Zereth Mortis

[username993720]

The question wasn't if they exist.
The question is why does only shadowlands gets the reality 3d printer? What about the other 3D printers?

Either the printer only works on shadowlands and only shadowlands alone OR you need ALL cosmic force 3D printers to actually do any real changes to reality.

This is basic fantasy tropes. You need to master all elements, you need all the crystals, you need all the power morphing rangers to build the big robot.

Maybe there is. But Zovaal would only get access to the death one with the sigils.

Actually it states right in the encounter journal that he did. And while you need a blueprint, that doesn't make Zereth Mortis one. Zereth Mortis is the factory. The blueprints are just stored somewhere in it. The Emerald Dream was said to be the blueprint.

Can you link it? Is Zovaal a first one? Why would he be responsible for their creation? Or, is it like the Arbiter case where they manufactured one after they imprisoned him?

Blueprint as in prototype. You can see the mannequins, for humanoid creatures i guess, in the raid.
The Emerald Dream isn't a peace of paper or a concept. It is an actual place where the Titans, supposedly, experimented with different types of Azeroth.

[Rexosaurus]

There are definitely some similarities between the whole Titan thing and what we're seeing for this place.

I don't mind some similarities if it was intentional and there's some reasoning there that will link the two. But if it was incidental because that's the only way that they can dream up a process of creation, then that's pretty disappointing that they would just reuse the whole shtick that the Titans have going on.

[huth]

Can you link it? Is Zovaal a first one? Why would he be responsible for their creation? Or, is it like the Arbiter case where they manufactured one after they imprisoned him?

Blueprint as in prototype. You can see the mannequins, for humanoid creatures i guess, in the raid.
The Emerald Dream isn't a peace of paper or a concept. It is an actual place where the Titans, supposedly, experimented with different types of Azeroth.

They aren't even done yet when we arrive. Some only finish printing during the encounter.

Also, blueprint never means prototype. Those are two completely seperate concepts. You're just talking nonsense there.

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If they can all do it then all cosmic forces can turn things back to normal making this whole expansion worthless.

Only if Zovaal fails, because otherwise, he's controlling all of them. So we still need to stop him.

[username993720]

They aren't even done yet when we arrive. Some only finish printing during the encounter.

Huh? Why would they need more of them? Or is the printer stuck and is extremely slow?

Also, blueprint never means prototype. Those are two completely seperate concepts. You're just talking nonsense there.

One's in paper, the other in product. Thing is, both are the precursor to the finished thing.
What i'm saying is that both have the same purpose - creating a finished product, which takes several attempts.

[Toho]

They aren't even done yet when we arrive. Some only finish printing during the encounter.

Also, blueprint never means prototype. Those are two completely seperate concepts. You're just talking nonsense there.

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Only if Zovaal fails, because otherwise, he's controlling all of them. So we still need to stop him.

That literally makes no sense.
Each has their own Zereth otherwise the whole shadow vs Light war would be over as soon as one of them decides to use their Zereth.
Why fight a war when you can delete the enemy by pressing 1 button.

There is a cancelling effect going on here, there has to be.

[Nerovar]

Does anyone else feel like it is similar to the Emerald Dream?

Like everything in the Shadowlands, it's all just a rehash of concepts from older lore with some trite twist applied to it. It's exactly the type of writing that tries to disguise the fact that its writers don't have a single original bone in their bodies by trying to elevate their blatantly copied bullshit with a smokescreen of vague, meaningless concepts. They're fishing in muddy waters.

[Toho]

There are definitely some similarities between the whole Titan thing and what we're seeing for this place.

I don't mind some similarities if it was intentional and there's some reasoning there that will link the two. But if it was incidental because that's the only way that they can dream up a process of creation, then that's pretty disappointing that they would just reuse the whole shtick that the Titans have going on.

First ones is just the new writers attempt trying to redo the Titans original lore.

Thats literally all they are.

[huth]

Huh? Why would they need more of them? Or is the printer stuck and is extremely slow?

Do you have memory issues? Zovaal is the one that started their printing, and he only did so after the events 9.1.

One's in paper, the other in product. Thing is, both are the precursor to the finished thing.
What i'm saying is that both have the same purpose - creating a finished product, which takes several attempts.

Yeah, ok, you have no clue what you're talking about. A prototype is a test version.

A blueprint is simply a document of some sort detailing the design of an object. It is not a test version or preliminary result and does not even have to be produced before the object.
If you want to get overly technical, it's only referring to older such documents that were made by blueprinting, and does not even refer to what they depict, but how they were created.

They do not have the same purpose at all. One is to test and evaluate the design. The other is to store it for future use.
Saying they're both the same is like saying scissors are like a wrecking ball since both are used to make things smaller.

That literally makes no sense.
Each has their own Zereth otherwise the whole shadow vs Light war would be over as soon as one of them decides to use their Zereth.
Why fight a war when you can delete the enemy by pressing 1 button.

There is a cancelling effect going on here, there has to be.

Well, normally access to Zereth Mortis would have required unanimous consent of all major Covenants and the Arbiter. It stands to reason the other forces have similar limitations. You seem to work under the presumption they can just waltz in there and do whatever.

[Toho]

Well, normally, access to Zereth Mortis would have required unanimous consent of all major Covenants and the Arbiter. It stands to reason the other forces have similar limitations. You seem to work under the presumption they can just waltz in there and do whatever.

Right so if the other cosmic forces see that the Shadowlands Zereth is starting to be used they will start up their own to counter it.
The reason why the Jailor had to steal all the sigils was because everyone else who had them refused to use them or give it to him to use it and instead held them...

Lets not even talk about how you can just make new sigils but it seems pretty clear that if the leaders of each covenant had a sigil each and if suddenly there is another cosmic force threatning to end them with their own Zereth 3D printer they would just get together and fire up their own Zereth to counter it. Because we have clearly seen the other covenants speak with each other and cooperate.

Which creates the stalemate which explains no one else has fired up their Zereth system to end their cosmic force opponent.
This is a pretty simple concept, I don't understand why you are having such a difficult time understanding it.

[huth]

Right so if the other cosmic forces see that the Shadowlands Zereth is starting to be used they will start up their own to counter it.
The reason why the Jailor had to steal all the sigils was because everyone else who had them refused to use them or give it to him to use it and instead held them...

Lets not even talk about how you can just make new sigils but it seems pretty clear that if the leaders of each covenant had a sigil each and if suddenly there is another cosmic force threatning to end them with their own Zereth 3D printer they would just get together and fire up their own Zereth to counter it. Because we have clearly seen the other covenants speak with each other and cooperate.

Which creates the stalemate which explains no one else has fired up their Zereth system to end their cosmic force opponent.
This is a pretty simple concept, I don't understand why you are having such a difficult time understanding it.

Er, yes. Except you completely forget to consider that none of that happens instantly, and Zovaal is acting extremely rapidly, especially for a force that normally doesn't consider centuries to be a particularly relevant timescale.

[username993720]

Do you have memory issues? Zovaal is the one that started their printing, and he only did so after the events 9.1.

Again, where does it say so and why?

Yeah, ok, you have no clue what you're talking about. A prototype is a test version.

A blueprint is simply a document of some sort detailing the design of an object. It is not a test version or preliminary result and does not even have to be produced before the object.
If you want to get overly technical, it's only referring to older such documents that were made by blueprinting, and does not even refer to what they depict, but how they were created.

They do not have the same purpose at all. One is to test and evaluate the design. The other is to store it for future use.
Saying they're both the same is like saying scissors are like a wrecking ball since both are used to make things smaller.

You think of the Emerald Dream as some kind of a document detailing how Azeroth would look like. They, obviously, went beyond this and already ran the "program" several times. Only one was successful, apparently. The other ones are still at the factory, just like those abadoned mannequins or even the prototype eternal ones (which you say are being printed instead of having been printed already).

Right so if the other cosmic forces see that the Shadowlands Zereth is starting to be used they will start up their own to counter it.
The reason why the Jailor had to steal all the sigils was because everyone else who had them refused to use them or give it to him to use it and instead held them...

Lets not even talk about how you can just make new sigils but it seems pretty clear that if the leaders of each covenant had a sigil each and if suddenly there is another cosmic force threatning to end them with their own Zereth 3D printer they would just get together and fire up their own Zereth to counter it. Because we have clearly seen the other covenants speak with each other and cooperate.

Which creates the stalemate which explains no one else has fired up their Zereth system to end their cosmic force opponent.
This is a pretty simple concept, I don't understand why you are having such a difficult time understanding it.

You can say it's the real-life equivalent of atomic bombs. Everyone's threatening to use it, but no one dares to actually do it (in fear of retaliation).

[Toho]

Er, yes. Except you completely forget to consider that none of that happens instantly, and Zovaal is acting extremely rapidly, especially for a force that normally doesn't consider centuries to be a particularly relevant timescale.

Again... moving quickly is irrelevant.
In the time before the creation of reality by proto-titans we call first ones any one of the cosmic forces who are constantly at war with each other could have used the Zereth in their own domain to destroy everyone else.

Except they didn't. Since we are talking about Void Lords who seek nothing but consume then we can actually assume its not that they didn't but actually couldn't.
Logically if the question is "who can reach the red button the quickess" then in the millions or trillions of years since the creation of reality someone would have pressed it first by now.

So clearly pressing it is not an automatic game over. Logically there is more to this and whatever the Jailor does the other Zereths will stop because otherwise the reality would have already been over with.

You can say it's the real-life equivalent of atomic bombs. Everyone's threatening to use it, but no one dares to actually do it (in fear of retaliation).

I very much doubt the cosmic forces of the void who seek to destroy reality anyway would have an sense of self preservation if it means they can eat everything in existance in the process.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

The zone looks so beautiful. I watched the exploration video. Now I'm just curious how the other Zereth realms look like.

[huth]

Again, where does it say so and why?

You should see a doctor about those memory problems. As i said before, in the Encounter Journal. You know, that ingame thing that gives you information about the boss battles?

Again... moving quickly is irrelevant.
In the time before the creation of reality by proto-titans we call first ones any one of the cosmic forces who are constantly at war with each other could have used the Zereth in their own domain to destroy everyone else.

What cosmic forces? What Zereths? If you go to the time before creation, neither of those exist.

[Zexaniro]

it's just a green korthia

[Rexosaurus]

First ones is just the new writers attempt trying to redo the Titans original lore.

Thats literally all they are.

Yeah, considering how creatively...challenged the Shadowlands story has been so far, I find that to be extremely likely and equally disappointing.

I just don't want to make a concrete declaration until I see literal proof of it. Let's call it the very last vestiges of my tendency to give people the benefit of the doubt.

[Kathranis]

I don't mind some similarities if it was intentional and there's some reasoning there that will link the two.

It was obviously intentional. The text in Grimoire already heavily emphasized the idea that there's a repeating fractal pattern to the universe that can be traced back to the First Ones. That means that the things done at the cosmic scale by the First Ones are echoed by their creations, and their creation's creations, and so forth, all the way down.

The Titans, being creations of Order, probably conformed the most strongly to the First Ones, seeking uniformity by perfectly mirroring the patterns the First Ones originally established. The other Pantheons are probably a bit more abstracted, but expect the same self-replicating patterns.

Like I said a few days ago, this is basically there way of creating a new pantheon of primal creator deities that will serve the role that the Titans originally had in the lore, before they became active participants in the story and, thus, mundane.

Another important thing to recognize about the emphasis they're putting on the Warcraft cosmology being fractal... is that it means we'll almost certainly see cyclical stories happening. It will "rhyme."

So, I'm gonna repeat my previous prediction: In the end, we're going to get a proper Pantheon of Disorder, led by perhaps the last surviving Progenitor. Chaos incarnate. Something beyond the scope of the Burning Legion. Zovaal will be their enemy, mustering Death to combat Disorder, as the Lich King mustered the Scourge to battle the Burning Legion. And Sargeras will be released from his prison to gain redemption and battle the Pantheon of Disorder, as Illidan was freed from his prison to fight the Legion.

[username993720]

You should see a doctor about those memory problems. As i said before, in the Encounter Journal. You know, that ingame thing that gives you information about the boss battles?

Then link it here, like i asked you.

[Rexosaurus]

It was obviously intentional. The text in Grimoire already heavily emphasized the idea that there's a repeating fractal pattern to the universe that can be traced back to the First Ones. That means that the things done at the cosmic scale by the First Ones are echoed by their creations, and their creation's creations, and so forth, all the way down.

The Titans, being creations of Order, probably conformed the most strongly to the First Ones, seeking uniformity by perfectly mirroring the patterns the First Ones originally established. The other Pantheons are probably a bit more abstracted, but expect the same self-replicating patterns.

Like I said a few days ago, this is basically there way of creating a new pantheon of primal creator deities that will serve the role that the Titans originally had in the lore, before they became active participants in the story and, thus, mundane.

Another important thing to recognize about the emphasis they're putting on the Warcraft cosmology being fractal... is that it means we'll almost certainly see cyclical stories happening. It will "rhyme."

So, I'm gonna repeat my previous prediction: In the end, we're going to get a proper Pantheon of Disorder, led by perhaps the last surviving Progenitor. Chaos incarnate. Something beyond the scope of the Burning Legion. Zovaal will be their enemy, mustering Death to combat Disorder, as the Lich King mustered the Scourge to battle the Burning Legion. And Sargeras will be released from his prison to gain redemption and battle the Pantheon of Disorder, as Illidan was freed from his prison to fight the Legion.

See, I really actually love the idea behind the whole "fractal" thing and repetitious events and themes. That's a cool story thread to pull on imo and there is a lot of potential for different stories and narrative direction within that idea.

It's just that it's abundantly clear that this was never part of the story of Warcraft, which by itself isn't necessarily bad. I don't have a problem with stories evolving and moving away from their origin. But Warcraft also has a problem with recycling storylines, so in combination with the fact that Warcraft was really never about that kind of stuff, it makes it seem extremely suspicious/lazy to me.

Like "oh, you think this is just BC/MoP/WotLK/WoD 2? Well it's because the universe is fractal in nature. Please keep buying our new expansions!"

Maybe they'll surprise me and I'll end up eating my words later. But I'm very doubtful that will happen.

[Toho]

What cosmic forces? What Zereths? If you go to the time before creation, neither of those exist.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHAT COSMIC FORCES?!
WHAT DO YOU THINK WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT SO FAR?!

Ok I am done wasting my time on your trolling.
I have explained myself 4 times now and its clear you are trolling.

And if you aren't then I suggest you really work on your reading and critical thinking skills because what I am trying to communicate to you is not at all difficult to grasp.

This is why I hate talking to wow lore fans, its just incredible what you encounter in the wild.