[TV] The Wheel of Time

[rhorle]

I think the additions like Perrin's wife and Matt's sister were good calls, the problem with translating the book is that much of the suspense that makes it exciting is built up through description and internal dialogue - how do you do that in a film? or series to get the same effect.. so i think they took a shortcut and invented things about the others and showed things the books don't really mention to build the story.

Matt is fine other then him being more of a thief then a prankster. Maybe I just missed that in the books early on but it never came across that way to me. Perrin though I hate since him not having a family ties in perfectly with his abilities and role later. Killing his wife (or having one in the first place) changes that dynamic a little. He isn't the "lone wolf" with out a family anymore. He just lost his wife. It also sucked they didn't cover his abilities a little bit more in episode 3. They really should have included Elyas somehow even if just as a figure on the tree line.

Instead of the axe and weapons of war thing it looks like it will be fear of hurting loved ones. It will be interesting to see how the tinkers interact with his character given the changes.

The show is a good fantasy. Good "inspired by" the books but I still think it is a poor adaptation with some of the changes so far. And I hated the musical score during the Thom scenes. It is weirdly out of place. Also good point about the wheel and who is bound to it. Changes the importance of characters and actions and the meaning of Ta'veren, Pattern, and Wheel.

[Acidbaron]

Haven't read the books and went in with zero expectations and watched all 3 episodes this weekend and they were a pleasure to watch, it is a well constructed show so far.

Reading comments on how it does not really follow the book for me is actually a good sign, as that means there is freedom allowed in moving it to another medium and allows people to do what works for this format rather than just sticking true to the books. Fans of an existing franchise are in general not a good target audience as they are highly critical as what it is never matches what it should be in their minds. I do believe there should be some quality control when a franchise changes medium but this is not a poorly made show so i am happy with the direction they took.

I personally enjoyed it when they started speaking about the history of places and people what gives a fantasy story more substance.

[Shadowferal]

Reading comments on how it does not really follow the book for me is actually a good sign, as that means there is freedom allowed in moving it to another medium and allows people to do what works for this format rather than just sticking true to the books. Fans of an existing franchise are in general not a good target audience as they are highly critical as what it is never matches what it should be in their minds. I do believe there should be some quality control when a franchise changes medium but this is not a poorly made show so i am happy with the direction they took.

Yea... I really wish they dismissed the fans of the books with GoT. /s

[Acidbaron]

Yea... I really wish they dismissed the fans of the books with GoT. /s

So far i know the books and series have their differences and if you want to go into detail about that series you will have to find another thread and person to be honest.
Staying true to the books do not make a series better due to it, neither does it make it worse. It does allow for more freedom and better adaptation of the material, so long the big lines remain the same i see no harm done.

So yes i stand by my point that not using the hardcore fans of a franchise as the benchmark for your adaptation being it a movie, series or game is a good move. I do not feel the fans are entitled to anything, and i find that sense of entitlement to be really misplaced however the internet is full of armchair experts so it is to be expected

[Nihilist74]

Never read the books. The trailers for this show looks like a lame renaissance fair. I'll give it a shot and watch it though.

[Xath]

If they were worried about equality, they would not have made Egwene Ta’Veren. In the books, only her and Nynaeve had any personal agency as it was their choice to leave the Two Rivers with Rand, Mat and Perrin. In making her Ta’Veren she no longer has any agency as the Wheel is going to push in the direction of fate and prophecy.

Yeah but that would require actual thought and enjoyment of the series to understand. They just see Ta'Vern as special and don't understand they are forced into the direction the wheel wills.

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YOu guys realise that the "one of your four is the Dragon" is because of pople that has NOT read the books. Too keep them hooked on the "who is the Dragon?"

Also i cannot see the Dragon being any other then Rand. And also if the Dragon had been women, does that mean they would channel Saidin?

Because Moiraine was literally in the room while Gitra had the foretelling she and Siuan are the only living people to have witnessed that foretelling in which she said he multiple times. It doesn't work for Moiraine to not know it. If you write Gitra out you also write out that she was the one who told Tigraine she must journey into the waste and join the Sisters of the Spear for the sake of the world which is a pretty freaking important part of the storyline.

It's also insanely insulting to claim that Moiraine would have no interest in Egwene of Nynaeve if not for the dragon she as much as says she would straight up kidnap them to bring them back to the tower because their power dwarfs that of any Aes Sedai in 100s of years. Egwene doesn't need to be "special" for Moiraine to want her because she and Nynaeve dwarf evey Aes Sedai in power outside Elayne and I don't think Moiraine even knows about Elayne at that time.

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So far i know the books and series have their differences and if you want to go into detail about that series you will have to find another thread and person to be honest.
Staying true to the books do not make a series better due to it, neither does it make it worse. It does allow for more freedom and better adaptation of the material, so long the big lines remain the same i see no harm done.

So yes i stand by my point that not using the hardcore fans of a franchise as the benchmark for your adaptation being it a movie, series or game is a good move. I do not feel the fans are entitled to anything, and i find that sense of entitlement to be really misplaced however the internet is full of armchair experts so it is to be expected

Here's a hint the exact moment when GoT went off the rails was when they ran out of book material.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I’ve only gone through the first episode so far and I can’t say in a big fan of the changes to
Matt she Perrin.

I don’t have the best memory of the first book( and I had the abridged version) but Matt being a legit theft coming from a broken family is a huge unneeded departure from just being a bit of a scandal who I want to said had a perfectly fine family who was just a bit disappointed in him.

And the Perrin changes just seem like a complete bastardization with none of the super helpful hard working seemingly slow but actually just thoughtful parts coming through in any way. My friend even pointed out that Perrin’s wife seems to start the show with more of his actual characteristics and it might have just been better off to have her take his place and just play out the story the same but with her instead, not sure if I agree with that but I can see why they came to such a conclusion.

Other then those two though the show seems fine even if some things like nyneve being kidnaped is unneeded and the one power weaving looks fairly awful.

[Shadowferal]

Here's a hint the exact moment when GoT went off the rails was when they ran out of book material.

If nothing else, Rafe doesn't have that excuse.

[Theangryone]

I don’t know if I had an idea in my head what weaving the one power looked like, but it definitely didn’t look like tripping balls at burning man.

[Arikara]

Mostly true. This was a major point that gets turned sideways for a later plot twist because the dark one does as they please and some MAJOR villains are brought back rule63'd for a major surprise as a female wielding Saidin turns more than a few through a loop.

Yeah but TDO meddling with Balthamel just proves the rule that in WoT, the gender of the soul is the more important thing. If Balthamel hadn't ended up getting balefire'd, and, say, hadn't been reincarnated by TDO, he'd still have been reborn as a male eventually.

But it seems these writers are too chickenshit to respect any of Jordan's worldbuilding.

[Rennadrel]

If nothing else, Rafe doesn't have that excuse.

There's absolutely ZERO excuse to be meddling with the story aside from cutting out filler storytelling which was part of RJ's world building. Most of the event sequences that happen in the books have some importance to the development of the story.

[Xath]

Then use a better analogy.

Rotten food is universally bad, and you were making that direct comparison of being offered food that is considered universally bad. That's not a preference, that's not criticism of the food itself, it's just pointing out something that was universally considered wrong. So I seriously did understand the analogy, and am pointing out that it's not an analogy that you should have made.

Nor does the pork and chicken salad work either, since it's obvious you're ordering the wrong thing rather than the network serving you something you didn't order at all. A better analogy is if you ordered a pork sandwich knowing it's a pork sandwich but you didn't expect it prepared in a way that offended your preferences, like if they added cranberry sauce or too much mayo for your tastes. And that's fine if that is your criticism, but it's really not applicable to saying they served you the wrong food when you're not the only customer at the restaurant, and the analogy would imply that the restaurant serves other guests and not just you. You didn't make an analogy about a personal chef, right? You said restaurant, so the analogy would imply that others are being served the same thing. And if we take a look at your particular criticisms and compare them to that of the general state of the series; well there's quite a disconnect between your personal beefs and considering it as them serving everyone the wrong meal.

If you want an analogy that applies to your personal criticisms, then you shouldn't be making comparisons to a restaurant that serves every customer the same meal while making the criticism that they're serving you the wrong one, which implies that they're pushing this problem on to everyone else and other people are dealing with the problem in their own way. But really, it's not a problem at all, it's just a matter of changes, for better or worse. That comes with being an adaptation, and not a close-to-the-source direct translation of the book.



I'm not the one making analogies about the series being equivalent of universally bad rotten food. If that's the analogy you made, that's the message you pushed across, whether you intended to or not.

As I said, nothing wrong with you presenting your personal opinion. But if you're going to make an analogy out of it, then work on communicating it more properly, because the ones you used only consider how you personally feel, while you're using examples that apply much more broadly and to a wider audience than yourself. By implying 'the restaurant serves moldy food' you also imply that this restaurant serves rotten food to everyone, since we're all literally consuming the same content. We're eating the same meal as you are here. It might not be what you want to say, but that's all a part of your analogy.

And my point is, even though the show is far from great (IMO), it's clearly not considered rotten, at least not in the way you presented your analogy. The analogy only works for your particular tastes if we're talking about everyone being able to order a different meal, but let's remember we're literally talking about the same show, the same meal, and there's no way the restaurant can single you out and present the wrong meal while everyone else has theirs correct. The analogy doesn't work that way with this type of content. We're all consuming the exact same thing. If the food is rotten, then everyone's food is rotten. That's how the analogy applies here. There's no menu of options of 'Wheel of Time TV series'. It's one series we're all talking about.



The creators have their choices. I'm in no position to defend their choices since I don't vouch for decisions like this. I simply don't see it as impactful as you do when considering if the Dragon Reborn could be a woman or not.

The way I interpret the TV series, Moraine has taken the 4 away to protect them. In the context of this adaptation, the viewers don't know who or what the Dragon is, yet they know the 4 characters are important. If it was a clear 'he/him', then we automatically know Egwene is not the important one. Yet the show clearly wants to illustrate some importance onto her character, and keep it ambiguous since she was so far the only one in the show who shows any skill in 'magical powers' at that point in the show. I would consider this the writers wanting to add in a minor red herring to keep the audience guessing. For the book readers who know the ins and out, this will seem like a travesty, but for a casual TV series watcher, it opens up people vouching for Egwene (or even Nynaeve) as a possible candidate and helps get people get invested into the character.

Is it a good change? Can't say either way, since the series is completely new and I don't know any casual peeps talking about this show yet. But the way I see the change as a casual audience goer, this is clearly written with purpose to elevate interest in the female character. And whether this pays off or not is something we have to see in retrospect. It really depends on how loosely they want to adapt this and how many 'moments' they want to give Egwene over the course of the series to make her more of a fan favourite. The way I see this is similar to Arwen having more 'moments' in the LOTR beyond her very limited appearances in the book. It's to give more investment and interest in the character to a broader audience, and for that I don't really see it as a 'good or bad' thing. I simply see it as a change made in an adaptation which has its own purposes as a different medium than a novel.

I'd almost say it's like how the Mandalorian spent the entire first season setting up the rules of being a Mandalorian, which went against a whole bunch of established Star Wars lore like Mandalorians being able to take off their helmets (Sabine Wren, the Mandalorians in Clone Wars and Rebels). So something like that was a huge setup that ended up being pretty much a 'red herring' once we find out that Mando is part of some fringe cult and that it's not how the world outside actually regards Mandalorians or what they know. It gets clarified back to the original canon. I can kinda see this happen the same way eventually, when the Dragon Reborn is finally unveiled everyone just moves past the 'She' part as if it never really mattered since the canon remains the same after we find out who it is anyways. But hey, I'm not a hardcore WoT fan so I can't speak out on how important this really is, all I'm presenting is a possible (clear to me) reason why they changed this, and why overall I don't think it will be world-changing in the end. Again, I'm neither defending or denouncing the changes, I'm simply pointing out why I think they exist and for what reasons, and why I don't think they're going to matter much in the end. If there's something more defined from the books about the Dragon having to be male for XYZ reasons, then it's obvious the TV series hasn't really adhered to the same rulesets since it's not establishing any hard rules that the Dragon must be a male (at least not from Moraine's POV).

The creator of the story is dead. So no these changes are not being approved by the creator.

[Nynax]

So far i know the books and series have their differences and if you want to go into detail about that series you will have to find another thread and person to be honest.
Staying true to the books do not make a series better due to it, neither does it make it worse. It does allow for more freedom and better adaptation of the material, so long the big lines remain the same i see no harm done.

So yes i stand by my point that not using the hardcore fans of a franchise as the benchmark for your adaptation being it a movie, series or game is a good move. I do not feel the fans are entitled to anything, and i find that sense of entitlement to be really misplaced however the internet is full of armchair experts so it is to be expected

I have to disagree. Lord of the Rings, early Game of Thrones, Harry Potter...all very faithful adaptations that followed the books characters and development closely. They showed the source material the respect it deserved and came out extremely successful. I understand The Expanse to be following similar lines.

What they did not do is decide Aragorn would be more relatable if he was more visually depressed. Or decide to ship Harry and Hermione because it's "more realistic." And, well, we know what happened to GoT when they took the story into their own hands. While each of the above franchises did cut content, minor characters, and skip some plot points they were careful to keep all the important subtle details. Whether or not new viewers understood them didn't matter, that's foreshadowing.

It's the shows that change characters to make them "for TV," change or remove subtle details and meaningful points "for TV," those souls remove the soul of the story and of the characters. Even if it seems "fine" I guarantee people feel it, and it never bodes well for the future success of the show. What unhappy fans are noticing is the soul of the story being drained away by someone that thinks they can make it "better" for TV.

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The creator of the story is dead. So no these changes are not being approved by the creator.

They even have a quote saying they often "agreed to disagree" with Sanderson, closest we have to a living author, and push on with w/e they wanted.

In a reddit Sanderson himself says to "think of this as another turning of the wheel" and try not to look for the same story the books told.

[Theangryone]

The creator of the story is dead. So no these changes are not being approved by the creator.

Branden Sanderson is credited as being a producer. The show runner has already said that when Branden tells him things he figures he should listen but that there have been times where he said Sanderson says something is not going to work and they just have to agree to disagree and does what he wants because the show will be better for it.

[Gigantique]

Mostly true. This was a major point that gets turned sideways for a later plot twist because the dark one does as they please and some MAJOR villains are brought back rule63'd for a major surprise as a female wielding Saidin turns more than a few through a loop.

Well yes, the fact Shaitan does this is complete lunacy to everyone in the stories, he essentially stuffs male/female souls into their opposite bodies. But Moiraine's line saying the Dragon could be either hamstrings that entire plot twist because now any reincarnated soul can be either sex.

The weirdest part for me is that WoT is stuffed with excellent and powerful women. Rand spends most of the entire series being a brave, stupid and stubborn woolhead while the women around him guide him or in Cadsuane's case beat him into reason. A lot of older works need to have representation in them. WoT wasn't one of them. Hell I'd even argue they could have stuck the ethnicities to where they "belong" in the stories (as in have copper skinned actors play Domani etc. I don't think Asians are represented in the original works so making say the Borderlands of that ethnicity or replace other nations similarly would have been fine by me, but seeing as Jordan put so much emphasis on how the different nations' inhabitants had such distinct features makes the melting pot of the show feel like a slight

And c'mon, the Aiel would have let PoC get possibly one of the coolest, most badass people in fantasy literature take the main stage from book 3 until the end. It does look like that is the plan seeing as the dead Aiel was cast that way, but the impact is lessened imo when everyone else is just a mishmash

[Xath]

Branden Sanderson is credited as being a producer. The show runner has already said that when Branden tells him things he figures he should listen but that there have been times where he said Sanderson says something is not going to work and they just have to agree to disagree and does what he wants because the show will be better for it.

Which is another reason this dip should have never been entrusted with wheel.

[Triceron]

Which is another reason this dip should have never been entrusted with wheel.

Adaptations are adaptations. Those who only view it as it being a direct translation will keep that wheel of ignorance turning.

It's never going to be like the book, no matter how hard they try. At best you could have is a glorified audiobook with real actors portraying the characters, but that's it.

[Shadowferal]

Review: This ‘Wheel of Time’ Goes Nowhere Fast

Amazon’s ambitious fantasy adaptation is bursting with magic and monsters, but it’s no heir to the “Thrones.”

[Frogguh]

So I decided to treat this series like Dragon Ball, with the manga and anime telling the same basic story but in different ways. That way I can judge the series on its own merit, rather than simply based on changes from the books.

Right out of the gate, implying that the Dragon could be a woman is a big problem for lore down the road. On the surface it works as a mystery device to cloud who the Dragon is for new viewers, but the possibility of a female Dragon minimizes the danger the Dragon represents. It's not simply as a herald of the Last Battle that people fear the Dragon - he broke the world and can do it again with his rebirth, because Saidin is tainted and only men use Saidin.

I see no real reason to make Egwene a ta'veren, though Moiraine allows for the possibility that she could be in the book. Since it will likely have no impact on her character arc, just seems like a progressive move rather than a story improvement.

The changes to Perrin and Mat's backstories works for me in order to distinguish their character mindsets from Rand's. Perrin's aversion to violence and struggle with the savagery of the wolf, Mat's hardened ways masking a good man underneath, and so on. Not to mention a certain theory about Perrin's wife that I'm interested to see play out if it turns out to be true.

Rather than emphasizing male nudity, I'd prefer they simply remove nudity entirely. I frankly don't want to see Lan's hairless butt.

In the conversation between Nynaeve and Moiraine, it is implied that Nynaeve is already aware that "listening to the wind" involves the One Power, as she relates the story of her mentor traveling to the Tower and getting rejected for being a poor wilder. If she isn't aware of that connection despite knowing her mentor went to the Tower, then she's an idiot. But if she does know, then that screws with the story of her block in using the Power. I didn't think that was a good move.

Tam being defeated by a single Trolloc was a huge disservice to his character, unless the sword he used was not heron marked. Perhaps the show won't use the heron mark blade as a plot point.

Moiraine telling them in Emond's Field that one of them is the Dragon Reborn is not well done, I think. Their low-key reactions, the strongest being Mat telling her she's gone off her rocker, does nothing to show the fear of the Dragon that is supposed to exist. Had she annouced that from the beginning in the book, they'd have likely refused to accompany her.

The Whitecloaks burn an Aes Sedai at the stake. Her hands are cut off and she is not using the power to escape. I'm hoping they don't require hands to use the Power in this adaptation, and instead ambushed her and doused her with that forkroot tea that inhibits channeling. Hand motions being required to channel would be disappointing, to say the least. Also, there is no way even the most well-adjusted Whitecloak would recommend someone go to the Aes Sedai for healing, unless this version of the Children is far less zealous and only the Questioners are rabid.

The introduction of the Traveling People is very creepy, which is pretty ridiculous once their life philosophy is revealed. They would never emerge all around someone in a fog and stare blankly at them simply because they don't know the proper response to whether they know the song.

All of that said, I like most of the cast so far, with Egwene, Mat, and Thom being particular highlights. I'm especially pleased that Egwene is likable, since I despised her book character. I thought depictions of the villains - the Trollocs, Fades, and darkfriends - were well done, and the dream sequences were appropriately jarring, though I'm not yet convinced on the physical depiction of Ba'alzamon. They are staying largely true to the essence of the story, with only their desire to appease the pro-transgender Twitter mob being a looming problem for the series down the road.

I'm largely pleased with the series, and I say this as a huge fan of the books, only liking the Malazan series more.

[Witchblade77]

excuse me, I just puked in my mouth a little.

I am so.

tired

of every

fantasy

series

adaptation

being compared

to game of thrones.
FFS

that said.. full disclosure. I haven't read the books, but I did go wiki browsing a LOT. overall, I liked the series for what it is, but I know intimately understand how people who haven't read Witcher books must have felt watching the show.

there is a lot that is happening where watchers knowledge of the background just seems to be... assuming. they are trying to practically gallop through world building and character introductions and I'll be honest, I had trouble remembering who what why how, let alone realizing what was foreshadowing and what was just nifty little details without supplementary reading.

it seems to me like series created by fans, for fans. which is not inherently a bad thing. and its nice to have another fantasy series that is not trying to distance itself from being fantasy, and instead leans into it.