1. #821
    Quote Originally Posted by Dancaris View Post
    And why not? Its not like that arenot a thing anyway. Make black ajah rule WT, then rebels are Light sister. To me its better reason than some inner problems with respect in woman groups.
    Rafe is that you? Fuck the story that was written my way is better and the dude is dead so he can't tell me no.

  2. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Very important to the Books. Not disagreeing. Of course, they haven't, thus far, actually changed who the dragon reborn is, so it's not really a big deal yet. The only thing that's different is that prophecy is less specific regarding who TDR is.

    Sure, that would be a major deviation from the story. But again, it hasnt happened yet.

    And yet changing the prophecy itself doesn't have to change anything about their individual roles.

    They ahven't made any major chnages to the story yet. They've changed the wording of the prophecy
    All fair points (really the same one) however, they are hinting at it with the latest episode. And if they never planned to change who TDR was, then there really is no point in changing the wording of the prophecy or hinting that it could be a woman. That's just virtue signaling and serves no purpose to the overall narrative.

  3. #823
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    All fair points (really the same one) however, they are hinting at it with the latest episode. And if they never planned to change who TDR was, then there really is no point in changing the wording of the prophecy or hinting that it could be a woman. That's just virtue signaling and serves no purpose to the overall narrative.
    Thing is, if you haven't read the books...and most of the audience hasn't...you wouldn't know anything about the prophecy. So it can still serve to allow the people that are coming in fresh to believe that any one of those kids could be TDR.

  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Well, there's two sides to that argument. I agree that "because it's like that in the book" on its own is not the best argument; however, there's often a REASON it's like that in the book and ignoring that reason can make things problematic because it's bad writing irrespective of its book-accurate nature. For example, adding a 10th ring of power to the humans in LotR would be bad writing for an adaptation - not JUST because "it's not like that in the book" but also because there's a REASON there were 9 rings in the book and that has lots of implications for the rest of the story. This is very different from some book detail that does NOT have such implications, like e.g. if it said a character had green eyes (and that had no bearing on the story) then complaining because an actor has blue eyes in the adaptation because it's "not like that in the book" is pretty silly.

    Not all such points of contention are created equal.
    Am I the only one that feels even character descriptions in the films should match the book.

    I won’t whine much if they eye colour or skin colour change if those aspects don’t match the book. But I’d still like them too.

    If the book went on about those piercing blue eyes and ice cold stare repeatedly, is the colour important as long as it looks piercing and icy?

    But then there is a thing about blue eyes appearing cold and brown eyes warm. Changing the eye colour is not trivial it’s important to keep some things.

    No where near on the level of the gender bending of the prophecy. Altho it’s not as bad as it would be if they made the Dragon reborn female or non binary or decided to remove the gender halves of the one power because they weren’t gender neutral.

    That’s just rude.

    Talking about eyes. Didn’t Lan have blue eyes in the book?

    Would it kill actors to sometimes dye their hair or wear coloured lenses to fit the book description?

  5. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Am I the only one that feels even character descriptions in the films should match the book.

    I won’t whine much if they eye colour or skin colour change if those aspects don’t match the book. But I’d still like them too.

    If the book went on about those piercing blue eyes and ice cold stare repeatedly, is the colour important as long as it looks piercing and icy?

    But then there is a thing about blue eyes appearing cold and brown eyes warm. Changing the eye colour is not trivial it’s important to keep some things.

    No where near on the level of the gender bending of the prophecy. Altho it’s not as bad as it would be if they made the Dragon reborn female or non binary or decided to remove the gender halves of the one power because they weren’t gender neutral.

    That’s just rude.

    Talking about eyes. Didn’t Lan have blue eyes in the book?

    Would it kill actors to sometimes dye their hair or wear coloured lenses to fit the book description?
    "I won't whine much about eye colour"

    *Proceeds to whine about eye colour*

  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    I'm not glossing over anything. I'm just saying what is known about the prophecy.

    If Person A is Lews Therin Telamon and Person B is Lanfear....I'd be more worried about Lanfear. Crazy guy at least has good intentions.
    But that's not the choice here. You don't have that extra information about their character. All you know is one WILL go insane, the other will not. Of course it's an easy choice if you know exactly who it is and what's going to happen - BUT YOU DON'T.

    That's the whole reason people are so maniacally afraid of the Dragon Reborn.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Changing the eye colour is not trivial it’s important to keep some things.
    In most cases, it IS trivial in a film adaptation, because it's a different medium. You can barely tell eye color a lot of the time, and barely notice it. In books it's easy to narrow in on particular details because you're not limited by the tools of the medium the same way - to focus in on details like that in a film is tricky. On the other hand, a film can do things like elaborate visuals, which are difficult to convey in text because reading about the background for 3 pages isn't usually the best writing.

    Of course there ARE instances where eye color (as a particular example) is absolutely relevant. Take Dune for example - there the all-blue eyes of the Fremen are a central plot point, and omitting that wouldn't work. But for 99.99% of works, it's an irrelevant detail when it comes to adaptation, because plot doesn't hinge on it.

  7. #827
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But that's not the choice here. You don't have that extra information about their character. All you know is one WILL go insane, the other will not. Of course it's an easy choice if you know exactly who it is and what's going to happen - BUT YOU DON'T.

    That's the whole reason people are so maniacally afraid of the Dragon Reborn.
    People in the book, sure.

    The TV series is establishing a completely different take on it, where it's a fear of a reincarnation into a man would result in a potentially mad Dragon Reborn. There isn't a universal fear of the Dragon Reborn as it exists in the book in the TV series, as we've seen that being challenged already. There's just a general fear that history will repeat itself with another Dragon breaking the world for simply existing. You can argue that it's not as strong a reason as the books and all, but the story works just fine as far as the TV canon is concerned.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-28 at 08:05 PM.

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    People in the book, sure.

    The TV series is establishing a completely different take on it, where it's a fear of a reincarnation into a man would result in a potentially mad Dragon Reborn. There isn't a universal fear of the Dragon Reborn as it exists in the book in the TV series, as we've seen that being challenged already. There's just a general fear that history will repeat itself with another Dragon breaking the world for simply existing. You can argue that it's not as strong a reason as the books and all, but the story works just fine as far as the TV canon is concerned.
    The problem is, that undermines a lot of the foundations of subsequent story lines. It erodes much of the structure of the Aes Sedai, for example - if females could be the Dragon, how do they deal with that within their ranks? Why aren't they constantly paranoid one of them might be the Dragon Reborn? Why is the Red Ajah so powerful if it's not fueled by the mission to subdue male channelers in fear of them turning out to be the Dragon? If the Red Ajah's militarism isn't as pronounced, how does the Black Ajah gain a foothold in the Tower? And so on and so forth.

    Sure you can change things, but the world is built on top of foundational plot points - and if you change those, then everything built on top is in peril as well. They can just gloss over that and ignore the implications, of course; but weakening the world-building in a series beloved for its intricate world-building can backfire spectacularly.

  9. #829
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    No, the prophecies being changed is not a reason why it is "bad". It's just a difference from the books. It doesn't mean it's automatically good either. Just different.

    And a female dragon could be just as dangerous...even while connecting to Saidar. Not all the Forsaken were men after all. Women just don't go insane using the power. It doesn't mean they can't use it for Evil.
    If so, with only 8 episodes , there is no reason to go with the whole men who channel go insane plot line. It would be a waste of time. The whole point of the dragon being male is the extreme danger he poses to everyone.

    There are going to be changes in moving from one medium to the next, but usually it’s for expediency. But with 4 episodes left there is no way they can finish eye of the world making what they did to Perrin’s backstory unnecessary. Not to mention what’s been left out of his so far

  10. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But that's not the choice here. You don't have that extra information about their character. All you know is one WILL go insane, the other will not. Of course it's an easy choice if you know exactly who it is and what's going to happen - BUT YOU DON'T.

    That's the whole reason people are so maniacally afraid of the Dragon Reborn.

    Let me just take a little excerpt of the prophecy for you:

    He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf.

    With his coming are the dread fires born again.
    The hills burn, and the land turns sere.
    The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle.
    The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised.
    Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth.
    There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death
    Now, aside from the gendered pronouns, if we assume the prophecy is the same in the TV series... there's plenty to be, as you put it, "maniacally afraid" about there. The Dragon has to break the world in order to save it. Male or female, sane or insane...the world breaks. Salvation is inexorably linked to Destruction. That's enough reason to be afraid of any Dragon Reborn.

  11. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    there's plenty to be, as you put it, "maniacally afraid" about there.
    There is plenty to be afraid of, but there is MORE to be afraid of if you KNOW they'll go insane. To pretend it's the same whether they're insane or not is... insane.

  12. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    Now, aside from the gendered pronouns, if we assume the prophecy is the same in the TV series... there's plenty to be, as you put it, "maniacally afraid" about there. The Dragon has to break the world in order to save it. Male or female, sane or insane...the world breaks. Salvation is inexorably linked to Destruction. That's enough reason to be afraid of any Dragon Reborn.
    But no more then normal given a world with "in control" female users of the one power. It changes the tone of everything by not having the threat of insanity as the thing to fear with all of that. It isn't the One power and conquering that is feared. It is a man, that carries the taint of the darkone, doing all of that while they go insane and break the world again that was the ultimate threat.

    Right now the prophecies just talk about bombs going off. Where as in the books it was talking about nukes going off from Saidin. It changes the dragon from "Insane potential breaker of the world" to "rebel warlords conquering stuff". You don't want either one but one threat is more normal.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-11-28 at 09:04 PM.
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  13. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Theangryone View Post
    If so, with only 8 episodes , there is no reason to go with the whole men who channel go insane plot line. It would be a waste of time. The whole point of the dragon being male is the extreme danger he poses to everyone.
    Which is one reason why I don't think they will actually change who the Dragon is. Making the change to the prophecy mostly unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

    There are going to be changes in moving from one medium to the next, but usually it’s for expediency. But with 4 episodes left there is no way they can finish eye of the world making what they did to Perrin’s backstory unnecessary. Not to mention what’s been left out of his so far
    Like I have said all along...there's plenty of reason to be concerned about the show itself. 8 episodes for the entire first book is definitely one of them. I think they should have gone with at least 10.

    The changes to Perrin's backstory is another, especially because, thus far, they haven't really done much to show why they decided to do them. I have theories about them...but they're just theories.

    I just don't get hung up on changes that, in the large scale, aren't, in my opinion, likely to make a big difference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But no more then normal given a world with "in control" female users of the one power. It changes the tone of everything by not having the threat of insanity as the thing to fear with all of that. It isn't the One power and conquering that is feared. It is a man, that carries the taint of the darkone, doing all of that while they go insane and break the world again that was the ultimate threat.

    Right now the prophecies just talk about bombs going off. Where as in the books it was talking about nukes going off from Saidin. It changes the dragon from "Insane potential breaker of the world" to "rebel warlords conquering stuff". You don't want either one but one threat is more normal.
    It doesn't matter if the person who breaks the world is sane or insane. World still broke, yo.

    The prophecies hardly even mention madness...aside from saying that the Dragon will "heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope".
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-11-28 at 09:22 PM.

  14. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    The problem is, that undermines a lot of the foundations of subsequent story lines. It erodes much of the structure of the Aes Sedai, for example - if females could be the Dragon, how do they deal with that within their ranks? Why aren't they constantly paranoid one of them might be the Dragon Reborn? Why is the Red Ajah so powerful if it's not fueled by the mission to subdue male channelers in fear of them turning out to be the Dragon? If the Red Ajah's militarism isn't as pronounced, how does the Black Ajah gain a foothold in the Tower? And so on and so forth.

    Sure you can change things, but the world is built on top of foundational plot points - and if you change those, then everything built on top is in peril as well. They can just gloss over that and ignore the implications, of course; but weakening the world-building in a series beloved for its intricate world-building can backfire spectacularly.
    The 'peril' stems from your regard that the worlds are one and the same.

    They are not.

    Let's take a step away to regard other adaptations like LOTR and GoT. The Movie/TV adaptations have major tonal changes for certain scenes, major lore changes, character and plot omissions etc. LOTR movie universe is one where Tom Bombadil does not exist, but Tauriel and a prominent Radagast do exist. GoT is a world where lady Stoneheart does not exist, and that would have had major ripple effects for the story down the line as well.

    The worlds are not the same, and we should not necessarily regard them as having ramifications for later plots when we haven't reached them at all. It's a butterfly effect, but just as LOTR removed Tom Bombadil, they abridged his 'moments' with Treebeard. We don't have lady Stoneheart in GoT, but Brienne's storyline still continues regardless in a different way. These are part of being adaptations. They aren't all following the source in the appropriate order.

    Effectively, adaptations are more like Marvel 'What Ifs' with branching timeline shenanigans. This isn't an audiobook of the novel, it's a TV adaptation with liberal creative differences. The Dragon Reborn potentially being female already assumes that world in the series will not be handled 'as it was in the book'. What you consider a peril is only in the perspective that the TV adaptation has to stick to the book. At the end of the day, it's not the book, so the 'peril' should really end there.

    GoT TV isn't the books, right? The 'perils' that exist in the series start and stop with itself as the TV series. It has no direct connection to the novel world. It is effectively a 'parallel universe'. That's pretty much how any adaptation needs to be regarded as, especially those that we know have immediate changes like we have with Wheel of Time.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-11-28 at 09:52 PM.

  15. #835
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The problem stems from your regard that the worlds are one and the same.

    They are not.
    I understand that perfectly. What I'm saying is, if you change everything from a foundational level, you risk it being bad. That's what we saw in GoT - as soon as the books dropped away, what the writers came up with on their own was terrible.

    There's a REASON Jordan built the world the way he did. If you build it differently, chances are it won't be as good - because Jordan was a good writer, and good writers aren't easy to come by. If we had such an easy time writing good original series, there'd be a whole lot more of them instead of adaptation after adaptation, and reboot after reboot.

    Is this a guarantee it'll suck? No. Nothing ever is. But it's a big warning sign, and historically more deviation has indeed translated to less quality. That's what people are afraid of, and/or are observing in the episodes we have so far.

    Nobody is saying not like the books = bad, but people are saying straying from the books = higher chance it'll be bad. If you personally like the series, by all means, more power to you. What I've watched so far has not captured me, and has turned me off of the series entirely.

    The key to a good adaptation is knowing what is fine to change, and what isn't. Nobody is saying 1:1 truth to the original is the optimal way; it couldn't be, given these are two different media. But there comes a point where you change things for the worse - not because it's different from the books (though it is), but because it's worse storytelling, world-building, character development, etc. all the parameters by which you ordinarily judge any form of content.

  16. #836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    It doesn't matter if the person who breaks the world is sane or insane. World still broke, yo. The prophecies hardly even mention madness...aside from saying that the Dragon will "heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope".
    The prophecies don't mention it because it is such a core thing of the male half of the power. It is tainted. It is what caused the world to break the first time. You highlight perfectly why changing it so Saidin is no longer the threat changes the entire fear of the Dragon. It matters if the person is sane or not. Because what elevates the fear of the Dragon Reborn to a different level is that insanity.

    It is a person they are supposed to trust and work with to do things yet at the same time will be driven insane by the taint of the Dark One. A soul from the age of legends that will be reborn. Madness and all.
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  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    I understand that perfectly. What I'm saying is, if you change everything from a foundational level, you risk it being bad. That's what we saw in GoT - as soon as the books dropped away, what the writers came up with on their own was terrible.

    There's a REASON Jordan built the world the way he did. If you build it differently, chances are it won't be as good - because Jordan was a good writer, and good writers aren't easy to come by. If we had such an easy time writing good original series, there'd be a whole lot more of them instead of adaptation after adaptation, and reboot after reboot.

    Is this a guarantee it'll suck? No. Nothing ever is. But it's a big warning sign, and historically more deviation has indeed translated to less quality. That's what people are afraid of, and/or are observing in the episodes we have so far.

    Nobody is saying not like the books = bad, but people are saying straying from the books = higher chance it'll be bad. If you personally like the series, by all means, more power to you. What I've watched so far has not captured me, and has turned me off of the series entirely.

    The key to a good adaptation is knowing what is fine to change, and what isn't. Nobody is saying 1:1 truth to the original is the optimal way; it couldn't be, given these are two different media. But there comes a point where you change things for the worse - not because it's different from the books (though it is), but because it's worse storytelling, world-building, character development, etc. all the parameters by which you ordinarily judge any form of content.
    The TV series doesn't aim to be as good as the novels. I don't really know why you're applying this when there's a clear difference between a TV adaptation existing for reasons that a TV adaptation exists, and somehow propping it on a pedestal that if it exists then it's goal is obvious to retain the highest level of art form in translating the original series.

    I mean look at Cowboy Bebop, the atrocity that it is. Or any anime live action adaptation, to be frank. The best ones aren't the ones that end up copying everything 1:1. That's not how this works.

    Entertainment value is self contained to the show, to the adaptation, to the original source. Whether something risks being 'bad' is purely subjective, as well. Yes, GoT sucked, but that was mostly because the writers didn't give a fuck by the last couple seasons. If you actually take a look at the series in retrospect, they never adhered to the book in the first place! There's TONS of changes in the first 6 seasons which were all fine, because the broad story was still kept despite all the minor nit picks that many MANY online critics openly expressed. Look at any GoT fan review of the series and you'll find book people talking about how they wished X favourite character was in the show and would have made it better, or how Y storyline was omitted and that ended up omitting some important backstory for certain characters.

    At the end of the day, the TV series existed as the TV series, and was not built on prior knowledge of the books. That's how WoT TV should be regarded as well. Not by what it needs to aim to be, but what it is creating for itself. It's pointless to criticize an adaptation for not being the source, because ultimately we already know it's not the source.

    Nobody is saying not like the books = bad
    Whether you outright say it or not does not change the tone of your argument, which does imply that changing a major world point = bad (you may have reworded as 'risk it being bad', but really you're using the same argument)

    I mean it's like one of the people said a few posts earlier about 'I have no problem with eye changes' then goes on talking about how they have a problem with the eye changes. That's the basic tone I'm getting here, where you can say that you have no problem with changes, but that's not really how you're regarding the changes themselves here because every point you make is about how it potentially forsakes future plot/world points in the book. That's pretty much having a problem with change.


    Again, this isn't Jordan's Wheel of Time universe. Just as the GoT TV series is not the universe that GRRM envisioned it to be. We have to be clear about what we're talking about. It's fine if the changes have turned you off the series entirely. Your reasons are based on judging that it forsakes the core philosophy of the books. And that's fine reasoning. But let's be clear that the TV series has not fully established any of those things you're criticizing, and the lack of clarity is what is putting you off rather than something the show has actually explained that has not fully made sense. As I said, all the arguments you've said are based on how the Book series works. The TV series has not established those same rules. Whether it has ramifications down the line will only be shown when we get there, not any time before that.

    We can say it risks being bad, but we should also be clear that you're saying you're not interested in the series because it's risking being bad, rather than it actually being bad. And that's really all I'm trying to put into perspective here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The prophecies don't mention it because it is such a core thing of the male half of the power. It is tainted. It is what caused the world to break the first time. You highlight perfectly why changing it so Saidin is no longer the threat changes the entire fear of the Dragon. It matters if the person is sane or not. Because what elevates the fear of the Dragon Reborn to a different level is that insanity.

    It is a person they are supposed to trust and work with to do things yet at the same time will be driven insane by the taint of the Dark One. A soul from the age of legends that will be reborn. Madness and all.
    Not a book reader, but doesn't that whole prophecy get bonked anyways since the Dragon Reborn was a male that ended up not being mad?

  18. #838
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Not a book reader, but doesn't that whole prophecy get bonked anyways since the Dragon Reborn ended up not being mad?
    Yet. He does have battles with madness in the books until he eventually cleanses the taint. It is never out right stated if the voices and stuff he hears is insanity or actually the Dragon. But at one point after Nynaeve learns she can heal the madness in male users she finds that Rand's brain is fully encased in madness but also has a glowing web of light as well. So something was protecting him but very few would have known that and it is a late in the story revelation anyways.

    There is still the 3,000 years of "Fear of Saidin and the Dragon the most powerful user of Saidin ever" that is changed by removing that fear. It would change the core of how views, actions, etc all played out over time to not fear the Dragon as much since it is a chance they are just the same as a Aes Sedai. The 3 oaths didn't always bind them so the world had a taste of potential women Dragons for at least 1,000 years from any women chaneller.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-11-28 at 10:27 PM.
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  19. #839
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    The prophecies hardly even mention madness...aside from saying that the Dragon will "heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope".
    In the books this becomes very clear.

  20. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle;53492672[B
    ]The prophecies don't mention it[/B] because it is such a core thing of the male half of the power. It is tainted. It is what caused the world to break the first time. You highlight perfectly why changing it so Saidin is no longer the threat changes the entire fear of the Dragon. It matters if the person is sane or not. Because what elevates the fear of the Dragon Reborn to a different level is that insanity.

    It is a person they are supposed to trust and work with to do things yet at the same time will be driven insane by the taint of the Dark One. A soul from the age of legends that will be reborn. Madness and all.
    There you go. The prophecies don't mention it. You're adding extra context into it yourself, because of what you know from reading the series.

    Now, if you were just an average person that didn't know anything about the book series...and all you heard was "The Dragon will break the world"...would it matter to you what gender the Dragon was? I mean False Dragons are scary as fuck...because they are nutcases with incomprehensible power that believe that they are the savior of mankind. But, in this version, regardless of gender, the Dragon Reborn breaks the world...and that's at least as scary. Once again, the sanity and motivations of the person that breaks the world are less important than the fact that they actually break the world.

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