[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Flurryfang]

You say that, but I have some friends who watch the show without having read the books, and the thing they're talking about the most is exactly this mystery. One episode they think it's Perrin, the next they think it's Egwene, then Mat, now Nyneave.

Which is why the show keeps that card up its sleeve while showing various characters having special characteristics. It creates conversation and buzz but doesn't actually derail the overall direction that the story in the books takes, everyone's clearly still on the same course.

Honestly I think it's a pretty valid way to keep people interested while you're building up the characters and the world. Sooner or later they have to drop the mystery and make it clear who the dragon is (and I'm 99.99% sure it's the same as in the books) but by that time you'll have people invested in other parts of the story and characters.

I haven't really thought about that. That is actually a good point, it does create a thing to talk about and while its "value" might get lost at the end, it does gain some interest in the start.

It will be a good way to do it, IF it does not take away from the creating of goals from the other characters. If Egwene, Nyneave and Mat still has to be potential dragons to the very end, i do think it will leave them with very little when the season is over. It will take a lot then to restart the importance of these characters, since Rand will then take most of the focus.

Thanks for pointing it out though. I have planned to watch binge this with my girlfriend and i think she will enjoy the mystery more now that you have pointed it out to me

[Shadowferal]

I don't really get the entire "who is the dragon reborn" mystery, because... its not a really interesting mystery.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's just prep for changing the Dragon. Rafe said he wasn't sticking to the books and that this was a another turning of the wheel and you have 4-5 potential Dragons. Sure he said if you read the books then you know who the dragon is...in the books. "Subverting expectations?"

[Triceron]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's just prep for changing the Dragon. Rafe said he wasn't sticking to the books and that this was a another turning of the wheel and you have 4-5 potential Dragons. Sure he said if you read the books then you know who the dragon is...in the books. "Subverting expectations?"

To be honest, worry about that when we get there is how I see it.

No need to anticipate the milk being spoiled when we're literally months away from its expiration date. We can discuss that if and when it actually happens.

The show could make Moraine the Dark One for all that matters, but I don't think we should be humoring these kind of discussions (yet) just cuz the show happens to stray from the books. Even with the prophecy being changed, the show hasn't really altered course plot-wise.

[Flurryfang]

I wouldn't be surprised if it's just prep for changing the Dragon. Rafe said he wasn't sticking to the books and that this was a another turning of the wheel and you have 4-5 potential Dragons. Sure he said if you read the books then you know who the dragon is...in the books. "Subverting expectations?"

Again, while i actually begin to like the idea of having a story with a different dragon, it would also make it a completly different story. Nearly half of all story plots in the story is connected to either Rands linage or him being him. If, lets say Egwene, becomes the dragon, the show can't follow the same story beats as books, cause then there is no reason to go to the Aiel Wastes, no need to have Asmodean as a tutor, there is no new Amylin Seat and so much more.

So yeah, it would be an odd show, but very much also its own unique thing.

[kendro1200]

Again, while i actually begin to like the idea of having a story with a different dragon, it would also make it a completly different story. Nearly half of all story plots in the story is connected to either Rands linage or him being him. If, lets say Egwene, becomes the dragon, the show can't follow the same story beats as books, cause then there is no reason to go to the Aiel Wastes, no need to have Asmodean as a tutor, there is no new Amylin Seat and so much more.

So yeah, it would be an odd show, but very much also its own unique thing.

While a lot of people whine about RJ and BS being too verbose and stretching out their stories, the fact of the matter is that WoT character arcs are heavily interwoven, more so than in other books. The moment you start changing other characters it impacts not only those characters, but all of the main characters and many of the side characters in all of the remaining narrative material. How much has been changed drastically changes the rest of the plot for the story. In comparison, you could change some characters in ASoIaF, and those changes wouldn't directly impact the main cast of characters. The same is not true for WoT.
It's why I've said, ever since this thing has been released is that it's WoT in name only. It would take a massive amount of work, that Rafe has shown he's not willing to do, to try and recover the plot at this point. Rafe wanted to write a WoT fanfiction, but knew that it couldn't stand on its own. He's taken the WoT brand, and usurped it for his own purposes, and is butchering it in the process.

[oplawlz]

As long as source material is being respected is frankly shitty code lol.

Not sure what you mean by this, but by source material being respected I'm just talking about things that matter being stuck to. Like the aiel all looking similar to Rand - that's really a key element of the story and factors in to many formative scenes down the line.

[Themius]

Not sure what you mean by this, but by source material being respected I'm just talking about things that matter being stuck to. Like the aiel all looking similar to Rand - that's really a key element of the story and factors in to many formative scenes down the line.

It’s not key.

The red hair and light eyes are key frankly and we see the first aiel with that red hair

[Xath]

You can imagine him that way... RJ's notes however would say he's using those words to describe black people. The actual description "he is as gnarled and dark as an old root"

As long as source material is being respected is frankly shitty code lol. RJ also didn't really like depictions of his characters btw.

You realize RJ literally had cast lists of who he was seeing in his head right? He also had significant input on the graphic novels. Both you and rafe are desperate to twist the world into something it's not. It doesn't really work to go holy crap these people look so different from us when the entire world is a melting pot. What RJ did was create specific areas in terms of race and then he largely put cultures that didn't mesh with those races together. Andor outside the royal family is likely similar to Britain. The Aiel to the Irish and so on. Go actually look at the graphic novels for both New Spring and Eye of the World because RJ had a ton of input into character designs for those. Less so for Eye since it was being prototyped when his health was failing and didn't come out til after he died but he was significantly involved in New Spring

[Corvus]

RJs casting choices could never happen because he was taking actors from different times, but it serves as a very useful view point of how he saw them in his head.





And reading the description given for the 8th ep - Season finale. For twenty years, Moiraine has dreamed and worked towards this moment. But she can't stop the Dragon Reborn from seeing the appeal of the Dark.

Say what? The appeal of the Dark? Where did that come from? Not the books certainly.

[Themius]

You realize RJ literally had cast lists of who he was seeing in his head right? He also had significant input on the graphic novels. Both you and rafe are desperate to twist the world into something it's not. It doesn't really work to go holy crap these people look so different from us when the entire world is a melting pot. What RJ did was create specific areas in terms of race and then he largely put cultures that didn't mesh with those races together. Andor outside the royal family is likely similar to Britain. The Aiel to the Irish and so on. Go actually look at the graphic novels for both New Spring and Eye of the World because RJ had a ton of input into character designs for those. Less so for Eye since it was being prototyped when his health was failing and didn't come out til after he died but he was significantly involved in New Spring

Mate what I mentioned is literally in his notes so now I am changing RJ fucking notes‽

- - - Updated - - -

RJs casting choices could never happen because he was taking actors from different times, but it serves as a very useful view point of how he saw them in his head.





And reading the description given for the 8th ep - Season finale. For twenty years, Moiraine has dreamed and worked towards this moment. But she can't stop the Dragon Reborn from seeing the appeal of the Dark.

Say what? The appeal of the Dark? Where did that come from? Not the books certainly.

Note that tuon casting wouldn’t work with his book description so even RJ would have broken his casting lol. I wonder if there would had been pitchforks for casting a brown instead of “black Porcelain “ woman.

And Perrin has curly hair. That dude has straight hair.

[Biomega]

And Perrin has curly hair. That dude has straight hair.

*looks at Sir Patrick Stewart*

Yeah I think hair is something we can fix.

[oplawlz]

It’s not key.

The red hair and light eyes are key frankly and we see the first aiel with that red hair

It absolutely is key, rand being mistaken for aiel (and his reactions to such assumptions) is hugely formative in most of his non-hometown relationships. The entire dynamic between him and Masema makes no sense otherwise, for instance.

[Kharadin]

Point being, it's not one town. There's 4 different settlements and several independent farms. It's not nearly as tiny as you were seemingly making it out to be.

- - - Updated - - -



As would I. I couldn't fathom it either. But the changes they've made to the prophecies to allow it to be a man or woman don't make ANY sense to me unless they're going to do something like that. There's no reason to change the prophecies to allow it to be both of those genders if they never had any intention of making it a woman.

I mean it makes perfect sense, doesn't it? They're just adding some extra spice to the book one mystery of "who's that poke- I mean dragon?". All they're doing is saying lol jk the Prophecies don't specify a male which isn't all that much a stretch, there's a female counterpart to the dragon to fulfill his role in some turnings anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

snip

Yeah, I like it when people bring up that "cast list" of RJ's. Did you notice how some of them diverge from his own descriptions quite strongly? It's almost like he's just inserting some popular Hollywood names for funsies.

[Xath]

I mean it makes perfect sense, doesn't it? They're just adding some extra spice to the book one mystery of "who's that poke- I mean dragon?". All they're doing is saying lol jk the Prophecies don't specify a male which isn't all that much a stretch, there's a female counterpart to the dragon to fulfill his role in some turnings anyway.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah, I like it when people bring up that "cast list" of RJ's. Did you notice how some of them diverge from his own descriptions quite strongly? It's almost like he's just inserting some popular Hollywood names for funsies.

Yes he's inserting popular Hollywood names into the cast lists from his notes that he didn't make public. Hair and Eye color can be fixed. What you want to look at are facial features largely.

Also yes it's a huge stretch to claim that Gitara's foretelling as Rand was being born didn't say he while screaming he burns like the sun.

[Kharadin]

Yes he's inserting popular Hollywood names into the cast lists from his notes that he didn't make public. Hair and Eye color can be fixed. What you want to look at are facial features largely.

Also yes it's a huge stretch to claim that Gitara's foretelling as Rand was being born didn't say he while screaming he burns like the sun.

If it's only hair and eye colour that you think are off then I guess we can agree to disagree.

And it's not a huge stretch to change the "he" to a "they" for the sake of some extra mystery in season one to rope in new fans. If you're gonna bend yourself out of shape to dislike the show then by all means, go nuts, but chilling out a bit and letting yourself enjoy what I presume would be a favourite book series getting translated onto TV might be fun.

[Redwyrm]

I know that I excuse a lot of changes but if they change who the Dragon is in the show I will jump ship. But from the hint they showed in episode 3 (Rand breaking down the door which follows the book sort of) I still think that they are sticking with the original

[Delekii]

Okay try reading my message again, I was saying the sources show a heavy initial engagment, the 85/80, but how long would that hold as they continue to bastardize the story? I guess you really don't care if the quality of things given to you is complete shit. I also said nothing about social progress, I just don't like when some idiotic producer thinks he knows better than a renowned author and butchers the content to get across HIS message (which is not he masses btw, even if every single member of one party agreed, it wouldn't be the majority).

You say everything about social progress, all the time. You explicitly try not to, but it is extremely clear from context. This context is only backed up by your post history and even signiature.

You're free to make the argument that it won't hold the initial ratings and numbers, but not based on anything objective.

[Geckoo]

To be honest, as someone who hasn't read the books, i don't think there has been a mistery about the dragon reborn to begin with. From the four kids, there is one guy that stands out (Rand), it's not a matter of who, it's a matter of when. If there is any mistery is to know what's going on with the other two. But hey, i might be wrong, as i said, i haven't read the books.

[Xath]

You say everything about social progress, all the time. You explicitly try not to, but it is extremely clear from context. This context is only backed up by your post history and even signiature.

You're free to make the argument that it won't hold the initial ratings and numbers, but not based on anything objective.

It's not social progress to fuck with an author's work. If you want to make a fanfic with everything changed then make it yourself and sell it to the network don't attach it to an IP that people actually care about. Hell that's what the author of those terrible shades book did it started out as Twilight fanfic and then they just changed the names.

- - - Updated - - -

If it's only hair and eye colour that you think are off then I guess we can agree to disagree.

And it's not a huge stretch to change the "he" to a "they" for the sake of some extra mystery in season one to rope in new fans. If you're gonna bend yourself out of shape to dislike the show then by all means, go nuts, but chilling out a bit and letting yourself enjoy what I presume would be a favourite book series getting translated onto TV might be fun.

So Gitara said they 15 times or so in the space of 20 seconds and none of the people that Moiraine talked to while tracking down Tam had any idea of the gender of the baby either. Nope even their parents referred to them as they always. The adopted mom never talked about her bouncing baby boy or anything.

[Kharadin]

So Gitara said they 15 times or so in the space of 20 seconds and none of the people that Moiraine talked to while tracking down Tam had any idea of the gender of the baby either. Nope even their parents referred to them as they always. The adopted mom never talked about her bouncing baby boy or anything.

Yeah absolutely, but I'm not arguing that that's not the case in the books so you're totally right. What I'm saying is that it's not too much of a change to say that that's not how this all happened in the story that's on the TV. I don't think it's a big change to say that in terms of Gitara's foretelling and the prophecies (I actually can't remember if the prophecies cite gender, iirc I don't think the old tongue has gendered pronouns but I could be wrong) that the gender of the DR isn't known.

And like, I guess I'd prefer they stayed more true to the source material, but if the concern is hooking in a new, wider audience (and thus increasing the chance of producing more seasons of the show) then I'm happy to roll with this whole exaggerated mystery regarding the DRs identity for the sake of getting a bigger audience into the show.

- - - Updated - - -

To be honest, as someone who hasn't read the books, i don't think there has been a mistery about the dragon reborn to begin with. From the four kids, there is one guy that stands out (Rand), it's not a matter of who, it's a matter of when. If there is any mistery is to know what's going on with the other two. But hey, i might be wrong, as i said, i haven't read the books.

There's actually a decent number of polls done on reddit r.e. who people think the DR is and while the majority have sussed it out, it's typically about 40-45% of people who answer who get it wrong. So for sure it's not a perfect mystery and lots of people will think it's obvious, but I definitely think it provides intrigue for a non-trivial amount of the viewership.