[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Flurryfang]

WoT is a diverse world, but nations tend to not be within the world itself. The Sea Folk for instance, are dark skinned, primarily because they spend their life on the water so it's safe to assume that they'd be akin to Central Americans or darker skinned people from the Middle East. Within the scope of the story, war and economic strife do unseat people from their homelands and eventually you start to see that ethnic homogenization of countries start to shift as a result of events in the world, especially in the Two Rivers where they get people in from Toman Head and Falme after the events involving Rand and the Seanchan in that area.

I think that is kinda the point, that was tried to be made, the difference between current and later. The idea is, that the world have stood still for a number of generations, making the nations quite unified in their race/culture. It is only later in the story, when people and cultures are crossed because of the wars and destruction around the world.

[Mace]

I wasn't talking about wheel of time in my first paragraph. I was talking about Starship troopers. I was replying to a post about starship troopers. I'm aware that wheel of time is a deliberate adaptation of the books. starship troopers was not, that's why its so different from the book.

Do beg your pardon, I butted in

also few pages back, I cannot remember who it was but they made a suggestion that the reason the show is making it sound like any one of the 4 can be a dragon is to create a mystery for the viewers to talk about, to keep them engaged, especially if they haven't read the books. it doesn't mean they will change who the dragon ultimately is, but rather they wanted to give people some watercooler topics to chat about. whether its the actual intent, I don't know but it certainly seems to be working out that way.

I agree with that premise, a bunch of friends and I explored what it meant for the possibility of the dragon reborn could be female... it doesn't change the story much if it ends up being Rand and male, and certainly does create a bit more of an initial mystery.

IT still seems an un-necesary change - but then maybe they felt it needed more mystery, however I think it was abad choice, there is enough mystery in the books, for that, and that change skews our impression and possiby makes the show seem too female orientated like it's a girl series (like HCarmed or Sabrina) - they may not have realised that though.. although to be fair, we haven't seen the whole series so the weighting might balance itself out. So far it's pretty heavy on pro female and some of t he lines have exaggerrated this more not less.

I guess tha'ts not as important tbh, question is whether it feels like it's a show mainly for girls (like Charmed and Sabrina definitely feel like), but certainly which the original book wasn't this is what really matters.

P.S. on homogeneity and diversity of places... it takes a long time of FULL on isolation rather couple of generations with trade still happening and families moving in or out - for genuine homogeneity to happen. moreover, aside from the fact that Jordan was NOT cribbing directly from various countries but rather pulled inspiration from them and combined bits and pieces (as per interviews with him) - have any of you ever been in those supposedly homogenous countries? cause they are not nearly as homogenous as some of you assume.

I concur, the racial diversity of the two rivers in the show is acceptable. I may have imagined the leads as white - but that was more due to box cover art than actual in book description. So I'm not too fussed about it.

in terms of attractiveness though, Egwene isn't as pretty to me. She is supposed to be smoking hot, but I don't find the actress that way. I really hope they cast a stunningly beautiful woman for Lanfear, and male counterpart for the Forsaken male that is meant to be really handsome. I also Aram I'm of t wo minds, the actor is clearly good looking, but is it to the extent the book describes him? I expect Elayne, Gawyn and especially Galad to be stunning though. Galad, Lanfear and that male forsaken need to be imo.

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WoT is a diverse world, but nations tend to not be within the world itself. The Sea Folk for instance, are dark skinned, primarily because they spend their life on the water so it's safe to assume that they'd be akin to Central Americans or darker skinned people from the Middle East. Within the scope of the story, war and economic strife do unseat people from their homelands and eventually you start to see that ethnic homogenization of countries start to shift as a result of events in the world, especially in the Two Rivers where they get people in from Toman Head and Falme after the events involving Rand and the Seanchan in that area.

This is true. When you really look closely into it, probably only the Aiel have a true racial homogeny. Well the Sea Folk and Tear people too. Cairhienin are stated as fair skinned though - the rest it's hard to say. Seanchan royalty is dark skinned I think , but the empire is quite mixed. Without knowing the original ethnicity of Manetheren, it's hard to say what the two rivers should be. But we know their hair and eyes are dark, and Rand is white, however is skin colour is too pale and out of place for the two rivers as Elaida comments when she meets him, suggesting that Perrin and Egwene's skin tones are more than fine, and actually them all being dark haired and dark eyed was spot on.

Now if only they had given the actor who played Lan grey contact lenses so it would match the book , although quite angular, he isn't as angular as some people I've seen out and about.

[Rennadrel]

I think that is kinda the point, that was tried to be made, the difference between current and later. The idea is, that the world have stood still for a number of generations, making the nations quite unified in their race/culture. It is only later in the story, when people and cultures are crossed because of the wars and destruction around the world.

Hence why it makes these "diverse" changes unnecessary, because in good story ultimately the story being told as it was intended is diverse as it is.

[Corvus]

Starship Troopers' adaptation of its novel was so good it became a satire of the themes of the fascist, authoritarian-loving author who wrote the book. It became the exact opposite themes of the novel it was based on.

Heinlein also wrote Stranger in a Strange Land which became an icon of the counterculture movement in the 60s.

But the movie was not an adaption of the novel. It started life as a completely unrelated script before they heard of the rights to the novel. So they just slapped on a few names from the novel and pretty much called it a day. Verhoeven never actually even read it - he went with what he heard it was about.

[Theangryone]

I keep trying to give the show a chance, and admittedly the quality has improved each episode, but the pacing is absolutely atrocious. With only 8 episodes in this season Episode 5 makes some bizarre story choices.

[Corvus]

Cutting out the whole Caemlyn part of the story to concentrate on a funeral that doesn't appear in the books does seem an odd choice, yeah.

[Xath]

it was never meant to be an adaptation of the book. they just happened to have the rights to it, so they renamed a few characters and made aliens - bugs. but if you look into the history of the movie, it was supposed to be its own thing. it sucks as an adaptation because it was never meant to be one.

on casting.




goes into Jordan's notes and everything.

You can't resolve something when the author isn't around to weigh in but has made clear via notes that it is not what his vision would be.

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Do beg your pardon, I butted in


I agree with that premise, a bunch of friends and I explored what it meant for the possibility of the dragon reborn could be female... it doesn't change the story much if it ends up being Rand and male, and certainly does create a bit more of an initial mystery.

IT still seems an un-necesary change - but then maybe they felt it needed more mystery, however I think it was abad choice, there is enough mystery in the books, for that, and that change skews our impression and possiby makes the show seem too female orientated like it's a girl series (like HCarmed or Sabrina) - they may not have realised that though.. although to be fair, we haven't seen the whole series so the weighting might balance itself out. So far it's pretty heavy on pro female and some of t he lines have exaggerrated this more not less.

I guess tha'ts not as important tbh, question is whether it feels like it's a show mainly for girls (like Charmed and Sabrina definitely feel like), but certainly which the original book wasn't this is what really matters.



I concur, the racial diversity of the two rivers in the show is acceptable. I may have imagined the leads as white - but that was more due to box cover art than actual in book description. So I'm not too fussed about it.

in terms of attractiveness though, Egwene isn't as pretty to me. She is supposed to be smoking hot, but I don't find the actress that way. I really hope they cast a stunningly beautiful woman for Lanfear, and male counterpart for the Forsaken male that is meant to be really handsome. I also Aram I'm of t wo minds, the actor is clearly good looking, but is it to the extent the book describes him? I expect Elayne, Gawyn and especially Galad to be stunning though. Galad, Lanfear and that male forsaken need to be imo.

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This is true. When you really look closely into it, probably only the Aiel have a true racial homogeny. Well the Sea Folk and Tear people too. Cairhienin are stated as fair skinned though - the rest it's hard to say. Seanchan royalty is dark skinned I think , but the empire is quite mixed. Without knowing the original ethnicity of Manetheren, it's hard to say what the two rivers should be. But we know their hair and eyes are dark, and Rand is white, however is skin colour is too pale and out of place for the two rivers as Elaida comments when she meets him, suggesting that Perrin and Egwene's skin tones are more than fine, and actually them all being dark haired and dark eyed was spot on.

Now if only they had given the actor who played Lan grey contact lenses so it would match the book , although quite angular, he isn't as angular as some people I've seen out and about.

No she only comments on his skin color after rolling up his sleeve to see untanned skin. IE they all have farmer's tans and Rand is close enough to pass as a two river's man with odd colored hair.

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I wasn't talking about wheel of time in my first paragraph. I was talking about Starship troopers. I was replying to a post about starship troopers. I'm aware that wheel of time is a deliberate adaptation of the books. starship troopers was not, that's why its so different from the book.

also few pages back, I cannot remember who it was but they made a suggestion that the reason the show is making it sound like any one of the 4 can be a dragon is to create a mystery for the viewers to talk about, to keep them engaged, especially if they haven't read the books. it doesn't mean they will change who the dragon ultimately is, but rather they wanted to give people some watercooler topics to chat about. whether its the actual intent, I don't know but it certainly seems to be working out that way.

P.S. on homogeneity and diversity of places... it takes a long time of FULL on isolation rather couple of generations with trade still happening and families moving in or out - for genuine homogeneity to happen. moreover, aside from the fact that Jordan was NOT cribbing directly from various countries but rather pulled inspiration from them and combined bits and pieces (as per interviews with him) - have any of you ever been in those supposedly homogenous countries? cause they are not nearly as homogenous as some of you assume.

You mean like 3000 years after the breaking? We are around 2000 years after the fall of manth and when people are largely not expected to love past 50 generations tend to speed up.

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Disagree on your point of view on it supposed to be it's own thing. It's very much the Wheel of Time, and it's an excellent production, if they didn't change silly things like "the dragon reborn potetnially being female" - so un-necessary, i'd have given it 5 stars - despite the other minor changes.

Sticking closer to the book would have been better, but it was still very good, as annoyed and irritated as i am by the changes they chose to make.

Except for being nowhere near the books lols

[rhorle]

I have to say I always envisioned the Ogier to be different then depicted. Maybe it is the hair. I always saw it more like a bear/animal fur in my minds eye and less weird facial features.

[Smallfruitbat]

also few pages back, I cannot remember who it was but they made a suggestion that the reason the show is making it sound like any one of the 4 can be a dragon is to create a mystery for the viewers to talk about, to keep them engaged, especially if they haven't read the books. it doesn't mean they will change who the dragon ultimately is, but rather they wanted to give people some watercooler topics to chat about. whether its the actual intent, I don't know but it certainly seems to be working out that way.

There is enough mystery already with the 3 Taveren, adding the Eggers and Nynaeve to the mix doesn't really help. Someone summed it up better than me a few pages ago -if they are not going to make one of the girls the DR it's like saying to a woman -you can be CEO if you try really hard, while knowing all along that the job is earmarked for a man. The book readers know that both Egwene and Nynaeve having their own amazing arcs to come, foreshadowing which would be better than 'you could be the Dragon Reborn.' Moiraine originally allows Egwene to join the party because she feels her destiny is tied to them.

The whole series is tied to men and women having their own specialties. They interact differently with their side of the power, men are generally stronger in fire and earth (the masculine elements if you're a pagan) and women generally stronger in air and water. Putting everyone on the same footing has long term implications the cleansing of the taint, healing stilling/gentling, Halima being able to sneak about the rebel camp

Yes, I get that this is supposed to be an adaptation (though I think the word bastardization is more appropriate) and things won't be exactly as I imagined them but they have so far done a poor job of telling the Wheel of Time story. So far we've got a mediocre generic fantasy that has had a lot of money thrown at it.

[Flurryfang]

I have to say I always envisioned the Ogier to be different then depicted. Maybe it is the hair. I always saw it more like a bear/animal fur in my minds eye and less weird facial features.

Well, its not just what you envisioned, its what they are described by. The first time Rand meets Loial, he mistakes him for a trolloc because of his size and his bear-like face. So yeah, don't know why they focused on the weird face, just makes them look like klingons instead.....

[Xath]

Well, its not just what you envisioned, its what they are described by. The first time Rand meets Loial, he mistakes him for a trolloc because of his size and his bear-like face. So yeah, don't know why they focused on the weird face, just makes them look like klingons instead.....

Because this isn't wheel this rafe presents a bastardization of wheel

[Flurryfang]

Episode 5 spoilers!

Okay, so i had a problem in the start of the show, but i was not sure if it would be a long term problem, but now.... with episode 5, its clear that it will continue - Why the hell are the Aes Sedai and their warders so unprofessional? They are supposed to be agents, professional killers and people who are used to live on the edge of life and death. Then why the hell are they so laid back, emotional and so unprepared for death??

I get that losing friends is hard, but Lan should have experienced many deaths in his time, especially that of his warder colleagues. The hard and seasoned warrior attitude of Lan and the agents of Tar Valon is completly gone... I feel like some of what was cool about them, that they took the threat serious and knew that much would be lost in the battle, is completly gone.

And suicide..Aren't the warders suppose to be charging towards the blight or death? Suicide seems like the last thing they would do, when there already is so many ways to die in an honorable way.

[Biomega]

Because this isn't wheel this rafe presents a bastardization of wheel

Remember, this isn't Book WoT, this is Series WoT - different universe!

Which is why it isn't Book Good, it's Series Shit ¬_¬

[Coniferous]

It's strange to have a vested interest in a bedrock element of the series remaining the same? Souls are reborn throughout the age into bodies that match they become bound to the wheel. Rafe has basically said that doesn't exist which is bedrock breaking. The Yin and Yang nature of the one power is also incredibly important.

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Stop putting down LoTR and the Hobbit as though they are the same type of adapt. LoTR especially the extended editions is relatively faithful to the original books the hobbit has massive sideplots added on to pad it into three movies. Even then the Hobbit is so more faithful to it's source material than this show has been so far.

Triceron has been writing the same stuff for the past 20 pages, it's all just some sort of relativism thing and won't address the fact that most people here view the changes to WoT as fundamentally more story shifting than Lotr.

[Surfd]

Ishamael cares about the metaphysics involving the struggle between Light and Dark. He wants to kill the Dragon himself, but unlike Sammael and Demandred who are just salty at Lews Therin (and consequently Rand too), Ishamael wants the great conflict of Light battling the Dark to take place, and he wants to act as the champion of the Dark. .

Yeah. This is actually a hugely important part of almost the entire series, and especially when you get into what motivates Ishmael specifically during the current iteration of the Wheel's Turning. It is heavily implied in the books that Ishmael has actually managed to see "behind the curtain" so to speak (possibly that being trapped in the Dark One's Prison for a couple millennia may have actually caused his thread to become slightly unstuck from the pattern), and has somehow managed to carry knowledge of that glimpse into the void into his current resurrection. His ENTIRE existence at this point is actually dedicated to trying to ensure the Dark One actually DEFINITIVELY wins the final battle and actually BREAKS the Wheel utterly, because Ishmael has become personally tired of being used as the Black King vs the White King in an eternally resetting game of chess in the war between Light and Dark. He basically just wants it to END. To finally be "over" so he can be freed from the Wheel.

[Flurryfang]

Yeah. This is actually a hugely important part of almost the entire series, and especially when you get into what motivates Ishmael specifically during the current iteration of the Wheel's Turning. It is heavily implied in the books that Ishmael has actually managed to see "behind the curtain" so to speak (possibly that being trapped in the Dark One's Prison for a couple millennia may have actually caused his thread to become slightly unstuck from the pattern), and has somehow managed to carry knowledge of that glimpse into the void into his current resurrection. His ENTIRE existence at this point is actually dedicated to trying to ensure the Dark One actually DEFINITIVELY wins the final battle and actually BREAKS the Wheel utterly, because Ishmael has become personally tired of being used as the Black King vs the White King in an eternally resetting game of chess in the war between Light and Dark. He basically just wants it to END. To finally be "over" so he can be freed from the Wheel.

This is what is awesome about his book character, that he plays into the idea of the wheel and the repetition, that he is and will always be to the counter to the Dragon and that he is so tired of it, to never win or lose, stuck in the same pattern.

I don't see that being put into the show though xD It would be very surprising if they used the time to explore that part of the story.

[Surfd]

Within the scope of the story, war and economic strife do unseat people from their homelands and eventually you start to see that ethnic homogenization of countries start to shift as a result of events in the world, especially in the Two Rivers where they get people in from Toman Head and Falme after the events involving Rand and the Seanchan in that area.

While this is true, you also have to remember that the world had been fairly stable for a fairly long time before the book kicks off and literally jumpstarts the second coming of the apocalypse within a matter of months.

Like, remember, the Two Rivers was such a sleepy backwater that it hadn't seen a Tax Collector from the nation that nominally controlled it in several Generations. Most of the people who lived there were barely even aware that they were technically citizens of Andor.

The last major war was the Aiel War, which wasn't really a "war" but was more like a Vendetta Raid as far as the Aiel were concerned: They weren't there to capture territory or displace people. They were literally there to punish someone for a sleight to their honor and then leave.

There hadn't been much in the way of actual country shift for god knows how long. At the very least the last "major" event of that type would probably be the collapse of Artur Hawkwing's empire, which is easily nearly 1000 years before before the books started, and that mostly just results in the "fracturing" of the empire into most of the current countries and city-states, not something that would trigger widespread population migrations or dispersion. Other than that, the only other thing going on that might push people out of their regular territories would maybe be the slow creeping expansion of the Blight around the edges.

So basically, unless I missed something major, its probably been about almost 800 years since there was any large event on the continent that would have driven population shuffling, which leaves most stuff down to just trade and generic travel to spread diversity around. 800 years is a LONG time for areas to "homogenize" if their ain't much in the way of large amounts of immigration / emigration to keep diversity going, especially sleepy, geographically isolated areas like backwater Two Rivers.

[Kharadin]

Well ep 5 was fuckin' sick. Everyone's kicking off except our boy Rand.

[Shadowferal]

Rafe & co. seem to have deliberately dismissed Lan's history. He's been fighting the Shadow for decades. Lord of the Seven Towers, uncrowned king of Malkier, trained at the sword ever since he could hold one. So skilled he even killed two fades at once. Malkieri, alike Shienarans, keep emotions in check when in public. (Husband and wife won't even hold hands)

Reading what went down, it seems they don't care to have the characterizations that made the characters...at all.

[Mazza]

Well ep 5 was fuckin' sick. Everyone's kicking off except our boy Rand.

Odd. I felt this episode was terrible, potentially even the weakest of all of them. The people running this show are making some really daft choices on what they are using their very limited screentime (8 episodes for EotW is damn short) for when it comes to progressing the story. Some might disagree, but the ENTIRE bit of the widowed warder is in there to attempt get some easy feels from the audience but to the story IT IS IRRELEVANT.Things mattering in this episode: Egwene and Perryn with the children of the light and basically everybody making it to Tar Valon, Rhand meeting an Ogier and reuniting with Nynaeve, that's it. Half of this episode is fluff that does not belong in a show that only has a very limited time to tell it's story. As a result, the actual story elements feel rushed as hell. IMO, this is the weakest episode so far.