are male, because that’s what males should be, but his forsaken leaders are all female

This is the only way to show we have made progressive changes

[Skizzit]

I think it's bad because it was an unnecessary change to his character's background, not because a female character died in the story.

Is it that big of a change though? I could have sworn part of Perrin's backstory was that he was afraid of his size and strength and that he would accidently hurt people so he is always carful to be calm and gentle. This seems like just another way to get to that same point.

I dunno. I only read the first 6 books before getting kinda bored and have yet to return and it was a couple years ago. I am no expert or anything.

[Shadowferal]

Well...as it was already pointed out, Perrin's wife dying in the beginning...y'know because his eyes turning color, and wolves talking to him, and worried that he might be labeled a "dark friend" wasn't enough of a mindfuck for him.

[Mace]

WoT is, in a weird way, more interesting in summary than in detail. It has some cool world-building going on, and an array of very compelling players on the larger field of the overarching plot. But it also has a lot of overly detailed deep-dives into errant strands of half-formed mythologies (like e.g. the Great Hunt, or most of Tel'aran'rhiod) and a very, uh, "generous" overall pacing. It feels like a bit of a chore at times, and frustratingly drawn-out. 13 books is simply too much (and that's not counting the prequel) for what is really a fairly standard good-vs-evil narrative. As a result of that bloat, there's a few unfortunate tendencies that can be observed, like e.g. power inflation for characters.

It's not as detail-obsessed as the A Song of Ice and Fire books (GoT) but certainly there's a lot of uncompressed plot floating about that could perhaps have been condensed neatly without too much loss.

I actually use WoT when teaching narratology as an example of narrative running rampant, in contrast to e.g. The Lord of the Rings where epic scope can still be contained in a reasonable narrative length. I'm not sure if the size of WoT would work for it or against it in a TV adaptation. On the one hand people will undoubtedly get bored; on the other hand, there seems to be a kind of boundless appetite for content. Hard to say, but probably irrelevant if they botch it in other aspects, like it seems they are...

I love those deep dives. Especially when they are interesting and the things they are about alsonplay a role in the story.

I’m not in a hurry, and they inform the stage rather than a quick summary.

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That the Dragon reborn might be female I don’t Thom impacts the main plot at all if he turns out to be male anyway.

What it does is alter a unique and worthy facet of the narrative and ethos that added a compelling sense of urgency alarm and dread that underpin’s thing.

If he is male it is still terrifying because of Saidin, but the show might never have the time for the plot detail that makes the change to the prophecy as big a thing to it as it is to the book

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Face it, they’re never going to be able to flesh out all the key nuances.

Don’t get me wrong. I strongly disagree with the change. It was unnecessary from any vantage point save pandering to certain groups that have better ways to do so which the story makes provision. It also hurts the book or transitioning to the book where you will immediately notice the difference.
My oI will then realise the way the book did it was better and you will think less of the person who directed this change. Sometimes a lot less

[Rennadrel]

WoT is, in a weird way, more interesting in summary than in detail. It has some cool world-building going on, and an array of very compelling players on the larger field of the overarching plot. But it also has a lot of overly detailed deep-dives into errant strands of half-formed mythologies (like e.g. the Great Hunt, or most of Tel'aran'rhiod) and a very, uh, "generous" overall pacing. It feels like a bit of a chore at times, and frustratingly drawn-out. 13 books is simply too much (and that's not counting the prequel) for what is really a fairly standard good-vs-evil narrative. As a result of that bloat, there's a few unfortunate tendencies that can be observed, like e.g. power inflation for characters.

It's not as detail-obsessed as the A Song of Ice and Fire books (GoT) but certainly there's a lot of uncompressed plot floating about that could perhaps have been condensed neatly without too much loss.

I actually use WoT when teaching narratology as an example of narrative running rampant, in contrast to e.g. The Lord of the Rings where epic scope can still be contained in a reasonable narrative length. I'm not sure if the size of WoT would work for it or against it in a TV adaptation. On the one hand people will undoubtedly get bored; on the other hand, there seems to be a kind of boundless appetite for content. Hard to say, but probably irrelevant if they botch it in other aspects, like it seems they are...

Eh, yes and no. I think there's a lot of events that really shape certain characters, particularly the events surrounding I guess the main 5 characters, plus Moiraine and Lan being involved with them as well. Like I don't think that without Egwene's experience with the Seanchan, that she'd become the bold and commanding woman that she did. Same with Nynaeve and her escapades with the Forsaken. But the time it takes to get to those points feels really drawn out.

[Kreuger]

Will be interessting to read the reviews after today, reddit should have a few after the early screenings.

[Rennadrel]

Never read the books, are they any good?

I'd say the first 6 books are great, up to Lord of Chaos is awesome, but 7-9 aren't as good, then 10 and 11 suck complete ass because it feels like at least one of the story arcs that comprises both books could have been merged into one because it's dragged out so much. It kind of picks up again after that but the writing isn't the same as there's so little that Brandon Sanderson could use by the end as far as notes to construct a story and his pacing is less character focused and one that really enjoys action sequences. That said, I did enjoy A Memory of Light because it was what I kind of expected the most important aspect of the story to be.

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I love those deep dives. Especially when they are interesting and the things they are about alsonplay a role in the story.

I’m not in a hurry, and they inform the stage rather than a quick summary.

- - - Updated - - -

That the Dragon reborn might be female I don’t Thom impacts the main plot at all if he turns out to be male anyway.

What it does is alter a unique and worthy facet of the narrative and ethos that added a compelling sense of urgency alarm and dread that underpin’s thing.

If he is male it is still terrifying because of Saidin, but the show might never have the time for the plot detail that makes the change to the prophecy as big a thing to it as it is to the book

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Face it, they’re never going to be able to flesh out all the key nuances.

Don’t get me wrong. I strongly disagree with the change. It was unnecessary from any vantage point save pandering to certain groups that have better ways to do so which the story makes provision. It also hurts the book or transitioning to the book where you will immediately notice the difference.
My oI will then realise the way the book did it was better and you will think less of the person who directed this change. Sometimes a lot less

The amount of creative liberties that would have to be taken to make a woman the Dragon would absolutely ruin the story and would easily eliminate a bunch of characters and events.

[Mace]

I do feel too ma ny shows are having male roles somewhat diminished, and obscured - too much emphasis on the females even when they clearly don't need it (like in Jordan's book, you want to make it even more then take away from the males?) - a trend of a story where it's a male protagaonist but he ends up barely the star. Funny how this is the case in the Whell of Time book, b ut I don't mind it at all, I thoroughly enjoyed it, that's sometimes okay too.

But hey it can still be fun, sometimes the stars of the show aren't always the all consuming heroes,... especially if they're male - it may make it less fun for male viewers.. but I wonder how female viewers feel.. do they like their stars being the all consuming hero like male ones have been in the past? or do they prefer when everyone seems to be playing a near equal role . It really is different for men and women.. we like different things.

Watch the same movie and on average men would like different aspects than women would. At least that's my experience when I talk with people after the show.


They've been over emphasizing female roles too much, and often , well too often play them like male characters too - aggressive, vioelent, harsh - very unattractive - it just reminds me of a dude rule and makes me think it's doing nothing for women when women are foreced into male roles rather than having roles tailored to them.


Now, the women in WoT are phenomnal, some of them fight martially too, quite the exception, not hte norm, but they don't need to behave like women to be fromidable, and basically steal the show -- what i love about Jordan's books is how natural both gender's feel and the heroes whether male or female come off incredibly well.


now a driector comes in and feels he somehow needs to make women shine even more.. this just diminishes the males, make s it less fun or entertaining for us, and for what? You diminish a great story and might be the very reason why this doesn't do as well as it could have done. Most people are aware of what is going on and want something genuine.

But then they may feel Jodran's work was woke if the director made no alterations, because face it, as far as the so called woke movement is concerned, Jordsn's book ticks so many boxes. Which is why it was weird to change..

I just hope it doesn't end up feeling unnatural or super forced.

[Fuiking]

I know it's not on LOTR levels, but is there even any nudity or explicit sexual descriptions in the WoT books? All that comes to mind right now is a vague recolection of Perrin describing his gf/wife's fierce nature in bed.

Edit: Oh and of course Rand's women chasing after him, and feeling in them when the others are having sex and all that.

Also, this whole "time to see men naked now" is just the recycling of the garbage about "it's just not the same when it's men". They must've forgotten that GoT starts out, on the very first episode, with the Stark boys being clean shaved and having their six packs shown on screen. I supposed they also forgot that behind Daenerys, there's a big buffed dude ramming away, but it doesn't matter cause...... boobs? Christ...

There's just no pleasing this crowd. Here's arguably one of the most progressive pieces of fantasy - in the sense that the scales of power are reversed - and what do they do? Let's make it even MORE "progressive". What a bunch of insipid, hypocritical fools.

Theres a few ... references.. here and there which suggests sex, but they're super subtle and might fly over ones head.

[Mace]

Now not every movie or show is like that, but recently .. stuff from Disney and Amazon seems to be far more like that than not. It's too much..

some may argue it's redressing the balance. Maybe, but every show they commission with their new mandate? It's not even the mandate that's the problem but they are going overboard I think

[Biomega]

Theres a few ... references.. here and there which suggests sex, but they're super subtle and might fly over ones head.

I mean, Rand does get girls pregnant so... idk how subtle and unnoticeable the sex might be But yeah, GoT this is not. Not even close.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Theres a few ... references.. here and there which suggests sex, but they're super subtle and might fly over ones head.

There’s also some rather explicit parts involving sex like rands spear maiden girlfriend running off naked into the snow and then then making a snow hut and banging it in.

[Corvus]

Someone really doesn't like Amazon/Bezos (valid) but also doesn't like fantasy (not valid.)

Advanced screenings have happened and information is coming out. Yup, Rand and Egwene have sex in the first ep, Perrin is married (and has no chemistry of his wife) and then accidentally kills her during the trolloc attack, there is no Narg, no fevered revelation by Tam that Rand was born outside the Two Rivers, the Manetheren story isn't told in TR but shifted to ep 2, no Thom in TR, they skip Baelron/meeting Min and go straight to Shadar Logoth.

[ProphetFlume]

Why would rand and egwene have sex?

[WoWGoneBad]

So with regards to the sexual nature of men and women in the WoT series, there are a lot of scenes with the Aiel where the Wise Ones would be naked from the waist up inside their Tents. Egwene during her time there learning to become a Wise One had a hard time adjusting to this. Also Avhenda I believe also had to travel to Ruehdean naked or had a period of time where she was completely naked.

There was also the time Avhendia was naked with Rand at one point. The Aes Sedai have to go into ter'angreal to become Aes Sedai from Accepted. When becoming the Amerlin Seat the Aes Sedai is stripped naked as well. When they Accepted and Novices are spanked they are naked from waist down. Then we have the Black Tower where most of the men hardly wore shirts during its building, and during their training. There were quite a few scenese where their nakedness was in full detail but so was the womans lol

Then we have Grendall who had a plethora of naked men and women under her spell to do her bidding. And every time we were brought to her palaces or locales we were given details of the naked men and women there. So yeah there is a heavy amount of nudity going on through the I would say first 8 or so books.

With Balthamel, yes he was brought back as a Woman but this was not by the Wheel's doing. It was the Dark One who made him a woman as punishment for his failure and to infiltrate the Aes Sedai. He actually killed a few after the first battle of the White Tower where Elida came to power.

With regards to the race types and diversity for diversity sake, well Rand can be a Dark person because of his Aiel blood, Perrin it would make some sense as he is a Blacksmith and works a Forge all day. Mat is the only one where it comes down to what was described in the books. Personally, I never care for what race a character is if they bring the story to life in the way the story was told.

With the sexual content, to be frank, the series does not really need or require it in most instances. If it is there is nakedness, if it is in the right context then fine let it be.