we should not accept chore content without alternatives

[Goatfish]

Who and when? I'm not asking to be an asshole, I'm genuinely curious.

Maybe PvE you can get away without gear and stuff, but in PvP you can't. The lowest increase I've seen on a conduit upgrade is 1%? So if you upgrade from a 180 something to a 252 thats like, at least 10% difference. Thats kinda big. But also, PvPers only get 1-2 conduits from PvP, the rest have to come from shit nobody wants to do. I can tell you literally every single PvPer attempted at some point this expac to prove they're good enough not to need them, and caved in or quit.

The argument "its not even a big deal" is only said by people who don't have them, obviously to justify their laziness.

Again, if you actually read the post I linked a thread directly archived on this very site. There was a guild in WOTLK called <Undergeared> that specifically went out to clear raids wearing nothing but blues. I assure you it is most likely still possible, it is just a more difficult path that most people don't want to mess with. Here is the link again: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-gt-Chronicles

Rules of the game

The philosophy is that we do not use epic items in our ventures. This means that we cannot use epic gear, epic enchants, or enchants that would require an epic item to be disenchanted. We cannot enchant our gear with enchants requiring Abyss Crystals, and we cannot use epic gems.

As far as PvP goes. I have long been a proponent that PvP should be run like GW2. Everyone has the same base stats depending on spec/class, you get free option of different gear sets that are all the same ilvl. PvP should not have a gear component to the degree that it currently exists, and anyone who thinks otherwise just enjoys the advantage non-skill based effects bestow upon them. It's even worse in WoW PvP, because the most skilled people get the most passive stats which widens the gap even more.

I should add, the argument that doing PvP should give you gear you can use outside it is pretty unpopular. Too often we end up with pvp gear items being BIS for even mythic raiders. Overwhelmingly more people don't want to PvP for gear than people who do.

[OrangeJuice]

Again, if you actually read the post I linked a thread directly archived on this very site. There was a guild in WOTLK called <Undergeared> that specifically went out to clear raids wearing nothing but blues. Here is the link again: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-gt-Chronicles

lmao dude. The year is 2021 and we're talking about shadowlands.

[Goatfish]

lmao dude. The year is 2021 and we're talking about shadowlands.

The fact you think it's any different is astounding. The ilvl is actually pretty representative of current gear. So it is the equivalent of people clearing content that drops 250ilvl gear while wearing ~180 ilvl gear. With proper raid cd's and good play it is entirely possible. Even just looking at Warcraft Logs records. The highest dps for most any class around 205 ilvl is above the lowest end for 245 ilvl.

Good players perform better in bad gear than bad players do in good gear. Especially when it comes to mechanics, which generally matter more than pure numbers. Honestly the only fights I could see a skilled group of ilvl 200 people having isn't until heroic guardian when hard dps checks come in. But that same group managed to do Patchwork, Festergut, and many other dps races. It's not like they were a branch off from a world first guild either.

Is your argument really that the world first kill of Mythic Sylvanas in 220-230 range ilvl was because they were carried by gear while guilds full of 250ilvl players are still struggling to this day. Just because there aren't any guilds (that I know of) doing the same thing as <Undergeared> doesn't mean it isn't possible. It's a very niche playstyle that intentionally makes the game far more difficult, and this matter has been settled for over a decade, you are just late to the party.

[epigramx]

there have been guilds who take on high end content wearing no epic gear

Who in the world are those guilds? Even if they exist: they are EXTREMELY rare. I'm now in an extremely casual guild and: even them would find me a JERK if I didn't grind for the mere BASICS like finding a good covenant or having conduits at 252 etc.

Careful bud, disparaging remarks against the golden age of legion risks bringing out hivemind to reinforce the echo chamber that is mmoc.

The main reason they feel like that was that the extremist grinding was novel and the dopamine exploitation from it was still new.

It reminds of the Timeless Isle favoritism. It felt fun when it was first released but it's objectively a Korthia mechanically.

[Goatfish]

Who in the world are those guilds? Even if they exist: they are EXTREMELY rare. I'm now in an extremely casual guild and: even them would find me a JERK if I didn't grind for the mere BASICS like finding a good covenant or having conduits at 252 etc.

You missed the point that they were trying to prove. This was done intentionally to prove that lack of gear is NOT the reason people aren't killing bosses. While I think the majority feels like getting gear and getting stronger is a good thing, there is always an elitist faction proving that gear is a crutch. They would have thought you a jerk if they found out you were packing an epic anything during one of their boss kills.

Different strokes for different folks. Though I will say if you are in an "extremely casual" guild that is requiring you to min-max your covenant and grind conduits to 252... I'm literally speechless. I don't think you understand at all what a "casual" player actually is... which makes sense because the way people currently play the game.

[Fenrys]

Who and when? I'm not asking to be an asshole, I'm genuinely curious.

Maybe PvE you can get away without gear and stuff, but in PvP you can't. The lowest increase I've seen on a conduit upgrade is 1%? So if you upgrade from a 180 something to a 252 thats like, at least 10% difference. Thats kinda big. But also, PvPers only get 1-2 conduits from PvP, the rest have to come from shit nobody wants to do. I can tell you literally every single PvPer attempted at some point this expac to prove they're good enough not to need them, and caved in or quit.

The argument "its not even a big deal" is only said by people who don't have them, obviously to justify their laziness.

What do you mean by this? No conduit is worth 1% dps per level. Its normally 1% of something which is worth about 20-30% of dps (and that's the really good ones). Also the majority of the conduit is front loaded (e.g. just having ice bite at the lowest level gives 4% increase, and each level up is worth 0.4% more).

I agree that in PvP gear matters more than in PvE (but not determinative - there are a few streamers out there who seem to be able to reach 2.4k with an ilvl of 200-213). Conduits ilvl really doesn't matter though - at least not the difference between 226 and 252 (and 226 is basically free).

[Malania]

ANYTHING that gives player power that affects gameplay, should only be given from activities that require skill.

Anything that requires mindless grinding should be restricted to mounts and other cosmetics.

So you want the default experience of levelling to be Ironman mode?

It's different, I'll give you that.

[Log Cabin]

So you want the default experience of levelling to be Ironman mode?

It's different, I'll give you that.

I don't know if that is what they meant. I admit a wow where your only upgrades came from doing harder and harder content without cheats appeals to me.

That said I think for a game like wow you need a few cheats... but a few cheat isn't what we have right now. It is far to easy to get free gear from weekly events and just the world in general.

[Malania]

I don't know if that is what they meant. I admit a wow where your only upgrades came from doing harder and harder content without cheats appeals to me.

That said I think for a game like wow you need a few cheats... but a few cheat isn't what we have right now. It is far to easy to get free gear from weekly events and just the world in general.

It wasn't. I was just pointing out that his statement of never getting upgrades without a challenge could be stretched to be reductio ad absurdum. Logically there has to be times when you get gear from trivial activities.

[Argorwal]

Who in the world are those guilds? Even if they exist: they are EXTREMELY rare. I'm now in an extremely casual guild and: even them would find me a JERK if I didn't grind for the mere BASICS like finding a good covenant or having conduits at 252 etc.



The main reason they feel like that was that the extremist grinding was novel and the dopamine exploitation from it was still new.

It reminds of the Timeless Isle favoritism. It felt fun when it was first released but it's objectively a Korthia mechanically.

I’m having a hard time believing a casual guild would even have the slightest idea what level everyone’s conduits are lol.

Yes, picking a covenant is needed, but that’s pretty much auto completed at 60.

[Relapses]

What do you mean by this? No conduit is worth 1% dps per level. Its normally 1% of something which is worth about 20-30% of dps (and that's the really good ones). Also the majority of the conduit is front loaded (e.g. just having ice bite at the lowest level gives 4% increase, and each level up is worth 0.4% more).

I agree that in PvP gear matters more than in PvE (but not determinative - there are a few streamers out there who seem to be able to reach 2.4k with an ilvl of 200-213). Conduits ilvl really doesn't matter though - at least not the difference between 226 and 252 (and 226 is basically free).

There are a few exceptionally good Conduits. (The Venthyr one for Druids is pretty good.) But yeah, for the most part they're about .5-1% DPS at most.

[epigramx]

You missed the point that they were trying to prove. This was done intentionally to prove that lack of gear is NOT the reason people aren't killing bosses. While I think the majority feels like getting gear and getting stronger is a good thing, there is always an elitist faction proving that gear is a crutch. They would have thought you a jerk if they found out you were packing an epic anything during one of their boss kills.

Different strokes for different folks. Though I will say if you are in an "extremely casual" guild that is requiring you to min-max your covenant and grind conduits to 252... I'm literally speechless. I don't think you understand at all what a "casual" player actually is... which makes sense because the way people currently play the game.

Your post makes no sense on both of its points. First of all: it's mathematically impossible to be right on the "gear doesn't make you not kill something"; tell that to everyone that has wipes on 0.4% of a boss; that is OBJECTIVElY a kill on higher gear or other power so at least partly: it plays a role.

Secondly: I don't even know if you have ever played this game if you think extremely casual guilds don't try to do covenant or 252 conduits; e.g. I'm currently in a guild that has only done 3/10m and tries to do the 4th; while that is not the "worst" level guild ever: it is SUPER casual at this time.

- - - Updated - - -

I’m having a hard time believing a casual guild would even have the slightest idea what level everyone’s conduits are lol.

Yes, picking a covenant is needed, but that’s pretty much auto completed at 60.

They may be casual enough to not notice, but their raid leader will find it offensive. I mean sure; you may get away with not being full 252 on all the power conduits: but if they notice you not even caring to upgrade any of them above its base version: they will find it very bad for their group even if they haven't even done half of the mythic raid yet (which is objectively EXTREMELY casual right now because even semi-hard core guilds have done 10/10m by now for weeks).

[Fenrys]

There are a few exceptionally good Conduits. (The Venthyr one for Druids is pretty good.) But yeah, for the most part they're about .5-1% DPS at most.

Even that one is worth approx 30-50 dps per level. Like all conduits the benefit is frontloaded. Having it, at any level, gives the majority of the benefit.

[Theangryone]

Wrong. Gaming is a great venue to develop skills; for example if you have never lead a team before: raid leading in hard raids can make you develop decent leadership skills; even minmaxing a spec for a deeps meter: can make you develop or train on some mathematical skills if you don't have them otherwise.

Besides: this is common knowledge from anthropologists and pediatricians: small children playing games is vital for their development because it's training; adults are not children but: games and sports and generally "fun" activities are never necessarily "just a waste of time" because they teach skills.

There is nothing in WoW that is training you for anything useful in life.

[Alydael]

There should never be any chore content. Period.

This is a game people play for fun, not to do a chore.

If the content seems like it might be like a chore, it should be cut immediately and replaced with something fun and exciting.

If the Devs can not do that, they shouldn't be designing games because games are meant to be fun, not a chore.

I can't believe there are some people in this thread actually arguing for chores......... doh! If you like chores, come by my house- I have some laundry that needs folding (actually I wouldn't trust that type of person to do my chores).

[Relapses]

There should never be any chore content. Period.

This is a game people play for fun, not to do a chore.

If the content seems like it might be like a chore, it should be cut immediately and replaced with something fun and exciting.

If the Devs can not do that, they shouldn't be designing games because games are meant to be fun, not a chore.

I can't believe there are some people in this thread actually arguing for chores......... doh! If you like chores, come by my house- I have some laundry that needs folding (actually I wouldn't trust that type of person to do my chores).

Good thing 100% of players agree what constitutes "fun" and what constitutes a chore, right?

[Goatfish]

Your post makes no sense on both of its points. First of all: it's mathematically impossible to be right on the "gear doesn't make you not kill something"; tell that to everyone that has wipes on 0.4% of a boss; that is OBJECTIVElY a kill on higher gear or other power so at least partly: it plays a role.

I will gladly tell that to everyone who wipes at 0.4% on a boss. I guarantee you that something you could have done as far as positioning, boss uptime, or proper rotation would give you way more dps than another 20 ilvl. But again, that's about the level of argument I expect from someone attempting to defend the idea that 10 ilvl is going to magically double your dps and make mythic sylvanas fall over. Fuck man, we've all seen the 240+ilvl scrub pulling 2k dps, you don't have a leg to stand on here.

The thing that <Undergeared> wanted to prove to brainless ilvl enthusiasts like you is exactly that proper play>gear. You can have the best, fastest car in the world, but if you have a chimp driving it... then nothing about the car matters. There is indeed a mathematical minimum ilvl needed to beat bosses, but the reality is that most people are overkilling it on ilvl to make up for their own lack of skill.

Secondly: I don't even know if you have ever played this game if you think extremely casual guilds don't try to do covenant or 252 conduits; e.g. I'm currently in a guild that has only done 3/10m and tries to do the 4th; while that is not the "worst" level guild ever: it is SUPER casual at this time.

Again: "only done 3/10m" and consider yourself in an "extremely casual" guild that requires things of its members. Either you are trolling, or you are completely disconnected with how people play this game. An "extremely casual" guild has not touched mythic at all. They probably haven't even touched heroic. I'm sure of this because one of my communities is extremely casual and still hasn't killed reg Sylvanas, partially because they are so casual that they don't even have set raid times, let alone gear requirements, or creepy raid leads inspecting your enchants, gems, and conduits.

They may be casual enough to not notice, but their raid leader will find it offensive. I mean sure; you may get away with not being full 252 on all the power conduits: but if they notice you not even caring to upgrade any of them above its base version: they will find it very bad for their group even if they haven't even done half of the mythic raid yet (which is objectively EXTREMELY casual right now because even semi-hard core guilds have done 10/10m by now for weeks).

If that is what you consider "objectively extremely casual" then what about guilds who smash heroic and don't care about mythic? What about guilds that focus on questing, mog farming, and being social? How many more adjectives beyond "extremely" do you have to get to describe the level of casual that a pet battling guild is?

[epigramx]

I guarantee you that something you could have done as far as positioning

And if you were playing better than the world-first-kill guild: you would do it with even LESS gear. Your argument is effectively narcissistic and absolute nonsense anyway; everyone knows if you're "the god" you need less gear; that doesn't mean people should be stupid and always make it harder for themselves on purpose.

As for the "what is casual" talk: it's a waste of time anyway; it's by definition subjective what you think casual is; but I'm pretty sure whoever has done anything above 5-6/10mythic right now will consider anything below 5/10m super casual because absolutely mediocre players exist in such guilds.

[Goatfish]

And if you were playing better than the world-first-kill guild: you would do it with even LESS gear. Your argument is effectively narcissistic and absolute nonsense anyway; everyone knows if you're "the god" you need less gear; that doesn't mean people should be stupid and always make it harder for themselves on purpose.

As for the "what is casual" talk: it's a waste of time anyway; it's by definition subjective what you think casual is; but I'm pretty sure whoever has done anything above 5-6/10mythic right now will consider anything below 5/10m super casual because absolutely mediocre players exist in such guilds.

And you call me narcissistic? I don't understand why you were arguing against me if it's something "everyone knows". Do you just have a fetish to be contrarian? Of course there is a reason not to min-max, and that reason is that people are playing a game for fun, and fun is subjective. The people obsessed with perfecting their numbers are an extreme minority, but when that is all you surround yourself your scale of reference is toast. Saying this as one of those people who strives for perfection and has many previous boss kills in the world first 100, but currently raids in a heroic only guild. At some point I decided to play the game for fun instead of for purely for glory, and to stop downplaying people enjoying the game however they like. I'd rather raid with a dozen good friends than push mythic realm/world firsts and have a raid lead pushing me to spend all day in korthia for a .05% damage increase.

[epigramx]

And you call me narcissistic? I don't understand why you were arguing against me if it's something "everyone knows". Do you just have a fetish to be contrarian? Of course there is a reason not to min-max, and that reason is that people are playing a game for fun, and fun is subjective. The people obsessed with perfecting their numbers are an extreme minority, but when that is all you surround yourself your scale of reference is toast. Saying this as one of those people who strives for perfection and has many previous boss kills in the world first 100, but currently raids in a heroic only guild. At some point I decided to play the game for fun instead of for purely for glory, and to stop downplaying people enjoying the game however they like. I'd rather raid with a dozen good friends than push mythic realm/world firsts and have a raid lead pushing me to spend all day in korthia for a .05% damage increase.

You call me narcissistic and you keep mentioning how you are in the top 100 without anyone asking you to and I keep mentioning I'm in an extremely casual guild; stop talking to the mirror; I have never once said to you I am "pro".

What I'm saying is that even players that are not as pro are not going to say "I don't care: I'll just do whatever: if you are pro you're gonna kill the boss anyway"; that's absolute nonsense; even low progress guilds min max a little.

Besides: and that ends the subtopic for a lot of us: our opinion does not matter because it's obviously disrespectful to almost every guild to not even min max marginally; even people that only raid-log do some minmaxing.