To all the Bellulars, Asmogolds, Preaches, QoL'ers and Fans that want to Design WOW.

[Rageonit]

Like three posts ago you were spewing toxic bullshit about how other people need to know their place. Spare me.

Do you want an invite to a guild that will treat you better than your friends do? And I'm being 100% honest.
Yes, there are players in WoW who try to play on a level they are simply not ready for and that easily get frustrated when they do it in PUGs and get called out or just straight out kicked. Is that news to you? The whole point of my post was that they should find F&F guilds for a much better experience and you call me out for being toxic - while trying to play with "friends" who make it miserable for you? Get a grip.

[Bigbazz]

I highly doubt this, they don't think in in terms of the variety of player base, just how they play and what they want. If Asmondood had is way LFR would be gone which would remove raid access to the majority of the player base. Yeah that's positive....

This is an ancient post you've conjured up, but I've no idea why you think they would do that? I think you haven't really spent much time listening to those guys speak about the game if that's what you think would happen. Many of the positive changes that eventually did come to WoW were being talked about by those guys months or years before they came to fruition while Blizzard were doubling down on their mistakes in the meantime.

I don't at all think that either Asmon or Preach would make or suggest changes to the game that only served them. And I get the feeling you think Asmon is some hardcore raider type, when he's the king of casuals. Either way, I haven't played WoW retail since the first patch of Shadowlands and I just don't care about the game anymore.

[Tyris Flare]

When you go to a higher key all you are doing is negating the increase in power you got from the lower keys.

I activity is not fun for me in the first place, and it is certainly not fun enough to run until I am pounding 15 keys.

But again, you never have to do anything beyond 15s, and there's a big sense of progression until then. So it isn't really "infinite scaling" unless you want it to be. This is just weird to me, like saying that doing the heroic raid makes the gear you got in normal feel worthless.

Put another way: if you are okay with scaling difficulty to a point, how would this problem ever be avoided? You start at point A and have to get to point B, so along the way you are "negating the power increase you got along the way."

This sounds more like you want horizontal progression like Guild Wars.

[NineSpine]

You can go through each quarter to compare how the expan launches effect in one and then use the income in non expan quarters to gauge sub growth.

For example. In 2018 storm bloods launch put the income up to 8.0 which then Fell continuously every quarter to 6.3 through out 2019 which you wouldn’t see if subs were going up through out the year.

And ya it counts two games every investor report square puts out does so it’s not like it’s a sudden unreliable data point.

But again if we can’t go off there investor reports what are you basing every year having sub growth off of?

We can go off steam player numbers and the investor reports that do talk about sub growth.

What we can't go off is revenue for two different games put together that also includes other types of revenue and makes no distinction about where the revenue came from.

[chiddie]

What I like about M+:
I like dungeons
Affixes are cool

What I don't like:
The big reward coming from the vault
Timers
Infinite scaling
Not getting to choose the dungeons because of the key system

The cons are way more important than the pros there.

I feel you man, but things won’t change. We won’t get ilvl 670 by grinding Korthia or do a 74848949448 quests chain or by crafting or doing ANYTHING solo, because the game won’t EVER allow that.

I would kill for rifts “a la Diablo 3” but this won’t happen. People in WoW are more worried about what others can get doing what than about playing for the sake of having fun not caring about what others do to have their fun.

If max level gear would come from M2, most people would never have the +5 achievement, because they don’t do them for the fun but ONLY for the reward behind the activity.

[NineSpine]

But again, you never have to do anything beyond 15s, and there's a big sense of progression until then. This is just weird to me, like saying that doing the heroic raid makes the gear you got in normal feel worthless.

As I said, why would I do something I don't enjoy for weeks and weeks and weeks to get to 15s so that I can feel like I'm progressing? And then I'm at a point where I'm just playing with toxic douchebags to meet my quotas?

When you have very few levels of difficulty, the breakpoints can still feel good. When it is too granular, like it is in M+, that feeling of progression is mitigated.

[Osmeric]

I'd argue the game is already catering a lot towards casual players. Go check vault item level rewards for doing a 2+ - which is not a tough task to complete. The biggest problem of casual players is, in my experience, being unable to find the right place to be - not getting upgrades.

You may think that casual players should be ok with the current game design, but that's not your call to make. Those players have an inalienable right to decide what makes them happy -- and clearly the current design is not doing so for many of them. That situation may vex you, but... shrug?

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Sorry to say this, but judging from that above the game is not your problem. Your friends are.

Lol. "The product is fine, it's the customers who are defective." This works magnificently when the shit hits the fan at Blizzard, I'm sure.

[Rageonit]

You may think that casual players should be ok with the current game design, but that's not your call to make. Those players have an inalienable right to decide what makes them happy -- and clearly the current design is not doing so for many of them. That situation may vex you, but... shrug?

Why would it vex me? Like I've said before, I even have my kids playing the game, super casually, and having fun. Sure, there are casuals and there are casuals, and some won't be happy; I guess casuals enjoy different things too? But to think that it would vex me is... odd.

[Tyris Flare]

As I said, why would I do something I don't enjoy for weeks and weeks and weeks to get to 15s so that I can feel like I'm progressing? And then I'm at a point where I'm just playing with toxic douchebags to meet my quotas?

When you have very few levels of difficulty, the breakpoints can still feel good. When it is too granular, like it is in M+, that feeling of progression is mitigated.

I guess I just don't see the logic or understand any of what you are saying unless you dislike the idea of getting gear at all. M+ has pretty clear breakpoints and granularity with affixes at 2/7/10, and you never need to go past 15s. And I still don't understand how having infinite difficulty is bad for casuals when it is not in any way required to actually get the best gear. You can time current 15s with like 30 deaths right now. I timed a 20 not long ago with like 15 deaths.

the biggest problem for casuals with m+ to me is that if you don't have friends and you start late, it is very difficult to get into pugs as dps. And that is a really difficult nut to crack.

[Rageonit]

Lol. "The product is fine, it's the customers who are defective." This works magnificently when the shit hits the fan at Blizzard, I'm sure.

Yeah, lets turn that around. "Your friends are fine, it's the game that makes them into a-holes". Some friends they are!

[tekaqua]

This is an ancient post you've conjured up, but I've no idea why you think they would do that? I think you haven't really spent much time listening to those guys speak about the game if that's what you think would happen. Many of the positive changes that eventually did come to WoW were being talked about by those guys months or years before they came to fruition while Blizzard were doubling down on their mistakes in the meantime.

I don't at all think that either Asmon or Preach would make or suggest changes to the game that only served them. And I get the feeling you think Asmon is some hardcore raider type, when he's the king of casuals. Either way, I haven't played WoW retail since the first patch of Shadowlands and I just don't care about the game anymore.

I mean you can just google it, its there, no conjuring required. TBH I don't really listen to either one. I have tried watching several videos by both and always turn them off. They fanboy whatever gets them views that's the name of their game. They aren't experts more than the next average Joe, beyond me why people even watch them.

[NineSpine]

Do you want an invite to a guild that will treat you better than your friends do? And I'm being 100% honest.
Yes, there are players in WoW who try to play on a level they are simply not ready for and that easily get frustrated when they do it in PUGs and get called out or just straight out kicked. Is that news to you? The whole point of my post was that they should find F&F guilds for a much better experience and you call me out for being toxic - while trying to play with "friends" who make it miserable for you? Get a grip.

No thanks. I want to play with my friends and have a good time with theme dn that's what we are doing in FF14 where the game lets us play together and gives us fun things to do. I'm not talking about my friends that like M+ and act like dicks. We just don't play with them.

These aren't conversations we have to have. We aren't trying to figure out what guild to join to do things. We aren't trying to figure out how to game the system into progression. We aren't trying to find the right people to carry us. This is what you aren't getting. I want to log on, have my friends log on, and be able to just play the damn game, not do seven levels of "Ok whose item level is ok for this" and then try to coordinate how to get carried. It's absurd.

We don't want to play on that level. We don't like it. It isn't fun. At least in FF14 we can just insta-queue right into difficult content and try it. There isn't all this setup and speed run garbage and peoples' keys getting wrecked. We can just have fun bouncing off hard content (ANY HARD CONTENT WE WANT, not some preassigned key) for a bit and then move on.

[Osmeric]

Why would it vex me? Like I've said before, I even have my kids playing the game, super casually, and having fun. Sure, there are casuals and there are casuals, and some won't be happy; I guess casuals enjoy different things too? But to think that it would vex me is... odd.

I'm guessing it vexes you because you're trying to rationalize it away. The situation facing you is that such a large number of casuals having ditched the game that the dev team is faced with a choice of either fundamentally altering the game to try to get them back, or watch the game continue to wither.

[NineSpine]

Yeah, lets turn that around. "Your friends are fine, it's the game that makes them into a-holes". Some friends they are!

Behavior follows design, not the other way around. The exact same people don't act that way in difficult content in FF14.

[Osmeric]

Yeah, lets turn that around. "Your friends are fine, it's the game that makes them into a-holes". Some friends they are!

When my friends invite me to play a different game instead of this one we're not enjoying, they're still my friends.

[Rageonit]

No thanks. I want to play with my friends and have a good time with theme dn that's what we are doing in FF14 where the game lets us play together and gives us fun things to do. I'm not talking about my friends that like M+ and act like dicks. We just don't play with them.

These aren't conversations we have to have. We aren't trying to figure out what guild to join to do things. We aren't trying to figure out how to game the system into progression. We aren't trying to find the right people to carry us. This is what you aren't getting. I want to log on, have my friends log on, and be able to just play the damn game, not do seven levels of "Ok whose item level is ok for this" and then try to coordinate how to get carried. It's absurd.

We don't want to play on that level. We don't like it. It isn't fun. At least in FF14 we can just insta-queue right into difficult content and try it. There isn't all this setup and speed run garbage and peoples' keys getting wrecked. We can just have fun bouncing off hard content (ANY HARD CONTENT WE WANT, not some preassigned key) for a bit and then move on.

And that's brilliant, man! Kudos to you and your friends for fidning a game you actually enjoy, and I wish you all the best! Here's an advice on how to make your day even better: don't spend so much time fighting over a game you don't enjoy anymore.

[NineSpine]

I guess I just don't see the logic or understand any of what you are saying unless you dislike the idea of getting gear at all. M+ has pretty clear breakpoints and granularity with affixes at 2/7/10, and you never need to go past 15s. And I still don't understand how having infinite difficulty is bad for casuals when it is not in any way required to actually get the best gear. You can time current 15s with like 30 deaths right now. I timed a 20 not long ago with like 15 deaths.

the biggest problem for casuals with m+ to me is that if you don't have friends and you start late, it is very difficult to get into pugs as dps. And that is a really difficult nut to crack.

I like getting gear, and then queueing up into the same content and feeling more powerful. I don't like getting gear and then queueing up into a slightly more difficult version of the content, undoing the progress I just made.

M+ is not casual content. We don't want timers and ruined keys and being put in a position of feeling like our weakest friends are ruining the game for us. it makes the game a boring, frustrating chore. We don't want to have to carry lower ilvl friends through 50 M+ dungeons to catch up to us. This isn't fun for us.

M+ is FOR YOU so of course you like it, but take a step back and try to empathize for a second rather than cram us into the same mindset you have.

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And that's brilliant, man! Kudos to you and your friends for fidning a game you actually enjoy, and I wish you all the best! Here's an advice on how to make your day even better: don't spend so much time fighting over a game you don't enjoy anymore.

I'd rather play WoW. I want them to fix it so I can enjoy it again.

[Rageonit]

Behavior follows design, not the other way around. The exact same people don't act that way in difficult content in FF14.

Ah, the old "Opportunity makes a thief" cliche.
Some people don't steal though. Just imagine.

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I'm guessing it vexes you because you're trying to rationalize it away. The situation facing you is that such a large number of casuals having ditched the game that the dev team is faced with a choice of either fundamentally altering the game to try to get them back, or watch the game continue to wither.

Well you're guessing wrong then.

[Tyris Flare]

This really feels like people existing in different realities. My friends and I log in on Tues and Wed nights for a couple hours to do keys and have no problems running them. If there aren't five of us online (often), we pug a person. There's no weird drama or complications.

I don't know, I think there are a lot of very obvious issues with the game, mostly in terms of unnecessary systems and very lackluster solo content. I think there's also a lot of legit criticism about specifics in dungeon/raid design (which Preach has usually been good at addressing). But so much of the stuff that gets brought up in places like this seems either disingenuous or like people are describing an alternate reality.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

We can go off steam player numbers and the investor reports that do talk about sub growth.

What we can't go off is revenue for two different games put together that also includes other types of revenue and makes no distinction about where the revenue came from.

Ok so steam charts, going with September because it’s Q3 which the other reports I grabbed were from.

September 2017 6,743.0

September 2018 5,808.8

https://steamcharts.com/app/39210#All

And reports that mention subs, going with annual in this case.

2019.

Net sales at the MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online game) sub-segment fell as no new expansion packs were launched for either “FINAL FANTASY XIV” or “DRAGON QUEST X,

https://www.hd.square-enix.com/eng/i.../ar_2019en.pdf

Theses don’t support growth every year they say the opposite.