The gods are 3d printed? (9.2)

[Kathranis]

From a narrative standpoint, I think the fundamental idea of the First Ones is to reintroduce what they lost when they decided to make the Titans and their Cosmic equivalents active players in the story.

In the early days, the Titans were essentially presented as the primal creator deities of the WoW universe. They were mysterious, had long since disappeared, and the remnants of their culture was scattered around Azeroth and other worlds we discovered. A single living Titan remained, and he was framed as the archvillain of the series.

After defeating the Old Gods and with Sargeras and the Legion next up on the chopping block, they needed new avenues to explore to create cosmic-scale conflicts, so they started planting the seeds for what became the war between the six cosmic forces. Which I actually think is pretty cool, FWIW.

They lightly retconned Chronicle as being written in-universe from the Titan perspective rather than an infallible developer bible, and have introduced further unreliable narrator elements with Grimoire offering opposing interpretations while not committing to either interpretation being correct, introducing a new higher level pantheon of creator deities.

The First Ones are essentially filling the role that the Titans originally did: mysterious ancient creator deities that are long gone, with facilities and relics left behind on the worlds we visit. I'm gonna go ahead and call it now: "Zereth ____" is going to be the new "Uld____." There will be a Zereth facility on every cosmic plane we explore, inhabited by automa. Zereth Vitae, Zereth Lucis, etc.

There's probably going to be six of them, one for each of the cosmic forces. Most or all of them will be dead, but there might be a final one still living that will be the new archvillain of the universe, maybe the creator of the Void or even the Fel (consider that we don't have a proper Fel pantheon, only Sargeras the Fallen Titan of Order).

[Feanoro]

It really was a great tool for them to switch to perspective based lore for things like Chronicles.

Hey, if you're fine with false advertising, go for it.

[Chend]

"The First Ones built the Universe AS FAR AS WE KNOW"

I.e., this is PR talk for "WHEN THIS GETS RETCONNED LIKE THE CHRONICLES, DON'T QQ ON REDDIT THIS TIME BECAUSE WE WARNED YOU."

Well where do we know it from? From childhood tales told on Azeroth? No, the first ones were unknown to us, until recently. If we know this, then we know it from the people in the Shadowlands or from Zereth Mortis. And shouldn't they know? Why would the info be inaccurate? At the very least everything that is known right now was made by them. Why would they know about things like the Light and fel magic and pretend they made it along with everything else, when it is not true?

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Then what wee need is more examples that Order isn't necessarily good. Like they did in the mag'har intro quests, where we were shown that Light can be a bitch too.

For example, in Ulduar the Constellar was ready to reboot our asses because things didn't go as the Titans planned.

1. It's not the Light. It's the Draenei.
2. The Draenei are right, the orcs deserved to be wiped out.
3. Algalon just did what made sense to him.

[UndedoKoleda]

I could you link you the pic of the Chronicles clearly saying that the Universe was created from the Light and Void clashing and you'd have no way of countering this aside from citing that moment where Blizzard said that Chronicles is written from the Titans' perspective.

So yours is a non-argument. We don't have the full picture. AS FAR AS WE KNOW, based on what the Broker said in that book that only 20 people read worldwide, the First Ones created everything. The Titans however believed that the Light and Void actually created everything and their view is also acknowledged Canonically. And so you are wrong in saying that it is FACTUAL that the First Ones are the makers of all; it is not. Nowhere is it presented as an absolute, undeniable truth that the First Ones created everything.

But just think about it, if all that about the First Ones is true, it means that the Dwarves, Gnomes and Humans know more than their creators - the Titans, who are presumably ancient and have traveled through countless worlds, but somehow never got a clue of who their own creators are. How cool is that!

[Varodoc]

Well where do we know it from? From childhood tales told on Azeroth? No, the first ones were unknown to us, until recently. If we know this, then we know it from the people in the Shadowlands or from Zereth Mortis. And shouldn't they know? Why would the info be inaccurate? At the very least everything that is known right now was made by them. Why would they know about things like the Light and fel magic and pretend they made it along with everything else, when it is not true?

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1. It's not the Light. It's the Draenei.
2. The Draenei are right, the orcs deserved to be wiped out.
3. Algalon just did what made sense to him.

False, it is not a First One who said that, it is an AUTOMATON created by the First Ones. This distinction is inconceivably massive.

Being a creation of the First Ones, the Broker might be misled (by his nature) into thinking that his makers are greater than what they actually are. Being biased, in other words, he might have given false or even fabricated information.

A demon of the Legion might be led to believe and claim that Sargeras is almighty, even though we know that's not the case.

And there's still the point of view of the Titans that has every right to be taken into account. Wherein it is actually Light and Void, the two fundamental forces, that created the Cosmos.

I for one give far more credit to the Titans, who have actually OBSERVED, WATCHED OVER, and PROTECTED the Cosmos for countless eons, than some random glorified robot who might wank his creators. Out of pride or devotion.

[Chend]

The problem is that Chronicles is written from the perspective of the Titans and their servants, and as far as they know, that's how the universe was created

Then the entire book is worthless.

It wasn't written from the point of view of the Titans. It was written by the point of view of Blizzard.

Then they changed their mind and changed lore and now they're giving you the changed version.

They'll write a book from the perspective of the First Ones and charge you again, and then write a book from the perspective of whoever they make up after that and then charge you for a book from their perspective.

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False, it is not a First One who said that, it is an AUTOMATON created by the First Ones. This distinction is inconceivably massive.

It is incredibly irrelevant. It is merely the tool Blizzard uses to tell us the new shit they just came up with.

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There's no evidence they created the Universe.

They literally said that in the video.

[rhorle]

I for one give far more credit to the Titans, who have actually OBSERVED, WATCHED OVER, and PROTECTED the Cosmos for countless eons, than some random glorified robot who might wank his creators. Out of pride or devotion.

But then shouldn't the titans be dismissed because they have their own reasons for their views? Most of what we know about the titans comes from learning stuff from things the Titans created. A few of the playable races are even titan creations made into flesh. You are dismissing everyting else as biased perspectives while ignoring how most of what we know about the titans is biased.

We only directly encountered them in Legion and even then it wasn't all that informative because they have to rest and recharge.

[Chend]

Since the Brokers are automatons created by the First Ones, it makes sense that the creature would be biased and have a partial view.

That's a cop-out. It's a free pass to change whatever you want and say it's not a contradiction, it's just that the source that told you about these things was unreliable.

Ok, then stop having us tell us these things by unreliable sources. Just tell us what is what, and then don't change it a year later because you think you have a cooler idea.

This is why your lore is shit. This is why your story is shit. This is why fans feel like you are disrespecting them.

[Engal]

Then the entire book is worthless.

It wasn't written from the point of view of the Titans. It was written by the point of view of Blizzard.

Then they changed their mind and changed lore and now they're giving you the changed version.

They'll right a book from the perspective of the First Ones and charge you again, and then write a book from the perspective of whoever they make up after that and then charge you for a book from their perspective.

This, and this is the main problem of the Story actually.

A certain lead narrative developer got the heritage of Metzen, and wanted to create his own fanfiction, but the story of Metzen got in his way, so he became insanely creative to retcon it to death, but not creative enough to keep it interesting and clever. ( and coherent )

I'm still uneasy reading Grimoire of Shadowlands, the part when a broker laugh at a Tauren having Chronicles saying that she is a fool trusting such a story, because it's not written has how a broker would react to such a thing, but more as a point of vue from a writer on the work of another writer, laughing about what was written and telling that his story is better. Someone's head got too big for its own shoulders.

[Aresk]

The Broker is a creation of the First Ones and thus its opinion is instantly dismissed as biased and partial. Of course an automaton of the First Ones would think that these creatures made everything.

The fact is that there are at least 3 Cosmic forces that do not seek to uphold any cycle; instead, they seek to destroy and consume everything in their own way.

The Light seeks to "purify" everything (based on the visions the Prime Naaru showed Yrel), the Demons have always been a force of destruction, and the Void Lords obviously want to consume all of Reality.

Why do the Void Lords "obviously" want to consume all of Reality? If you're going to discuss bias, it seems odd to make claims about something being obvious when we've never even interacted with a true void lord and haven't seen any indication to their motives. We know that the Old Gods seek to corrupt Azeroth, and they're servants of the Void Lords, but everything else has come from other sources (e.g. the titans). Given what the titans don't know, I'd hesitate to say that actors we've never seen have obvious goals, particularly with most villains recently having very obscure motivations (e.g. Zovaal).

[Engal]

everything else has come from other sources (e.g. the titans).

And the Titans knew it from Sargeras who learned it from.. Dreadlords.

We can't even take it seriously cause it might be an insane mindgame.

[Chend]

But then shouldn't the titans be dismissed because they have their own reasons for their views? Most of what we know about the titans comes from learning stuff from things the Titans created. A few of the playable races are even titan creations made into flesh. You are dismissing everyting else as biased perspectives while ignoring how most of what we know about the titans is biased.

We only directly encountered them in Legion and even then it wasn't all that informative because they have to rest and recharge.

This.

If Blizzard presents us with this, the only response, that makes sense, is to say, give us the real story and not some story, that will turn out to be false in a year, just so you have a free pass to change whatever you like.

They just want to be able to rehash ideas infinitely and be able to pass them off as the new thing. Why are they even called the First Ones? In 5 years they'll introduce "the really First Ones", who will be the exact same idea. It's just a trick to pull more and more "new ideas" out of nowhere. If you have no new ideas, just stop. Make a new game.

[Varodoc]

They literally said that in the video.

This is incorrect, what the employee said in the video is that "as far as we know, the First One made everything".

Why do the Void Lords "obviously" want to consume all of Reality? If you're going to discuss bias, it seems odd to make claims about something being obvious when we've never even interacted with a true void lord and haven't seen any indication to their motives. We know that the Old Gods seek to corrupt Azeroth, and they're servants of the Void Lords, but everything else has come from other sources (e.g. the titans). Given what the titans don't know, I'd hesitate to say that actors we've never seen have obvious goals, particularly with most villains recently having very obscure motivations (e.g. Zovaal).

False, we have seen first-hand how the Void Lords act in the Three Sisters comic. All they care about is driving sister against sister, wife against husband, spreading chaos and division everywhere.

We have also interacted with a Void Lord in-game; Dimensius the All-Devouring, the Void Lord who manifested in the physical world, but in a weakened state. That was enough to devour the world of the Ethereals. Dimensius went on to clearly state that "In time, all will be devoured!"

All Void-users in the franchise are evil except for the Ren'dorei, the Locus-Walker, and maybe some priests from the Conclave. Everyone else is an evil monster.

The Janitor's motivations are incredibly obvious since he literally states on-screen what he wants. He wants to remake reality because he wants everyone to serve him, to make up for the millennia in which he had to serve. So, world domination. There's nothing obscure about his goals.

[rhorle]

If Blizzard presents us with this, the only response, that makes sense, is to say, give us the real story and not some story, that will turn out to be false in a year, just so you have a free pass to change whatever you like.

There is no real story. I feel like you, and others, are getting to caught up in disliking something. It is tainting your view. There is nothing wrong with finding out that things you have been told might have been biased in favor of those it was told by. That doesn't mean it isn't a "real" story. It just means it isn't the only one out there in a greater universe.

History is written by the victors is an apt quote from real life that applies here.

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The Janitor's motivations are incredibly obvious since he literally states on-screen what he wants. He wants to remake reality because he wants everyone to serve him. So, world domination. There's nothing obscure about his goals.

So you mean like when the Titan's wanted to remake Azeroth because what they wanted wasn't going to happen? So far every cosmic force has been presented as the same. Wanting to impose their will and idea of things on others. We know the story from the Titan's perspective because that was what heavily influenced the narrative. It doesn't mean others are inherently evil for wanting to do the same thing the Titan's did.

All we, the playable characters and center point for lore, are trying to do is survive and keep the status qou. If the titans decided to wipe us out you can bet we would suddenly be allying with a different cosmic force and what is "Evil" and what is "Good" would suddenly change.

[Chend]

There is nothing wrong with finding out that things you have been told might have been biased in favor of those it was told by. .

Yes, there is. It's a cop-out, used by shitty storytellers, that have no plan and just make shit up as they go along.

[rhorle]

Yes, there is. It's a cop-out, used by shitty storytellers, that have no plan and just make shit up as they go along.

There is nothing wrong with using it as a story telling device. It doesn't make a story bad just for using it. There is a reason why "unreliable narrator" is a term after all lol. The only bad thing surrounding it was how Chronicles was originally marketed before the bias was revealed. Most stories are just made up as the writers go along. They have notes and general outlines for what they want to happen. But the details get written as they go.

[DatToffer]

1. It's not the Light. It's the Draenei.
2. The Draenei are right, the orcs deserved to be wiped out.
3. Algalon just did what made sense to him.

1. Lightforged + Naaru. Thus, Light forces.
2. Absolutely not the point.
3. Exactly my point. It made sense from an Order representative point of view.

So yours is a non-argument.

I could you link you the pic of the Chronicles clearly saying that the Universe was created from the Light and Void clashing and you'd have no way of countering this aside from citing that moment where Blizzard said that Chronicles is written from the Titans' perspective.

That's not how it works. The Light Void clash thing is obsolete because now we have the First ones. The First ones will be obsolete once we get something new.
Maybe that new something will be a mixture of both. Like what is said in the Shadowlands books : At first there were six forces in strife and then blablabla there was balance and poof the universe.

Until then (as far as we know) the First ones made the universe. That's the newest info we got.

[Feanoro]

@Chend @Varodoc Some people gladly defend new writers shitting on the old material. I leave it to you whether it's worth arguing.

[Stormspark]

@Chend @Varodoc Some people gladly defend new writers shitting on the old material. I leave it to you whether it's worth arguing.

Yep, Danuser basically retconned all of Warcraft and turned in into his personal fanfic. The sad part is, I think he doesn't even realize how much of a no talent hack he is. He actually thinks his shit writing is good (it wouldn't be good even if it was a new IP he was starting up and was its own thing), and is so high on his own farts that he thinks people will accept this shit as "going back to Warcraft 3".

[Myradin]

@Chend @Varodoc Some people gladly defend new writers shitting on the old material. I leave it to you whether it's worth arguing.

There's a difference between unreliable narrator and disrespecting what was written before. A story evolving over time can be interesting, provided the changes that occur don't directly contradict what was actually experienced in the story, or are obviously shoe-horned in (like the jailor stuff). A new explanation should be able to fit with the old explanation, with reasoning why the old explanation also made sense.

Warcraft has had a bad tendency on relying on an absolute narrator for stuff like Chronicle and the WC3 manual, telling the reader far more than they need to know. A lot of this was done to sound cool at the time. Sageras corrupting the Eredar, or the Eredar corrupting him, doesn't matter to WC3's story in the slightest, yet it was included in the manual. This isn't much better than an unreliable narrator, as making the story 'complete' for 'completeness sake' is just inviting there to be contradications over time.