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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Inflation doesn't happen at a set rate in WoW. Putting everything on the store to be purchased by cash or gold kind of invalidates the purpose of the token in the first place. It'd also necessitate easing restrictions on the amounts of WoW tokens able to be purchased which would arguably drive inflation up even higher. Hard pass on that.



    You're assuming that it's the same team working on both types of mounts. We don't know that Blizzard doesn't have an entire team within the company whose job is to facilitate shop mounts. (And frankly, it's kind of boring to look at everything Blizzard does or doesn't do as "taking away" from something else in the company.)
    Why would the amount of tokens available need to change from how it's already regulated?

    I'm assuming that if they have a team working on Store Mounts, that team would be more beneficial to the game by being reallocated to work on Game Mounts, which could still be purchasable by tokens.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    Why would the amount of tokens available need to change from how it's already regulated?

    I'm assuming that if they have a team working on Store Mounts, that team would be more beneficial to the game by being reallocated to work on Game Mounts, which could still be purchasable by tokens.
    Presently you can only buy one token every 4 hours and you're limited to 20 tokens a week. If something like the Brutosaur, for example, was on the store able to be purchased via tokens, they'd need to be able to facilitate the ability to buy 5,000,000 gold in tokens at once.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    Why would the amount of tokens available need to change from how it's already regulated?

    I'm assuming that if they have a team working on Store Mounts, that team would be more beneficial to the game by being reallocated to work on Game Mounts, which could still be purchasable by tokens.
    The shop mounts are side projects. If they aren't done, then Blizzard doesn't spend the money at all. There is no reallocation.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Chipped coin View Post


    I think it could curb it... not get rid of it but at least bring us down from almost an ad a second.
    They could do something about it or take over the gold selling. Obviously they went with the option to fill their own pockets. As any business would.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    They could do something about it or take over the gold selling. Obviously they went with the option to fill their own pockets. As any business would.
    Tell us more about the evils of capitalism.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    The arguments here are really quite alien to me, but I guess it's because I haven't touched this game since early Cata (yes, "why are you here then", get it out of the way; I just like browsing every now and then).

    The introduction of the cash token -- allowing players to buy gold legitimately -- really made this game something I know I could never return to, and I'm sure there are other ex-players who feel the same way.

    When people like Asmongold say, "cash shop mounts/items are garbage because you buy them with $$ instead of in-game gold or in-game achievements", and you guys say, "oh but you can grind gold in game and then buy the cash shop items", you're missing the point so so significantly. It's not about jealousy or anything; it's not about, "why can you buy items with real money but you can't buy it with in-game work?". It's about the fact that you can buy it with real money invalidates the need to perform any kind of in-game work. Why should I spend 50 hours earning it in-game when I can spend an hour at a job to earn the same thing? Why should I play the game when the real world saves me time? This isn't an escape from reality anymore -- it's a decision that never makes sense.

    The WoW world just stopped feeling like a separate WoW world when Blizzard legitimized real cash to gold conversion. I understand that people have been selling gold since Vanilla, long before the cash token was introduced, but this conversion was never legitimized by Blizzard; it was always "illegal" (regardless of whether Blizzard actively sought after gold sellers and gold buyers or not), meaning you always had the feeling that Blizzard cared about keeping up the fourth wall that kept the WoW world in a bubble away from the real world.

    It's just not the same. In the time since I've quit WoW, I've gained a BA and a MA and started two businesses; I'm the type of player who happily whales for games if I like them. But just because I can buy everything on the cash shop and buy millions of gold without feeling it in my bank account doesn't mean I want to or like the idea of doing that. The charm of the separate WoW world was that cool things were earned by in-game effort. It was a separate world from the real world. But these days it's not, and the players who still play here -- namely the arguments on the first page -- seem to have forgotten that. Or maybe this shift in mindset is the only way you can still stand to play this game.

    MMO cosmetics used to be about in-game prestige, with prestige mattering more than even the aesthetics of the cosmetics; prestige, because it depended on your in-game effort. I remember spending hundreds of hours doing everything necessary to get "The Insane" title in WotLK, before the nerf to it in Cata. I totally understood that whole prestige thing. But then you see the art team making the best cosmetics that can be earned immediately with cash, and it cheapens the experience, it cheapens the purpose and it cheapens the world.

    At the end of the day, maybe this is just an older mindset or approach. MMOs used to be about creating a world and protecting the integrity of that separate world. But I guess WoW sees itself as a lobby game now, so it acts as lobby games act.
    Great post and no you're not alone. The people defending the shop mounts with the stated arguments are always the same people and they've been defending it for the years. There's definitely a big majority of players that agree with you, however for most of these people a shop like that isn't a good enough reason to stop playing, so that's why Blizz keeps releasing these store items.

    All of the store mounts they make are relatively cheap (iirc they even said at blizzcon that artists work on them as side projects, so they even admitted that they're not a huge effort) and selling them, even in small numbers will yield massive profits.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Great post and no you're not alone. The people defending the shop mounts with the stated arguments are always the same people and they've been defending it for the years. There's definitely a big majority of players that agree with you, however for most of these people a shop like that isn't a good enough reason to stop playing, so that's why Blizz keeps releasing these store items.

    All of the store mounts they make are relatively cheap (iirc they even said at blizzcon that artists work on them as side projects, so they even admitted that they're not a huge effort) and selling them, even in small numbers will yield massive profits.
    Yeah dude, you figured it out. All those lost subscriptions... couldn't possibly be because people just moved the fuck on with their lives; nope. It's the cash shop. Gotta be the cash shop.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Tell us more about the evils of capitalism.
    You think Blizzard is evil for engaging in caplitilism? If so that must be the first negative thing you have ever written on these forums about Blizzard.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Yeah dude, you figured it out. All those lost subscriptions... couldn't possibly be because people just moved the fuck on with their lives; nope. It's the cash shop. Gotta be the cash shop.
    Maybe you could read my post before commenting. I specifically wrote that the cash shop isn't a reason for most people to quit playing even if they hate it.

    I hope you know that no one thinks you are cool for having a high post count...

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Maybe you could read my post before commenting. I specifically wrote that the cash shop isn't a reason for most people to quit playing even if they hate it.
    How else do I interpret "definitely a big majority of players that agree with you" then? When did you and the dude you quoted gain the ability speak on behalf of all players who've ever played the game? At best your post was pointlessly cynical. At worse it was factually wrong. I'm sorry I disagreed with you?

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Presently you can only buy one token every 4 hours and you're limited to 20 tokens a week. If something like the Brutosaur, for example, was on the store able to be purchased via tokens, they'd need to be able to facilitate the ability to buy 5,000,000 gold in tokens at once.
    What? That doesnt check out. If they put the Brutosaur on the Blizzard Store, it'd cost like $500 with today's pricing.

    It is already currently puchasable with gold, which you can earn by buying tokens with real money. So you can spend like $500 USD and get the brutosaur right now already. And im saying it's a good thing that its purchaseable ingame and not on the store.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    What? That doesnt check out. If they put the Brutosaur on the Blizzard Store, it'd cost like $500 with today's pricing.

    It is already currently puchasable with gold, which you can earn by buying tokens with real money. So you can spend like $500 USD and get the brutosaur right now already. And im saying it's a good thing that its purchaseable ingame and not on the store.
    ...you literally cannot spend $500 on tokens at one time. Hello?

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    ...you literally cannot spend $500 on tokens at one time. Hello?
    Yes. And why would that change if the Store Mounts were removed from the Blizzard Store and placed on various gold-only vendors throughout the game for various gold prices?

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    Yes. And why would that change if the Store Mounts were removed from the Blizzard Store and placed on various gold-only vendors throughout the game for various gold prices?
    Because most people aren't going to spend multiple tokens over a period of time. They'd just buy the gold illegally in a lump sum instead.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Because most people aren't going to spend multiple tokens over a period of time. They'd just buy the gold illegally in a lump sum instead.
    All of the Store Mounts cost only two tokens right now. So theyd be about 500,000 gold on a vendor. There would be no need to change how many tokens you can buy at once if they were removed from the store and added to an ingame vendor, because you'd still only need two for those. And even less as time goes on and gold numbers continually increase each expansion.

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's funny how you attempt to narrow down gaslighting to its most malicous form, here's what Wikipedia actually says about gaslighting.
    And yet what I am doing is so far off even that definition it's ridiculous.
    1) You've not proven a false narrative
    2) Where is this supposed unequal power relationship?
    3) What about my argument, on a debating forum, can possibly cause you to become "disoriented and distressed". As I already said, if this is how you respond to losing a debate on an internet forum, maybe that is a hint that you should avoid participation.

    The whole point of a forum is to discuss different points of view. And anyone here should be open to the idea of adjusting their position on a topic (very few are, sadly). But that's a far cry from causing someone to doubt their perceptions. Essentially you're taking issue with the fact that I am arguing with your point of view and now acting as if you're some kind of victim.

    And the real kicker here is that ironically everything that in your opinion qualifies my argument as gaslighting is something you're doing to equal or greater effect. And the fact that you persist in this line of personal attack on me makes you, frankly, the abuser in our relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    It's not just about driving a person towards the point of insanity, it's already enough that the person starts to doubt themself to fit the term of gaslighting.
    Oh cry my a fucking river. Now you're doubting yourself because the evil Raelbo on the internet told you he doesn't agree with your opinion. Boohoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Which you are engaging, as your argument is to put forward the narrative that my feedback is actually the problem, not the the developers ability to process that feedback properly.
    Since when was anyone's feedback some holy cow that is off limits for discussion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    And frankly the fact that you blame player feedback is in my opinion a false narrative
    That's fine. You're allowed to disagree. But then defend it with a proper argument instead of trying to force me into submission by trying to shame me with egregious accusations of gaslighting. It's pathetic frankly. You feel you're losing the argument, so you resort to personal attacks.

    I am done with trying to argue with you. At this point you're acting petulantly and in persisting with this line of attack, you're basically admitting that your argument is too weak and you know it.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And yet what I am doing is so far off even that definition it's ridiculous.
    1) You've not proven a false narrative
    2) Where is this supposed unequal power relationship?
    3) What about my argument, on a debating forum, can possibly cause you to become "disoriented and distressed". As I already said, if this is how you respond to losing a debate on an internet forum, maybe that is a hint that you should avoid participation.
    I didn't claim it had any success, mate
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    You feel you're losing the argument, so you resort to personal attacks.
    I have pointed out multiple arguments.

    (1) The Developers have dismissed feedback regarding the borrowed power systems in Legion, BfA and SL, despite all of those had very similiar glaring issues.
    (2) Blizzard has always fixed those issues only months later for very contrived reasons, rather than resolve them upfront (disregarding that the apathy it is causing within the playerbase)
    (3) The people who have had been very close to the devs in the form of private forums have spoken out that ever since Legion, their feedback was very often disregarded and multiple issues that have been called out during Beta have ocurred shortly after the System hit live and then had to be resolved.
    (4) Even if you want disregard all of those issues that this stubbornness is causing (and Ion himself admitted to that) by citing "creative reasons", the fact how much effort Blizzard has to put into those systems as far as balance is concerned, concerns that get multiplied due to their artifical friction, cannot possibly be worth the trouble and should effort rather be focused on improving other aspects of the game, rather than attempting to balance a system that cannot be balanced and where it's a given that it lands in the bin next expansion.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Amnaught View Post
    What do you think? Is there anyone playing the game who legitimately had the opinion of "this game **should** have $25 mounts every now and then that sometimes get removed from the store for manufactured FOMO"?

    I mean opposed to the apathetic players, who are simply unbothered by it and think the anti-store players are whiners.

    What would a pro-store-mount thread even look like?

    Because the only way I can see this going is a well thought out anti-store post with a bunch of "sense of pride and accomplishment" replies from Blizzard devs.

    I don't mind store mounts. I don't see their price in $$, I see it in gold.

    And let me tell you, 25$ is a hell of a lot less in gold than the Brutosaur was.

    Do you think 400,000 gold for a really cool mount is too much? People have paid way more than that.

  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I didn't claim it had any success, mate
    So basically you have no basis for claiming gaslighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I have pointed out multiple arguments.
    One doesn't "point out" arguments. One makes arguments.

    What you have done is made a bunch of assertions. What you haven't done is provided decent arguments to support those assertions. And when someone like me tries to give you the feedback, backed up by an actual argument, which you need to understand the flaws in your position, not only did you refuse to act on that feedback, you chose instead to attack me personally.

    The most hilarious thing about this whole exercise is that you're being critical of Blizzard's alleged inability to listen to feedback.

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    So basically you have no basis for claiming gaslighting.
    Attempted murder is still an attempt of murder.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    What you have done is made a bunch of assertions. What you haven't done is provided decent arguments to support those assertions.
    The problem is that when someone is that disengenous to not see a parallel between something such as the Legion Legendary system, the corruption system and how Blizzard "fixed" those system, then you are simply being ignorant.

    And here i'm not even mentioning the parallels how Blizzard justified these systems, they've always been on about how this adds "friction" to the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    And when someone like me tries to give you the feedback, backed up by an actual argument
    "They receive a lot of feedback" stops being an argument when they make the same mistakes for 6 years, fix them months later and finally even fucking admit they've been too stubborn about this.
    And also gets undermined that there was an entire subsection of the their feedback process that was designed for handpicked players, who have been known to provide objective feedback, which served as a more direct line to the devs.
    And those handpicked players have said: They're not listening.

    When people who frankly were invited onto private forums with the devs TO GIVE FEEDBACK, say they are very aversed to feedback, i take their word over your attempts of obfuscation and excuses for a group that frankly made the same mistakes for years.

    And i reiterate one thing: You are dying on a hill that the game director himself has, at least by his words (not necessarily action), given up on.

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