9.2 Lore Speculation

[Aucald]

When did anywhere say that? They stated that the First Ones created the first sapient races, elements, planets & creatures. But that doesn't mean a.) the cosmic forces didn't exist before them. As the cosmic forces are unknowable. And not included in the "known" universe. And b.) that other forms of life didn't spring forth afterwards, from their creations. For example, they didn't create humans. The first ones only created the things that would eventually create humans, nor did they create the curse of flesh & Nor did they create the Old Gods. But they can take a small amount of the credit as they created the things that would eventually bring them into existence. Just like how you can't assume the creation of Humans was intentional. And c.) The Naaru, or Void Lords & Titans, are the highest known authority of these cosmic forces, but there is no strict evidence they are the ultimate authority of them. So the First Ones might have created the Naaru, etc. That doesn't mean they created "Light" or "Void".

TL;dR, if you're so certain when the devs said the First Ones "created everything we know" they actually meant they "created everything:" Then what the hell are they defending against? If everything was made to their grand design why would they need to protect it from outside forces?

Steve Danuser: "You learn of this Broker that's on the trail of super-powerful artifacts that were created by the First Ones, the progenitors who created the Shadowlands and other cosmic realms." (Source)

[...] but clearly they were these mysterious and very powerful beings that kind of architected the framework of the universe of which the titans, the Pantheon of Death, pantheons of all these different influences are kind of like the next layer down from those First Ones, these progenitors of the universe. (Source)

The First Ones created the framework of the universe of which the Titans, the Eternal Ones, and all the pantheons derive or were born within. They created the Shadowlands and the other cosmic realms. "They conceived and put in place the six governing forces of reality: Light, Void, Order, Disorder, Life, and Death; as well as the pantheons that embody them" as per the Grimoire of the Shadowlands and Beyond (pg. 150 - 151).

[arboachg]

Who is the Arishem in WoW then? Would be cool to see our version

Celestials are incubated inside planets, ala Titans. (Presumably,) Titans destroy the planets they hatch from. Titans/Celestials go around ordering and shaping things. There are a lot of clear inspirations you can see Blizzard got from the Celestials and other similar stories/characters.

[velspine]

This +100000000000000.

Especially the very first line.
And pretty much whole of Shadowlands is in their shadow. Where they cared so much to forcefully add their "agenda" into the game. While lore itself is.... beyond retarded.
I think they even forgot about Ve'nari at this point?

You know MMO Champ, you let this incest breed of bigots go on way to long and spew so much hate for simple changes to a game that GUESS WHAT, GAMES FALL UNDER ART/ENTERTAINMENT.

You all are nothing, but bully biggots who deserve to choke on a ****

Been gay for 30 years and STILL not sure WHAT FUCKING AGENDA YOU ALL SEEM TO SEE WITH ANY PC ADDITION.

No better than Nazis, KKK, ISIS. You all are beareded trolls.

I will take my ban now. Fuck this site and the trolls that are "fans" of this game. You all deserve your tongues ripped out and to receive shock therapy.

[Ersula]

1. Anduin becomes a naaru???
2. Sylvanas is incharge of judgement? Holy crap. Imagine fighting a war against her all your life, dying, opening your eyes and realizing shes there holding the gavel to your eternity. GG.
3. Genn signs a PERMANENT peace treaty????

I dont even know. I dont even knooow.

We already know she isn't going to be the Arbiter. Stop trusting everyone who knows a little photoshop.

- - - Updated - - -

Celestials are incubated inside planets, ala Titans. (Presumably,) Titans destroy the planets they hatch from. Titans/Celestials go around ordering and shaping things. There are a lot of clear inspirations you can see Blizzard got from the Celestials and other similar stories/characters.

Celestials & World Souls are totally different things. Also Celestials are a kind of wild god. I think you mean Constellar: Algalon is a constellar, not a celestial. Yu-lon is a celestial, not a constellar.

I am a little nostalgic for the Warcraft 3 days where everything above a person was just called an "eternal"

[Aucald]

Celestials & World Souls are totally different things. Also Celestials are a kind of wild god. I think you mean Constellar: Algalon is a constellar, not a celestial. Yu-lon is a celestial, not a constellar.

I am a little nostalgic for the Warcraft 3 days where everything above a person was just called an "eternal"

"Celestial" isn't really a classification as concerns the August Celestials of the Pandaren - that's just what they're called as a group, but their real classification in terms of the Warcraft universe is as Wild Gods. Constellars, Titans, and beings like the Celestial Steed and Celestial Defenders would be true celestial entities - beings that evoke the sky, stars, and constellations. World-Souls are just nascent Titans, so they'd qualify as celestial given their natures once fully realized as Titans: "godlike beings made up of the primordial matter from which the very universe was born [...] imbued with the raw power of creation itself, they roam the cosmos like walking worlds."

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Anyone would fit being the arbiter better than Sylvanas

Yeah. Pretty much. Good to see people dislike her too.

[Ersula]

Steve Danuser: "You learn of this Broker that's on the trail of super-powerful artifacts that were created by the First Ones, the progenitors who created the Shadowlands and other cosmic realms." (Source)

[...] but clearly they were these mysterious and very powerful beings that kind of architected the framework of the universe of which the titans, the Pantheon of Death, pantheons of all these different influences are kind of like the next layer down from those First Ones, these progenitors of the universe. (Source)

The First Ones created the framework of the universe of which the Titans, the Eternal Ones, and all the pantheons derive or were born within. They created the Shadowlands and the other cosmic realms. "They conceived and put in place the six governing forces of reality: Light, Void, Order, Disorder, Life, and Death; as well as the pantheons that embody them" as per the Grimoire of the Shadowlands and Beyond (pg. 150 - 151).

You're misrepresenting what he said. You're just saying Cosmic Realm means the Cosmic Forces themselves because he used the word cosmic. He's using Layman terminology, meaning when he says Cosmic realm he just means alien planets, which is what that would mean in any other context. Just like when he says "Cosmic expansion" to refer to Shadowlands & Legion. Then I would point to him saying "progenitors of the universe". If we're supposed to infer that they created everything including the cosmic forces they could have just said "creators of the universe." When "Progenitor" aligns with what I described instead.

The actual dialog in Chronicles descibes the "known universe" as the inside of the circle. Denoting that the "cosmic forces" are *outside* the "universe" meaning they originate from or exist within their own unique universe. The First Ones did not create these forces.

[Dioporco]

Saw this on Twitter:

Seriously WoW writers sucks ballz how can people dig this shitty lore and storytelling jesus

[TheFirstOnes]

Steve Danuser: "You learn of this Broker that's on the trail of super-powerful artifacts that were created by the First Ones, the progenitors who created the Shadowlands and other cosmic realms." (Source)

[...] but clearly they were these mysterious and very powerful beings that kind of architected the framework of the universe of which the titans, the Pantheon of Death, pantheons of all these different influences are kind of like the next layer down from those First Ones, these progenitors of the universe. (Source)

The First Ones created the framework of the universe of which the Titans, the Eternal Ones, and all the pantheons derive or were born within. They created the Shadowlands and the other cosmic realms. "They conceived and put in place the six governing forces of reality: Light, Void, Order, Disorder, Life, and Death; as well as the pantheons that embody them" as per the Grimoire of the Shadowlands and Beyond (pg. 150 - 151).

Stuff like this is why I love guys like you!

[Dioporco]

This entire sci-fi lore is cringe and inconsistent.

Years and Years about Elune and other "gods" that created the universe and azeroth to discover they got 3D printed by the gods of gods and probably in 10.x we will discover that the First One are made by the Earlier Ones that created them to create the pantheon to create azeroth etc etc


Insanely boring and already retconned

[Nerovar]

This entire sci-fi lore is cringe and inconsistent.

Years and Years about Elune and other "gods" that created the universe and azeroth to discover they got 3D printed by the gods of gods and probably in 10.x we will discover that the First One are made by the Earlier Ones that created them to create the pantheon to create azeroth etc etc


Insanely boring and already retconned

What do you mean? All of this was set up all the way back in WC3.

[Dioporco]

What do you mean? All of this was set up all the way back in WC3.

Ah yes the BIG BRAINERINO PLAN FROM WAR3 how to butcher a well done, plain and simple Lore, trying to avoid admitting they made a mistake and shat on everything they wrote up to 2 weeks ago.


The Demon Army created the Lich King to shatter the defense of Azeroth to make easy for them invade the planet, but the Lich King betrayed them making Arthas free him from the Throne so the Demon Army other guy decide to use the Nelf Demon Hunter to shatter the North Pole of Azeroth and kill the Lich King before Arthas frees him.


Now all of this was a masterplan from the Janitor that made the lich king basically but also the demon army by proxy agents and so he made both the demon army and the lich king + scourge just to make the clash at some point for reasons?

ok

[DemonHunter18]

Ah yes the BIG BRAINERINO PLAN FROM WAR3 how to butcher a well done, plain and simple Lore, trying to avoid admitting they made a mistake and shat on everything they wrote up to 2 weeks ago.


The Demon Army created the Lich King to shatter the defense of Azeroth to make easy for them invade the planet, but the Lich King betrayed them making Arthas free him from the Throne so the Demon Army other guy decide to use the Nelf Demon Hunter to shatter the North Pole of Azeroth and kill the Lich King before Arthas frees him.


Now all of this was a masterplan from the Janitor that made the lich king basically but also the demon army by proxy agents and so he made both the demon army and the lich king + scourge just to make the clash at some point for reasons?

ok

GOAT level writing right there

They should get some award lol.

[Varodoc]

You people weren't paying attention when playing WC3.

Don't you remember when Mal'ganis thought to himself "The Janitor will be pleased with Arthas slaying me, all is proceeding as planned, soon the World Soul of this world will be his"??

[8bithamster]

Seriously WoW writers sucks ballz how can people dig this shitty lore and storytelling jesus

Aah yes, another person who can't seem to differentiate real from fake.

Just like the sylvanas arbiter bs.. Already got proven wrong.
And comparing lore to kotick who threatened people. Yikes. Pathetic.

[huth]

This entire sci-fi lore is cringe and inconsistent.

Years and Years about Elune and other "gods" that created the universe and azeroth to discover they got 3D printed by the gods of gods and probably in 10.x we will discover that the First One are made by the Earlier Ones that created them to create the pantheon to create azeroth etc etc


Insanely boring and already retconned

So, what about that exactly is inconsistent? And what of it was retconned? Also, 'sci-fi' isn't an insult, nor does it really fit here.

Seems to me you're just ranting.

[Aucald]

You're misrepresenting what he said. You're just saying Cosmic Realm means the Cosmic Forces themselves because he used the word cosmic. He's using Layman terminology, meaning when he says Cosmic realm he just means alien planets, which is what that would mean in any other context. Just like when he says "Cosmic expansion" to refer to Shadowlands & Legion. Then I would point to him saying "progenitors of the universe". If we're supposed to infer that they created everything including the cosmic forces they could have just said "creators of the universe." When "Progenitor" aligns with what I described instead.

The actual dialog in Chronicles descibes the "known universe" as the inside of the circle. Denoting that the "cosmic forces" are *outside* the "universe" meaning they originate from or exist within their own unique universe. The First Ones did not create these forces.
https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/--Mv...icle_Magic.jpg

There's no real way to misrepresent someone flat-out saying "powerful beings that kind of architected the framework of the universe" as well as "[The First Ones] conceived and put in place the six governing forces of reality: Light, Void, Order, Disorder, Life, and Death." That's point-blank saying the First Ones created the metacosm we know, created and set into motion the six primordial forces, and literally created the realms and pantheons that populate those realms. The cosmos as depicted in the Chronicle Vol. 1 was the cosmos as the Titans found and reckoned, the one they were born into, the one that the First Ones had created before the first Titan Aman'thul was born from his world-soul eons ago. A "progenitor" is a person or thing from which a person, animal, or plant is descended or originates: in this case, that thing in question is the entirety of the WoW metacosm and everything within it, including the Titans.

[Ersula]

There's no real way to misrepresent someone flat-out saying "powerful beings that kind of architected the framework of the universe" as well as "[The First Ones] conceived and put in place the six governing forces of reality: Light, Void, Order, Disorder, Life, and Death."

He never said that. You're headcannoning & you should go to the 9.X thread because the Final Boss room pretty much proves what I'm saying: The Eternity's end final fight is in a replica of the cosmology chart, with 6 alcoves, each representing the 6 cosmic forces; The machine uses the forces as a resource, they didn't make them.

[Aucald]

He never said that. You're headcannoning & you should go to the 9.X thread because the Final Boss room pretty much proves what I'm saying: The Eternity's end final fight is in a replica of the cosmology chart, with 6 alcoves, each representing the 6 cosmic forces; The machine uses the forces as a resource, they didn't make them.

I gave you direct quotes and page references to exactly what was said - at this point I'd say you're turtled so deeply into your own perspective you're unable or unwilling to admit that you're mistaken.

[niilokin]

It feels so out of place that Blizzard put effort and time to release the Chronicles yet retconned a huge portion of the lore later. The whole "it's from the titans' viewpoint" biz is silly because the almighty Titans should know a shit ton more about the universe for traveling it for eons yet all the Warcraft events are told by an omniscient narrator. Now they just going that before all cosmic forces there were... polygons.