How should the Horde story have been handled and advanced ?

[Bali]

Yeah, these other groups should have had more of a presence. Ogres and High Elves really should have been playable. Would've made more sense of High Elves replaced the Kaldorei in the Alliance (Night Elves had no business joining the Alliance, but I digress) and the Ogres replacing the Forsaken's spot in the Horde. That said, it would be hard to get conflict between the two coalitions going if they didn't have territory located on each other's continents. I don't think it'd be too hard for Draenei to wind up joining the Alliance without the presence of the Night Elves.

Yesyesyesyesyes. Why would Tyrande and Malfurion bow to the king of Stormwind? They are strong on their own. High elves? YES! They have been part of the alliance since forever yet blizz just gaslights high elf fans and acts as if they were asking for something ridiclous. Ogres instead of forsaken? Absolutely. Makes much more sense. The blood elves should be independent and the draenei should join the Alliance because of ideological reasons and because they are almost exctinct and need the protection.

Another missed opportunity Blizzard never capitalized on: having Silver Hand paladins who were raised and broke free having to confront their still living comrades who were fighting for the Alliance. Or Forsaken confronting their living comrades and family in general.

An interesting idea as well. While forsaken pallys feel weird to me, ther is technically already one in the lore and there are priests as wells so it could potentially happen.

One thing that Warcraft never did well was the handling of the Forsaken, the Scarlet Crusade, and the Argent Dawn/Crusade.

The Scarlet Crusade and the Argent Dawn/Crusade are fundamentally the same organization. They are fighting against a tyrannical regime that kills people and raises them as undead and enslaves them. Sylvanas does everything the Lich King did: kill people and enslave them. Except for some reason Blizzard decided that Scarlet Crusade are "evil" and the Argents aren't? And Thrall allows the Forsaken into the Horde - a faction predicated on slavery - when he had just spent his whole life as a slave and led his people across the ocean to escape it? What?

The Argent Dawn became the Argent Crusade at some point so they are the actually the same. I guess the only difference is that the Crusade is more racially inclusive because the Silver Hand (which later split into the Scarlet Crusade and the Argent Dawn) was founded by the memebers of the old Alliance. The reason why the Scarlet Crusade became so fanatical was because Balnazzar posessed the body of their leader, Saidan Dathrohan. I actually like that the game shows that the light can indeed be used for evil, even tho i would've kinda preferred if they became crazy and paranoid on their own and if there were more deserters who didn't agree with the leadership.

I always found it weird that we got this official art of Kael'thas confronting Kil'jaeden, but it never happened anywhere in the story.

Kael's story is a mess. He deserved better.

[Gaidax]

Well, in my opinion they bungled up Garrosh and that's where it all went wrong.

Should have been a strong and serious leader, maybe hotheaded and prone to reckless action, but with reason. Got turned into some supremacist lunatic for no bloody reason whatsoever.

After that it all went downhill and Horde is really a mess. Now sure, we're heavily teased about becoming one big happy family soon, but IMO Horde really got dragged through the dirt on the way there.

[Bali]

The Horde is simply in a narrative limbo. They cannot commit to a single facet for long otherwise it reaches a natural conclusion real fast.
If the Horde are noble savages then the logical endgame is them accepting blame for their actions and making peace with the Alliance, effectively ending any story they have.

The Alliance doesnt really have this problem because it doesnt have a moral dilemma that it needs to resolve. All it's threats are external, and because the game has focused on the Alliance being stable for so long it will be easier to accept if we eventually get some internal discord.

People like Daelin for example can't be reasoned with tho. Even if the Horde wanted peace, most of the Alliance probably wouldn't agree to it. Especially with manipulation from the dragons.
As for the Alliance's problems, they should have had internal conflicts and evil characters at least a few times rather than making the horde the shitfaces all the time.

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Thing is. In the span of WoW nobody really "hated" the Horde. They were welcomed by all of Azeroth's neutral factions, races and so on, while Alliance only responded to invasions of their land. Basically that idea that Horde is "hated" or "collection of shunned peoples" is wrong from the very start since 1) They are NOT shunned by vast majority of Azerothian people. 2) Alliance dosent "hate" them, they just hate it when Horde starts burning, invading, genociding them etc.

After generations of battling trolls the alliance surely thinks of them highly. And Varian? He is surely thankful to the orcs for destroying his city and killing his father. Daelin? He wasn't the aggressor at all. Jaina must have also been very glad to have her city and her best friends destroyed. She was just spreading love in Dalaran along with Vereesa. Yeah nobody hates the horde.

[VladlTutushkin]

People like Daelin for example can't be reasoned with tho. Even if the Horde wanted peace, most of the Alliance probably wouldn't agree to it. Especially with manipulation from the dragons.
As for the Alliance's problems, they should have had internal conflicts and evil characters at least a few times rather than making the horde the shitfaces all the time.

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After generations of battling trolls the alliance surely thinks of them highly. And Varian? He is surely thankful to the orcs for destroying his city and killing his father. Daelin? He wasn't the aggressor at all. Jaina must have also been very glad to have her city and her best friends destroyed. She was just spreading love in Dalaran along with Vereesa. Yeah nobody hates the horde.

You mean Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas? Because those battled trolls a LOT and they are in the Horde now. Varian mellowed down and even when he supposedly "hated" the Horde he never went as far as Garrosh did towards the Alliance. Jaina forgave the Horde for it when her city was destroyed and only started hating them again after they betrayed her second time. Oh and then she forgave them again if you didnt got the memo.

Its all about that sweet, sweet forgiveness and renewal maaaan. Tyrande pretty much let go of genocide to "not be consumed by hate".

Enjoy. Enjoy this peaceful, merciful story of healing.

And its not even talking about how Horde never was "shunned" by neutral factions or races who had no reason NOT to shun them.

[Al Gorefiend]

I think the Horde would have been a seriously great faction and unique for a storytelling device if they just never killed off Garrosh. I didn't like Garrosh as a character at all, and that could have been an interesting way to explain the Horde as being the aggressors whereas you, the character, don't necessarily agree with the warchief about everything to the extent alliance players do. He can be a "villain" to both factions in the sense he's a warmonger constantly causing strain to the horde characters who are more diplomatic.

Basically he's our dick boss. I miss having characters we love to hate, they only ever live for one or two expansions before the rawr evil reveal.

[Dellis0991]

They shouldn't made Garrosh into a baddie.

[Bali]

You mean Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas? Because those battled trolls a LOT and they are in the Horde now. Varian mellowed down and even when he supposedly "hated" the Horde he never went as far as Garrosh did towards the Alliance. Jaina forgave the Horde for it when her city was destroyed and only started hating them again after they betrayed her second time. Oh and then she forgave them again if you didnt got the memo.

Its all about that sweet, sweet forgiveness and renewal maaaan. Tyrande pretty much let go of genocide to "not be consumed by hate".

Enjoy. Enjoy this peaceful, merciful story of healing.

And its not even talking about how Horde never was "shunned" by neutral factions or races who had no reason NOT to shun them.

Actually the entirety of humankind has been battling trolls for a long time now. They even attacked Stormwind at some point when Medivh had to step in, not to mention Stromgarde who's king was literally called Trollbane. At the time of WC III im sure the humans (except jaina ofc) hated the orcs and the trolls even if that changed later.But yeah you're right about the inconsistent writing tho.

[Feanoro]

Daelin? He wasn't the aggressor at all.

You're right, he wasn't. He was pursuing dangerous creatures who had violently escaped captivity. Those same creatures had slaughtered uncounted numbers, burned Stormwind to the ground, and razed their way up a continent. Allowing them to go their merry way and hope they weren't going to build up their strength and return to finish the job would have been nothing less than insanity. Since Metzen was trying to whitewash his beloved orcs though, that reasonable motivation was twisted and demeaned into "durr hurr he raaaaaaaaaaacist".

[Bali]

You're right, he wasn't. He was pursuing dangerous creatures who had violently escaped captivity. Those same creatures had slaughtered uncounted numbers, burned Stormwind to the ground, and razed their way up a continent. Allowing them to go their merry way and hope they weren't going to build up their strength and return to finish the job would have been nothing less than insanity. Since Metzen was trying to whitewash his beloved orcs though, that reasonable motivation was twisted and demeaned into "durr hurr he raaaaaaaaaaacist".

He sacrificed himself and his army for nothing. The horde was clearly done fighting and if he wasn't so arrogant and would have just listened to his daughter he could have avoided more unnecessary death.
The orcs weren't whitewashed they simply broke free from the demons and learned to reflect on themselves.

[scubi666stacy]

The Horde is not a morally heroic faction. The selling point of the Horde has always been that it's a coalition of genocidal beastmen. [SNIP]

NO, just no. The Horde as it was founded by Thrall was the exact opposite of that. He wanted his Orcs to redeem themselves from past sins. The Darkspear have been the only tribe of the trolls who have not used some horrible practices in their culture. The Tauren are a relatively peaceful tribe - they needed the help of Orcs to survive against the more aggressive and bestial Centaurs. The only really shady and twisted race of the Horde have been the Forsaken, but they also had the benefit of a doubt back then, since they have got their free will back and just wanted to be left alone in their devastated homeland.

The warmongering came later, when the writers got their brains fucked by testosterone.

I would have written the Alliance as the main aggressor of the story after the Wraithgate, with Varian being the hotheaded and aggressive testosterone-driven idiot and Garrosh being the one who jumped at any sign of provocation like a rabid dog with daddy issues which he was in his heart. So the Horde would have been under constant pressure in Cataclysm - mostly in the Eastern Kingdoms, thus leading Garrosh to aggressively getting more lands in Kalimdor to compensate (and thus straining the relations to the Night Elves, but the destruction of Theramore would be prevented, I really hate what this event did to Jaina). Then, in MoP the war would have escalated fueled by the Sha, leading to the Darkspear Rebellion of the Horde, and something similar on theside of Alliance, where Jaina and Anduin would have changed the ways of Varian Wrynn. And after Legion was defeated, I would made the Alliance the aggresor again, this time with Greymane being the main culprit who would have manipulated Anduin to attack the Horde because Sylvanas was doing shady stuff. There would not have been the destruction of UC or the Burning of Teldrassil. And Sylvanas and Anduin would have led the Horde and Alliance together into the Shadowlands to fight the Jailer because Sylvanas found out about his machinations. All story in BfA would be used to unite the Horde and the Alliance and to get more Allied Races so the World Order could be saved.

And this is only the variant which uses most of the things which have happened in the game anyway. If I would have more freedom, I would have skipped all of the Faction War bullshit, and would have left the factions behind by the time when Legion lands on the Broken Shore. When the Class Orders have to step in to save the day, the Factions lose their meaning. I would have continued with 1 faction afterwards, and various enemies from different peoples who kept their grudges. Some radical extremists on both sides would probably still keep fighting (to keep BGs for the PvP crowd), but that would be regional skirmishes ignored by the rest.

[Feanoro]

The horde was clearly done fighting

It was clear only to the player. There was no reason in game for any character to believe the Horde had turned over a new leaf.

[rogueMatthias]

The Orcs spent most of the first games as warmongering genocidal invaders, so it was always an uphill battle when the writers decided to retcon them as misunderstood peaceful shamans.
It was all placed on Thralls shoulders too, and they went WAY too into the Green Jesus thing, so it was never convincing that they'd all really changed at all and seemed more like Thrall was just some anomaly.
This was only amplified when again and again they went back to their old ways, leading to MOP and WOD.

If anything the Alliance are WAY too understanding and forgiving. Most Alliance have had at least some relatives butchered by the Orcs and Trolls, a lot of which are still alive and well in the new Horde, but they go back to trying to be friends with them again and again like some victim of domestic abuse.

Look at Saurfang as an example - Sure he regretted it but he was there and following orders and a pivotal point in the whole plan to invade Ashenvale and genocide the elves. So because he felt bad for his part IN A GENOCIDE we all forgave him and helped him escape and die a heroic warriors death and attended his funeral? Like wtaf.

After generations of battling trolls the alliance surely thinks of them highly. And Varian? He is surely thankful to the orcs for destroying his city and killing his father. Daelin? He wasn't the aggressor at all. Jaina must have also been very glad to have her city and her best friends destroyed. She was just spreading love in Dalaran along with Vereesa. Yeah nobody hates the horde.

This proves the opposite to what you think it does. It's showing that no matter how bad the Hordes actions were, the Alliance just eventually forgave and rolled with it anyway.

I would actually LOVE if Sky Admiral Rogers led a new faction of breakaway Alliance or insurrectionists that were just like "No fuck these guys. After the two wars, Southshore, MOP, WOD, Theramore, Teldrassil, Gilneas.... we're just going to forgive them until they decide to attack again? Are you fucking serious?"

[Soon-TM]

At the time of WC III im sure the humans (except jaina ofc) hated the orcs and the trolls even if that changed later.

Remember that Tirion was excommunicated from the Church of the Holy Light for the sole reason of having helped an orc, even if the orc in question was a quite honourable one. Speaking of the Church, their policy towards the Forsaken (during early WoW, at any rate) was to kill them on sight and burn them. As a matter of fact, the Scarlet Crusade had the full support of the Church in this regard.

[Gigantique]

Yesyesyesyesyes. Why would Tyrande and Malfurion bow to the king of Stormwind? They are strong on their own. High elves? YES! They have been part of the alliance since forever yet blizz just gaslights high elf fans and acts as if they were asking for something ridiclous. Ogres instead of forsaken? Absolutely. Makes much more sense. The blood elves should be independent and the draenei should join the Alliance because of ideological reasons and because they are almost exctinct and need the protection.





An interesting idea as well. While forsaken pallys feel weird to me, ther is technically already one in the lore and there are priests as wells so it could potentially happen.




The Argent Dawn became the Argent Crusade at some point so they are the actually the same. I guess the only difference is that the Crusade is more racially inclusive because the Silver Hand (which later split into the Scarlet Crusade and the Argent Dawn) was founded by the memebers of the old Alliance. The reason why the Scarlet Crusade became so fanatical was because Balnazzar posessed the body of their leader, Saidan Dathrohan. I actually like that the game shows that the light can indeed be used for evil, even tho i would've kinda preferred if they became crazy and paranoid on their own and if there were more deserters who didn't agree with the leadership.



Kael's story is a mess. He deserved better.

The Argent Crusade is also just the new name given to the remmants of the Silver Hand and Argent Dawn joining forces and becoming one faction at the end of the DK starting quests.

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People like Daelin for example can't be reasoned with tho. Even if the Horde wanted peace, most of the Alliance probably wouldn't agree to it. Especially with manipulation from the dragons.
As for the Alliance's problems, they should have had internal conflicts and evil characters at least a few times rather than making the horde the shitfaces all the time.

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After generations of battling trolls the alliance surely thinks of them highly. And Varian? He is surely thankful to the orcs for destroying his city and killing his father. Daelin? He wasn't the aggressor at all. Jaina must have also been very glad to have her city and her best friends destroyed. She was just spreading love in Dalaran along with Vereesa. Yeah nobody hates the horde.

Two points here. For gameplay reasons every neutral faction is allright with the Horde helping out, which means the Horde isn't a bunch of outcasts banded together, since most neutrals are fine with them.

Also most of your points happen after Vanilla, when the line about being outcasts was from Vanilla. Daelin not being an aggressor I wholeheartedly disagree with, since Thrall's Horde was not the Horde of old, which Thrall, Rexxar AND Jaina tried to get through Daelin's thick skull.

[Bali]

It was clear only to the player. There was no reason in game for any character to believe the Horde had turned over a new leaf.

Yeah sure I mean a half ogre and a troll peacefully talking to Jaina while being surrounded by the alliance that could have easily swarmed them if they wanted trouble surely must have been a sign of war.

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The Argent Crusade is also just the new name given to the remmants of the Silver Hand and Argent Dawn joining forces and becoming one faction at the end of the DK starting quests.

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Two points here. For gameplay reasons every neutral faction is allright with the Horde helping out, which means the Horde isn't a bunch of outcasts banded together, since most neutrals are fine with them.

Also most of your points happen after Vanilla, when the line about being outcasts was from Vanilla. Daelin not being an aggressor I wholeheartedly disagree with, since Thrall's Horde was not the Horde of old, which Thrall, Rexxar AND Jaina tried to get through Daelin's thick skull.

I know he was the aggressor, I was just being sarcastic. Anyways only the stuff related to Jaina happened after Vanilla. Thee alliance has been battling trolls even before the first war and I doubt at that time they could have been convinced that the Darkspear were different. Stormwind was destroyed during the first war.

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I would actually LOVE if Sky Admiral Rogers led a new faction of breakaway Alliance or insurrectionists that were just like "No fuck these guys. After the two wars, Southshore, MOP, WOD, Theramore, Teldrassil, Gilneas.... we're just going to forgive them until they decide to attack again? Are you fucking serious?"

That would actually be an interesting addition to the lore.

[Dastreus]

Answer to thread's question:

[Feanoro]

Yeah sure I mean a half ogre and a troll peacefully talking to Jaina while being surrounded by the alliance that could have easily swarmed them if they wanted trouble surely must have been a sign of war.

A "half ogre and a troll peacefully talking to Jaina" could easily have been emissaries sent to demand her surrender or any number of things.

Want to know why Alliance story sucks? Because Alliance players like you (or so I presume from your avatar and posts) have accepted that only the Horde has legitimate grievances. You're going out of your way to see it from the Horde's point of view and damning Daelin without remotely considering his viewpoint.

Metzen completely whitewashed the Horde just like that, pretending WC1 and 2 didn't happen, ignoring his own story that every living member of the Alliance had been impacted by the Horde's murderous rampage, losing friends, family, homes, and more. They had every right to be suspicious of the Horde and the duty to themselves in self-defense to ensure the Horde wasn't rebuilding to resume the slaughter. But no, let's just handwave that away because raaaaaaaacism. That was one of the single worst parts of WC3, as it's flat out insulting to the player's intelligence.

[Bali]

A "half ogre and a troll peacefully talking to Jaina" could easily have been emissaries sent to demand her surrender or any number of things.

Want to know why Alliance story sucks? Because Alliance players like you (or so I presume from your avatar and posts) have accepted that only the Horde has legitimate grievances. You're going out of your way to see it from the Horde's point of view and damning Daelin without remotely considering his viewpoint.

Lol no in fact my main was horde and I was giving the most attention to my horde alts when I used to play I just.. like the elves lmao.
There are no alliance players that only see the horde's pov, in fact 99% of the alliance players I see are the opposite and just say that "the horde is 100000% worse" whenever someone brings up something bad that the blue team has done. Heck most of them even try to justify the genocide at dalaran and things like that. Besides, how much do you think your regular player has an impact on the lore? I's not like the devs/lorewriters are listening to the players. Also how do you know I don't think the alliance has grievances? They have more but that doesn't mean I have to agree with Daelin's actions.

Metzen completely whitewashed the Horde just like that, pretending WC1 and 2 didn't happen, ignoring his own story that every living member of the Alliance had been impacted by the Horde's murderous rampage, losing friends, family, homes, and more. They had every right to be suspicious of the Horde and the duty to themselves in self-defense to ensure the Horde wasn't rebuilding to resume the slaughter. But no, let's just handwave that away because raaaaaaaacism. That was one of the single worst parts of WC3, as it's flat out insulting to the player's intelligence.

Who is pretending that WC1 and 2 didn't happen? Theramore was the only human settlement being peaceful towards the Horde and only after Hyjal.

[sighy]

The Argent Crusade is also just the new name given to the remmants of the Silver Hand and Argent Dawn joining forces and becoming one faction at the end of the DK starting quests.

Bulk of the OG Silver Hand ended up rebranding to Scarlet Crusade or dead. The Argent Dawn/Crusade were a minor splinter group, which disagreed with the overzealous extremism.

[Villager720]

I don’t think the Horde story was too bad until BfA.
I still think a preemptive Alliance assault on Lordaeron post-failed human/forsaken deal would have really let Sylvanas and the Horde have a much better story.
Sylvanas was always a bit paranoid AND arrogant, so her suffering a successful sneak attack against her would have provided a lot of justification for her erratic behavior in the rest of BfA. And it would have explained why most of the Horde goes along with her - they think it’s a war for survival they didn’t start. Saurfang could still have been mopey about the deterioration of “honorable” warfare but him turning on her would have been much more “morally gray”. All of that would have made the Horde story infinitely better than just a repeat of MoP.