Do you think Alleria, Vereesa and elves like Valeera are traitors to Quel'Thalas?

[Lochton]

It depends on how you view the word.

Some might say no, because they agree w/ the two sisters knowing what's best for the BEs (or) they feel what violence and schisms occurred is water under the bridge.

Others might say yes, because 1) Violence between them (Dalaran) and other skirmishes where the HEs where the BE magic counterpart in regions 2)They feel the schisms and their reasons are enough 3)They disagree w/ the Windrunners' opinions on the future of the race 4) The second they joined the Alliance they became the enemy

I'm of the opinion that Alleria wasn't until the VEs openly waged war on the Horde during BFA and beyond (w/ claims of retaking Silvermoon etc) and Vereesa was because she and HEs like her almost exist exclusively to be a thorn in Silvermoon and Sylvanas' side.

The only part I can see them as being traitors, are with Alleria and the Void Elves, actively waging war against the Horde. All other situations have the HE's and BE's separated without too much combat, heck, even worked together in many situations. And we're not talking about the 4th Elven faction, which I consider complete treason, the ones who selected to join Prince Keal'thas in Outland.

[Varodoc]

Accusing Alleria and the Ren'dorei of waging war against the Horde is extremely hypocritical. It ignores context completely.

The Alliance are the only safe haven the Ren'dorei have left, they *have* to go to war with the rest of the Horde, or the Alliance will kick them out.

The moment you accuse the Ren'dorei of this, you are erasing context and acting hypocritically.

From dialogue with Alleria and Magister Umbric, it is clear that the Ren'dorei take no pleasure in the war, and would rather bring Quel'Thalas back into the fold diplomatically.

What are the Ren'dorei supposed to do? Refuse the call to war? Then they would be kicked out of the Alliance. There is no other way, their hands are forced.

[Lochton]

Accusing Alleria and the Ren'dorei of waging war against the Horde is extremely hypocritical. It ignores context completely.

The Alliance are the only safe haven the Ren'dorei have left, they *have* to go to war with the rest of the Horde, or the Alliance will kick them out.

The moment you accuse the Ren'dorei of this, you are erasing context and acting hypocritically.

From dialogue with Alleria and Magister Umbric, it is clear that the Ren'dorei take no pleasure in the war, and would rather bring Quel'Thalas back into the fold diplomatically.

What are the Ren'dorei supposed to do? Refuse the call to war? Then they would be kicked out of the Alliance. There is no other way, their hands are forced.

You can still be considered a traitor even if you do not enjoy it. You are fighting with the enemy, and the Ren'dorei has been used as tools more often than a High Elf has, and they've been around for much longer.

[Rozz]

The only part I can see them as being traitors, are with Alleria and the Void Elves, actively waging war against the Horde. All other situations have the HE's and BE's separated without too much combat, heck, even worked together in many situations. And we're not talking about the 4th Elven faction, which I consider complete treason, the ones who selected to join Prince Keal'thas in Outland.

They are at least considered as such by Silvermoon, since they view Kael as losing his way and abandoning the kingdom. Vareesa lost her claims of neutral opposition (to me) with Dalaran and continuing to believe her way is the one that she needs to convince BEs to 'return to'. If either run and support troops/efforts to directly counter or attack Silvermoon and its own the traitor label is fair to argue from my pov. You could also argue the BEs betrayed them and the HE ideology and that's fine too.

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Accusing Alleria and the Ren'dorei of waging war against the Horde is extremely hypocritical. It ignores context completely.

The Alliance are the only safe haven the Ren'dorei have left, they *have* to go to war with the rest of the Horde, or the Alliance will kick them out.

The moment you accuse the Ren'dorei of this, you are erasing context and acting hypocritically.

From dialogue with Alleria and Magister Umbric, it is clear that the Ren'dorei take no pleasure in the war, and would rather bring Quel'Thalas back into the fold diplomatically.

What are the Ren'dorei supposed to do? Refuse the call to war? Then they would be kicked out of the Alliance. There is no other way, their hands are forced.

It's not hypocritical, they are traitors. That's the same reason why Saurfang and his lot weren't called 'loyalists' despite the narrative painting them in the right. It's less about morals and more of where your allegiances lie and who you're fighting against. They betrayed the larger faction and its leadership. Sylvanas betrayed them and the Horde.

[Varodoc]

They were exiled. They had every right to join the enemy at that point.

And the Blood elves are actual traitors for turning against Garrosh.

[sighy]

They were exiled. They had every right to join the enemy at that point.

And the Blood elves are actual traitors for turning against Garrosh.

By your logic they are not, because they only took actiona gainst him, after he declared them and i quote "No longer a part of his Horde.".

That said, if a Void/High Elf was captured then the Kingdom of Quel'thalas would ahve every right to try and punish them for high treason accordingly, instead of any PoW stuff.

[Varodoc]

By your logic they are not, because they only took actiona gainst him, after he declared them and i quote "No longer a part of his Horde.".

That said, if a Void/High Elf was captured then the Kingdom of Quel'thalas would ahve every right to try and punish them for high treason accordingly, instead of any PoW stuff.

It's almost like the point is that accusing the Ren'dorei of treason is hypocritical and following the same logic we can accuse the Blood elves too.

That said, if a Void/High Elf was captured then the Kingdom of Quel'thalas would ahve every right to try and punish them for high treason accordingly, instead of any PoW stuff.

A non-argument, since the reverse is also true.

And the same is also true for Garrosh/Sylvanas and the Blood elves.

So in the end, either all elves are traitors to Quel'Thalas, or you accept that Theron has NO MORAL HIGH GROUND WHATSOEVER.

[Rozz]

A non-argument, since the reverse is also true.

And the same is also true for Garrosh/Sylvanas and the Blood elves.

So in the end, either all elves are traitors to Quel'Thalas, or you accept that Theron has NO MORAL HIGH GROUND WHATSOEVER.

So being a traitor to Garrosh or Sylvanas makes you a traitor to Quel'Thalas? I really don't understand how you made that conclusion then went to talk about Theron's morals...

All of these betrayals can be true at the same time and still result in VEs being against the interests of BEs and their leadership.

[Varodoc]

So being a traitor to Garrosh or Sylvanas makes you a traitor to Quel'Thalas? I really don't understand how you made that conclusion then went to talk about Theron's morals...

All of these betrayals can be true at the same time and still result in VEs being against the interests of BEs and their leadership.

The Warchief is the supreme ruler of Quel'Thalas, a member state of the Horde. The Horde is a dictatorship ruled by the Warchief. So Yes, the moment Theron rebelled against Garrosh/Sylvanas, he rebelled against the lawful ruler of Quel'Thalas.

All of these betrayals can be true at the same time and still result in VEs being against the interests of BEs and their leadership.

It's pretty obvious that whenever people here try to claim the Ren'dorei are "traitors", they do so to try and paint them as the villains. Since treason is synonymous with evil many times. So let's make some things clear. If the Ren'dorei are traitors to Quel'Thalas, so is Theron for rebelling against the Warchief (lawful ruler of Quel'Thalas/Horde).

[sighy]

It's almost like the point is that accusing the Ren'dorei of treason is hypocritical and following the same logic we can accuse the Blood elves too.



A non-argument, since the reverse is also true.

And the same is also true for Garrosh/Sylvanas and the Blood elves.

So in the end, either all elves are traitors to Quel'Thalas, or you accept that Theron has NO MORAL HIGH GROUND WHATSOEVER.

How does Garrosh even relate to the relationship between Quel'thalas the Kingdom and Void Elves? They got kicked out of the city, for public endangerment and then joined the currently at war enemy faction. As far as Quel'thalas is concerned they've commited high treason on top of all the other shit, when they took up arms against it.

It's just whataboutism attempting to derail and distract, from the topic at hand. If anything the whole mess around Scryers in outland would be a vastly superior example of Blood Elf PC comitting treason.

[Lochton]

They were exiled. They had every right to join the enemy at that point.

And the Blood elves are actual traitors for turning against Garrosh.

But.. By this logic, so are VE's and HE's, they're all traitors? Everyone has gone against their leadership.

[Varodoc]

How does Garrosh even relate to the relationship between Quel'thalas the Kingdom and Void Elves? They got kicked out of the city, for public endangerment and then joined the currently at war enemy faction. As far as Quel'thalas is concerned they've commited high treason on top of all the other shit, when they took up arms against it.

It's just whataboutism attempting to derail and distract, from the topic at hand. If anything the whole mess around Scryers in outland would be a vastly superior example of Blood Elf PC comitting treason.

The Fourth War hadn't started yet when the Ren'dorei joined the Alliance.

But.. By this logic, so are VE's and HE's, they're all traitors? Everyone has gone against their leadership.

So Lor'themar Theorn has NO right to accuse the Ren'dorei of treason when he himself is a traitor. Twice.

Something that this OP does NOT address at all.

[Rozz]

The Warchief is the supreme ruler of Quel'Thalas, a member state of the Horde. The Horde is a dictatorship ruled by the Warchief. So Yes, the moment Theron rebelled against Garrosh/Sylvanas, he rebelled against the lawful ruler of Quel'Thalas.



It's pretty obvious that whenever people here try to claim the Ren'dorei are "traitors", they do so to try and paint them as the villains. Since treason is synonymous with evil many times. So let's make some things clear. If the Ren'dorei are traitors to Quel'Thalas, so is Theron for rebelling against the Warchief (lawful ruler of Quel'Thalas/Horde).

I'm gonna have to disagree, bc your basis is that Garrrosh has to be their racial leader since he's their faction leader which is not true. That's an intense skew to force an argument you're only suspecting people of making.

[Amnaught]

Im never going to get over how weird it is that Blizzard decided to take the Blood Elves, famous for using taboo fel magic, and decided that the splinter group should just be using MORE evil magic than the Blood Elves were comfortable with, and then flee to the Lightforged and Humans instead of like.... Undercity who would have LOVED some more shadow shit to play with.

Why should Silvermoon and Undercity reject them, but the Vindicaar and Stormwind not?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Real question tho, do the people that call the Purge of Dalaran a genocide actually believe it's the same magnitude of atrocity than the Burning of Teldrassil, or are they being disingenuous?

[Varodoc]

I'm gonna have to disagree, bc your basis is that Garrrosh has to be their racial leader since he's their faction leader which is not true. That's an intense skew to force an argument you're only suspecting people of making.

The Warchief is the ruler of all Horde lands, he can do whatever he wants with them. That's why Warchief Thrall had the authority to replace the "Undercity police" with his own guards.

So my problem with this topic, whenever it comes up, is that the Blood elves' history of betrayals is conveniently ignored, and all focus is put on the Alliance elves. Almost as in to give the moral high gorund to Theron and co. When they, in fact, don't have it.

Even in BfA we saw that the Blood elves yet again went against the lawful Warchief, with Theron conspiring with the Alliance to free Baine.

There is no suspicion. Why is the topic thread focusing only on the Alliance elves then? Would it not be fair to include Lor'themar in the list of people who might have betrayed Quel'Thalas?

[Rozz]

Real question tho, do the people that call the Purge of Dalaran a genocide actually believe it's the same magnitude of atrocity than the Burning of Teldrassil, or are they being disingenuous?

Disingenuous and no better than the people who instigate about Stormheim, Southshore, etc.

We can have multiple atrocities on different scales, but instead of accepting that it's all whataboutism to deflect from the current topic. The burning did to NEs what Arthas did to BEs. That's a massive scale of death that is disturbingly overlooked in lore. Dalaran was merely kicking a dead horse, Teldrassil made another horse to kick.

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The Warchief is the ruler of all Horde lands, he can do whatever he wants with them. That's why Warchief Thrall had the authority to replace the "Undercity police" with his own guards.

So my problem with this topic, whenever it comes up, is that the Blood elves' history of betrayals is conveniently ignored, and all focus is put on the Alliance elves. Almost as in to give the moral high gorund to Theron and co. When they, in fact, don't have it.

Even in BfA we saw that the Blood elves yet again went against the lawful Warchief, with Theron conspiring with the Alliance to free Baine.

There is no suspicion. Why is the topic thread focusing only on the Alliance elves then? Would it not be fair to include Lor'themar in the list of people who might have betrayed Quel'Thalas?

No, because I don't agree with your logic but that's fine as it's all opinions anyways. I do think everyone has played a role as the betrayer and betrayed to some extent, but not the way you do.

[shise]

No more than the entire Blood Elf faction are traitors to the alliance.

It is pretty much the other way around, but then again, it was a thing of the past. THe current Alliance is not to be blamed.

Blood elves were going to join the Alliance.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Disingenuous and no better than the people who instigate about Stormheim, Southshore, etc.

We can have multiple atrocities on different scales, but instead of accepting that it's all whataboutism to deflect from the current topic. The burning did to NEs what Arthas did to BEs. That's a massive scale of death that is disturbingly overlooked in lore. Dalaran was merely kicking a dead horse, Teldrassil made another horse to kick

It's just so tiring to have any discussion about it. How can you talk about the fallout and repercussions of these massive events when you conflate them to the same magnitude of everything else that has happened?

Like come on, wasting time trying to explain why it's not the same makes the whole thing a bad faith argument from the get go. Do I really have to explain why the radical difference on loss of life and magnitude of the destruction makes both things not comparable

We can talk about how The Purge of Dalaran was a war crime without having to compare it to Teldrassil, specially without clowns saying "Um actually, the Purge as more of a genocide than Teldrassil, technically speaking."

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It is pretty much the other way around, but then again, it was a thing of the past. THe current Alliance is not to be blamed.

Blood elves were going to join the Alliance.

It's almost like the whole concept of "treason" is subjective to who is holding the power of a nation/group mmm.

[saintminya]

It's just so tiring to have any discussion about it. How can you talk about the fallout and repercussions of these massive events when you conflate them to the same magnitude of everything else that has happened?

Like come on, wasting time trying to explain why it's not the same makes the whole thing a bad faith argument from the get go. Do I really have to explain why the radical difference on loss of life and magnitude of the destruction makes both things not comparable

We can talk about how The Purge of Dalaran was a war crime without having to compare it to Teldrassil, specially without clowns saying "Um actually, the Purge as more of a genocide than Teldrassil, technically speaking."

The events are not of the same magnitude, with the burning of Teldrassil absolutely being worse since an entire city was destroyed. Teldrassil had more casualties on each side of the conflict as well. The burning was an atrocious act of war. The Purge was an atrocious act of genocide, resulting in an unknown number of exclusively Blood Elf casualties. It is disingenous to believe no comparison can be made between the two events when both can at least loosely be termed genocides, and were ill-concieved acts of desperation. It is pretty messed up to downplay the impact of one atrocity due to it not resulting in nearly as much destruction though. An atrocity is still an atrocity after some arguably worse event happens.