If you could rewrite TBC lore, what would you do with Kael and Illiidan?

[huth]

I think the deeprun tram is less sci-fi than a crystal space ship that can travel to alternate dimensions.
Or some "Manaforges" sucking energies out of the Atmosphere and putting them in translucent boxes.

Vanilla Gnome / Dwarf stuff in Vanilla is mostly steampunk, whereas a lot of the Draenei / Naaru stuff is pretty close bordering on Sci-fi.

No, it's considerably more. The latter two are magic. The tram is technological. People just got this misconception that SciFi = space, Fantasy = Medieval. There's nothing particularly futuristic about the 'space' ships in TBC or even Legion anyway. Heck, the Legion flies around in what's essentially giant stone monoliths and function more like magically levitated buildings.

Meanwhile, (pre-Disney) Star Wars is at most Science Fantasy, and in large parts more Fantasy than SciFi, because the story focus is on a bunch of magic wielders fighting one another.

[Bali]

Yea had a similar thought with how everything has played out with this lore. Undead and NE don’t truly belong in the factions they are in, maybe a neutral/friendly position in some locations but having them separated would of gave them more unique characterizations and some decisions would be more true to their nature. Could of had multiple grand conflicts, on Azeroth, with these four clashing away at different interests but nope it’s almost always both factions marching for the same cause while hating each other. Oh well.

Yes I feel the same way. None of the elves truly feel like they belong in either the horde or the alliance with the exception of the high elevs that remained loyal to the alliance and the void elves. The blood elves should have distrust for both the horde and the alliance, night elves -even tho they are less xenophobic after fighting the legion alongside the horde and the alliance- should remain independent rather than bowing to the king of stormwind. And then there are the undead who spread the plague wherever they go which surely wouldn't sit well with the nature respecting races of the horde.

[Kralljin]

No, it's considerably more. The latter two are magic. The tram is technological. People just got this misconception that SciFi = space, Fantasy = Medieval.

Considering we had rudimentary technology in Warcraft since Warcraft 2, i'd say you're missing the point.

Heck, we had Submarines in Warcraft 2.

The latter two are magic.

No, it's also technology, it's not just magic.
That's why you have Bloodelf engineers in almost any hijacked Naaru facility, not just mages.

The Dark Portal is magic, the Xenedar flying to Argus is certainly also technological.

[huth]

Considering we had rudimentary technology in Warcraft since Warcraft 2, i'd say you're missing the point.

Heck, we had Submarines in Warcraft 2.

No, it's also technology, it's not just magic.
That's why you have Bloodelf engineers in almost any hijacked Naaru facility, not just mages.

The Dark Portal is magic, the Xenedar flying to Argus is certainly also technological.

It literally runs on magic. None of them work without magic. Yes, the Blood Elves employ engineers, but that doesn't preclude it from being magic. Engineer means they have an academic approach to it, not that it isn't magic. They have golem engineers, too. If you want to claim those as technological, then you're just declaring magic a part of technology and the entire discussion becomes meaningless, since there's no practical difference between SciFi and Fantasy at that point. Which they are already dangerously close to anyway. People need to get off the idea that there's anything wrong with mixing them, since doing so is almost unavoidable with how little difference there is.

The tram is vastly more technological. And yes, we've had flying machines and submarines all the way back in WC2. That doesn't really help your point, it just shows that it has been part of the franchise long before WoW.

[Kralljin]

The tram is vastly more technological. And yes, we've had flying machines and submarines all the way back in WC2. That doesn't really help your point, it just shows that it has been part of the franchise long before WoW.

It does, it shows that technology which actually has grounds within reality has been a part of Warcraft since WC2.

Interdimensional spaceships aren't something that sounds like it is grounded in reality.

[huth]

It does, it shows that technology which actually has grounds within reality has been a part of Warcraft since WC2.

Interdimensional spaceships aren't something that sounds like it is grounded in reality.

Which has what exactly to do with whether something is SciFi or Fantasy? Both are Speculative Fiction. Neither is fully realistic by definition.

[McNeil]

I may not be the best writer but I would have liked to cover these things (also means retconning some stuff that Blizzard did):

- Karazhan would be a huge dungeon in Classic and lead to TBC, the Twisting Nether is the final raid (which was actually a planned raid)
- The only draenei are the ones from WC3 as the broken, the Alliance gets high elves while the Horde gets ogres. Blood elves are neutral
- The reason why Illidan is rallying his armies all throughout Outland is because he needs to build up an army to both defend himself from Kil'jaeden (who is after him after his failures in WC3) and to eventually strike back at him
- This also means that Illidan is making a lot of decisions that don't go well with the other natives, like recruiting more and more fel orcs and using demons despite that the draenei and mag'har despise them
- Eventually Illidan sees the draenei as a weakness that needs to be eradicated because in his view its going to be for a better cause
- Akama betrays Illidan a lot earlier than in live, so we see him more around doing stuff in Outland with us and trying to rally all draenei tribes
- Both Kael and Vashj start to doubt Illidans actions, expecting him to fail because he is acting the same during the War of the Ancients and WC3
- Vashj secretly plans to use all the waters from Zangarmarsh to create another Well of Eternity for Azshara, who would become a major threat in the future
- Kael is a lot more involved throughout Outland and the blood elf starting zones, where he is hinting at how desperate his people are becoming and that he is secretly gaining support from the Burning Legion, who is providing him the fel energy he needs to feed his people
- Eventually a combination of Kael's traumas and his addiction to magic causes him to siphon all possible energy from Outland, even if it means destroying the planet. This also means that characters like Varo'then and Rommath will leave him behind and plan to take him down with the aid of the draenei
- Continuing from Classic is also the story of the Ashbringer where supposedly Alexandros' second son is in Outland, where they continue with a legendary quest chain where Darion will retrieve a purified Ashbringer
- This is mostly leading up to WotLK, where at some point Darion falls to Arthas and becomes a death knight
- Maiev is also a lot more involved and has a quest chain where she again wants to hunt down Illidan

[Kralljin]

Which has what exactly to do with whether something is SciFi or Fantasy? Both are Speculative Fiction. Neither is fully realistic by definition.

A Submarine or subway seems a lot more grounded than a spaceship that is able to travel to different dimensions.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

*Admittedly it was Kael who declared this, so under his rule the top body of government would be mere prince, which is also kind of weird.

Not really. Quel'thelas would just be called a principality rather than a kingdom.

No space ships.

In fact, no sci fi elements at all.

I thought that the Spelljammer space fantasy stuff was cool, though the Draenei spaceships need to be really hard to produce and repair (Exodar was fixed as of a Cata novel and theoretically could have taken us to Argus) to stop the audience from asking why the Draenei don't make more spaceships, because once you introduce the Vindicaar (the first onscreen depiction of a functional Draenei spaceship in the hands of the protagonists) you can't just forget about it, though that can be avoided by simply introducing working spaceships after all stories on Azeroth have been resolved, so we don't get stupid stuff like the Vindicaar sitting out the BFA war.

[Al Gorefiend]

I would have changed the new races to be Draenei and Ogres and Blood Elves stayed villains to both factions

[AcidicSyn]

I'm on board with the either removal of or at least drastically lowering the presence of any/all scifi elements. Magic portals fine, laser beams not so much. Tech stuff is also fine in clockwork, steampunk, fel-industrial, etc styles.

Story wise, I'm no writer so I don't have a big grand redesign of the story, but I would definitely not have villian batted kael'thas. I love Liadrin and wouldn't want her to not exist as a result, but I would have preferred Kael remained loyal to his people.

[Aresk]

I would emphasize Illidan's fear and conflict with the Legion much more. I'd also work at differentiating Illidan's forces from the Legion's, given how similar they appear throughout (with the Legion having used fel orcs in the past, and now Illidan using them, both sides deploying demons, etc.). Essentially divide the war into more concrete factions, with the Burning Legion, the Illidari, and the Survivors of Outland allied with the Horde/Alliance. Put conflict between the three more prevalent throughout the zones, with often the same questlines requiring us to deal with both enemy factions. Have us intercept Illidari missives that reveal more of Illidan's motivations and actions throughout, possibly with scenes where we play as Illidari forces so that we can see more of that story. Really drive Illidan's worry that Kil'jaeden is coming for him, his need to have strength to face them down, and his unwillingness to tolerate anyone who doesn't do things his way (e.g. sending blood elves to subjugate Shattrath). Talk up that Illidan has something big in motion and that the war is almost over, and use that to drive the assault on the Black Temple (lining up with the Sargerite Keystone later).

Meanwhile, I'd focus a bit more on Kael's connection with the Horde (similarly with Alliance and Akama and the draenei--retaining their native race of Draenor status from previous games--but that's off-topic). Have Horde loyalties put a strain on his relationship with Illidan--given how Kael's focus is for his people--and have him grow increasingly paranoid and mad as he tries to stay in the good graces of two opposing factions. Ultimately the showdown in the Eye with him would occur after Illidan--frustrated with Kael's fence-sitting--withdraws his support and deprives Kael of the energy he so needs to maintain his stability; the Horde (or Alliance for that faction) would be knocking on his door trying to confront him, and Kael would mostly just see all his former allies as enemies. He would escape the first conflict, retreat to Quel'danas, and attempt to reactivate the Sunwell in an attempt to gain the power to strike down his enemies (who at this point would be anyone not a blood elf), ultimately being the final boss of Sunwell Plateau. In the raid he'd be taken down and imprisoned (not killed), with the blood elves who opposed him seeking to heal his fractured psyche. Most importantly, he'd never attempt to side with the Legion, given that plotline didn't particularly go anywhere for him and isn't even really addressed throughout his "redemption" in Shadowlands. The plot would end with Blood Elves in a different but still more sinister place than they ended up in TBC, still leeching magic off whatever they can to survive and keeping their characterization more inline with where it was at the beginning.

[Diaphin]

For Illidan I don't there's a real need to re-write him, just show more of his arc and give a stronger impression that he's opposed to the Legion and doesn't want to fight us, but rather feels we're not up to the task of doing what must be done to stop the Legion completely. Basically, show more of his Legion characterization in TBC, and perhaps more of the instability he was having in dealing with his new quasi-demonic nature. For Kael, I'd probably do more of an extensive re-write and not make him shift loyalties from Illidan to Kil'jaeden quite as he did. Instead, I'd probably go the route of the volatile Arcane and Fel energies getting to him, causing him to behave erratically and increasingly unhinged - in the end, sort of going off on his own tangent where he still opposed the Legion, but also ended up opposing almost everyone including his own people. Would've been interesting to see his generals like Pathaleon and others turn against him the same way Voren'thal did - and them being the agents that were resigned to killing him so as to stop endangering the remaining Sindorei and soiling the Sunstrider dynasty further.

Wasn't the story in the Illidan novel, that basically all of his followers where basically doing what they want while Illidan was too focussed on how to stop the legion, while at the same time Kil'jaeden deliberately bated the Alliance and Horde into conflict with his forces? Instead of making him some high and mighty overlord, I probably would have depicted him as rather secretive and withdrawn with it coming off like he has turned insane, because we don't know anything about his plan and even formerly loyal allies to his are opposed to him.

When it comes to Kael, I probably would have depicted him as more manipulated by his own advisers, maybe even Vashj as well and not being as much in control of things in Outland as it seems to be at first. Like, in WC3 his characterization was basically of somebody who well-intentioned and brave, but who isn't really experienced in how to leads and kind of desperate, so that he ends up being easily manipulated. Like, his interactions with Vashj always seemed like she was deliberately trying to cause a split between Kael'thas and the alliance forces to recruit him for Illidan. Like, his later characterization as this arrogant maniac is just weird when he was very humble in WC3 TFT. Maybe even just make Vashj in general the legion traitor, I think it wouldn't be so out of character. She always seemed ambitious and cunning and I think her turning to the Legion because Kil'jaeden basically offered her the same deal once offered to Azshara and the opportunity to overthrow her wouldn't come as much out of nowhere as Kael'thas turn. Hell, we don't even had confirmation that Azshara actually send them and it seems strange that she would offer support to Illidan who has proven himself a traitor over and over again, so maybe it could have turned out that Vashj and her factions were turncloaks from the beginning who were dissatisfied with the dealings Azshara made and their lives under water and rather wanted to use Illidan for another shot to join the legion and be turned into demons instead. I mean, the whole Naga plotline in Outlands was basically just there and not that relevant to anything, wouldn't it be more awesome when it turned out that water collection and slave operation was just a massive scheme to get as many potential sacrifices for a demonic portal as possible right under Illidans nose?

I probably also would have introduced Teron Gorefiend as a Horde hero who is willing to rejoin. He always came off to me like he was that one former warlock turned Death Knight who was actually loyal to the Horde during Beyond the Dark Portal. Have him be an old Orc hero who is willing to return to serve the Horde once again.

[Bali]

Hold on guys, I get that you dont like spaceships but without them, how would the draenei have escaped from Argus to Draenor? As seen with the Dark Portal, opening a portal from one planet to another is not an easy feat.

[Zuben]

Not really. Quel'thelas would just be called a principality rather than a kingdom.

I guess that's better than a kingdom with a permanent regent lord. I think they need to adjust Quel'thalas's governmental system, since even as there are dynasties of regents in other works, it doesn't feel right for the title implies a temporary state of affairs.

After running around in Novigrad in Witcher 3 I feel particular about hierarch. Hierarch Lor'themar Theron. It's a title for religious authority, which initially feels something more familiar with Alliance's worship of the Light, but hear me out: In doing away with the system of monarchy Quel'thalas needs to base the new authority on something. Peoples' mandate is something, sure, but a democratically elected president feels out of place in a fantasy setting. So rather than the people maybe base the position on duty: That of protecting the Sunwell, the holiest site of the sin'dorei. Hierarch would be a suitable title for the person responsible for this, and their duties also include governance of the land and its populace. Much like it was for Hemmelfart.

I didn't suggest a council because I kind of hate councils. Rommath, Halduron and Liadrin are already responsible for their respective branches of Silvermoon sub-factions, I don't see why they'd need to be in equal standing with Lor'themar.

[prazulsatlaret]

Kael doesn't go full demon psycho. During " The Eye " he cryptically remarks that he is not the enemy, and that by stopping Illidan we are dooming the whole world. Kael and Vashj were using evil methods to get as much power, as swiftly as possible, in preparation for the last war against the Legion.

The Illidan fight stays the same, with Illidan remarking that we don't understand ( Maiev doesn't give a F and lands the killing blow anyway ) and that we have sentenced Azeroth to destruction with his dying breath.

During Sunwell Plateau we find out that Illidan was doing his Legion shit. As we defeat Kil'Jaeden and race back to the Warden Tomb to get to Illidan, we find out that while Kil'jaeden did intend to brute force his way through the Sunwell, he also sent a Plan B team to claim Illidan's body and prepare it for the Legion's second invasion.

Illidan's body can be kept MIA until Legion, when it is used to embody Sargeras during the Nighthold Raid. The Sargerite Keystone was hidden by him SOMEWHERE, and when Sargeras takes over his body, he gains Illidan's memories and finds it. But the Sargerite Keystone requires a MASSIVE source of power to use, so he recruits the Nightborne to his side to use their Well. He then uses it during Nighthold to open a portal to Argus. We beat the holy hell out of SargIllidan and Sargeras gets expelled from the body, losing a chunk of his soul/power.

Patch .2 is the Tomb of Sargeras, as planned. The Legion doesn't invade with spaceships because that's stupid. Instead, the Sargerite Keystone is used to bring in the big guns. Kil'jaeden AND Archimonde make up the final boss ( ala Twin Emperors from AQ, they share HP ) and it's completely crazy, a triple threat between Velen, Kil'jaeden and Archimonde for the WWE Argus Heavyweight Championship. The ending of the fight has the two teleport us to Argus, maybe in the former Draenei capital. Sargeras is still wounded so he can't participate.

The raid ends with Velen sending both Archimonde and Kil'jaeden into the afterlife.

The Legion has lost its greatest generals, Sargeras is reeling and wounded from being 'killed' in Illidan's body in Nighthold, and we invade Argus to put an end to the Legion machine for good.

Turns out Sargeras was using a part of his gigantic power to make Demons 'resurrect' on Argus. In his weakened state and with the Titans' help, we manage to win a standstill, and the Titans are ALL locked inside the Pantheon Seat. The weakened Pantheon and Sargeras are locked in an unending fight which no one can win.

BFA proceeds as usual I guess, but no sword stabbing/azerite/WOONS.

What happens to Illidan? Good question. Once he realises that Sargeras wasn't a crazy bastard and that there's something far worse out there ( The Void Lords ) he fucks off into the cosmos to find a way to stop them OR he and Khadgar stay in Azeroth, neutral ( Illidan doesn't give a F about the Night Elves anyway ) and try to find a way to stop the Void.

[Orby]

Seeing how cinematics and gameplay is handled today, I would just give Illidan more screen time. I feel like the team of Vashj. Illidan and Kael were kind of just there as bosses, you never felt their presence in game like you did the Lich King an expansion later. Except maybe Kael I feel Kael was handled way better than the rest of them. Although at the same time I wasnt a fan of Kael'thas turning into a bad guy and betraying Illidan, after feeling his determination in Warcraft3: The Frozen Throne I wanted to root for the guy, the man was a victim himself, turning him into a villain urked me so much. :P