Blizzard don't ban boosting because THEY are the boosters...crazy

[Relapses]

To all of those who claim that boosting is a very tiny percentage, let me ask you one thing:

Do you think the boosting spam in trade chat means that there's more boosters, more demand for boosting, both, or neither?

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This video is probably one of the better ones. As I said, you just haven't been watching enough of them. That and the ones you do miss, you seem to hyper focus on only the negatives and the positives simply go over your head.

Scripe? You mean this guy?



Wow!

[Tyris Flare]

But I'm getting to the point personally where I'm so jaded that I do not foresee Blizzard improving WoW any longer.

This is just really funny spam linking negative videos and then being shocked that "you are so jaded now."

Anyway, I don't doubt stats for the API or make any denials that the game is in a bad state, definitely the worst since WoD. The new patch helped fix quite a bit, but it's obviously too little too late and it's going to take an expansion to turn the ship around for a lot of players.

But like, it is possible to hold this position (and even think Blizzard is a floundering mess) and also think that Bellular in particular is basically WoW Tucker Carlson, using the same basic tactics and the same ominous background music because this is what drives algorithmic engagement in our society.

If you're going to be cynical about Blizzard and WoW (which you should), you also need to be cynical about content creators who profit from Blizzard's destruction. He is not a shining pillar speaking "the harsh truths," he's a dude trying to make money off a disillusioned fan base.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Scripe? You mean this guy?

Wow!

Are his ideas less valid because he bought gold?

No?

Didn't think so.

As I said, you never contribute anything of value to the conversation. You are continuously just looking for "GOTCHA" moments rather than actually trying to contribute to the conversation.

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This is just really funny spam linking negative videos and then being shocked that "you are so jaded now."

Anyway, I don't doubt stats for the API or make any denials that the game is in a bad state, definitely the worst since WoD. The new patch helped fix quite a bit, but it's obviously too little too late and it's going to take an expansion to turn the ship around for a lot of players.

But like, it is possible to hold this position (and even think Blizzard is a floundering mess) and also think that Bellular in particular is basically WoW Tucker Carlson, using the same basic tactics and the same ominous background music because this is what drives algorithmic engagement in our society.

If you're going to be cynical about Blizzard and WoW (which you should), you also need to be cynical about content creators who profit from Blizzard's destruction. He is not a shining pillar speaking "the harsh truths," he's a dude trying to make money off a disillusioned fan base.

I have no illusions about his money making methods. It seems everyone here is just waving off his opinions because of those money making methods. Can you guys for once in your life address the content rather than just shitting on it before even watching it because "LULZ BELLULAR JUZT A WOW HATOR"

[TomGreen]

Did you reply to the wrong person or something?
I don't care how or why they could solve boosting, because its the playerbase causing the issues.

Stop encouraging mediocre players to buy their way to success, and mediocre players get better and achieve success yourself.

That is why boosting exists in the first place, and it shouldn't. Its a video game that is all about progression. Stop paying to rob yourself of it.

Some players don't like the progression part. Are you saying they should be forced to like it?

[Relapses]

Are his ideas less valid because he bought gold?

No?

Didn't think so.

As I said, you never contribute anything of value to the conversation. You are continuously just looking for "GOTCHA" moments rather than actually trying to contribute to the conversation.

Gee, I don't know man. Maybe a guy who is emblematic of all of the issues boosting causes in this game isn't the best person to listen to for advice about how to ::checks thread topic:: fix the problem of boosting. What's his novel solution? "Remove the token." Big brained stuff there. He's biased as fuck and trying to use his position as a WF raid leader to pretend like his ideas matter more than anybody else's. They don't.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Gee, I don't know man. Maybe a guy who is emblematic of all of the issues boosting causes in this game isn't the best person to listen to for advice about how to ::checks thread topic:: fix the problem of boosting. What's his novel solution? "Remove the token." Big brained stuff there. He's biased as fuck and trying to use his position as a WF raid leader to pretend like his ideas matter more than anybody else's. They don't.

This is why these forums are generally useless. Especially your posts. Rather than engaging in the topic, you just try to find excuses to dismiss everyone else as a bias hater. That's the problem. There's no discussion, just a bunch of screaming of "YOU'RE A HATER, HE'S A HATER".

The ideas he presents have genuine merit. And you haven't even denied or addressed them, just immediately took a giant steaming dump on the board stamped with "HE'S BIAS". And not even "he's bias because he plays another game or anything".

"He's bias because he's a world first raider."

That makes zero sense. It makes negative sense.

[Chakah]

First off, there is zero evidence indicating what percentage of boosting is paid for by token gold.

This is very true as some RMT sites do a gold 'loan' to hide amongst the gold-only boosters.

Tokens may give some players the ability to buy boosts, but they aren't what drive the practice. As long as you have people wanting to be boosted and people wanting to boost, there will be boosting. This is part and parcel of being an MMO.

Tokens are simply a convenient scapegoat in a typical anti-Blizzard narrative, but they really do contribute very little to this alleged "problem" (if you can even call it that) of boosting.

The desire might always be there, but ease of access is the issue.
It's a combination of a loose bot policy and the safety of Blizzard's own RMT tokens that have facilitated the boosting plague.

Boosting used to happen in the form of RMT GDKP runs - a risky proposition that required bots/gold farmers and RMT before the token was a thing.
Now that it's 'safe' to buy a boost, more people engage in it.

Why is that a problem? Boosting hurts guilds. Maybe not the top guilds or casual guilds, but guilds in the middle of the pack. Why struggle to clear raids with other people of differing skill levels and commitment when for a simple swipe, you can have a 'professional' escort and have loot handed to you?
I think a sizable portion of the 'roster-boss' issue is people getting frustrated with progression and resorting to buying a quick AOTC.
Is that a bad thing? I'd think so. I can't imagine people buying a AOTC boost breaking out in discord nerd screams.
Something of value has been lost.

[Relapses]

This is why these forums are generally useless. Especially your posts. Rather than engaging in the topic, you just try to find excuses to dismiss everyone else as a bias hater. That's the problem. There's no discussion, just a bunch of screaming of "YOU'RE A HATER, HE'S A HATER".

The ideas he presents have genuine merit. And you haven't even denied or addressed them, just immediately took a giant steaming dump on the board stamped with "HE'S BIAS". And not even "he's bias because he plays another game or anything".

"He's bias because he's a world first raider."

That makes zero sense. It makes negative sense.

He didn't introduce anything new to the discussion. Am I supposed to give you a minute-by-minute breakdown of everything I find wrong with his ideas simply because you posted a video? The guy's big solution for fixing boosting is to remove the token. Please refer back to any of the hundreds of posts I've made where I explain why this isn't a good idea.

[Cthulhu 2020]

This is very true as some RMT sites do a gold 'loan' to hide amongst the gold-only boosters.

The desire might always be there, but ease of access is the issue.
It's a combination of a loose bot policy and the safety of Blizzard's own RMT tokens that have facilitated the boosting plague.

Boosting used to happen in the form of RMT GDKP runs - a risky proposition that required bots/gold farmers and RMT before the token was a thing.
Now that it's 'safe' to buy a boost, more people engage in it.

Why is that a problem? Boosting hurts guilds. Maybe not the top guilds or casual guilds, but guilds in the middle of the pack. Why struggle to clear raids with other people of differing skill levels and commitment when for a simple swipe, you can have a 'professional' escort and have loot handed to you?
I think a sizable portion of the 'roster-boss' issue is people getting frustrated with progression and resorting to buying a quick AOTC.
Is that a bad thing? I'd think so. I can't imagine people buying a AOTC boost breaking out in discord nerd screams.
Something of value has been lost.

Pretty much all this. There's a huge reason that "middle of the pack" normal raiders have taken the largest dip in participation from 9.0 to 9.1, more than mythic. At least according to Blizzard's own official API.

Oh but those numbers are fake because it's a Bellular video and Bellular MAKES HIS MONEY FROM YOUTUBE.

[Femininity]

Oh but those numbers are fake because it's a Bellular video and Bellular MAKES HIS MONEY FROM YOUTUBE.

You've got to remember that statistics have no basis in reality if people don't agree with who they come from.

[Cthulhu 2020]

He didn't introduce anything new to the discussion. Am I supposed to give you a minute-by-minute breakdown of everything I find wrong with his ideas simply because you posted a video? The guy's big solution for fixing boosting is to remove the token. Please refer back to any of the hundreds of posts I've made where I explain why this isn't a good idea.

I mean your argument against policing and TOS boosting basically introduced the only negative being "Well it won't COMPLETELY stop boosting so why bother?" and hinged that as the entire negative reason as to why it shouldn't be against TOS or policed.

I don't often frequent these general forums, the last couple of weeks have been an exception, so I haven't seen any of your stances on pretty much all of these subjects, and the first 10 pages are almost purely "GOTCHA" or "YOU A HATER" style posts. Probably all the more reason to just put you on ignore then, if you admit you're not here to contribute constructively?

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You've got to remember that statistics have no basis in reality if people don't agree with who they come from.

Well I mean, the numbers came FROM Blizzard's own API. Bellular just put them into easily digestible graphic format. But you're right. Numbers are fake if people don't like the messenger.

[munkeyinorbit]

If you can circumvent the gameplay and get the raid kills and KSM and all that jazz with real money, then that's p2w.

I don't care if you can ALSO elect to go down the route of earning it normally - being able to circumvent that at all with a payment card makes the game p2w. The sooner you realize this, the better it'll be when you realize none of your achievements have any meaning even in the context of the game.

If it is P2W which I agree that it is, then getting the achievements without using the P2W system means it is MORE of an achievement then if P2W didn't exist. It shows that you can achieve in the game despite competing against others who, in some people's eyes, cheat.

To answer your question without your hysteria, Blizzard allows boosting because it is profitable for them. The secondary effects are just secondary. As someone who doesn't buy tokens I don't care about the security side of the tokens.

[Relapses]

Oh but those numbers are fake because it's a Bellular video and Bellular MAKES HIS MONEY FROM YOUTUBE.

You know, it's kind of annoying to have you constantly tell me that my posts are pointless then have you post shit like this right afterward. Nobody (at least not myself or anybody I've seen agreeing with my position) is arguing that Bellular's information is incorrect or wrong. The main criticism I have is that the guy clearly stands to profit from a particular brand of negative PR painted by these numbers. His arguments aren't operating from a position of good faith so I have very little reason to believe the voracity of his claims of wanting the game to be better.

Pretty much all this. There's a huge reason that "middle of the pack" normal raiders have taken the largest dip in participation from 9.0 to 9.1, more than mythic. At least according to Blizzard's own official API.

To wit, you're making a huge leap in logic here. It seems incredibly myopic to correlate the lack of participation in mid-tier levels with solely the prevalence of boosting. There are so many other factors which could be at play that it seems very self-serving to look at one single possibility then make a near-certain statement of fact like that.

[T-34]

Why is that a problem? Boosting hurts guilds. Maybe not the top guilds or casual guilds, but guilds in the middle of the pack. Why struggle to clear raids with other people of differing skill levels and commitment when for a simple swipe, you can have a 'professional' escort and have loot handed to you?
I think a sizable portion of the 'roster-boss' issue is people getting frustrated with progression and resorting to buying a quick AOTC.
Is that a bad thing? I'd think so. I can't imagine people buying a AOTC boost breaking out in discord nerd screams.
Something of value has been lost.

Boosting has always been a thing, not only in WoW, but in all multi-player games, so this is nothing new. And both boosting for money and in-game "gold", other goods and services has always been a thing in WoW and all other multi-player games.
Whether the ability to openly and "legally" for players to exchange money for gold and vice versa has made boosting more common and/or it has become more visible is a good question.

If some people, people that I find sad and pathetic, want to buy their way to some achievement, that better players have done themselves without help many months before, then let them knock themselves out.
There is no way whatsoever that you will stop them.

I personally don't care one bit as I get as far as I can with people who have a similar mind-set as I do.
Neither I and those I play with would ever buy a boost. We have to much self-respect for that.
And it is very easy to spot if someone got a boost or not, especially when you are talking about M+.

The only way to "combat" boosting would be to go after those that want to be boosted. They are the ones who create the market for it.
Instead of blaming Blizzard or the boosters people should start shaming, naming, excluding and guild-kicking people who buy boosts.

All this "outrage" about boosting would be much less if boosting wasn't so public as it is right now.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Anyone watch Preach's Drama Time videos?

A lot of stories have different drama reasons for why normal raiding guilds breaks up, but I've noticed that "Several of our raiders began doing GDKP runs and boosts for gear" once the initial small drama starts, leave, and their leaving creates roster problems that the drama ultimately exacerbates into a disband. It almost feels like a constant to every story now.

[munkeyinorbit]

I got banned for paying for boosting.

No you didn't.

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But you can't circumvent all of it. You still have to have guilds that are willing to do it for gold, etc.

Even if you removed the WoW token, more RL money still buys you a lot of benefits in game. You can have multiple accounts, farm nodes with multiple characters, have multiples of each profession, etc.

I just don't agree that the WoW token = P2W, especially since someone getting boosted is getting boosted by other actual players.

Actual P2W means that Blizzard would have a Sanctum of Domination cash shop and charge you $50 for a loot box for each boss that you could buy once per week. That doesn't exist.

Wrong.

Using real money to purchase in-game currency is the definition of P2W.

[Relapses]

I mean your argument against policing and TOS boosting basically introduced the only negative being "Well it won't COMPLETELY stop boosting so why bother?" and hinged that as the entire negative reason as to why it shouldn't be against TOS or policed.

I don't often frequent these general forums, the last couple of weeks have been an exception, so I haven't seen any of your stances on pretty much all of these subjects, and the first 10 pages are almost purely "GOTCHA" or "YOU A HATER" style posts. Probably all the more reason to just put you on ignore then, if you admit you're not here to contribute constructively?

I've told you repeatedly to do exactly this. You don't need to publicly deliberate whether you see value you in my posts. I promise you I do not care.

[Cthulhu 2020]

You know, it's kind of annoying to have you constantly tell me that my posts are pointless then have you post shit like this right afterward. Nobody is arguing that Bellular's information is incorrect or wrong.

And yet your only response to my pointing at his video for how much 9.0 to 9.1 raiding has dropped was

the guy clearly stands to profit from a particular brand of negative PR which makes it incredibly difficult for me to believe him when he says he "cares about the game."

So you didn't even address the actual argument presented, nor the numbers in the video, you just created a reason to dismiss his videos outright. Going to guess you didn't watch even a second of the video. A LOT of the video is not bellular's opinions. It's a presentation of numbers.

That's the definition of being useless to the conversation, not engaging in what is said. Finding a lame reason to outright dismiss the speaker, rather than the facts within. Address the meat of the argument presented or be called useless to the conversation.

To wit, you're making an incredibly huge leap in logic here. It seems incredibly myopic to correlate the lack of participation in mid-tier levels with solely the prevalence of boosting. There are so many other factors which could be at play that it seems very self-serving to look at one single possibility then make a near-certain statement of fact like that.

Ah look, you finally address the argument I was making a page ago.

Never said it was the sole reason. That's the conclusion YOU jumped to.

It certainly is contributing.

TOS and policing boosting wouldn't stop it completely. But it certain would help in this backward slide the game is in.

Then again, it's very likely there is no recovery from this backslide. Most of the constructive feedback may as well be farts in the wind. As long as people buy into and embrace every piece of monetization thrown at them, and the more it creates record profits (regardless of player participation or satisfaction) the more Blizzard is going to go in that direction. It's why I see seasonal content and battle passes past 10.0 being a very likely thing to happen. Blizzard IS a company after all. They need to make money. Do you hate capitalism? I certainly don't.

[Chakah]

Boosting has always been a thing, not only in WoW, but in all multi-player games, so this is nothing new. And both boosting for money and in-game "gold", other goods and services has always been a thing in WoW and all other multi-player games.
Whether the ability to openly and "legally" for players to exchange money for gold and vice versa has made boosting more common and/or it has become more visible is a good question.

If some people, people that I find sad and pathetic, want to buy their way to some achievement, that better players have done themselves without help many months before, then let them knock themselves out.
There is no way whatsoever that you will stop them.

I personally don't care one bit as I get as far as I can with people who have a similar mind-set as I do.
Neither I and those I play with would ever buy a boost. We have to much self-respect for that.
And it is very easy to spot if someone got a boost or not, especially when you are talking about M+.

The only way to "combat" boosting would be to go after those that want to be boosted. They are the ones who create the market for it.
Instead of blaming Blizzard or the boosters people should start shaming, naming, excluding and guild-kicking people who buy boosts.

All this "outrage" about boosting would be much less if boosting wasn't so public as it is right now.

QFT. I agree with all of this.

But reading your post has connected a new thought in my head.

Boosting is the gaming equivalent of sexwork. /mindblown

I don't really want to get into a long discussion about it, but the parallels are numerous and the issues raised are so similar.
No wonder we don't have any good answers for it.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I've told you repeatedly to do exactly this. You don't need to publicly deliberate whether you see value you in my posts. I promise you I do not care.

I prefer not to ignore anyone, not unless they persistently just harass me no matter where I go. Nor do I care about your opinion if I do it or not. My reasoning is simple.


I prefer actual open dialog to simply ignoring someone because I disagree with them. But this is beyond disagreement, pulling an actual response to the points I've made out of you is like pulling teeth from a rabid lion. I get mauled with useless off topic stuff, strawmen, and other dismissive tripe.