Do you think Alleria, Vereesa and elves like Valeera are traitors to Quel'Thalas?

[Varodoc]

the Alliance abandoned Quel'thalas and left them at the mercy of the Amani, Scourge, and the Wretched for 6 years; if anything the Alliance are the traitors

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nvm this is a necropost

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eh, I'm still adamant that the Fourth War started when Varian declared war in the Undercity and what happened after Garrosh was deposed was just a simple truce

Incorrect, the Fourth War officially started in the BfA pre-patch when Sylvanas marched on the Night elves.

The Ren'dorei joined the Alliance in patch 7.3.5, before the war began. So they couldn't have foreseen that the factions would go to war (due to Sylvanas attempting to commit world mundicide for the Janitor).

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

It's not a technicality. Teldrassil objectively is not something that can be classed, as a genocide. It's not a matter of feelings, opinions or other subjective nonsense. It'S not a denominator of how violent something was nor of the scale. Terms like these should not be thrown about arbitrarily, because it's one of the most monstrous things that someone can commit. I'm not going to pretend to know why Blizzard elected to use the term, because the possibilities range from them being tone deaf to them using connotations of real tragedies to make the events, in order to market their videogame.



There is no point bringing up Teldrasil in 90% of the threads it appears in outside of hollow whataboutism attempting to derail the debate. It's a huge blow to the Darnassians, which they might never recover from spare some magical mumbo jumbo, but to put it bluntly bombarding a settlement into submission or ruin is a tactic as old as human ability to throw big rocks long distances, in fact that's how actual sieges work.

Okay, keep missing the point then.

[sighy]

Okay, keep missing the point then.

My point is that the people, who call Teldrassil a Genocide don't understand the meaning of the word. It doesn't mean what you think it does, if you think that upon reaching a certain threshold mass death it automatically levels up to genocide. Not how it bloody works. Bringing up Teldrassil, in discussion about Purge of Dalaran being a genocide is like saying "This orange is really sour, but that red train is more red."

[Mehrunes]

Which is why the conversation about what is or not genocide is pointless. The Problem is that everytime people call Tedrassil a genocide as shorthand to get across its impact -innacurate but understandable- we get the derail of "Well it's not technically a genocide" -even when the game itself refers as such, because the game IS working with the more simplistic "a WHOLE lot of people were killed" definition- which is just a derailing of the actual devastation of Teldrassil.

That's the problem, fixating on the technicality of what is a genocide when it's more semantics than anything.

The game does not get to redefine established legal concept. A writer as inept as Golden (who's so lazy her research on the Forsaken when she was writing a book about them for the first time didn't even go as far as reading up on their first quest) using a word wrong is neither here nor there. The definition of genocide isn't "semantics", it's the very thing that makes something a genocide or not. Unless you can show me any war criminal that has been found guilty of genocide just because "a WHOLE lot of people were killed" that "definition" is completely useless.

Also, for all your "disingenuous this, dishonest that" spiel, somehow you missed the part where this insistence in calling Teldrassil a genocide is just a fallacious appeal to emotion. Because it'd be one thing if the people you're defending here left things at simply invoking your meaningless "a WHOLE lot of people were killed" "definition" like you're pretending to be the case in the following paragraph. But it's not what's happening in discussions pertaining to Teldrassil, is it now? No, instead people insist that it is genocide even according to the proper definition of genocide after it's mentioned, even when the publicly available article on what makes something a genocide written by United Nations, i.e. the very organization that established genocide as its own separate war crime, clearly outlines why it is not the case.

And the thing that continues to boggle my mind is that there's not only a proper term to describe a whole lot of people dying, i.e. mass murder, but the fact that mass murder is already pretty fucking bad. So the aforementioned appeal to emotion doesn't actually do anything to achieve its intended purpose.

Given that the major enforcers of the Purge were the same race than blood elves, only with political differences, would make clear that it wasn't genocide, but expulsion of a political party. Yet again, it's the constant fixation on what is and what is not a genocide is disingenuous, because the constant "well Teldrassil isn't technically genocide" comes across as nothing but derailment of the actual point being made.

Race (though it should be noted race is used differently in fantasy settings) is just one of the protected groups when it comes to genocide. Ethnicity is another and at this point it could be argued the modern High Elves and Blood Elves are separate Thalassian ethnic groups. Mind you, the Purge of Dalaran isn't a genocide either, but Vereesa's goons sharing a race with its victims isn't the reason as to why.

The reason it's not a genocide is because of the goal behind it, which was expulsion of Blood Elves (at least on paper, because in actuality Jaina simply imprisoned them, which doesn't count as an expulsion). Which makes it a rather obvious case of either ethnic or "just" political cleansing. It's kinda in the name, because a purge is a synonym for cleansing. And it's just an opposite case of the Teldrassil debacle. Just like mass murder is already pretty fucking bad, so is cleansing. There's no reason to try to make either of these a genocide in order to make them bad, because that's something they already are regardless.

Your post is just evident of that, all you do is keep harping on the definition and technicality, on semantics, instead of any quantitative approach of harm. And it's just very tiring that everytime people use the word "genocide" to say "a lot of people of a race died" rather than focus on the technicality of definition, people like you go all "uhm actually" when it matters literally nothing to the conversation.

I dunno. I think if people used words properly that would alleviate their tiredness caused by being pointed out that they aren't using them properly.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

The game does not get to redefine established legal concept.

Sure, let's pretend that "genocide" doesn't also exist as a colloquialism at this point beyond its legal definition, which is how it's used within the warcraft universe, which obviously doesn't have our legal systems.

How can I NOT call this derailment disingenuous? The whole "It's not technically genocide" is so pointless, because if I really wanted to make an appeal to emotion I would just say "The mass murder of Teldrassil". People just use the word genocide because the game itself uses it. Because again, to pretend genocide doesn't also exist as a colloquialism for killing entire populations IS 100% being disingenuous.

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My point is that the people, who call Teldrassil a Genocide don't understand the meaning of the word. It doesn't mean what you think it does, if you think that upon reaching a certain threshold mass death it automatically levels up to genocide. Not how it bloody works. Bringing up Teldrassil, in discussion about Purge of Dalaran being a genocide is like saying "This orange is really sour, but that red train is more red."

Okay, keep missing the point.

Dude, people refer to genocide as a colloquialism for killings of big populations; the game ITSELF does it. Being pedantic about the genocide as a legal definition is entirely pointless, because...

THE POINT ISN'T WHICH OF THEM IS A GENOCIDE OR NOT FFS. That's just literally semantics. It doesn't matter.

[Ardenaso]

Incorrect, the Fourth War officially started in the BfA pre-patch when Sylvanas marched on the Night elves.

The Ren'dorei joined the Alliance in patch 7.3.5, before the war began. So they couldn't have foreseen that the factions would go to war (due to Sylvanas attempting to commit world mundicide for the Janitor).

I'm pretty sure Varian declaring war and the events in WotLK to MoP aren't in the Third War; unless they're the "3.5th War"

[sighy]

Sure, let's pretend that "genocide" doesn't also exist as a colloquialism at this point beyond its legal definition, which is how it's used within the warcraft universe, which obviously doesn't have our legal systems.

How can I NOT call this derailment disingenuous? The whole "It's not technically genocide" is so pointless, because if I really wanted to make an appeal to emotion I would just say "The mass murder of Teldrassil". People just use the word genocide because the game itself uses it. Because again, to pretend genocide doesn't also exist as a colloquialism for killing entire populations IS 100% being disingenuous.

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Okay, keep missing the point.

Dude, people refer to genocide as a colloquialism for killings of big populations; the game ITSELF does it. Being pedantic about the genocide as a legal definition is entirely pointless, because...

THE POINT ISN'T WHICH OF THEM IS A GENOCIDE OR NOT FFS. That's just literally semantics. It doesn't matter.

You're literally complaining about someone derailing your derailment. There are people, who legitimately attempt to defend the statement, on this forum, which is flatly wrong, even if you make it an euphemism used to emotionally manipulate people into thinking of something worse than what actually happened. And guess what not everyone around the world is privy to some random slang term, which happens to actually be one of the most heinous possible war crimes, as well, in the context of a fictional character or organisation being demonised.


You accused people of being disingenuous for calling the ethnic cleansing in Dalaran a form of genocide, on the grounds of Teldrassil being destruction of a greater scale. Clearly showcasing a misunderstanding of the terminology and it's range of application.

Real question tho, do the people that call the Purge of Dalaran a genocide actually believe it's the same magnitude of atrocity than the Burning of Teldrassil, or are they being disingenuous?

You were contested on those grounds and then went on a tangent about semantics.

[Varodoc]

I'm pretty sure Varian declaring war and the events in WotLK to MoP aren't in the Third War; unless they're the "3.5th War"

Just because a conflict wasn't named doesn't mean it never happened. That conflict is named as the "Alliance-Horde War" by Wowpedia, it shall suffice.

That conflict formally ended at the Siege of Orgrimmar, when High King Varian of the Alliance proposed a peace treaty, instead of dismantling the Horde.

Even Heirloom items in their description mention a "Fourth War" the factions are preparing for.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

You're literally complaining about someone derailing your derailment. There are people, who legitimately attempt to defend the statement, on this forum, which is flatly wrong, even if you make it an euphemism used to emotionally manipulate people into thinking of something worse than what actually happened. And guess what not everyone around the world is privy to some random slang term, which happens to actually be one of the most heinous possible war crimes, as well, in the context of a fictional character or organisation being demonised.

Come on, "random slang term" to refer to the common colloquialism of genocide beyond it's technical legal definition? But sure, let's derail the point. Teldrassil was just worst than Dalaran no matter how you want to define them. You are the one that keeps bringing up the legal definition of genocide, because surprise surprise, you are the one that keeps trying to make Dalaran "something worse than what actually happened."

Because again, answer honestly, beyond semantics and pedantics. What WAS worse, Teldrassil or Dalaran?

[sighy]

Come on, "random slang term" to refer to the common colloquialism of genocide beyond it's technical legal definition? But sure, let's derail the point. Teldrassil was just worst than Dalaran no matter how you want to define them. You are the one that keeps bringing up the legal definition of genocide, because surprise surprise, you are the one that keeps trying to make Dalaran "something worse than what actually happened."

Because again, answer honestly, beyond semantics and pedantics. What WAS worse, Teldrassil or Dalaran?

Teldrassil was worse that's never been disputed or even argued. Not qualifying as genocide doesn't make it inherently better or worse, only different, as it in the end is a monumental blow to the Darnassians. They've lost the Aspect's Blessings(again), their capital and suffered a catastrophic death toll. Something that doesn't require any farther embelishment to be considered an era defining tragedy by anyone who even respects them. It easily blows out of the water basically all conflicts they participated in since War of the Shifting Sands, if not WotA.


With that out of the way do you really believe that Teldrassil being worse, in any way detracts, from the ethnic cleansing of Dalaran being a dark stain upon Silver Covenant - Quel'thalas relations?

[huth]

"Genocide is the intentional action to destroy a people—usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group—in whole or in part." The purging of Blood Elves from Dalaran absolutely was a genocide, even if they share the same blood as the traitorous elves that eradicated them.

If Sylvanas' intent was to specifically annhilate Night Elves, and/or their Worgen cohabitants, then it counts as well. As I understand it though, she was just aiming to maximise casualties on all sides.

No, it was not. First, it wasn't directed against an ethnic, national, racial or religious group; it was directed against a political one. Second, the aim was expelling them from Dalaran, not killing them.

As for Teldrassil, the goal was to wipe out its inhabitants. That qualifies for trying to exterminate an ethnic and racial group. Two, actually.

[Dancaris]

They are traitors to modern Quel`Thalas. That is Horde lands for like 8 expansions now. You can calm down your pants, its not going anywhere.
They are not traitors to some their vision of Quel`Thalas up in their heads. And their dream land is pobably filled with blue flags and more humans than elves. Bacause its all that Alliance do - polute other land with human presence.

[OwenBurton]

As much as I hate Vereesa, Liadrin never said that...she might think it, I know I do, but Liadrin has never interacted with Vereesa.

Well, Liadrin knows OF Vereesa, and also must have at least vaguely reconnected with Alleria, as the two greet each other at Silvermoon.

Your leaders need to get their heads in the game.

Vereesa is so obsessed with her desire for revenge against the Horde that we cannot trust our flank to her.

Tyrande is a sentinel. She knows little of war on this type of battlefield. While her scouting is useful she should recuse the Kal'dorei from the main assault.

My blood knights are the only ones prepared to carry the weight of this conflict.

(Before the Siege of Suramar)

The Regent Lord intends to show First Arcanist Thalyssra our Sunwell. I do not know if he will allow Alleria Windrunner to attend the meeting, but we are invited to join them.

(Escorting the nightborne to Silvermoon and meeting Alleria again with the Horde champion)

I have no idea what they honestly think of each other though.

[Shefu]

They both chose to lay with the enemy instead of picking their own people. Traitorous wenches.

[Mehrunes]

Sure, let's pretend that "genocide" doesn't also exist as a colloquialism at this point beyond its legal definition, which is how it's used within the warcraft universe, which obviously doesn't have our legal systems.

How can I NOT call this derailment disingenuous? The whole "It's not technically genocide" is so pointless, because if I really wanted to make an appeal to emotion I would just say "The mass murder of Teldrassil". People just use the word genocide because the game itself uses it. Because again, to pretend genocide doesn't also exist as a colloquialism for killing entire populations IS 100% being disingenuous.

There's nothing to pretend. Has any war criminal been convicted for genocide due to this colloquialism of yours, ever? No? Then it's pretty damn irrelevant. You can insist on how noble this willful ignorance really is, but it's an argument a propos of nothing other than willful ignorance itself. Some brilliant people also talk about abortion being murder. Lo and behold, those people are wrong.

And it's rather... creative of you to accuse me being disingenuous on one hand when on the other, through some amazing leap of logic, you got the idea that using the proper term for what happened at Teldrassil would be the appeal to emotion here, rather than misusing another.

No, it was not. First, it wasn't directed against an ethnic, national, racial or religious group; it was directed against a political one. Second, the aim was expelling them from Dalaran, not killing them.

As for Teldrassil, the goal was to wipe out its inhabitants. That qualifies for trying to exterminate an ethnic and racial group. Two, actually.

Except it's not enough for the goal to be the wiping out of a population. It must happen precisely because people of that population belonged to a specific ethnic, national, racial or religious group. If Sylvanas torched Teldrassil because it had an abundance of plumbers and she waged a crusade against plumbers and arrived at the realization that destroying Teldrassil would be the fastest way to achieve her anti-plumber agenda, it wouldn't be genocide even if she killed trillions in the process. Because professions aren't a protected class. And neither is a political affiliation. And Sylvanas' actual motive was based on inflicting a wound that would never heal on a political union, all the while she didn't bat an eyebrow at non-Alliance Worgen or Night Elves.

[Evilfish]

Vareesa yes, she's a traitor. Not only did she abandon the belfs when they were pretty much fucked, over, well actually over nothing really, but also went out of her way to kill her former kin. At least Alleria tried to save the corrupted butt-elves when they ate too much void and the spy girl, well, she got recruited young so she didn't have much to betray really. It probably has to do with the fact that Alleria and Valeera are both characters while Vareesa and her whole silver covenant are an ati-belf story device.

[omeomorfismo]

Ah so SI7 knows atleast, I wonder where the info comes from given then sylvanas killed them all Mabye spying on the blood elfs or forsaken.

not every human joined sylvanas-garithos alliance, there is at least one that simply went to theramore

[scubi666stacy]

Of course they are. Instead of honoring all the victims and fallen protectors of their homeland and helping the survivors, they rather bend over to their human overlords to practice their mana veganism while so many die or suffer horrible mutilations.

Edit: Its even more disgusting if you look at it from the meta-perspective. You have these pretty women who leave their own kind for some human bores. Its nothing more than a fap fantasy of mediocre men were a supermodel suddenly falls for them and wants to have their babies. Pathetic.

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No, it was not. First, it wasn't directed against an ethnic, national, racial or religious group; it was directed against a political one. Second, the aim was expelling them from Dalaran, not killing them.

As for Teldrassil, the goal was to wipe out its inhabitants. That qualifies for trying to exterminate an ethnic and racial group. Two, actually.

I have seen Jaina going around like a maniac, killing NPCs, when I played the Alliance part of the story. At least it looked like killing to me.

Anyway, both things have been terrible, Teldrassil of course on a greater scale. But while some Blood Elves have been after Malfurion to punish him for his wrongdoing against his people, it was a Banshee Queen, who ordered the Burning. Lor'Themar was not even present at that scene to do anything, neither could any other Blood Elf change this course of the story. But this topic derails from the main question, and yes, these NPCs are traitors to Quel'Thalas which belongs to the Horde for some time now - longer that it has been not part of it in the story of WoW.

[Soon-TM]

eh, I'm still adamant that the Fourth War started when Varian declared war in the Undercity and what happened after Garrosh was deposed was just a simple truce

That's in fact how Blizzard themselves consider it. Varian declared war during the coup at the Undercity, and a formal peace treaty has never been signed since then. The negotiations that ensued after SoO were just an armistice, as were those undertaken by the end of BfA - from a formal PoV, Horde and Alliance are still at war with each other.

[Varodoc]

That's in fact how Blizzard themselves consider it. Varian declared war during the coup at the Undercity, and a formal peace treaty has never been signed since then. The negotiations that ensued after SoO were just an armistice, as were those undertaken by the end of BfA - from a formal PoV, Horde and Alliance are still at war with each other.

You're wrong. It is directly stated in an heirloom item added in Legion patch 7.2.5 (so even after Stormheim) that the Alliance and Horde were PREPARING IN THE EVENT OF THE FOURTH WAR.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sco...gdoms_Campaign

Thus it is Canonically stated by Blizzard that the Fourth War was started some time after patch 7.2.5. What you said is incorrect.

Now, I wonder what might have happened between 7.2.5 and 8.0 that would cause a war