9.2 Lore Speculation

[ChairmanKaga]

Pretty sure that’s why Epilogue: Judgement exists, and why Sylvanas has a PH model in that datamined cutscene.

(snip).

That doesn't answer my question. Why have a jailer and a pit where you dump all these irredeemable souls from all over the Universe? Just convert them into fuel. Tormenting them forever is pointless. The "Jailer" only became a thing after they banished Zov he didn't take over a previous Jailer's job.

[sighy]

Pretty sure that’s why Epilogue: Judgement exists, and why Sylvanas has a PH model in that datamined cutscene.

My personal theory is that while no one is going to be “cheering” for her, they are going to give her the judgement of not being eternally tortured all eternity, with her taking up the new “Jailer” judgement for herself, hence recreating the Maw into something less “fucked” and serving as a new “Eternal One” in a way.

The Heroes of Azeroth will most likely be at the center of it all, or they will be the ones standing, giving Sylvanas the final judgement or simply serving as an extension of the First Ones’ will for the cutscene.

- - - Updated - - -

Now, if it is SYLVANAS who is the only that does this shit regarding the will of the First Ones, then imo it would ruin the point of BFA, SL, etc. Sylvanas being the “REAL TRUE MAW WALKER” the entire time doesn’t work.

Thing is the Jailer role had no purpose and pretty much has been established to be a huge mistake, from the get go. So them making a new Jailer just doesn't make any sense. Basically everyone that ended up there did so because either something was broken or they got screwed by the likes of Mueh'zala&co.


BfA and SL are likely best put in the rearview, without causing any more lasting damage to the franchise.

[qwerty123456]

Solo check, and not even tell anyone that’s what he was doing.

Master strategist, btw.

I think he got that title when the Eternal Ones were the only beings in the Shadowlands.

[Mungho]

Solo check, and not even tell anyone that’s what he was doing.

Master strategist, btw.

Hey, if the characters weren't idiots, this plot wouldn't work!

[Super Dickmann]

Hey, if the characters weren't idiots, this plot wouldn't work!

You know what they say, in the land of the smoothbrains the man with one fold is king. The Primus has a higher IQ than the other participants in this plot. At least setting up several contingencies before going off to beat someone who you already defeated before is some kind of reasonable error. Compare and contrast some of the other powerful intellects on display like the Winter Queen and her not phoning her sister, Bolvar delivering the plot device to Torghast after being warned it's stupid, anyone at all working with the Blue Man and just about everything the Archon ever does.

[Mungho]

You know what they say, in the land of the smoothbrains the man with one fold is king. The Primus has a higher IQ than the other participants in this plot. At least setting up several contingencies before going off to beat someone who you already defeated before is some kind of reasonable error. Compare and contrast some of the other powerful intellects on display like the Winter Queen and her not phoning her sister, Bolvar delivering the plot device to Torghast after being warned it's stupid, anyone at all working with the Blue Man and just about everything the Archon ever does.

Hmm, I suppose so. I didn't know the Primus set up contingencies in case of disaster. Making him , as you said, at least marginally smarter then most characters in this sham of a story.

[shoc]

I can't wait for the plot contrivance that will lead to covenant races being playable.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

I can't wait for the plot contrivance that will lead to covenant races being playable.

"Azeroth is important to the fate of the universe. We will come and help protect her."

Probably.

[qwerty123456]

Hmm, I suppose so. I didn't know the Primus set up contingencies in case of disaster. Making him , as you said, at least marginally smarter then most characters in this sham of a story.

His contingencies were giving all his gear he empowered to people who betrayed him so that we could steal it back and empower his statue for some reason when we save his covenant and hiding his sigil in a pretty easy to get place with no warnings not to bring it to him.

[GR8GODZILLAGOD]

His contingencies were giving all his gear he empowered to people who betrayed him so that we could steal it back and empower his statue for some reason when we save his covenant and hiding his sigil in a pretty easy to get place with no warnings not to bring it to him.

And having to find his sword that was hidden in a rock in the middle of lava, have someone pass all the tests of might in order to get the runes to open the door, JUST so they can get the message about how "if you're reading this, Zovaal kicked my ass".

[ChairmanKaga]

I can't wait for the plot contrivance that will lead to covenant races being playable.

Guessing it will involve the speculated Zovval turns on the machine and kinda wins but is stopped but there are ramifications ending.

[Mungho]

His contingencies were giving all his gear he empowered to people who betrayed him so that we could steal it back and empower his statue for some reason when we save his covenant and hiding his sigil in a pretty easy to get place with no warnings not to bring it to him.

Well, I hadn't followed the Primus' actions in the story that closely, so I didn't know that. There's such a thing as too much complexity and obtuseness. I retract my statement: he's just a plot-stupid as the other characters.

[Niwes]

The primus is the reason all this shit happened. He decided to go solo check on the Jailer while he was naked and then has been pumping out weapons of mass destruction for him for god knows how long.

why noone ever questioned the Primus to be bad ?

i personally dont like him and i dont trust him. even in m+ when you killed a trait guy, he sounds like the Imperator to me, in the „Skywalker kills Count Doku“ scene.

- „kill him“
- „take his power“

why nobody ever questioned if he maybe is another part of Zovaals control ?

- who built the new sigil (that Zovaal needs too) ?
- who was away for a long time ?
- who handed out „accidentally“ nearly everything to Zovaal ?

i dont know. when i hear his talks… no clue, i never really trusted him.

[huth]

Well, I hadn't followed the Primus' actions in the story that closely, so I didn't know that. There's such a thing as too much complexity and obtuseness. I retract my statement: he's just a plot-stupid as the other characters.

That's like saying you didn't follow the story.

And he still did more than the rest of those doofuses combined, so in comparison, he's certainly the most cunning strategist around.

i dont know. when i hear his talks… no clue, i never really trusted him.

Well, without him, we wouldn't be able to follow Zovaal at all. So why would he help us? All he'd need to do at this point is say that he can't find a way to Zereth Mortis.

[Super Dickmann]

Hmm, I suppose so. I didn't know the Primus set up contingencies in case of disaster. Making him , as you said, at least marginally smarter then most characters in this sham of a story.

He dropped off a message explaining what he meant and put the plot device main to the baddie's plan in a remote location where, if Bolvar hadn't handed it over to him, he'd have foiled it. He also sealed that message behind a sword that only activated if a bunch of criteria (including beat on some of the traitors to him) were met.

Besides, it helps to remember that the root of his mistake, that he still at least prepared for, was going to check on a dude bound in bondage who he'd personally scarified last go around and believing he could defeat him again. It's an error a human being would make even if it didn't work out. And he took actual steps to make up for his error later with being the guy organizing everything after you bust him out.

[Sondrelk]

He dropped off a message explaining what he meant and put the plot device main to the baddie's plan in a remote location where, if Bolvar hadn't handed it over to him, he'd have foiled it. He also sealed that message behind a sword that only activated if a bunch of criteria (including beat on some of the traitors to him) were met.

Besides, it helps to remember that the root of his mistake, that he still at least prepared for, was going to check on a dude bound in bondage who he'd personally scarified last go around and believing he could defeat him again. It's an error a human being would make even if it didn't work out. And he took actual steps to make up for his error later with being the guy organizing everything after you bust him out.

I would argue it was stupid to leave him there unattended. There should have been some kind of monitoring system to at least check whether he was still bound securely.

Of course, there could have been. We know so little of how the Maw actually functions that really it's all guesswork.
Maybe the constructs are subjugated souls, maybe they are guards meant to ensure Zovaal doesn't escape.
Maybe Torghast was always meant to be able to pull in other realms, maybe it was altered once Zovaal was freed.

[Thestrawman]

He's no doubt going through the normal Alliance character reeducation camp, where he'll learn to accept anything the Horde dishes out while smiling, thanking them, and asking for more. Otherwise, he's worse than them because the twenty year message of Warcraft to Alliance is that victims shouldn't pursue justice.

Just like Blizzard HR message to the employees.

[UndedoKoleda]

I would argue it was stupid to leave him there unattended. There should have been some kind of monitoring system to at least check whether he was still bound securely.

Of course, there could have been. We know so little of how the Maw actually functions that really it's all guesswork.
Maybe the constructs are subjugated souls, maybe they are guards meant to ensure Zovaal doesn't escape.
Maybe Torghast was always meant to be able to pull in other realms, maybe it was altered once Zovaal was freed.

My own theory about what happened is that the Primus went to the Maw with a unit of guards, who were traitors working for the Jailer. They helped Zovaal subdue the Primus, then returned to Maldraxxus as if nothing happened.

Primus would have warned someone, that he intends to visit one of the most dangerous beings in the Shadowlands, plus he is the de-facto leader of the Shadowlands military machine, so I doubt he is allowed to go anywhere by himself. That's why it appeared that nobody in the entire Maldraxxus knew what happened to him, there were some who did indeed knew, but hid that info on purpose.

On another note- I fully expect the Maw to be undone after we defeat the Jailer. This means, when we defeat Zovaal, there shouldn't be another Jailer after him. It makes no sense for he Maw, as an afterlife, to exist in the first place. If the Jailer was the only prisoner there, sure. In WoW we don't have religion to tell the mortals that if they don't behave while alive, they'll suffer in death. You die and you learn that you're supposed to be tortured until the end of time, that's it.

Why would you punish someone who wasn't even aware that an afterlife exists, let alone that there is a part of it to punish and make souls suffer for eternity? Was that what Sylvanas fought against? If so, it would actually make sense. Still wouldn't explain why she decided to work alongside Zovaal, tho...

[Super Dickmann]

I would argue it was stupid to leave him there unattended. There should have been some kind of monitoring system to at least check whether he was still bound securely.

Oh, he's still not some peak intellect, he just ranks higher than anyone else in this plot. I'm partial to the idea that Torghast used to be Oribos and be the center of the Shadowlands, with Oribos being as artificial as the Arbiter herself, given that the when the Jailer gets the final plot device he still maintains his aesthetic.

Of course, there could have been. We know so little of how the Maw actually functions that really it's all guesswork.
Maybe the constructs are subjugated souls, maybe they are guards meant to ensure Zovaal doesn't escape.
Maybe Torghast was always meant to be able to pull in other realms, maybe it was altered once Zovaal was freed.

The recurring problem with this expansion where it's the wrap-up to preludes that don't exist and plot reveals hinge on pulling back a curtain you didn't know was there or subverting a rule you didn't think was there. I'm curious how it would have gone over if literally any prior element had been considered more than 2 years ago. A one-off quest in the Maw or allusions to the Blue Man, Ardenweald explicitly being a part of the Emerald Dream, etc.

[Sondrelk]

Oh, he's still not some peak intellect, he just ranks higher than anyone else in this plot. I'm partial to the idea that Torghast used to be Oribos and be the center of the Shadowlands, with Oribos being as artificial as the Arbiter herself, given that the when the Jailer gets the final plot device he still maintains his aesthetic.



The recurring problem with this expansion where it's the wrap-up to preludes that don't exist and plot reveals hinge on pulling back a curtain you didn't know was there or subverting a rule you didn't think was there. I'm curious how it would have gone over if literally any prior element had been considered more than 2 years ago. A one-off quest in the Maw or allusions to the Blue Man, Ardenweald explicitly being a part of the Emerald Dream, etc.

I will say what I have said before. This expansion would have worked much better if we spent the majority of the time on Azeroth, and the Shadowlands instead came to us.
We would have lost some of the more spectacular elements like the Maldraxxus arena, or Revendreth. But we wouldn't have had so many questions that need to be answered, and could instead leave a layer of mystery.


Though given what we have it is still shocking to see how little has been actually explained that kinda needed to be.
Who or what deactivated the Arbiter? Was it the death of Argus? Something done by Xavius? It could have been Denathrius, but if it was then it's certainly never explained.

Other questions that should have been made clear as well. Was Denathrius always in league with the Jailer? Did he pretend to go against him to aid him later, or was he converted to his side after the betrayal?

Are the constructs in Torghast using real souls? If so, are they the evil souls? Converted souls? Is Torghast the original Oribos in a sense? And if so, were there Constructs aiding Zovaal when he was the Arbiter?

By diving headfirst into the Shadowlands questions like these become inevitable, and the game makes no indication it intends to answer them at all. Even the Maw Lore quest items just talk about mostly meaningless stuff like that the Jailer likes to torture souls, or that there are flight routes for the Forsworn.