To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Dont know if you saw the Mark Rosewater video early on in this thread but he explains it pretty well, in a nutshell the playerbase is excelent at point out problems and awfull at finding the solutions, that onus is and should always be on the developer side, to understand from feedback what's not working, and coming up with solutions.

But that's the problem. The players find the problems, explain exactly what they are and why, then Blizzard ignore them and go ahead with their plans regardless. Then everything the players pointed out comes to pass, and we get shitty mechanics and gameplay that drives people away. Eventually those people providing feedback are going to assume that Blizzard wants to make games this way, because what other explanation is there?

If they were still making high quality engaging games, they'd be in a position to say to players "trust us, we know what we're doing". But instead they have a track record of ignoring feedback that's later proven to be 100% right. You'd think at some point they'd realise they should be listening, but nothing we've seen so far suggests they've reached that point yet.

[Tyris Flare]

Massively OP has a really nice article out today specifically talking about former WoW players turned into FFXIV evangelizers and possible reasons for their positions. It posits that most FFXIV players just play their game and it's the new FFXIV players that came from WoW who are the ones making the most noise about how great FFXIV is, and it makes a lot of sense. The arguments could also reasonably apply to the copium-addicts who frequent the forums, defending WoW from all scurrilous accusations.

When ex-World of Warcraft fans become Final Fantasy XIV partisans

It is a fascinating psychological phenomenon very well exemplified on this forum. And if you are in still in touch with a community, everyone probably knows *that guy* who is now obsessed with telling everyone about his new girlfriend.

It is weird, but to be perfectly honest...I think I was the same way around 2010 or so. I quit for the first time at the end of the first tier in Cataclysm, and it was a great time to do so with the near constant deluge of new AAA MMOs - Rift, SWTOR, Gw2, etc. A lot of folks quit with me, and we basically couldn't help ourselves from shitting on WoW and even trying to convince friends who were still playing it that it was terrible.

Looking back, it is incredibly embarrassing. I wish I had just walked away and let people who still enjoyed the game have fun with it - it would have been better for me and them. People who do this just come across like complete tools.

I'm hopeful that the newest crowd doing this with FF14 will eventually just get on with their lives, too. You don't need to validate your decisions to anyone.

[voidillusion]

But that's the problem. The players find the problems, explain exactly what they are and why, then Blizzard ignore them and go ahead with their plans regardless. Then everything the players pointed out comes to pass, and we get shitty mechanics and gameplay that drives people away. Eventually those people providing feedback are going to assume that Blizzard wants to make games this way, because what other explanation is there?

If they were still making high quality engaging games, they'd be in a position to say to players "trust us, we know what we're doing". But instead they have a track record of ignoring feedback that's later proven to be 100% right. You'd think at some point they'd realise they should be listening, but nothing we've seen so far suggests they've reached that point yet.

You're absolutely right, and that's why the game is in the dogshit state it is for a long time now, although this is obviously opinion based, and to each its own.

What i struggle to see is the relation random youtubers, that people only follow and see if they want, have with the issue itself.

[niztheundead87]

You're absolutely right, and that's why the game is in the dogshit state it is for a long time now, although this is obviously opinion based, and to each its own.

What i struggle to see is the relation random youtubers, that people only follow and see if they want, have with the issue itself.

the problem with some streamers and youtubers is most of them have a biased view because people like bellular noticed that negativity sells more and so they went down the clickbait / outrage mob pandering rabbit hole. the main problem is people like asmongold have a cult like following that will bash anyone that has a different point of view than the streamer / youtuber they view as a prophet.

[Relapses]

You're absolutely right, and that's why the game is in the dogshit state it is for a long time now, although this is obviously opinion based, and to each its own.

What i struggle to see is the relation random youtubers, that people only follow and see if they want, have with the issue itself.

Becuase people who've already checked out of the game continue to consume content related to the game and Bellular's entire channel panders to this demographic. It's one thing if you think the game is dogshit. It's another entirely to be so certain that it's dogshit that you continue to watch hours of content by a guy who is basically just saying exactly what you want to hear without challenging your viewpoints. You don't have to feel bad that you quit WoW, it's not your fault the developers hate fun and made the game extra bad on purpose (because they're dumb and stubborn and bad at making games). You can play another MMO that respects your time and makes you feel good about yourself.

[voidillusion]

Becuase people who've already checked out of the game continue to consume content related to the game and Bellular's entire channel panders to this demographic. It's one thing if you think the game is dogshit. It's another entirely to be so certain that it's dogshit that you continue to watch hours of content by a guy who is basically just saying exactly what you want to hear without challenging your viewpoints. You don't have to feel bad that you quit WoW, it's not your fault the developers hate fun and made the game extra bad on purpose (because they're dumb and stubborn and bad at making games). You can play another MMO that respects your time and makes you feel good about yourself.

In a sense yes, but that misses the mark. I've seen this many, many times over the years, and to this day i still believe this is the main issue: people go out of their way to attribute blame and in a sense give almost a free pass to Blizz.

The focus shouldnt be youtubers nobody really cares about, they are selling entertainement, a weird form of it you ask me, you can opt in or opt out.

Blizzard almost always gets a free pass, its always that youtuber, or that vocal minority, or whoever else.

The company and its employees are the ones responsible, nobody else, period. If they provided a good product and service, lots more would be playing, lots less would be paying attention to a grifter youtuber trying to make a living.

[Ringthane]

The Joke

Your Head

The point

Your sense of what's actually going on in the world

Your sense of self-worth

Just like proper punctuation - nowhere to be found

Unsurprisingly.

[Vrothgar]

Your head is so far up in your ass i can't even tell, you should thank youtubers to point out every decision Bliiz makaes cuz they have a valid point 9/10 times

[Cthulhu 2020]

THeres a decent shot that if these people you talk of had the same options of media to convey opinions(Twitch, youtube++), they would never step into the world of making MMORPGs in the first place and instead keep on flushing out complaints videos on a weekly/daily basis.

The people you speak of had no other agenda back then than a wish and desire to create better and good games. The content creators of today(asmon, bellula++) today will never, ever, step out of that world and actually me a game dev. Why would they? As it is now, they can keep on making negative(most of the time) videos and rake in the big bucks without having any real responsibility towards the game. For these content creators, it doesnt matter if 10.0 flops or is great. In fact, its probably better if its shit. Cause then they can make negative videos for 2+ years and when 11.0 is close, they can make hype videos. and so goes the cycle, complaining for views without any responosibiltiy whatsoever.

Never forget that these content creators do what they do for reveneue, likes, views and money. If they really wanted too, they could have become game devs and work on games themself. Right now, it works making negative spun videos.

When 10.0 draws closer(with beta), there will be made 12987319831 YT videos about how hype it will be. When 10.0 launches, its initial hype videos. 6+ months in, the negative spun videos begin. They keep on coming until 11.0 is getting close, then repeat it all.

The cycle isn't going to go quite as you expect.

Also, Tigole, Furor, and everyone else had tons of clout on the forums. You say they had no ulterior motive to make design suggestions, but back then there was no monetization of opinions. People sharing their design opinions before monetization of opinions doesn't mean they weren't doing it for ulterior motives. And people sharing their ideas when there's money in it doesn't make that opinion invalid.

Are people so closed minded that they can truly believe ideas are invalid simply because someone makes money for sharing them? It's no wonder WoW continues to circle the drain with devs and a community that think like this.

I have to wonder how many people shitting on Asmongold and others would link their videos back when those people were actually enjoying WoW and praising it.

- - - Updated - - -

At least my ideas are my own and I don't need to link countless YT videos to support my positions. :^)

Press X to doubt that your ideas are 100% original and haven't been influenced in some way by the opinions of others.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Especially when you aren't even willing to post them and just make boring useless contrarian messages to stir up shit.

A good idea is a good idea bruv. Bellular, Preach, and many other content creators told Blizzard that the 9.0 system of covenants was shit. That the "RPG elements" that they were trying to force on players would end horribly. That there needed to be a way to easily and quickly swap. Blizzard went "Nah our ideas are amazing, your feedback is noted but ignored".

Then everyone hated how conduit energy and covenants worked. And Blizzard pulled a full 180. "We were TOTALLY intending to do it this way all along, our changing the system has nothing to do with the game losing over half its players and tons of complaints on every forum."

Ah yes, Blizzard actually implements the changes the content creators were suggesting. But their ideas aren't worth anything BECAUSE IT'S ALL FOR THE CLICKS hurrrrrr.

[TheTaurenChieftain]

Massively OP has a really nice article out today specifically talking about former WoW players turned into FFXIV evangelizers and possible reasons for their positions. It posits that most FFXIV players just play their game and it's the new FFXIV players that came from WoW who are the ones making the most noise about how great FFXIV is, and it makes a lot of sense. The arguments could also reasonably apply to the copium-addicts who frequent the forums, defending WoW from all scurrilous accusations.

When ex-World of Warcraft fans become Final Fantasy XIV partisans

Jeah. That could be a reason.

But... you know... maybe people simply aren't satisfied with the WoW anymore and also aren't satisfied with the situation the company is in right now.
And FFXIV fills that void. FFXIV has a lot of systems which stem from WoW before Bfa and Shadowlands.

People wouldn't hate on WoW that much if it was in a good state right now.

FFXIV satisfies a lot of players who want to do all the stuff, which gets neglected in WoW. Whereas in WoW it is raid or M+ or die, you can do a lot of other stuff in FFXIV.

[korijenkins]

Absolute true. Yes, everyone has oppinion and i hope that blizzard also include things that i want, but sorry, neither asmonglers Bellulars, Preachers or whatever will design a good game.

They just want what they want, not the majority of the playerbase: Asmon for example is always blubbering about LFR for example; but more people play lfr than mythic, heroic and maybe even normal.

Is this game right now good? No, absolutely not, i'm not subscribed sine months, but surely not because of LFR (maybe because the waiting times for the unlock are too long and i'm not motivated enough to wait this long) but because of dozends of other things.

But neither Asmon nor the people from ElitistJerks that they hired make a good game.

The majority of the playerbase quit after the game went in the shitter. But sure, keep pretending the >1 million players remaining are somehow the "majority" of the original 12 million playerbase.

[Cthulhu 2020]

In a sense yes, but that misses the mark. I've seen this many, many times over the years, and to this day i still believe this is the main issue: people go out of their way to attribute blame and in a sense give almost a free pass to Blizz.

The focus shouldnt be youtubers nobody really cares about, they are selling entertainement, a weird form of it you ask me, you can opt in or opt out.

Blizzard almost always gets a free pass, its always that youtuber, or that vocal minority, or whoever else.

The company and its employees are the ones responsible, nobody else, period. If they provided a good product and service, lots more would be playing, lots less would be paying attention to a grifter youtuber trying to make a living.

Pretty much this as well. I find it funny that as Shadowlands was shitting the bed throughout 9.0, everyone was blaming the game being bad and people leaving on the content creators. All of the WoW stans were saying the game is fine, and it's all these durn content creator's fault that the game is suddenly doing poorly.

Funny how opinions on Asmongold, Bellular, and Preach ranged from neutral to extremely positive when they were covering WoW news, but once they got sick of the game, once they stopped liking to do coverage on it, that they felt disrespected by the devs (and they sometimes were openly disrespected by WoW devs) that the community suddenly found them to be "extremely toxic and negative".

Perhaps people should stop blaming these people, who made plenty of money from covering WoW news when it was good, for "turning the game bad" when their opinions on the game shifted. Perhaps, people should consider that their opinions being extremely popular is more a sign that Blizzard done fucked up.

If someone as a 15 year player is an avid fan of the game, do you think they're going to take Blizzard's side, or Bellular's side? Well if they feel like the devs are out of touch, the game is unfun, that it's going in the wrong direction, etc. then they'd probably be on Bellular's side here.


Despite all of these claims that people just watch Bellular to reinforce their negative opinions, perhaps people should ask themselves why these content creators have such an enormous audience. If your answer is "Negative press gets more clicks" then I can tell you, 5-10 years ago being negative about WoW got you absolutely nowhere in the sphere.

PERHAPS... PERHAPS... it's because the current direction of WoW is wildly unpopular?



But naw, we can't admit that our pet game is unpopular, that would invalidate our own opinions that WoW is the bestest best that ever bested.

And an additional note. If someone comes onto these forums to dump on people who are criticizing the game, isn't that just partaking in activity to validate your own opinion, just like they're accusing everyone else for doing by watching youtubes? Yes. Yes it is. People think they're different, original, free thinkers. They're not. They all follow their own sources of validation, and dump on everyone else's in a way to feel more justified in their position. It's honestly sad watching some people try to play the "more enlightened" card when their ruse is no different from anyone else.

[Relapses]

People wouldn't hate on WoW that much if it was in a good state right now.

They would. This forum is proof of it. It's a time capsule of toxicity. Go back to Legion, MoP or hell, even all the way back in WotLK -- almost 2/3rds the posts here were the same exact negativity we see nowadays. It's just now people feel a lot more validated in their negativity since they have streamers and YouTubers whispering sweet nothings in their ears 24/7.

edit: Before somebody quotes this and says I'm (yet again) defending Blizzard -- this does not mean that I think the game is in a great state right now. I acknowledge that it has flaws; I'm just commenting on the echo chamber nature of this community (and how it isn't really a new phenomena).

[Cthulhu 2020]

I find it funny that Preach actually reacted to this thread, and one of the first things he said was "but I haven't done any WoW content in months, why am I here?".

Ahahaha this video is perfect response to all of this, more than anyone else could muster.

[Tyris Flare]

Ahahaha this video is perfect response to all of this, more than anyone else could muster.

I just oppose people lumping them all in the same boat. Preach has actual integrity and has made the financially odious decision to stop rage-farming hate for this game and just play what he likes instead. That is admirable (I also agree with almost all of his criticisms about this game, fwiw).

Bellular is like the exact opposite of this. He doesn't have the courage to say fuck it and move on; he realized that it is far more profitable to farm rage for as long as possible, often in stupid exaggerated ways with spooky ominous music.

He also has a lot of stupid opinions about the game in general, unlike Preach who provided excellent and accurate feedback through all of beta. You can feel the hurt in his voice that he feels betrayed (like a lot of us) by the developers, but again, he did not sink to the lowest common denominator in response.

[Makaloff]

what do u mean by Legion screwed the classes? common sensus was that Legion was one of the best expansions ever in that regard. a lot of classes peaked gameplay wise. do you mean where borrowed power started? Cuz i totally agree with that, the fact it was borrowed power (that was great) and u lost it going into BFA without the gap being filled was a major player in how awful classes turned out.

no what i mean is for example how they ruined survival hunter and combat rogue for example. Problem with legion also was that without that borrowed power, the classes were essentially hollow husks of what they used to be. but that aside, Legion was quite fun even if i missed most of it.

[Kralljin]

He also has a lot of stupid opinions about the game in general, unlike Preach who provided excellent and accurate feedback through all of beta.

Which is funny, because Bellular frankly has often taken Preach's opinion at verbatim and just repackaged it.

[Relapses]

Which is funny, because Bellular frankly has often taken Preach's opinion at verbatim and just repackaged it.

...if only Bellular could take Preach's advice on hair plugs, too.

JK, I'm not going to pretend Bellular is capable of takes deeper than, "uh, like, listen to feedback" these days.

[Osmeric]

...if only Bellular could take Preach's advice on hair plugs, too.

Really? You're critiquing him because of his HAIR?!

[Relapses]

Really? You're critiquing him because of his HAIR?!

To be fair, I'm critiquing his lack of hair... they don't call him Baldular for nothing. :^)

(Seriously, I was joking.)