9.2 Lore Speculation

[Sondrelk]

Not just you, no; I've seen a lot of people complaining about this idea in this thread and in other places. Mostly I find the 3D-printed thing to be a bit of a tongue-in-cheek reduction of what's actually going on here, it would be akin to calling a particle accelerator a "racetrack" or a "highway." A fabrication and construction engine created by literal progenitor deities is definitely a valid and "authentic" way of constructing beings, at least in terms of popular fiction. I don't think it reduces or otherwise minimalizes their importance or relative worth in terms of the narrative.

As for the "Origination" stuff, I think the implication here is that Zovaal is interfacing with some Titantic systems on Azeroth as part of his attack on Azeroth's world-soul in an attempt to destroy or co-opt it (depending on what he's ultimately doing in the raid).

It is a neat way of actually showing how a godlike being might create something that is itself godlike, and it is no less valid than saying the First Ones created the Shadowlands and the Pantheon with it.
The issue I see is more on how the fact that they look like what we know implies a sort of intent on how they would act as well. Kyrestia was always going to be somewhat stubborn and unwilling to change, Denathrius would always be untrustworthy, and Zovaal would always end up being evil.

Taken in a vacuum it's a wonderful piece of high-fantasy that could drag a story in a myriad different ways. The issue is more that WoW isnt the kind of game that can support such a concept. It's more likely it will end up reductive and making the world feel smaller, instead of what I assume to be an intent to just make a cool setpiece.

[huth]

Never saw it so it must only be for Necrolords as I've played through on multiple Venthyr, Kyrian, and Night Fae. My necrolord is right at that chapter. Regardless my point stands that the Revendreth sigil does exist and reformed by Denathrius.

Well, sort of. He wasn't exactly a willing participant in that.

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It is a neat way of actually showing how a godlike being might create something that is itself godlike, and it is no less valid than saying the First Ones created the Shadowlands and the Pantheon with it.

I'd say it doesn't even change it. One is just what they did, the other is showing how.

[Lolites]

Never saw it so it must only be for Necrolords as I've played through on multiple Venthyr, Kyrian, and Night Fae. Regardless my point stands that the Revendreth sigil does exist and reformed by Denathrius.

fair point, although Ravendreth sigil was reformed by other AFTER his demise (well, his body at least doesnt exist) so who knows how it works, maybe we could not reform maldraxi without primus due to him still being more or less ok, and thats why arbiter wasnt repaired sooner

although im curious how and by who and from what will the new arbiter sigil be made... perhaps thats why we get new arbiter before going to ZM as we need someone to make new sigil although thats pure speculation

[ohwell]

fair point, although Ravendreth sigil was reformed by other AFTER his demise (well, his body at least doesnt exist) so who knows how it works, maybe we could not reform maldraxi without primus due to him still being more or less ok, and thats why arbiter wasnt repaired sooner

although im curious how and by who and from what will the new arbiter sigil be made... perhaps thats why we get new arbiter before going to ZM as we need someone to make new sigil although thats pure speculation

I'm guessing remnants of Zovaal himself perhaps from the maw. Not sure how P becoming Arbiter suddenly allows him to make a sigil.

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Them actually creating a new Arbiter (Pelagos) instead of abandoning it points to them going to make a new Jailer: Sylvanas.

Which is a fitting end for her (lord of the worst fucking place in hell) but because it's not her being nuked into cosmic dust it's going to cause lots of asshurt.

Zovaal was never the Jailer from the standpoint of the others. It became his name because of what he did in the Maw. There wasn't one before him so why would there need to be after him? They called him that as that was what he had become and they didn't want people to know seemingly that he was once the Arbiter. I mean hell you would think someone would have mentioned before Bolvar commented. Nope, they felt guilty and wanted to hide their shame so calling him the Jailer like those in the maw were seemed like a good idea. He wasn't sent there to be in charge. He was sent there to suffer.

[EbaumsTipster]

As for the "Origination" stuff, I think the implication here is that Zovaal is interfacing with some Titantic systems on Azeroth as part of his attack on Azeroth's world-soul in an attempt to destroy or co-opt it (depending on what he's ultimately doing in the raid).

I actually think that the machine is THE Originator. Note how the titans only had a REOriginator, so this machine is essentially the original machine that creates things.

He may just be doing the reversal and flipping it to destroy mode. Though I don't know why he would be attacking Azeroth then.

[Ersula]

No that's not "Evil Alliance" that's "Morally dubious Alliance".

The Lightbound are also not affiliated with the Alliance in any way.

The Lightbound were those who unquestioningly followed Xe'ra, including enveloping them in her essence: That's Turalyon. It's why he's not an extremely old man & he's the King of the Alliance right now.

[Houle]

Much less the whole "these days" is just at this point someone sheepishly repeating what they've been told to believe when the writing now is no better or worse than it was previously.

uhhhh, yes it clearly is. perhaps not worse than TBC writing, but its faaaaaar worse than WC3 or MoP for example.
the writing was never great, but this is abysmally bad. you are just sheepishly repeating what youve been told by blizz, as a true fanboy should.

[sighy]

bcs years ago arbiter was doing fine?
as for why not replace it sooner, maybe they needed sigils from covenants and before we let primus out they didnt have them? although we dont have one from denathrius i guess so idk...

The end of Legion/start of BfA has happened years ago and if they can just pull a new arbiter out of their ass there is literally no excuse for it to still be broken.

[OCoyne]

This may be a very random question. But why are there Dreadlords in the Sepulcher? The Jailer has zero affiliation with them.

And what was the point in the whole riddle about Lorthraxion in x.0 if they aren't going to include him.

[Ersula]

It's worth noting that even prior to Chronicle the Titans were never really progenitor-type deities, as they're born within the already extant cosmos and didn't really create much of anything beyond some of their own servant-races, they just "ordered" the already existing planets according to what they thought was proper. Their role was more to tamp down the primordial chaos and deal with what they thought was disorder in the universe, and the universe itself predated them.

What's unclear, and will probably be explained in 9.2, is by bringing "order" to the universe, did that include separating the shadowlands from the plane of the living? Because it certainly included separating the plane of the living from the Emerald Dream, where life originates, according to the Winter Queen. "Opposite branches of the same tree" (Unclear if she meant The Emerald Dream is where souls pass through before they're alive, or that the Emerald Dream is itself another afterlife?) Even if the First ones were designing places for souls, that doesn't necessarily mean the veil existed between them, or that the first ones didn't also create planets.

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This may be a very random question. But why are there Dreadlords in the Sepulcher? The Jailer has zero affiliation with them.

And what was the point in the whole riddle about Lorthraxion in x.0 if they aren't going to include him.

I thought they just ran off with Denathrius, untill their next moustache-twirling plot, but no, apparently they're still working for the Jailer in 9.2

[ohwell]

uhhhh, yes it clearly is. perhaps not worse than TBC writing, but its faaaaaar worse than WC3 or MoP for example.
the writing was never great, but this is abysmally bad. you are just sheepishly repeating what youve been told by blizz, as a true fanboy should.

Explain exactly how it's worse. I'll wait. I'll say the lore right now is exactly on par with WC3. But hey keep peddling what someone else told you to think.

[Sondrelk]

This may be a very random question. But why are there Dreadlords in the Sepulcher? The Jailer has zero affiliation with them.

And what was the point in the whole riddle about Lorthraxion in x.0 if they aren't going to include him.

The Dreadlords serve Denathrius, who in turn serves the Jailer. Not really a big leap.

[OCoyne]

I thought they just ran off with Denathrius, untill their next moustache-twirling plot, but no, apparently they're still working for the Jailer in 9.2

Exactly! There's zero reason for Mal'Ganis or Kin'Tessa to be there!

The fight itself looks amazing btw, with Mal'Ganis with his both WC3 and Heroes of the Storm kit and the other mind controls a random player, but their nameplate doesn't turn red so you have to find out how with the clues given

[ohwell]

What's unclear, and will probably be explained in 9.2, is by bringing "order" to the universe, did that include separating the shadowlands from the plane of the living? Because it certainly included separating the plane of the living from the Emerald Dream, where life originates, according to the Winter Queen. "Opposite branches of the same tree" (Unclear if she meant The Emerald Dream is where souls pass through before they're alive, or that the Emerald Dream is itself another afterlife?) Even if the First ones were designing places for souls, that doesn't necessarily mean the veil existed between them, or that the first ones didn't also create planets.

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I thought they just ran off with Denathrius, untill their next moustache-twirling plot, but no, apparently they're still working for the Jailer in 9.2

Feigning servitude. It's only 2 of them. I'm pretty sure they got word of him just being a tool and they were ultimately pissed, but needed to keep their hand in just in case he succeeds, but hey let's spout about mustache twirling.... I mean my god did you expect them to stay there?

[OCoyne]

The Dreadlords serve Denathrius, who in turn serves the Jailer. Not really a big leap.

Denathrius isn't affliated with the Jailer. The Jailer has pretty much dis-owned him.

[ohwell]

Exactly! There's zero reason for Mal'Ganis or Kin'Tessa to be there!

The fight itself looks amazing btw, with Mal'Ganis with his both WC3 and Heroes of the Storm kit and the other mind controls a random player, but their nameplate doesn't turn red so you have to find out how with the clues given

There most certainly is. I thought it was stupid at first that the dreadlords would be there according to that quest, but if it's just 2? Yeah that's to show a sign of support in case he succeeds. Now if Denathrius was there with a horde of them? You might have a point. The Dreadlord who delivered Roh-Kalo and just 1 other high up guy would be enough show of faith in case we fail.

[TheFirstOnes]

Depends on the relative power of these fabricated Eternal Ones. On one hand, it seems unlikely Zovaal would ever create automatons that rivaled him in power (either individually or collectively), and on the other hand we also manage to seemingly defeat them all during the events of the SotFO raid encounter. So I would say it's very likely these prototype Eternal Ones aren't really that close in power to the current Eternal Ones and are more just shoddy replicants Zovaal has created out of his need for self-aggrandizement.

Considering the other Eternal Ones don't appear to rival him in power...like...at all, currently, I find this take hard to believe.

[Lolites]

The end of Legion/start of BfA has happened years ago and if they can just pull a new arbiter out of their ass there is literally no excuse for it to still be broken.

1. we still dont have confirmed what broke arbiter
2. end of legion happened years ago IN REAL LIFE TIME, and in reali world, not in shadowlands where as we have been told time moves differently
3. have you even read what i wrote? seems like not...

[Aucald]

I actually think that the machine is THE Originator. Note how the titans only had a REOriginator, so this machine is essentially the original machine that creates things.

He may just be doing the reversal and flipping it to destroy mode. Though I don't know why he would be attacking Azeroth then.

Hard to say, but that's definitely possible. Though the question I'd have if that were the case is why Zereth Mortis would be the place where such an engine of origination would be located, as opposed to the plane of Life or Light or what have you? Death seems like a strange realm to put a machine that generated *all* of the metacosm's substance.

[Houle]

Explain exactly how it's worse. I'll wait. I'll say the lore right now is exactly on par with WC3. But hey keep peddling what someone else told you to think.

jeez where to start. the fact that everything we see now is old stuff but "bigger and badder" than before (first ones, zovaal, eternal ones, brokers, maldraxxus)?
the fact that zovaal was simply being retconned into the story, which makes a lot of things (for example the entirety of WC3) pointless?
the fact that magic, which was once simple yet logical, is now separated into "cosmic powers", which dont make a any sense?
(for example, if death is a force and magic of its own, why the fuck can both fel and void do the exact same thing it can, and more?)
the fact that MOST of the story is now drop-fed to us, and built entirely on "we know its sucks now BUT the conclusion will be totally worth it guys"?
the fact that sylvanas motivations and goals were literally spelled out in a book, until SL came along a mere few months later and retconned that?

but ill stop now. you are clearly a fanboy, and your only argument is "someone else told you to think this".
guess what: nobody told me anything, i just form my own opinion. i said the ending of legion was shit, back when everyone loved the whole "sargeras stabbing the world" thing. i always said WotLK treatment of ner'zhul was garbage, even of most others think its the best writing the game ever had.
you, on the other hand, seemingly dont have a real opinion. you just suck up whatever blizz "delivers" and thank them for it.