Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
7
... LastLast
  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Never said that Republicans actually care much more then Democrats.

    But they do have rhetoric that seems to better match worker sensibilities.
    ...in large part because Democrats moved to targeting primarily urban and suburban voters.
    Workers live in urban and suburban areas. The majority of working poor live in those areas.

  2. #82
    I liked the section of the article that said something about illegal in regard to requiring vaccines or testing for covid. The authors feel only being libertarian = democracy.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    That's what "Learn to code" is. It's subsidized training for new jobs since the old local industry is dying.
    Actual programs seemed to have really low success rate when i last checked a few years ago.

    No, the market does that. Just like it did to wheelmakers and milk delivery people.
    "We'll add extra taxes and refuse to give permits for new plants, and then market 'will decide' on it's own that they are no longer needed" is not how people imagine "market doing things" in economics; you're putting quite a big hand on the scales.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Never said that Republicans actually care much more then Democrats.

    But they do have rhetoric that seems to better match worker sensibilities.
    ...in large part because Democrats moved to targeting primarily urban and suburban voters.
    They're rhetoric is "pull yourself up by your bootstraps". And that does match a lot of workers sensibilities....until those workers are the ones that need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Then those government bailouts that they opposed a few years before suddenly seem like a great idea.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    "We'll add extra taxes and refuse to give permits for new plants, and then market 'will decide' on it's own that they are no longer needed" is not how people imagine "market doing things" in economics; you're putting quite a big hand on the scales.
    The GOP gave lots of money to the coal industry. They gave even more money to oil and gas and then sat there wondering why natural gas kicked coal to the curb.

    Hand on the scales indeed.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Actual programs seemed to have really low success rate when i last checked a few years ago.
    Ok, so look into ways to improve it, not abandoning any hope of stimulating new industries in areas where local industries are dead/dying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    "We'll add extra taxes and refuse to give permits for new plants, and then market 'will decide' on it's own that they are no longer needed" is not how people imagine "market doing things" in economics; you're putting quite a big hand on the scales.
    Is a grossly inaccurate reflection regarding the global demand for coal which, while temporarily up as power plants are being turned back on, continues its downward global trend.

    When your best arguments rely on making up fiction, they're not very good.

  7. #87
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Rigging your election
    Posts
    36,799
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Creating permanent underclass living on government handouts does seem to be how Democrats see solution to all problems, be that work-related or racial.
    Possibly imagining later holding those handouts over their heads with "Vote for us or Evil Republicans will take them away".

    That isn't how workers get good outcomes though.
    "Why do Democrats want people to get better careers, rather than propping up dying careers?"

    "Because those dying careers are a waste of time, and Democrats are attempting to help people through a crisis."

    "Why don't Democrats give people more money directly to help them live during that crisis then?"

    "They attempt to, but Republicans hamstring them at every corner and shoot down all attempts at social safety nets."

    "Creating permanent underclass living on government handouts does seem to be how Democrats see a solution to all problems."



    The hilarious part was when you argued against your own point. "Why aren't democrats giving more money directly to disenfranchised workers?" "They're trying, but Republicans" "LOL DEMOCRATS WANT TO CREATE A PERMANENT UNDERCLASS"

    And yet Democrats are the ones trying to give people training for new careers, while Republicans just vomit up pretty lies that don't help anyone.


    If you look at a history of attempted legislation throughout the last 20 years, Democrats have introduced many many many bills that are basically copies of successful european social safety nets. Safety nets that elevate the poor and give them the opportunity to work towards a better career, rather than being forced into minimum wage tripe. Republicans always shoot them down.

    This isn't some "narrative" created to force people to vote Democrat. This is reality.

    This isn't fox news. This is FUCKING CONGRESS.GOV.

    Do you just deliberately parrot really ignorant things, hoping other people on the forum will get fed up with your circular and nonsensical arguments? Because that's all you ever do. Just create circular arguments and parrot falsehoods pushed by the right.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    "We'll add extra taxes and refuse to give permits for new plants, and then market 'will decide' on it's own that they are no longer needed" is not how people imagine "market doing things" in economics; you're putting quite a big hand on the scales.
    If you think milk delivery trucks and wheel maker industries died because of taxes and withholding permits, I've got a bridge to sell you in Moscow.

    If you think coal is dying because of taxes and withholding permits, I've got a bridge over the Pacific Ocean to sell you.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2021-11-24 at 01:00 AM.
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
    2023: "What's with all these massively successful games with ugly (realistic) women? How could this have happened?!"

  8. #88
    I don't think even GQP voters believe that their politicians care about the working class. And it's certainly not why GQP voters vote for the GQP. It really just seems like some bazaar fantasy from people not in this country who write that ignorance.

  9. #89
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
    5+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    8,791
    While the nature of the topic invites a wide array of points to debate why this occurred, let's reel it in and be mindful of forbidden topics.
    Moderator of the General Off-Topic, Politics, Lore, and RP Forums
    "If you have any concerns, let me know via PM. I'll do my best to assist you."

  10. #90
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Rigging your election
    Posts
    36,799
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    I don't think even GQP voters believe that their politicians care about the working class. And it's certainly not why GQP voters vote for the GQP. It really just seems like some bazaar fantasy from people not in this country who write that ignorance.
    Let's be real here. We know there's millions of dollars from a certain country spent on spreading misinformation in America to sow chaos and dissidence. And both the propaganda farms over in *Looks at notes* "Not Russia, probably Ukraine" as well as the American stooges are more than happy to partake of that giant monetary pie.

    Facebook profits from this kind of misinformation being spread all over their platform, and Zuckerberg is a fucking sellout for allowing it. Same with any other social media platform that allows crazy conspiracies to fester.

    They're part of the problem of America being a "Backsliding Democracy".
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2021-11-24 at 01:35 AM.
    2014 Gamergate: "If you want games without hyper sexualized female characters and representation, then learn to code!"
    2023: "What's with all these massively successful games with ugly (realistic) women? How could this have happened?!"

  11. #91
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    78,895
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Creating permanent underclass living on government handouts does seem to be how Democrats see solution to all problems, be that work-related or racial.
    Why would it be an "underclass" at all?

    That's you projecting right-wing authoritarian bullshit and pretending that's what Democrats are talking about.

    Possibly imagining later holding those handouts over their heads with "Vote for us or Evil Republicans will take them away".
    Would the Republicans take them away?

    Then it's the Republicans making those threats. Not the Democrats. Pointing it out isn't dishonest or misleading or manipulative.


    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    "Learn to code" was, admittedly, not a very nice thing to say to people losing their jobs. But it's not really substanstively different than the Republican "Pull yourself up by your bootstraps" talking point...so the performative pearl-clutching about that remark really fell flat.
    It's incredibly substantively different.

    "Bootstraps" is old-timey for "shoelaces". The original phrase meant to lift yourself off the ground by pulling up on your own shoelaces; a literal impossibility. And the modern use just blames those struggling for that struggle, and gives them no assistance, expecting them to rely on "their own bootstraps".

    "Learn to code" was a lifeline. A path out of the pit they're in (and it wasn't really limited to coding, that was always just a suggested option). Actual help.

    So what the rejection here was, was the equivalent of seeing someone spiraling down a whirlpool, and tossing them a line to grap onto. And them refusing to grab it, yelling back that they like swimming just fine! Just make the whirlpool stop spinning!

    Which, y'know, isn't how anything works. Coal jobs aren't coming back.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-11-24 at 02:06 AM. Reason: Cut out the bit that touched on race to try and stay clear of mod warning.


  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's incredibly substantively different.

    "Bootstraps" is old-timey for "shoelaces". The original phrase meant to lift yourself off the ground by pulling up on your own shoelaces; a literal impossibility. And the modern use just blames those struggling for that struggle, and gives them no assistance, expecting them to rely on "their own bootstraps".

    "Learn to code" was a lifeline. A path out of the pit they're in (and it wasn't really limited to coding, that was always just a suggested option). Actual help.

    So what the rejection here was, was the equivalent of seeing someone spiraling down a whirlpool, and tossing them a line to grap onto. And them refusing to grab it, yelling back that they like swimming just fine! Just make the whirlpool stop spinning!

    Which, y'know, isn't how anything works. Coal jobs aren't coming back.
    I'm just saying "learn to code", even when looked at through the most cynical lens, isn't any worse than telling someone to pull themselves out by their bootstraps....and that's the kind of thing they cheer about...when it's said to other people. It's only bad when someone says it to them.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Actual programs seemed to have really low success rate when i last checked a few years ago.

    "We'll add extra taxes and refuse to give permits for new plants, and then market 'will decide' on it's own that they are no longer needed" is not how people imagine "market doing things" in economics; you're putting quite a big hand on the scales.
    speaking of "hand on scale" fossil fuels gets billions in subsidies far outpacing green energy subsides, which btw green energy job growth far exceeds fossil fuels

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Why would it be an "underclass" at all?

    That's you projecting right-wing authoritarian bullshit and pretending that's what Democrats are talking about.
    Because they are destroying jobs they had without creating any substitutions.

    See Detroit as example of same thing happening within cities. Decades after car industry jobs being disappearing things didn't get better.

    Detroit's enormous underclass: The problem that’s taboo
    Demographers now tend to fix Detroit's current population at 672,000. According to Detroit Future City, about 53 percent of those folks, or 356,000, live in "areas of concentrated poverty" — census tracts where at least 40 percent of the population is living below the poverty line.

    In fact, slightly more than 40 percent of all Detroiters are below the federal poverty line, which is defined as no more than $24,339 a year for a family of four. Try living on that sometime.

    Many, in fact, have much less. That might be a good rough estimate of the number of Detroiters not easily employable.

    Many of them aren't employed at all, of course. Using census data, Detroit Future City came up with another statistic highlighted by Metro Times' Violet Ikonomova a couple weeks ago: In Detroit, where 80 percent of the population is black, African-Americans hold only 33 percent of all jobs.

    Stunning? Amazing? Horrifying? Yes, all of that. What's more, this is a smaller percentage than it was in the depths of the Great Recession, when 36 percent of Detroit jobs were held by black people. (That doesn't mean nobody else in the city is employed. Detroit Future City also found that some of the lowest paid Detroiters, those earning barely $15,000 a year, had hour-long commutes.)


    And guess what? Detroit had Democrat mayors since 1962.

    How are Democrats solving those problems? Why didn't Detroiters all learned to code?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    speaking of "hand on scale" fossil fuels gets billions in subsidies far outpacing green energy subsides, which btw green energy job growth far exceeds fossil fuels
    They get subsidies because people have to use them to commute in American cities.

    A lot of those subsidies are consumption-side, trying it weaken price shocks for population.

    It is highly likely that fully replacing them with electric cars will increase costs without even higher subsidies.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    Let's be real here. We know there's millions of dollars from a certain country spent on spreading misinformation in America to sow chaos and dissidence. And both the propaganda farms over in *Looks at notes* "Not Russia, probably Ukraine" as well as the American stooges are more than happy to partake of that giant monetary pie.
    Why do you look across the pond for "millions spent" when you have native media networks making billions of dollars on spreading misinformation in America? Like, for you, Fox News? Or OAN? Or Project Veritas?

    Let's be real, Russians might have a few good shots here and there but most of damage is from your own cultural war.

    Facebook profits from this kind of misinformation being spread all over their platform, and Zuckerberg is a fucking sellout for allowing it. Same with any other social media platform that allows crazy conspiracies to fester.

    They're part of the problem of America being a "Backsliding Democracy".
    And part of that is also Democrats embracing supposedly Republican-inspired idea of "Us vs Them". Where if one side takes any position you must take the opposite, and your opinion should never match "the other"... lest it be revealed that you're the same.
    Last edited by Shalcker; 2021-11-24 at 01:07 PM.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    And guess what? Detroit had Democrat mayors since 1962.
    And how many GOP Governors and Presidents since then?

    Would you prefer the GOP solution of more of the same even though the same left the city decades ago.

  16. #96
    Herald of the Titans
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    2,821
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    And how many GOP Governors and Presidents since then?

    Would you prefer the GOP solution of more of the same even though the same left the city decades ago.
    Didn't the GOP governors remove a lot of the mayoral powers from the city of Detroit?
    - Lars

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    And how many GOP Governors and Presidents since then?
    You had Democratic governors and presidents too.

    Would you prefer the GOP solution of more of the same even though the same left the city decades ago.
    So you have two sides providing non-solutions and piling up one problem after another and then Democrats move on to next trendy thing.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    You had Democratic governors and presidents too.

    So you have two sides providing non-solutions and piling up one problem after another and then Democrats move on to next trendy thing.
    Yeah but redlining and re-incorporation did most of the damage already.

    This just gets back to the theory of:
    The Democrats might help you.
    The GOP won't help you.
    Seriously you just admitted that the GOP does nothing at all. At least the next trendy thing might work for some people.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Yeah but redlining and re-incorporation did most of the damage already.

    This just gets back to the theory of:
    The Democrats might help you.
    The GOP won't help you.
    Seriously you just admitted that the GOP does nothing at all. At least the next trendy thing might work for some people.
    As i said above, to me "Democrats help you" seems to create permanent underclasses.

    "Might work for some people" - and does not seem to work for majority of them.

    It isn't like GOP approaches haven't "worked for some people" either.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    As i said above, to me "Democrats help you" seems to create permanent underclasses.

    "Might work for some people" - and does not seem to work for majority of them.

    It isn't like GOP approaches haven't "worked for some people" either.
    The underclass was already there and has been there since the end of the civil war. Racist social conservatives have kept them in place.

    So you acknowledge that it at least worked for some people?

    They really haven't.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •