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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    Yes, fake kindness is better than no kindness and passive agressiveness is better than hostility.
    Those are good things! What is wrong with you?! lol
    DPS meters are not censored. Outright mistreating other people over them is.
    Pretty sure you can still remove the low dps if you want. You just can't say why or make up an excuse. Is it so difficult not to behave like a jackass? *shrugs*

    Yup, that is the best solution in every mmo.
    I don't agree at all, but then again I'm an adult I guess? I just ignore the negative in WoW and other games. I don't want people to pretend to be nice to me, and being passive aggressive, or secretly mean is pretty shitty over all.

    So how do you remove a low DPS player if you can't say why or make up an excuse? You can't tell the truth or lie? I've also heard from dozens of people you can't post or talk about meters, because using mods is technically against the rules. Here is a thread of 68 comments, the first post on google I found about the subject where basically they all say you can't use/post/talk about parsers in game without fear of bans. At best they say "talk about it in a secret way..."

    I'm really unsure why you think being fake and "secretly" nice to people is even remotely a good thing. Thats the same as any toxic workplace, where any work email is basically seething with rage and sarcasm, but in a PC/nice way.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by The Dark One View Post
    That's disingenuous, you could AFK in any dungeon in any game with no repercussions - Other than earning yourself a bad rep eventually.

    As for the other point, you will absolutely not be breaking ToS for giving someone advice on how to improve their play. For example, "did you know you can combo that move if you did xyz?" - Alerts the player that you know they're slacking while not breaking ToS. Public shaming goes a long way.

    vs.

    "Hey fuckface, push more than one button [insert random obscenity]" = Ban town.

    Basically, don't be a dick, and you're cool.
    Afk a whole dungeon is being a dick.

    In wow, you won't be ban for calling out the afker, you will in FF.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    This whole "There's only fake kindness" stuff is absolute rubbish, lmao. Had nothing but good experiences.
    It's because it is. The claim is so fucking nebulous that it fits any meaning any detractor wants it to mean without ever providing an explicit example. And when somebody does try to make one, they just lie, like this idea that you can just afk an entire dungeon and if you try to kick someone, YOU will be infracted instead. Which just does not happen.

    So they never provide an example or the thing they do claim is just factually, objectively, false.

    You get out of the community what you bring to it. If you show up and are being a passive aggressive toxic asshole, people will not put up with your shit and you will be dealt with accordingly.

    That's not "fake sympathy" it's "Not tolerating assholes."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    In wow, you won't be ban for calling out the afker, you will in FF.
    No, you don't lol

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Swnem View Post
    How is it wrong? This opposed to outright verbal abuse and humiliation? That is super healthy for the group, i bet!
    Get over it. It's not hard to not be a complete entitled jackass over a game. A game does not make one better than others, that they are entitled to harass and abuse. Being civilized and treating people like human beings is not hard as you recognize.

    If unhappy and about to short a fuse... leave? Disband and make a new group? Why make this more complicated than it is?

    As for the issue of having tools be officially supported, you heard from yoshiP that it will turn into open hostility and we all know he is right cause we can all see it in WoW. It's toxic and no one likes it.

    You are taking an elitist aproach. Gear improves every few months making previous encounters easier. You only think like this cause you want to clear it asap.
    The solution is to find like minded individuals, not theoreticly throwing abuse at others as "feedback" cause they don't have the same priorities you do.

    Nothing justifies abuse and ToS enforcing people to be civilized is a great thing i wish every game did.
    I like how you are being extremely rude in this very post while scoffing at people that dislike the strict ToS.

    Its also completely ridiculous that you think the only two options are "abuse" and "be fake nice while hiding a dagger behind your smile."

    Also forcing someone to be civilized does not actually make them civilized. This can easily be shown by those players behavior outside of the game.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I don't want people to pretend to be nice to me, and being passive aggressive, or secretly mean is pretty shitty over all.
    Nobody is forced to 'pretend to be nice' to anyone. You are not required to say hi or welcome people in a group chat. You can play just like WoW if you want, totally say nothing and then just leave the dungeon without speaking to anyone. Nothing will happen to you.

    So how do you remove a low DPS player if you can't say why or make up an excuse
    The amount of times this even matters in the random dungeon finder is almost nil. The only time you're likely to be 'called out' for being shitty in dps is in your own private free company groups. The ToS is meant to protect random people from other random assholes. You free company can clearly choose to just not include you in cutting edge content if you are a bad player.

    I'm really unsure why you think being fake and "secretly" nice to people is even remotely a good thing.
    Have you ever possibly considered that perhaps people are being genuinely nice? I swear people have played WoW too long and immediately assume everybody they deal with are being secret passive aggressive assholes. Play literally any other game besides Warcraft my guy, even if its not FF14.

    Its also completely ridiculous that you think the only two options are "abuse" and "be fake nice while hiding a dagger behind your smile."
    You are inventing scenarios that almost never happen. The Random Duty Finder dungeons are not difficult enough that having someone not mastering their rotation is going to make the group impossible. The only time that is going to happen are on the cutting edge fights where you are almost never randomly grouping up with people. And you can absolutely be removed from random groups like that IF you do happen to random into an Extreme or something for not doing good enough damage.

    You either have not played the game and are just listening to what people who are lying are saying...or are just lying.

    You are inventing things to be mad about because people dared to suggest that perhaps the FF14 community isn't as toxic as the WoW one and you're clearly just mad about it. The desire should to make less online spaces like the Warcraft one, not try to normalize the Warcraft community's behavior in every other community.
    Last edited by Drindorai; 2021-11-26 at 08:57 AM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommi View Post
    Being honest, the nominees weren't exactly great

    Destiny 2
    Dreams
    Final Fantasy 14 (winner)
    Monster Hunter Rise
    Magic: The Gathering Arena
    No Man's Sky: Origins
    I can't believe League of Legends wasn't in the running.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    I don't agree at all, but then again I'm an adult I guess?
    Seeing this from someone with the name "Lemon Party Fan", just struck me as funny.

    I just ignore the negative in WoW and other games. I don't want people to pretend to be nice to me, and being passive aggressive, or secretly mean is pretty shitty over all.
    But you're clearly not ignoring it, because it's colored your view on when people are actually nice and thinking they're really secretly being mean or passive aggressive...

    So how do you remove a low DPS player if you can't say why or make up an excuse? You can't tell the truth or lie? I've also heard from dozens of people you can't post or talk about meters, because using mods is technically against the rules. Here is a thread of 68 comments, the first post on google I found about the subject where basically they all say you can't use/post/talk about parsers in game without fear of bans. At best they say "talk about it in a secret way..."
    Why is your first response to someone having low dps to remove them, instead of offering to help them? That's pretty telling about you, imo... But to answer your question: you can't say "hey, your dps numbers are too low. Gtfo scrub until you git gud"... but you CAN say something like "Hey, you seem to be having trouble doing your rotation properly with this encounter. I've been watching your attacks and noticed that you're not doing them right. We'd like to get someone else in who would stand a better chance at doing both properly, so I'm sorry but we're gonna remove you from the group."

    I'm really unsure why you think being fake and "secretly" nice to people is even remotely a good thing. Thats the same as any toxic workplace, where any work email is basically seething with rage and sarcasm, but in a PC/nice way.
    I'm not sure why you think most people in XIV are "secretly" being nice... I think you and other WoW players saying something similar have been dealing with the mudbog that is the average WoW playerbase for so long, that it's literally colored your opinion on everything you see. Sure there are assholes in that game (there are assholes in EVERY game, it's impossible to avoid them) but I've been playing XIV since the 3rd phase of the beta back in 2013 and have only let my sub run out for one month in that timeframe... and I've *never* encountered another player that I thought was secretly being nice to me. But I left that "god everybody around me just sucks why are they dragging me downnnnnn" mentality behind in the end of Pandaria when I bailed on that game.

    Passive aggressive? Sure, but you run into those people everywhere. It's not unique to XIV or even MMO's in general.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Afk a whole dungeon is being a dick.

    In wow, you won't be ban for calling out the afker, you will in FF.
    I've vote kicked loads of people for being afk in a duty and have never been banned for doing so... but I also resist the temptation to insult them before doing so, so maybe that's your problem? There are different ways of calling somebody out besides insulting them, you know.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittahsmash View Post
    Kinda funny coming from someone with the name "Lemon Party Fan", just struck me as funny.

    But you're clearly not ignoring it, because it's colored your view on when people are actually nice and thinking they're really secretly being mean or passive aggressive...


    Why is your first response to someone having low dps to remove them, instead of offering to help them? That's pretty telling about you, imo... But to answer your question: you can't say "hey, your dps numbers are too low. Gtfo scrub until you git gud"... but you CAN say something like "Hey, you seem to be having trouble doing your rotation properly with this encounter. I've been watching your attacks and noticed that you're not doing them right. We'd like to get someone else in who would stand a better chance at doing both properly, so I'm sorry but we're gonna remove you from the group."



    I'm not sure why you think most people in XIV are "secretly" being nice... I think you and other WoW players saying something similar have been dealing with the mudbog that is the average WoW playerbase for so long, that it's literally colored your opinion on everything you see. Sure there are assholes in that game (there are assholes in EVERY game, it's impossible to avoid them) but I've been playing XIV since the 3rd phase of the beta back in 2013 and have only let my sub run out for one month in that timeframe... and I've *never* encountered another player that I thought was secretly being nice to me. But I left that "god everybody around me just sucks why are they dragging me downnnnnn" mentality behind in the end of Pandaria when I bailed on that game.

    Passive aggressive? Sure, but you run into those people everywhere. It's not unique to XIV or even MMO's in general.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I've vote kicked loads of people for being afk in a duty and have never been banned for doing so... but I also resist the temptation to insult them before doing so, so maybe that's your problem? There are different ways of calling somebody out besides insulting them, you know.
    When I was "punished" (being tp in a cell with an admin and we had a friendly chat, it was not harsher because it was my first time), I said something along the line :'Would be great if we were not only 3 people doing the dungeon'. We did not even try to kick him because we could not due to the 15min period and the loot rolling.

  9. #69
    Yeah I've had a group where somebody who had multiple other level 80 tanks playing a Palading and refusing to put their tank stance on and after a boss and a half of dungeon of us pulling aggro and asking the tank to please put on tank stance, we removed him. Nobody was in trouble and nobody got infracted. The Paladin was clearly playing the game, but was just running from pack to pack auto attacking and not using abilities.

    I swear it's like people have no idea how to remove a player without unleashing a barrage of insults.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    When I was "punished" (being tp in a cell with an admin and we had a friendly chat, it was not harsher because it was my first time), I said something along the line :'Would be great if we were not only 3 people doing the dungeon'. We did not even try to kick him because we could not due to the 15min period and the loot rolling.
    I don't believe you, sorry. I do not think that is all you said. I think you're absolutely editorializing the situation to make yourself look like the victim.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    This whole "There's only fake kindness" stuff is absolute rubbish, lmao. Had nothing but good experiences. The only bad apples I saw were WoW bootlickers coming into the first dungeon and immediately start shit talking the game to the group.

    Been an overwhelmingly positive experience for the last 7 years for me from the entire community. So if the community is so bad, why does nearly everyone who plays the game for more than 2 hours say the same thing I do? How does the game win accolades and awards for the overwhelmingly positive community? I haven't encountered any of this supposed passive aggressive culture.

    Well, except for the people who come from another game, play the game up to level 18, go "This game sucks, the community is garbage, don't understand how anyone could like this game." then run back to their other game.

    I've asked people who said the community is passive aggressive to give me an example. They never do. It's just one of those things that people addicted to other MMOs tell each other and pass around to each other to reaffirm their dislike of FFXIV among each other. This supposed "passive aggressive culture". I will say, if you come into this game and start dumping on it, or dumping on the people in it, you're not going to get a direct confrontational response most of the time. You're just going to get reported. If you think that's "passive aggressive culture", NO, that's just you being an asshole and people not wanting to deal with you.

    I won't deny that bad things can and do happen, but it's your basic interpersonal drama shit. The community, as a whole entity across the forums, reddit, twitter, etc. are all incredibly welcoming. I log into FFXIV, talk to my FC, talk to my friends, the novice network is talking about random shit, my linkshells are abuzz with RP and general chatter.



    I imagine this whole "passive aggressive culture" myth stems from the lie that assholes tell each other. "Everyone is an asshole, some of us are just honest about it." It's a case of classic projection. They can't see themselves as being able to vent the negative energy in their lives at anything other than other people, so they cannot see other people doing anything but the same as them. However when they see all of these people being nice, they tell themselves "Oh they can't be genuinely nice, they're trying to get something out of it" or "Oh they're not genuinely nice, they're talking about you behind your back".

    Reality is, a lot of us CAN and DO vent the negative energy in our lives in non toxic ways. That's what toxicity is, venting your own negative energy at other people. Some of us have very low levels of negativity just because we exercise a lot, get a lot of endorphins, have loving and supportive families, etc. What remaining energy is vented off through meditation and other non toxic methods.

    There are some genuinely nice people, and just because you don't see them being toxic, doesn't mean they're being toxic behind your back. You met a person who was? Congratulations. Your anecdote does not data make.
    This post really is a mess. You literally go from asking for examples to telling people to shove off with their examples? What data exactly is accepted for "passive aggressiveness?"

    Not only that, but in a post talking about how the FF community (which you are part of) is so pleasant and nice ... you go from calling people liars and assholes, to you guessed it, passive aggressiveness, and then telling people their experiences in the game don't matter. Which is all fairly toxic. You just ironically ranted at us while being toxic. Whats worse is you use your own anecdotes while telling anyone else theirs don't count.

  11. #71
    Not only that, but in a post talking about how the FF community (which you are part of) is so pleasant and nice ... you go from calling people liars and assholes, to you guessed it, passive aggressiveness, and then telling people their experiences in the game don't matter. Which is all fairly toxic. You just ironically ranted at us while being toxic. Whats worse is you use your own anecdotes while telling anyone else theirs don't count.
    I love this tactic of somebody clearly not interested in a neutral discussion comes in with a hostile or aggressive take and then people respond to your own tone appropriately and they go, 'SEE YOU'RE ALSO BEING AN ASSHOLE, POINT PROVEN."

    Everyone can see what you're doing.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    Yeah I've had a group where somebody who had multiple other level 80 tanks playing a Palading and refusing to put their tank stance on and after a boss and a half of dungeon of us pulling aggro and asking the tank to please put on tank stance, we removed him. Nobody was in trouble and nobody got infracted. The Paladin was clearly playing the game, but was just running from pack to pack auto attacking and not using abilities.

    I swear it's like people have no idea how to remove a player without unleashing a barrage of insults.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't believe you, sorry. I do not think that is all you said. I think you're absolutely editorializing the situation to make yourself look like the victim.
    Too bad for your argument, but yes, I did not use even a curse word. Still got punished. I could have use a curse word in wow, I can't in FF.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Too bad for your argument, but yes, I did not use even a curse word. Still got punished. I could have use a curse word in wow, I can't in FF.
    You absolutely can, you just can't say things like calling some random player fucking idiot or something.

    Again, your completely and wholly dishonest behavior in this thread is why I think you're absolutely lying.

    I'm perfectly happy with behavior like yours not being okay in FF14. It's not fake positivity. It's not allowing toxic people to be toxic under this 4channish guise of "freedom of speech" meaning you can just say whatever you want to anyone without repercussion. Which happens a total of nowhere in the actual world.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    You absolutely can, you just can't say things like calling some random player fucking idiot or something.

    Again, your completely and wholly dishonest behavior in this thread is why I think you're absolutely lying.
    Haha, stop the drama, dramaqueen.

    "completely and wholly dishonest behavior", look in the mirror.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Haha, stop the drama, dramaqueen.

    "completely and wholly dishonest behavior", look in the mirror.
    It's almost like when you're lying about one thing, I assume you're lying about the other thing. But at this point it's just going in circle so I'm done with you. Enjoy Warcraft, I'm glad your behavior is not allowed in 14.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    When I was "punished" (being tp in a cell with an admin and we had a friendly chat, it was not harsher because it was my first time), I said something along the line :'Would be great if we were not only 3 people doing the dungeon'. We did not even try to kick him because we could not due to the 15min period and the loot rolling.
    I'd be willing the wager the specific way you phrased it is what got you into trouble. Profanity when complaining is pretty well frowned upon (yeah, there's a profanity filter in the game but if you're swearing up a storm you can still be reported for it. Probably the one actual complaint I have about the TOS...) Though if you didn't use profanity, then there's somethin else going on. Maybe one of the other players was friends with the dude?

    Did you finish the dungeon in under 15 minutes? If not, you easily could've kicked them when you got to the final boss and waited the 2 minutes for the loot to automatically roll. If you DID manage to finish the dungeon in under 15 minutes...then you clearly didn't need their help because that's a hella fast clearing time for any sync'd dungeon.

    You should've brought up the afk person in a manner like "Hey, that person looks like they've been afk this whole time. Can we stop for a couple minutes and boot them so they're not being rewarded for mooching off of us?" to the other people in the party. (Though if one of them was friends with that dude, then not even that could've helped you in the vote kick...)

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    You either have not played the game and are just listening to what people who are lying are saying...or are just lying.

    You are inventing things to be mad about because people dared to suggest that perhaps the FF14 community isn't as toxic as the WoW one and you're clearly just mad about it. The desire should to make less online spaces like the Warcraft one, not try to normalize the Warcraft community's behavior in every other community.
    Well lets get some things straight, I don't play WoW anymore. So no, you are wrong.

    Next, your whole post is fallacious. Its a terrible argument for you to say "well either you're lying or people you listen to are lying ...."

    No, I'm not mad. I am calling out people in this thread. That is not mad, good try though.

    I've never been banned or punished in WoW. The only people I have ever reported were gold sellers or people being blatantly racist in Trade for no reason.

    If a large portion of the same community you call toxic (WoW) goes to play FF, then you'd think huh, the toxicity should follow right? Hmm you don't think the incredibly strict ToS and loose definitely of harassment has anything to do with that?

    I do have a roommate who plays FF extensively since I and all our other friends quit WoW. And he has many of the same complaints all the "liars" in this thread have and I have witnessed them with my own eyes. People just running into "fire" and dying on purpose. People doing almost nothing, being semi AFK, etc.

    Why did I call it fake nice? Well for one, the pro-FF poster I responded to called it that. So, he's on your side in this show, but I guess he is just a liar too? Either way, its fake nice if you don't have the flexibility to be anything but. Without ever really being able to test that theory, well, you can't prove anything.

    Except oh wait you can, plenty of passive aggressiveness and more from Final Fantasy players. And I don't know how many shitty things I've seen out of game from that community. But you're probably right, its my eyes deceiving me, and all the sweetest people went to play FF. Thats totally more likely than a strict ToS enforcing itself.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Afk a whole dungeon is being a dick.

    In wow, you won't be ban for calling out the afker, you will in FF.
    Wrong.

    You will be banned for being rude to the AFKer, not for asking if they're ok. If they are not pulling their weight, there are tools to use to remove them.
    Here is something to believe in!

  19. #79
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    WoW will never win that award lol. Or any Blizzard game for that matter, Blizzard caters to toxic behaviour through toxic competitive gameplay. They would need to change up their game philosophy drastically. But I suppose considering when women and minorities are getting harassed, I don't expect it to improve any time soon.
    I love Warcraft, I dislike WoW

    Unsubbed since January 2021, now a Warcraft fan from a distance

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemonpartyfan View Post
    /snip
    Fake nice, is still better than actively toxic. Do you deny this?

    Nothing wrong with ToS being enforced. It's a good ToS.
    Here is something to believe in!

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