To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Osmeric]

They do share numbers, just the "first day", SL sold 3.7M copies on the first day, which obviously includes pre orders, but it's still sales.

"Burning your good will."

[Essem]

So in regards to Legion and Shadowlands.

Whats more a more fun way to get legendaries?
The random drop from a variety of content (Legion).
A deterministic "grind" to craft the specific one you want (Shadowlands)

Now for me personally the funny thing is. During Legion i would have said the SL way of doing it is better. But after playing both i highly prefer Legion's way of doing it. Now ofc there is RNG to it, it does suck not getting your BiS one early. But there was something WoW'ish and exciting about looting the end of dungeon chest or doing your weeklies.
The problem with tieing a deterministic grind to it is that it will quickly become a chore. Which spamming sources of legion legos never did (to me).

[Kallisto]

The harshest critic WoW has ever had is also likely the most beloved YouTube game critic in the history of YouTube: Total Biscuit. He was eventually so disgusted with what Blizzard was doing that he dropped WoW completely way back around Cataclysm or maybe earlier, can't remember exactly. Can't remember anyone calling him a clickbait hater even though his videos were titled similarly to Preach and Bellular's and, if anything, he was way more critical of Blizzard than they are. And he didn't even get as much into the actual nuts and bolts of the game, he was more pissed off at the cash shop than anything. Remember, Sparkle Pony was originally called TRH because of TB.

The difference is that TB was consistent in his issues with wow. Bellular isn't. His criticisms change like the wind, the biggest one being one week all parts of the game are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too hard for people to get into, then the next week the game is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy to get into. Polar opposites that can't exist in the same game.

[Log Cabin]

So in regards to Legion and Shadowlands.

Whats more a more fun way to get legendaries?
The random drop from a variety of content (Legion).
A deterministic "grind" to craft the specific one you want (Shadowlands)

Now for me personally the funny thing is. During Legion i would have said the SL way of doing it is better. But after playing both i highly prefer Legion's way of doing it. Now ofc there is RNG to it, it does suck not getting your BiS one early. But there was something WoW'ish and exciting about looting the end of dungeon chest or doing your weeklies.
The problem with tieing a deterministic grind to it is that it will quickly become a chore. Which spamming sources of legion legos never did (to me).

Both are garbage. Balance your classes better don't do it around leggos.

[Sluvs]

I would kinda agree with you if WoW was in a good state. Which it's not.

One thing that always stuck with me that a developer once said:

"Player are 100% right about what the problems with the game are. But 100% wrong on how to fix it."

I think it was Mark Rosewater. And while, by sheer number of suggestions, one is bound to be good. Most are probably crap.

[Relapses]

The difference is that TB was consistent in his issues with wow. Bellular isn't. His criticisms change like the wind, the biggest one being one week all parts of the game are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too hard for people to get into, then the next week the game is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too easy to get into. Polar opposites that can't exist in the same game.

You forget, as long as you say "I really want WoW to be better" in every video that you shit on the game in, people are morally obligated to believe you care more for the game than anybody else.

[Cthulhu 2020]

Here's a story for everyone who thinks MMO players cannot design an MMO game.

Way back in the late 90's, there was a popular MMO named Everquest. Everquest was a very PvE focused game, with raiding, and was pretty much the premier open world MMO to play for PvE back then. It was immensely popular, despite the MMO audience being incredibly small.

Now, the game was great at first, but the developers of Everquest began to take the game in a direction that the players did not want. Players began to complain about this direction. Devs just told them they'd like it eventually, and other things completely out of touch devs say.

Now, there was no youtube back then, no way to make videos, but there were forums. Back on first and third party forums, there were several prominent posters, who were lauded by the community for their opinions on ways to fix the game.

These posters wrote up huge posts, with giant bullet lists, paragraphs of information, explanation on player behavior, expectation, etc. They were incredibly well informed and well thought out posts about design. When the Everquest devs were confronted with these big posts, they dismissed them.

"You are not developers, we are, we know how to make games, you don't." Was more or less the response, but in far more PR speak.

So with EQ being the de facto pvp game, many continued to play it. However, ever since 1999 or so, Blizzard had been developing behind the scenes their own MMO quietly. As game developers themselves, they'd never made an MMO. This new MMO ran on the Warcraft 3 engine. The developers of the real time strategy game, Warcraft 3, decided to pursue the help and opinions of these forum posters.

These posters were some of the original designers for WoW. Tigole, Furor, etc.

The original WoW developement team was made up of a lot of former very visible Everquest critics who had been snubbed by both the Everquest white knights and the developers.

Some players mocked these players for thinking they knew better than the devs. When WoW released, and Everquest began hemorrhaging players, the Everquest stans jumped in to defend Everquest. "WoW is a cartoon for kids" "It's a badly designed MMO" "Wow what a carebear MMO, you get handed so much gear for so little work". Criticism of WoW was harsh from the Everquest stans. And even moreso for the former forum posters turned MMO designers.





Now here, years later, we have an example of people not learning from history. Bellular, Preach, Asmongold, and many other content creators are snubbed by Blizzard, and yet they are often asked to be consultants on upcoming games. These guys, basic content creators and commentators make tons of money not just on entertainment, but for their opinions on games.

I'm fine with WoW continuing to snub the opinions of its content creators. I WANT WoW to come back from the brink, but if your hubris and pride tells you that WoW is fine with the direction it's going in, and the devs follow that line of thinking, you'll get the game you deserve. And it will most likely go the way of EQ within a few years.

Let history repeat itself.

- - - Updated - - -

You forget, as long as you say "I really want WoW to be better" in every video that you shit on the game in, people are morally obligated to believe you care more for the game than anybody else.

They have incredible ideas. And I believe their sincerity far more than random self admitted forum shitposters.

[Kithelle]

snip

Look at Ion...he is basically like them, a whole lot of good it giving him charge

[Cthulhu 2020]

But I mean, streamers and youtubers totally can't ACTUALLY have opinions on the game. After all, they're just doing it for the views, for the money. Nope, there's no way a content creator could have come to dislike the game over time due to stupid decisions and snubbing the community feedback. Nope, their outrage over the state of the game is aaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllllll for the views.

Thus we can just toss their opinions out without considering them (in reality because we're really uncomfortable that they're right and want to find an easy way to dismiss them)

[niztheundead87]

let me tell you in this 40 mins video how blizzard is greedy but first support me on patreon sub on my yt channel buy my merch and support my non existent game

[epigramx]

Thus we can just toss their opinions out without considering them

His opinions are bad. E.g. his main point on "bad shards design; bring back tier sets" was that "in the past: tier sets were interesting!"; wat; they were absolutely banal most of the time.

The true purpose of most youtubers is to be click-baiters; most successful ones start honestly; but after a few years many of them become monsters of click bait for money making.

[niztheundead87]

His opinions are bad. E.g. his main point on "bad shards design; bring back tier sets" was that "in the past: tier sets were interesting!"; wat; they were absolutely banal most of the time.

The true purpose of most youtubers is to be click-baiters; most successful ones start honestly; but after a few years many of them because monsters of click bait for money making.

you forget to add one thing tiers sets ARE borrowed power

let also this sink in bellular cant even clear the raid in heroic , or the fact that the highest key he did in time in s1 one was m6 , a fking 6 lol

[Balir]

If anything, Blizzard is Homer, the crew making the car are their passionated devs, the fans are the people in the crowd, and Herbert is Activision in this video.

Classic episode though

100% this.

[Relapses]

They have incredible ideas. And I believe their sincerity far more than random self admitted forum shitposters.

At least my ideas are my own and I don't need to link countless YT videos to support my positions. :^)

[Grimbolt]

You get trolling warnings on this site for writing lol and this pile of poop is allowed to reach 43 pages?

Sure. Why not.

[crusadernero]

Here's a story for everyone who thinks MMO players cannot design an MMO game.

Way back in the late 90's, there was a popular MMO named Everquest. Everquest was a very PvE focused game, with raiding, and was pretty much the premier open world MMO to play for PvE back then. It was immensely popular, despite the MMO audience being incredibly small.

Now, the game was great at first, but the developers of Everquest began to take the game in a direction that the players did not want. Players began to complain about this direction. Devs just told them they'd like it eventually, and other things completely out of touch devs say.

Now, there was no youtube back then, no way to make videos, but there were forums. Back on first and third party forums, there were several prominent posters, who were lauded by the community for their opinions on ways to fix the game.

These posters wrote up huge posts, with giant bullet lists, paragraphs of information, explanation on player behavior, expectation, etc. They were incredibly well informed and well thought out posts about design. When the Everquest devs were confronted with these big posts, they dismissed them.

"You are not developers, we are, we know how to make games, you don't." Was more or less the response, but in far more PR speak.

So with EQ being the de facto pvp game, many continued to play it. However, ever since 1999 or so, Blizzard had been developing behind the scenes their own MMO quietly. As game developers themselves, they'd never made an MMO. This new MMO ran on the Warcraft 3 engine. The developers of the real time strategy game, Warcraft 3, decided to pursue the help and opinions of these forum posters.

These posters were some of the original designers for WoW. Tigole, Furor, etc.

The original WoW developement team was made up of a lot of former very visible Everquest critics who had been snubbed by both the Everquest white knights and the developers.

Some players mocked these players for thinking they knew better than the devs. When WoW released, and Everquest began hemorrhaging players, the Everquest stans jumped in to defend Everquest. "WoW is a cartoon for kids" "It's a badly designed MMO" "Wow what a carebear MMO, you get handed so much gear for so little work". Criticism of WoW was harsh from the Everquest stans. And even moreso for the former forum posters turned MMO designers.





Now here, years later, we have an example of people not learning from history. Bellular, Preach, Asmongold, and many other content creators are snubbed by Blizzard, and yet they are often asked to be consultants on upcoming games. These guys, basic content creators and commentators make tons of money not just on entertainment, but for their opinions on games.

I'm fine with WoW continuing to snub the opinions of its content creators. I WANT WoW to come back from the brink, but if your hubris and pride tells you that WoW is fine with the direction it's going in, and the devs follow that line of thinking, you'll get the game you deserve. And it will most likely go the way of EQ within a few years.

Let history repeat itself.

- - - Updated - - -



They have incredible ideas. And I believe their sincerity far more than random self admitted forum shitposters.

THeres a decent shot that if these people you talk of had the same options of media to convey opinions(Twitch, youtube++), they would never step into the world of making MMORPGs in the first place and instead keep on flushing out complaints videos on a weekly/daily basis.

The people you speak of had no other agenda back then than a wish and desire to create better and good games. The content creators of today(asmon, bellula++) today will never, ever, step out of that world and actually me a game dev. Why would they? As it is now, they can keep on making negative(most of the time) videos and rake in the big bucks without having any real responsibility towards the game. For these content creators, it doesnt matter if 10.0 flops or is great. In fact, its probably better if its shit. Cause then they can make negative videos for 2+ years and when 11.0 is close, they can make hype videos. and so goes the cycle, complaining for views without any responosibiltiy whatsoever.

Never forget that these content creators do what they do for reveneue, likes, views and money. If they really wanted too, they could have become game devs and work on games themself. Right now, it works making negative spun videos.

When 10.0 draws closer(with beta), there will be made 12987319831 YT videos about how hype it will be. When 10.0 launches, its initial hype videos. 6+ months in, the negative spun videos begin. They keep on coming until 11.0 is getting close, then repeat it all.

[Seranuelian]

The amount of gigabrains on bags of copium from blind blizzard fans here is quite the juice.

[Relapses]

The amount of gigabrains on bags of copium from blind blizzard fans here is quite the juice.

...says the dude on a freshly minted burner. Come on, man -- you can do better.

[MeTaL GuArD]

I find it funny that Preach actually reacted to this thread, and one of the first things he said was "but I haven't done any WoW content in months, why am I here?".

[Kralljin]

The people you speak of had no other agenda back then than a wish and desire to create better and good games. The content creators of today(asmon, bellula++) today will never, ever, step out of that world and actually me a game dev. Why would they?

I have a good reason: Criticizing a game and actually being a game developer are two vastly different things.

Disregarding that making a video game isn't something you just "do", let alone an MMORPG.
It's frankly the weakest criticism you can have towards anybody, it's not a reasonable suggestion to tell someone to learn how to develop a video game (which takes years, mind you), start a business take on a huge loan that will sink you financially for the rest of your live if you fuck up, in order to be in a valid position to criticize another video game.
Not even mentioning that is also a life altering decision, if you don't like working 10h/day for a few months / years, then developing an MMO from scratch may not be a good career path.

We can all argue all day whether suggestion X or Y is good/bad, but you can't just tell people that when they dislike an aspect of a video game that they're "wrong" or reminding them that they're not a dev and thus their criticism is invalid somehow.
This is not how this works, you don't need to be a veteran in game design in order to "legitimately" dislike something.

When 10.0 draws closer(with beta), there will be made 12987319831 YT videos about how hype it will be. When 10.0 launches, its initial hype videos. 6+ months in, the negative spun videos begin. They keep on coming until 11.0 is getting close, then repeat it all.

People like Asmongold or Bellular have also criticized Shadowlands quite frequently durings its Beta.

Case in point: Covenants