Poll: Do you think Alleria, Vereesa and elves like Valeera are traitors to Quel'Thalas?

Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.

Page 12 of 14 FirstFirst ...
2
10
11
12
13
14
LastLast
  1. #221
    traitor is one of the most meaningless subjective terms conceivable, thrown around without concrete basis - same like terms honor and justice.
    even in the most black/white examples the one doing the "traitoring" is often doing it because he first felt betrayed by that whoever/whatever.
    illidan, arthas, kaelthas etc...

    To betray blood elves first you have to be a blood elf, something alleria and vereesa never were.
    High Elves are a people and a culture, not a place/city.
    Alleria and vereesa still belong to the High Elven people, as rare as they are.

    The elves in QThalas decided to officially abandon their High Elven identity and grow into the Blood Elven identity.
    If anything Alleria and vereesa might consider all Blood Elves the traitors since they chose to side with pretty much every race that fought against High Elves in warcraft 1/2/3.

    Dunno about valera, not familiar with her outside of hots.
    Last edited by Aleksej89; 2021-11-29 at 01:58 AM.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    traitor is one of the most meaningless subjective terms conceivable, thrown around without concrete basis - same like terms honor and justice.
    even in the most black/white examples the one doing the "traitoring" is often doing it because he first felt betrayed by that whoever/whatever.
    illidan, arthas, kaelthas etc...

    To betray blood elves first you have to be a blood elf, something alleria and vereesa never were.
    High Elves are a people and a culture, not a place/city.
    Alleria and vereesa still belong to the High Elven people, as rare as they are.

    The elves in QThalas decided to officially abandon their High Elven identity and grow into the Blood Elven identity.
    If anything Alleria and vereesa might consider all Blood Elves the traitors since they chose to side with pretty much every race that fought against High Elves in warcraft 1/2/3.

    Dunno about valera, not familiar with her outside of hots.
    In essence treason is the breach of trust, breaking oaths and all that. They both took up arms against Quel'thalas, which makes that quite straightforward. Their disagreeing with a new name or whatever has literally no baring at what they did.


    As far as Valeera goes she is a Vanilla era slave-gladiator, who fought alongside the warrior part of Varian and remained friendly with him after that. Best description would probably be to call her a spy or double agent after that, but has literally no relevant position within the Horde, only cares only about Varian/Anduin and hasn't really done anything damning outside delivering letters between Anduin and Baine.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    In essence treason is the breach of trust, breaking oaths and all that. They both took up arms against Quel'thalas, which makes that quite straightforward. Their disagreeing with a new name or whatever has literally no baring at what they did.
    No trust was breached.

    They took up arms ONLY, AND EXCLUSIVELY, AFTER THEY WERE EXILED FROM QUEL'THALAS.

    The act of exile in itself meant that Quel'Thalas no longer had trust in them. So nothing was betrayed, for there was no trust in the first place to betray. The Pro-Horde Thalassian government gave up any defence they could have had when they exiled them.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No trust was breached.

    They took up arms ONLY, AND EXCLUSIVELY, AFTER THEY WERE EXILED FROM QUEL'THALAS.

    The act of exile in itself meant that Quel'Thalas no longer had trust in them. So nothing was betrayed, for there was no trust in the first place to betray. The Pro-Horde Thalassian government gave up any defence they could have had when they exiled them.
    Not talking about Ren'dorei here. (They have literally no ground to stand on, because they were told to leave after refusing to stop public endangerment and then doubled down by siding with the enemy after nearly killing themselves)


    Aleria herself had an interesting situation upon coming back to Azeroth, which had a great deal of awesome storytelling potential and a lot of baggage to unpack, because of the many things that have changed, in her absence and what was once pretty straightforward has become anything but. At least i think that exploring the complexities of that situation would have been a great deal more interesting than anything Void related Blizzard could possibly come up with. Giving her an obligatory Windrunner goon squad is a bit meh, but kind of ruins where her story could go by giving her a hardline militant stance against her own people. As is we have a situation, where she is exiled for nearly messing up the Sunwell inadvertenly and not much else besides the plot needing it to happen, in order to give us Void Elves. Which then saw both her and Velves go from 0 to a 100 on the hostility meter, in no time flat.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Not talking about Ren'dorei here. (They have literally no ground to stand on, because they were told to leave after refusing to stop public endangerment and then doubled down by siding with the enemy after nearly killing themselves)
    No they were not "told to leave", they were exiled, you can't be mad when someone you exiled comes back in arms against you. Is Daenerys Targaryen wrong for seeking vengeance against the kingdom that exiled her and her remaining family?

    Also when the Ren'dorei joined the Alliance the Fourth War wasn't started yet, and thus the two factions were not at war.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No they were not "told to leave", they were exiled, you can't be mad when someone you exiled comes back in arms against you. Is Daenerys Targaryen wrong for seeking vengeance against the kingdom that exiled her and her remaining family?

    Also when the Ren'dorei joined the Alliance the Fourth War wasn't started yet, and thus the two factions were not at war.
    An entirely different situation. The Targaryens were ursurped during a civil war, which saw them hunted and on the verge of homelessness their whole thing was reclaiming what they felt was owed to them. Her "vengeance" was a gut reaction based in a vast mental deterioration, which the show glossed over in like half an episode.

    The Void Elves were told to drop their research, because it's too dangerous for everyone around them. (Should have been put into prison for safety of everyone involved tbh, but w/e) After the frankly lenient punishment of removing them from the city they found Dak'khan's notes and finally understood the connotations of their research, but still were convinced they could benefit Quel'thalas. Then they nearly worse than killed themselves and were strongarmed by Aleria into joining up with the Aliance. (This is the point Blizz dropped the ball) And the next we see them after that point they went from 0 to a 100 on the blue patriot scale, for no discernable reason and were very happy to kill their own people now, for some reason.

    TLDR It's a mess and there is no way they didn't know of the rising tensions between the factions and consistent state of something between skirmishing all the time and total war.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    An entirely different situation. The Targaryens were ursurped during a civil war, which saw them hunted and on the verge of homelessness their whole thing was reclaiming what they felt was owed to them. Her "vengeance" was a gut reaction based in a vast mental deterioration, which the show glossed over in like half an episode.

    The Void Elves were told to drop their research, because it's too dangerous for everyone around them. (Should have been put into prison for safety of everyone involved tbh, but w/e) After the frankly lenient punishment of removing them from the city they found Dak'khan's notes and finally understood the connotations of their research, but still were convinced they could benefit Quel'thalas. Then they nearly worse than killed themselves and were strongarmed by Aleria into joining up with the Aliance. (This is the point Blizz dropped the ball) And the next we see them after that point they went from 0 to a 100 on the blue patriot scale, for no discernable reason and were very happy to kill their own people now, for some reason.

    TLDR It's a mess and there is no way they didn't know of the rising tensions between the factions and consistent state of something between skirmishing all the time and total war.
    No they were not told to "drop their research", another understatement. They were outright "exiled", as stated by Rommath:

    Grand Magister Rommath says: This is why I demanded that Umbric and his radicals be exiled. Anyone who treats with the Void is a danger to the Sunwell!
    They were literally thrown out of their home (exiled) into Scourge-infested wilderness. Since it's shown that the Ghostlands are still haunted by the Scourge, a key plot point of the Three Sisters comic, where the Windrunner Sisters team up to fight the Undead hordes that are still infesting the Ghostlands.

    So to sum up, Rommath EXILED Umbric and his scholars, throwing them into Scourge-infested wilderness.

    At that point, he lost any moral high ground he might have had, and the Ren'dorei had every right to seek retribution.

    Also the Ren'dorei were not blackmailed by Alleria into joining the Alliance. As explained by Magister Umbric, he and his followers joined the Alliance because they genuinely believe in its ideals, not out of convenience (ala Forsaken with the Horde) or because of Alleria. If the Ren'dorei survived the incident without Alleria, they would have joined the Alliance regardless. They always believed in its [Lawful Good] Ideals, and didn't want to share their knowledge with the Horde, which is Evil:

    We do not stand with the Alliance out of convenience. Nor is it a mere gesture of thanks to Alleria.

    Our ordeal has taught us the importance of great powers being in the right hands. We could not allow the Horde to know the things we know, or to use us as a weapon in their schemes.

    We fight for the Alliance because we believe in its values. And one day, I pray we will bring all of Silvermoon back into the fold.
    The Ren'dorei are quite possibly the most selfless, altruistic, and genuine playable race in WoW, since they stand with the Alliance out of genuine loyalty to their ideals, and for no pragmatic reason whatsoever (out of convenience).
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2021-11-29 at 11:21 AM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  8. #228
    ^ most "impartial" person on the mmoc forum btw

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Not talking about Ren'dorei here. (They have literally no ground to stand on, because they were told to leave after refusing to stop public endangerment and then doubled down by siding with the enemy after nearly killing themselves)
    On top of that, the part about them being EXILED FROM QUEL'THALAS is nothing more than a lie. They had been exiled from Silvermoon and its whereabouts. To the Ghostlands. Which very much is still a part of Quel'Thalas. I.e. the Void junkies were told to stay the fuck away from the Sunwell as much as it was possible precisely without outright kicking them out of Quel'Thalas as a whole.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-11-29 at 01:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    The Purge of Dalaran has better a claim to the term genocide than the igniting of that world tree inhabited by not only Night Elves but plenty of Worgen too. Teldrassil itself was the target, as opposed to any specific species living there, with the act of burning being a last ditch improvisation after the plans went awry. The actions that Jaina and Vereesa's Silver Covenant took againt the Sunreavers was not only racially motivated, but disproportional as a response to the actions taken by the lone Blood Elf who would've easily been exposed as not being a Sunreaver if anyone in Dalaran had taken any time at all to investigate the matter. The Blood Elven citizens of Dalaran, whether Sunreaver or not, were rounded up in the streets and exterminated. They were then of course hunted actross Pandaria and the Isle of Thunder. If that doesn't count as a genocide, then neither does torching the military base closest to the Horde's capitol. Intent matters, with Jaina and Vereesa's intent having been to eradicate the Sunreavers they wrongfully labeled traitors, while Sylvanas's intent was allegedly to strike fear into her enemies by slaying Malfurion. When Saurfang screwed that up, with suspiciously ample firepower at the ready, Teldrassil stood as the only target to elicit more or less the same response. Worth noting that the Horde didn't go off hunting either Night Elves or Worgen that fled, but remained focused on seizing Darkshore.
    It is a good portrayal of the insanity and reality of war and such mass killings though.

    Jaina and Vereesa are warped by their grief, because Theramore's population is wiped out (genocide - although technically you should only use the term when it's one race that is nearly wiped out). Otherwise you use the term wiped out, destroyed, eradicated.

    The night elves have had a genocide event twice now. The first and biggest was the first legion invasion, when a global population and empire had it's cities and populations wiped out by an invading first - never mind that only Suramar and Eldre'thalas survived, Azshara meant only the palace (not just Zin'Azshari) but only those in the palace to survive. Yet she was not the architect, the demons would wipe everyone out who did n't join them and contribute in the destruction.

    The sundering didn't destroy the night elves, they were already destroyed, it broke the world and released the elves' magic, but their near extinction event was at the hands of the legion. The stories did not talk about any race being brought to extinction by the sundering. Yes lives would have been lost everywhere, but nothing on the scale of the legion, but then the legion specifically targeted the night elf cities, but at least were stopped before they could destroy everything. They won't have stopped with night elves off course. But they had the delicious magic and were the world power and the only force capable of resisting.

    For Teldrassil, it was a genocide of the Darnassian faction, by far the largest night elf group remaining, in one battle it lost most of it's members.

    The high elves experienced a genocide too at the hands of author, although we have a 10% survival rate. This is much higher than the kaldorei in the first invasion, and higher than the War of Thorns - remember the civilians the horde didn't kill in Ashenvale and Darkshore were evacuated to Teldrassil, which was then burnt killing most of the faction's population. Still is genocide.

    Less certain are we of the Tauren or gnomes. The tauren of the Barrens/Kalimdor were hunted to near extinction by the Centaur the story goes, however it's not really called out as a genocide. Maybe it's because it didn't happen in one battle, or maybe there were still enough tauren around and the story was trying to say they would have been extinct if the orcs didn't step in.

    As for the gnomes, well the s tory makes it sound like very few gnomes survived, but yet it is hard to tell, it doesn't refer to it as a genocide though, the entire race isn't lost or nearly lost, the city is though and the majority of the population is.
    Last edited by Mace; 2021-11-29 at 01:33 PM.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    traitor is one of the most meaningless subjective terms conceivable, thrown around without concrete basis - same like terms honor and justice.
    even in the most black/white examples the one doing the "traitoring" is often doing it because he first felt betrayed by that whoever/whatever.
    illidan, arthas, kaelthas etc...

    To betray blood elves first you have to be a blood elf, something alleria and vereesa never were.
    High Elves are a people and a culture, not a place/city.
    Alleria and vereesa still belong to the High Elven people, as rare as they are.

    The elves in QThalas decided to officially abandon their High Elven identity and grow into the Blood Elven identity.
    If anything Alleria and vereesa might consider all Blood Elves the traitors since they chose to side with pretty much every race that fought against High Elves in warcraft 1/2/3.

    Dunno about valera, not familiar with her outside of hots.
    There's one key word in what you said here that makes your entire narrative collapse on itself. That being "officially". I.e. it was the ruler of Quel'Thalas that renamed High Elves to Blood Elves (which, by the way, wasn't to "abandon their identity" like the nonsense you made up here, but to commemorate their fallen). And since you missed that, in context of treason it's not something immaterial like a name that people owe their allegiance to, it's countries and their rulers. Vereesa, Alleria et al had no say on that matter, because they weren't a part of the ruling body of Thalassian society. They didn't like the name change? Tough shit. It wasn't up to them and their personal likes and dislikes matter nothing here. They sure as hell didn't free them from their obligations to their nation. The same applies to Quel'Thalas' foreign policy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  12. #232
    @Varodoc Gotta love the "They weren't exiled from Quel'Thalas, they were perfectly free to live among the Scourge that wiped out 90% of the population!" dishonesty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    @Varodoc Gotta love the "They weren't exiled from Quel'Thalas, they were perfectly free to live among the Scourge that wiped out 90% of the population!" dishonesty.
    Yep. Nonsense like this is why I hope the Horde gets completely villain-batted, driven into the mud, trashed, and torn apart for the third time.

    Every time I try to feel bad for the Horde fanbase in MoP and BfA, they find news ways to prove me wrong.

    Genuinely hope that, if there's another faction war, it's a rehash of MoP and BfA.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2021-11-29 at 03:11 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No they were not told to "drop their research", another understatement. They were outright "exiled", as stated by Rommath:



    They were literally thrown out of their home (exiled) into Scourge-infested wilderness. Since it's shown that the Ghostlands are still haunted by the Scourge, a key plot point of the Three Sisters comic, where the Windrunner Sisters team up to fight the Undead hordes that are still infesting the Ghostlands.

    So to sum up, Rommath EXILED Umbric and his scholars, throwing them into Scourge-infested wilderness.

    At that point, he lost any moral high ground he might have had, and the Ren'dorei had every right to seek retribution.

    Also the Ren'dorei were not blackmailed by Alleria into joining the Alliance. As explained by Magister Umbric, he and his followers joined the Alliance because they genuinely believe in its ideals, not out of convenience (ala Forsaken with the Horde) or because of Alleria. If the Ren'dorei survived the incident without Alleria, they would have joined the Alliance regardless. They always believed in its [Lawful Good] Ideals, and didn't want to share their knowledge with the Horde, which is Evil:



    The Ren'dorei are quite possibly the most selfless, altruistic, and genuine playable race in WoW, since they stand with the Alliance out of genuine loyalty to their ideals, and for no pragmatic reason whatsoever (out of convenience).
    Ghostlands are a part of Quel'thalas, even if it's by all accounts a frontier region, at this point and has been cleansed from any major Scourge activity during the events of TBC, as a prerequisite to them joining the Horde. With the Forsaken helping to keep things in order, within those parts. While hardly a pleasant place it's nowhere near as bad as the plaguelands.

    Even the quote you brought up specifically suggests the topic is quite contentious between Lor'themar and Rommath, with the latter noting specifically they were a significant danger to the Sunwell by the virtue of their dabblings in the void. Just like Aleria clearly showcased. Not even getting into the Darkhan connotations. Even Umbric himself admits to his overbearing arrogance nearly serving them all up a fate way worse than death, which left them in a situation, where they needed Aleria and she would only help them, if they joined the Aliance, which Umbric latched onto right away. That's pretty much explicitely stated within their introduction questline.

    Practically they've not had enough stories to convince me that they're any good. You yourself have over various threads given some very conflicting accounts and that's largely in part due to the fact that there is a lot to infer, but not a whole lot to work with. Ultimately it's down to Blizzard's artistic integrity to portray them consistently.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Ghostlands are a part of Quel'thalas, even if it's by all accounts a frontier region, at this point and has been cleansed from any major Scourge activity during the events of TBC, as a prerequisite to them joining the Horde. With the Forsaken helping to keep things in order, within those parts. While hardly a pleasant place it's nowhere near as bad as the plaguelands.

    Even the quote you brought up specifically suggests the topic is quite contentious between Lor'themar and Rommath, with the latter noting specifically they were a significant danger to the Sunwell by the virtue of their dabblings in the void. Just like Aleria clearly showcased. Not even getting into the Darkhan connotations. Even Umbric himself admits to his overbearing arrogance nearly serving them all up a fate way worse than death, which left them in a situation, where they needed Aleria and she would only help them, if they joined the Aliance, which Umbric latched onto right away. That's pretty much explicitely stated within their introduction questline.

    Practically they've not had enough stories to convince me that they're any good. You yourself have over various threads given some very conflicting accounts and that's largely in part due to the fact that there is a lot to infer, but not a whole lot to work with. Ultimately it's down to Blizzard's artistic integrity to portray them consistently.
    Nope. The Ghostlands are infested with the Scourge as proven in the Three Sisters comic, to the point that it took the 3 greatest Thalassian Elven rangers in history to fight such a massive horde.

    And this was at the end of Legion, while we don't know when the Ren'dorei were exiled, but it had to be before Legion and after WotLK for certain. Which means that the situation might have been even worse back then. They could have even been exiled while the Ghostlands weren't overrun just with Scourge, but also Amani-Zandalari forces.

    Nothing I say is conflicting for I report Canon. What is conflicting is you trying to give the moral high ground to Rommath and the Sin'dorei when they threw their own kin into Scourge-infested wilderness. That is conflicting and contradictory and doesn't align with basic human morality. You can't claim the high ground while cold-heartedly and ruthlessly exiling your own kin. Conversely, since the Ren'dorei were treated in such a inhumane and despicable way by their country (which would cast them out), they have every right to retaliate.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Nope. The Ghostlands are infested with the Scourge as proven in the Three Sisters comic, to the point that it took the 3 greatest Thalassian Elven rangers in history to fight such a massive horde.

    And this was at the end of Legion, while we don't know when the Ren'dorei were exiled, but it had to be before Legion and after WotLK for certain. Which means that the situation might have been even worse back then. They could have even been exiled while the Ghostlands weren't overrun just with Scourge, but also Amani-Zandalari forces.

    Nothing I say is conflicting for I report Canon. What is conflicting is you trying to give the moral high ground to Rommath and the Sin'dorei when they threw their own kin into Scourge-infested wilderness. That is conflicting and contradictory and doesn't align with basic human morality. You can't claim the high ground while cold-heartedly and ruthlessly exiling your own kin. Conversely, since the Ren'dorei were treated in such a inhumane and despicable way by their country (which would cast them out), they have every right to retaliate.

    Maybe I'm blind, but I literally can not count more than 30 Undead so that "horde" is far from "massive" and they were just lesser undead like Ghouls and Shades so even just a single Windrunner sister would have been more than enough to kill them all, of course.

    Realistically, they were just cleaning some trash together in the Dead Scar, in order to spend some "quality" time together, play their little game and (more importantly) for Alleria and Sylvanas to show each others their new cool Void and Undead powers in order to find out which one was "cooler"

    and just because they defeated a few weak Undead in the Dead Scar, we cannot say for sure Ghostlands are still infested with them as a whole region though (at least until Blizzard updates the zone and Quel'thalas as a whole, of course. But by completing the whole Sin'dorei questing experience in the Ghostlands, we know Dar'khan Drathir and Deatholme have fallen, and the Sin'dorei Magisters have the intention of reclaming/rebuilding the other villages of the Ghostlands as well after Tranquillien).

    And in my opinion the Ren'dorei could have just lived in Tranquillien if they wanted to. Tranquillien was already safe and protected by Sin'dorei and Forsaken guards at the beginning of TBC so surely it was not a problem for the Ren'dorei to live there when they were exiled later. But they disliked the Horde and wanted to keep researching the Void to sate their curiosity about that forbidden power (at their own risk), so even the safety of Tranquillien was not a valid option for Magister Umbric.

    Surely the ones who could truly complain about their own exile and the Sin'dorei morality about it, those are the Quel'dorei who refused to partake in the absorption of magical creatures. Indeed the Quel'dorei were exiled during Vanilla times (or even earlier than that) in the EASTERN PLAGUELANDS. Now that's hardcore I must say. Certainly not hardcore for the Ren'dorei who were exiled after the Sunwell was already restored and the position of the Sin'dorei in the Ghostlands was much more stable, and Tranquillien was already operative and safe since a long time.
    Last edited by Synvanas; 2021-11-30 at 12:51 AM.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Nope. The Ghostlands are infested with the Scourge as proven in the Three Sisters comic, to the point that it took the 3 greatest Thalassian Elven rangers in history to fight such a massive horde.

    And this was at the end of Legion, while we don't know when the Ren'dorei were exiled, but it had to be before Legion and after WotLK for certain. Which means that the situation might have been even worse back then. They could have even been exiled while the Ghostlands weren't overrun just with Scourge, but also Amani-Zandalari forces.

    Nothing I say is conflicting for I report Canon. What is conflicting is you trying to give the moral high ground to Rommath and the Sin'dorei when they threw their own kin into Scourge-infested wilderness. That is conflicting and contradictory and doesn't align with basic human morality. You can't claim the high ground while cold-heartedly and ruthlessly exiling your own kin. Conversely, since the Ren'dorei were treated in such a inhumane and despicable way by their country (which would cast them out), they have every right to retaliate.
    A couple basic ghosts around the Windrunner village/spire, in a scenario where Sylvanas had clearly prepared the area for the meeting is hardly evidence of major scourge presence. Best you could argue here is that it's a persistent pest problem, which has to be consistently dealt with by the local forces. That's been the case since TBC and their exile was clearly much later given that the reason was their endangering of the Sunwell. (And the Zul assisted Amani didn't even get out of Zul'aman, before getting beaten into the dirt by Vol'jin, local forces and Vereesa)

    Your arguments change based on the thread, in one you're tauting how they're incredibly empathic martyrs and in another you tout how they're the only interesting Aliance race, because they thorw goblins into the Void, which makes them morally dubious. Which just makes them sound schizophrenic and likely is not what you're trying to convey(At least i hope).


    You're trying to sell us on some arbitrary cruelty, when the reason of "Messing with void shit endangers our most sacred holy site, which our civilisation and all our people depend on for daily life" is made abundantly clear. They literally can't be allowed back into Silvermoon, because it would put the entire civilisation at risk.

  18. #238
    Herald of the Titans Rendark's Avatar
    7+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,819
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No they were not "told to leave", they were exiled, you can't be mad when someone you exiled comes back in arms against you. Is Daenerys Targaryen wrong for seeking vengeance against the kingdom that exiled her and her remaining family?
    Sure you can be mad and yes she is wrong for seeking vengeance.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    @Varodoc Gotta love the "They weren't exiled from Quel'Thalas, they were perfectly free to live among the Scourge that wiped out 90% of the population!" dishonesty.
    The dishonesty here is yours, because the "Scourge that wiped out 90% of the population" was gone for a decade by this time (as in, Arthas diverted the main force away from Quel'Thalas immediately after that campaign) and what remained was a Scourge force small enough that a single Forsaken regiment at Tranquillien kept it in check already at the end of TBC. I guess the day when you jumping into a conversation just to try and score some gotcha is not going to immediately backfire in your face is yet to come.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2021-11-30 at 12:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Some people believe Alleria Windrunner is a traitor to her people - to her homeland and her former order, the Farstriders, by siding with the Alliance over her own sister, her old friends Lor'themar and Halduron, and the majority of Silvermoon's people.

    I was just wondering, as some blood elf NPCs seem to view the high elves negatively, with Rommath mistrusting Alleria when she returns, and Lor'themar calling for "those traitors" to be eliminated, when he saw Alleria and her void elves at Lordaeron. Do most blood elves view them that way? Do they really hate Alleria and Vereesa? And about Valeera Sanguinar, Anduin's personal spy - ostensibly "independent" though she assisted the Alliance multiple times at Theramore, the Undercity, Durotar, etc.? Would most Alliance players be happy, if for example, an independent human male began fighting for the Horde, or if a large plurality of night elves and dwarves, for example, abandoned their people for the other side? Especially during a global all-out war between two superpowers, a situation where they might help lead an attack against Quel'Thalas eventually?

    I mean, in real life...would they not at least be "defectors" - like those who switched sides during the Cold War? But still regarded as legitimate traitors to their birthplaces and their peoples?

    What do you think about these characters? Are they "traitors" to Quel'Thalas, and the blood elves? How does the average blood elf regard Alleria and Vereesa, and their followers - do they have any positive feelings lingering for them, or are they basically enemies? I am really interested for example, how exactly elves like Halduron and Liadrin regard Alleria, as she was once their famous hero in the Second War; the Farstriders even risked everything to try to rescue her from Niskara. Or elves like Valeera who fight for the Alliance, in practice, even if she does not technically consider herself part of their ranks?
    Nope, none of them are traitorts.

    Valleera is basically just a civilian and is not affiliated with the "government" of Quel Thalas. She is just a blood elf who does her own thing.
    Alleria and Vareesa were already members of the Alliance and were far away from the blood elfs and had nothing to do with them when they switched sides.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •