[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Ragedaug]

And same said above about the core plots of the books not changing with the Dragon being possibly female, in the same vein that you're saying Tauriel doesn't contradict the books (even though it fundamentally does).

At this point you are just being obstinate, so I don't see any further need to discuss this point with you. There are thousands of elves living in Mirkwood in the book, The Hobbit, so naming one in the movie that wasn't named in the books doesn't contradict anything in the plot. You saying them naming a character that they didn't name in the book fundamentally changes the plot, is just an asinine statement.

As far as Wheel of Time goes, you either have no clue how the magic system works, so maybe you should bow out of the conversation because it doesn't affect you, you could just say you haven't read the books, so the change isn't a big deal to you. Or if you do understand how the magic system works, you are just being a troll saying it doesn't matter if the Dragon is male or female.

Either way, respond how you will or not, I don't see anything productive in continuing this conversation with you.

[Triceron]

The problem behind that is partly what I'm getting at, the constant talking past the actual problem.

"Yeah change X is bad"

T: "You don't get it, it's an adaptation, it won't be like the books!"

"Okay but I don't like change X"

T: "That's because they made a change from the books, and you hate all changes."

"I'm just saying, change X doesn't work for me"

T: "Let me clarify what adaptation means, it doesn't mean 'exactly like the books' it has its own universe!"

"X is just a shitty change"

T: "So what you're saying is all changes are universally shitty?!"

There is also the opposite happening, where my context-based arguments are taken out of context and generalized into the above.

If I said a statement like 'people are not regarding that this is an adaptation', I'm specifically regarding the individuals who are not regarding this as an adapation and somehow wish it to be addressed as a non-Wheel of Time series as an example. Perhaps I'm wording things poorly, since in retrospect I see that this could be taken as strawmanning *everyone* who simply has an issue with certain changes; and that's not my intent of response. I was contextualizing my response to a generalization, admittedly poorly.

A more contextually appropriate version of your example is if it actually started with

"Yeah change X is bad. I don't get why they would ever want to change the book"

Cuz honestly, if someone just said change X is bad, I'd just as easily agree and move on. Cuz yeah, I do think certain changes in the series have been bad too. I don't agree they should have changed the gendering of the Dragon Reborn, but I will make an argument on why it exists and why the show runners likely made that change to the books, and why it's still acceptable as being called 'Wheel of Time' despite changes like that.

[Biomega]

"Yeah change X is bad. I don't get why they would ever want to change the book"

Sounds like another misrepresentation and strawman to me. What is more likely happening is:

"Yeah change X is bad. I don't get why they would change that from the book"

Which is a VERY different statement, and answering it with "well adaptation, duh!" is completely missing the actual point.

[Ragedaug]

The problem behind that is partly what I'm getting at, the constant talking past the actual problem.

"Yeah change X is bad"
...snip...
T: "So what you're saying is... "

Completely agree.

[Triceron]

Or if you do understand how the magic system works, you are just being a troll saying it doesn't matter if the Dragon is male or female.

They aren't actually changing the Dragon's gender, or at least are very unlikely to be doing so in the series. We know who is being set up to be the Dragon, and it's not changing.

I didn't say it doesn't matter if the Dragon is male or female, I'm saying the actual PLOT isn't changing. That they are making statements around it to question the situation isn't actually changing the plot, any more than adding Tauriel and implying that Elves and Dwarves can have romantic attractions to each other when no example of this formally exists in the lore. Neither of these are actual changes to the plot. They are alterations to the greater lore.

[Ragedaug]

Sounds like another misrepresentation and strawman to me. What is more likely happening is:

"Yeah change X is bad. I don't get why they would change that from the book"

Which is a VERY different statement, and answering it with "well adaptation, duh!" is completely missing the actual point.

It if funny how Triceron changed your statement so he could have something to argue with.

"You said x, but if you said y, that would be wrong"
- "that's why I said x and not y"
"Yeah, but y is still very wrong".
- "so what?? no one is saying y is not wrong..."

[Triceron]

Sounds like another misrepresentation and strawman to me. What is more likely happening is:

"Yeah change X is bad. I don't get why they would change that from the book"

Which is a VERY different statement, and answering it with "well adaptation, duh!" is completely missing the actual point.

It's not if the context is the adaptation to TV aims to hook an audience that does not read the books, nor really care for the book at all.

The context of it BEING a week-to-week TV series is the point I've always maintained. Now, whether the showrunners are justified in their changes and whether there is actual payoff to it being changed as opposed to keeping it the way it was in the book can be further discussed, though that does also go into a whole bunch of 'what if' territory that assumes a closer translation of the books would be any better as a TV series. It's just as possible that if they go with a more true-to-plot adaptation, that it wouldn't be executed as well in terms of capturing a wider audience, that it could end up being bland and simply overlooked simply due to the great amount of world building, slower paced nature of the first book and the challenges of cramming all that into an 8-hour series.

My response is more than just a 'well adaptation, duh!'. My point is that 'I don't get why they would change that from the book' is responded to with 'the show is cramming the first book into 8 hours, and willingly exploits plot changes to create shortcuts that appeal to a wider audience, mainly to those who don't follow the book at all'.

[Nynax]

What would you call a shitty change then? If you're applying this word to something others are collectively agreeing to as being shitty, then you're addressing it universally. And that's exactly the context of the word as you're using it right now.

Otherwise someone could be saying Thom not looking like Patrick Stewart with Hair was a shitty change, would you say that's properly representing the meaning of 'Shitty change' as you're using it? Context matters, and I don't think you particularly would include that as a 'Shitty change' because shitty is subjective to the individual. There shouldn't be any real way to apply 'Shitty change' collectively, in the way you're choosing to apply the word; as if everyone complaining was in agreement to the same changes being shitty. It's only going to appeal to various demographics of the audience, the majority of which won't give a shit since they likely have never read the books nor cared if they stayed close to them or not.

And as I'm pointing out, even the collective change complaints (ie Gendered Dragon Reborn) are not shitty to everyone, and I'm simply offering perspective. I'm not downplaying that the changes will suck to different people, I'm just pointing out the changes aren't irrational nor are they universally 'shitty'. Even something like changes to Lan's personality and having the Warders made less-than-invincible as they seemingly were in the books is all a means to humanize them and give emotional connections for the audience to raise dramatic stakes when needed. Otherwise a close-to-book interpretation might have them acting more like emotionless robots, and that's not always the best thing to have in a drama series. Perspective. What one might consider shitty because it doesn't stick to the book might be equally shitty if it did stick to the book and completely miss the point of portraying the character through performance.

Tbh...so far you've basically written a book just to defend the definition of "adaptation" as a word. Then said that people are entitled to their opinions...and now saying, in a long winded way, they aren't allowed to have negative opinions? If they think it's shitty, they think it's shitty. End of story. Why are you now arguing that they aren't allowed to think something is shitty because someone else might not? I can rewrite your entire post with the word "great" instead of "shitty" and it's just as meaningless.

"What one might consider great because it doesn't stick to the book might be equally great if it did stick to the book and completely miss the point of portraying the character through performance."

[Mazza]

Can I just say that comparing this to how the Hobbit trilogy was made does not really hold up? WoT has 14 books each averaging around 800 pages or more to distill a series plot from... the Hobbit was a fairly short book, when they announced it was going to be a trilogy my immediate reaction was that they would have to make some new stuff up to actually get enough material.

[Xath]

I love how you comment on the video without watching it. they literally use JORDAN's OWN notes as well as quotes from the books to prove you wrong. but do go on.

two rivers is not as isolated as you keep trying to claim. they have trade coming in and out, they have people outside of two rivers - readily RECOGNIZING PEOPLE FROM IT. etc etc.

meh.

Two Rivers is isolated enough they don't even remember they are part of Andor and EF in particular hasn't seen a tax collector in generations. Two strangers is a massive huge deal so is the peddler that comes once a year. Tam having an outsider wife was a huge deal. The "old blood" is concentrated enough that Egwene and Mat have blood memories it's also why there are so many girls who can channel. I'm not going to watch 45 mins of bs. There is a reason that anytime someone is different from the "norm" they are remarked upon. It's not because the world is a giant melting pot.

[Arikara]

My point is that...

No matter how much you clarify your position or overexplain, you will still be in the wrong. Your point is irrelevant.

A show adaptation needs changes. They are making the wrong changes, and are going about it with the wrong motivation and reasoning. That much is irrefutable, and invites critique. Perhaps not every change is bad, but the core of what they are doing certainly is. It is abundantly clear to anyone that the showrunners do not hold this universe in any measure of high regard or treat it with the respect or love it is due. That is indefensible. Cease pretending otherwise.

[Triceron]

they aren't allowed to have negative opinions?

When did I ever say they weren't allowed to have negative opinions?

- - - Updated - - -

No matter how much you clarify your position or overexplain, you will still be in the wrong. Your point is irrelevant.

A show adaptation needs changes. They are making the wrong changes, and are going about it with the wrong motivation and reasoning. That much is irrefutable, and invites critique. Perhaps not every change is bad, but the core of what they are doing certainly is. It is abundantly clear to anyone that the showrunners do not hold this universe in any measure of high regard or treat it with the respect or love it is due. That is indefensible. Cease pretending otherwise.

And how are we deciding that these are irrefutably wrong changes? All I've pointed out is this show seems to appeal to a wider (different) audience rather than adhere to beiing true to the book, as book fans would want and expect. I'm not telling anyone their opinion is wrong for hating any particular change, just that there's no universal standard for how to consider them as being wrong. It's always gonna be subjective, and it'd be no different if you said pineapple on pizza is wrong and I make a point that either you're saying that subjectively, or make a point that other people may like pineapples on pizza and it's a matter of different appeals.

And yeah, I agree about the showrunners seemingly not caring. I've stated such quite a few times that the changes are there to service the network and the appeal of the show as a weekly fantasy drama to a wider audience, more than tell the original story as it was meant to be. So what exactly do you think I am defending here? What exactly are you accusing me of pretending?

[Witchblade77]

Two Rivers is isolated enough they don't even remember they are part of Andor and EF in particular hasn't seen a tax collector in generations. Two strangers is a massive huge deal so is the peddler that comes once a year. Tam having an outsider wife was a huge deal. The "old blood" is concentrated enough that Egwene and Mat have blood memories it's also why there are so many girls who can channel. I'm not going to watch 45 mins of bs. There is a reason that anytime someone is different from the "norm" they are remarked upon. It's not because the world is a giant melting pot.

so you are going to ignore actual text (because that's what those "40 minutes of BS" are going with, ACTUAL text of the books, complemented by Jordan's interviews and notes) because apparently you just cannot take these characters looking anything but lilywhite.

gotcha.

(2 strangers are a big deal because they happen to be Aes Sedai and her warder, not just any old strangers)


there is one change that while I kinda see why they might be pushing, but I also kinda see how it's probably not the best idea but I will reserve judgement for now - and that is how much they are stressing that dragon can be a woman, all the while also stressing that the problem with male channelers is that their part of the source was corrupted and that's why they go mad and are dangerous to allow to keep channeling. its kinda making me wonder, why would dragon be such a big, scary deal if women don't seem to fall to madness from channeling issues. but... I'm also guessing that they are trying to show that anyone can be darkfriend and that's why dragon reborn is a big deal.. if dark one gets to them first, they are screwed, better to take care of them before they become a problem.

still changes the dynamic a bit, but.... it seems like in the show they are mostly going for "that's too much power for any one person" which... I think ironically might be to lessen a bit of a "men = bad, no power for jooo" vibe I was getting from original Jordan's setup.

[Shadowferal]

What I wanted....

[Xath]

so you are going to ignore actual text (because that's what those "40 minutes of BS" are going with, ACTUAL text of the books, complemented by Jordan's interviews and notes) because apparently you just cannot take these characters looking anything but lilywhite.

gotcha.

(2 strangers are a big deal because they happen to be Aes Sedai and her warder, not just any old strangers)


there is one change that while I kinda see why they might be pushing, but I also kinda see how it's probably not the best idea but I will reserve judgement for now - and that is how much they are stressing that dragon can be a woman, all the while also stressing that the problem with male channelers is that their part of the source was corrupted and that's why they go mad and are dangerous to allow to keep channeling. its kinda making me wonder, why would dragon be such a big, scary deal if women don't seem to fall to madness from channeling issues. but... I'm also guessing that they are trying to show that anyone can be darkfriend and that's why dragon reborn is a big deal.. if dark one gets to them first, they are screwed, better to take care of them before they become a problem.

still changes the dynamic a bit, but.... it seems like in the show they are mostly going for "that's too much power for any one person" which... I think ironically might be to lessen a bit of a "men = bad, no power for jooo" vibe I was getting from original Jordan's setup.

You can twist words, we have RJ's cast list that's what I'm going to trust in. I'll also trust in New Spring comics since he had a huge influence on the character design in those.

Also no the two strangers are remarked on before they have any clue who they are. Rand is super excited at the idea of two strangers reread the early eye of the world, that Moiraine is a "highborn lady" is secondary to the fact she is stranger because nobody ever comes to Two Rivers.

- - - Updated - - -

What I wanted....

Same

I'm re-listening to the audio books now while at work so that's nice at least. Thankfully I have the old recordings on audible not the "new one"

[Ragedaug]

so you are going to ignore actual text (because that's what those "40 minutes of BS" are going with, ACTUAL text of the books, complemented by Jordan's interviews and notes) because apparently you just cannot take these characters looking anything but lilywhite.

They don't have to all look lilywhite...or any kinda of white. If they all looked like Egwene or all looked like Perrin, that would be perfectly acceptable. Morraine, Lan, and Egwene all looking different is fine because they are from different regions. It's just odd when they make Two Rivers look like a sample of America with a ton of racial diversity. It would be like if they had Asians and Europeans in Wakanda for the sake of making Wakanda look more like America so it could be more inclusive. It wouldn't make sense.

[Witchblade77]

They don't have to all look lilywhite...or any kinda of white. If they all looked like Egwene or all looked like Perrin, that would be perfectly acceptable. Morraine, Lan, and Egwene all looking different is fine because they are from different regions. It's just odd when they make Two Rivers look like a sample of America with a ton of racial diversity. It would be like if they had Asians and Europeans in Wakanda for the sake of making Wakanda look more like America so it could be more inclusive. It wouldn't make sense.

maybe its because I grew up in a small country that people assume to be homogenous but its anything but that I see it differently, but self imposed isolationism of Wakanda is very VERY different from sorta out of the way but not exactly lost or forgotten Two Rivers. even in Jordan's descriptions two rivers people don't look homogenous in terms of their physical appearance. they are recognizable by their customs and their clothes mostly.

also, poster I was replying to seems to expect characters to look like they did in a graphic novel. which itself was interpretation and not some "this is what Jordan definitively wanted them to look like" I mean apparently that comic even directly contradicts couple of book descriptions so there is that. I mean... his own cast list contradicts the character descriptions, he just picked actors that he thought could embody the characters, not the actors that looked EXACTLY like the characters.

/shrug.

I get being upset about implication of dragon maybe being female. I get not liking changes to backstories and the like. but it seems like some people hyper focus on... things that are IMO are not crucial to the story, like... at all.... and its very interesting, no?

[Ragedaug]

maybe its because I grew up in a small country that people assume to be homogenous but its anything but that I see it differently, but self imposed isolationism of Wakanda is very VERY different from sorta out of the way but not exactly lost or forgotten Two Rivers. even in Jordan's descriptions two rivers people don't look homogenous in terms of their physical appearance. they are recognizable by their customs and their clothes mostly.

also, poster I was replying to seems to expect characters to look like they did in a graphic novel. which itself was interpretation and not some "this is what Jordan definitively wanted them to look like" I mean apparently that comic even directly contradicts couple of book descriptions so there is that. I mean... his own cast list contradicts the character descriptions, he just picked actors that he thought could embody the characters, not the actors that looked EXACTLY like the characters.

/shrug.

I get being upset about implication of dragon maybe being female. I get not liking changes to backstories and the like. but it seems like some people hyper focus on... things that are IMO are not crucial to the story, like... at all.... and its very interesting, no?

Why does it matter if they are isolated by choice or by fate? The fact is that they are isolated.

--also to add, the very isolated town of Two Rivers being racial diverse is not something I'm hyper focused on, nor do I let bother me, it's just something that takes me out of the immersion of the show. Just feels off. Trying to imagine some isolated town in earth middle-ages where you have a diverse group of people from every continent. /shrug.

Also, having folks in Two Rivers who look like Rand makes him not stand out. I would argue if everyone looked like Egwene, or Perrin, or Nynaeve, that would probably be better. Rand's constantly looked at with a bit of suspicious when he says he's from Two Rivers. Not a big deal, just seems like a pointless change from the book that has no additional payoff in the show.

[Witchblade77]

Why does it matter if they are isolated by choice or by fate? The fact is that they are isolated.

because... they are not actualy isolated? they are not actively isolated, they are just out of the way, but they are not in any way unreachable and people DO reach they as they also reach people.

moreover... why do skintones bother you this much in a fantasy world where by his own admission, Jordan made Aiels gingers for no reason other then because he thought it would be a cool fun different thing to do?

his world building had to do with cultures. not skintones.

[Ragedaug]

because... they are not actualy isolated? they are not actively isolated, they are just out of the way, but they are not in any way unreachable and people DO reach they as they also reach people.

moreover... why do skintones bother you this much in a fantasy world where by his own admission, Jordan made Aiels gingers for no reason other then because he thought it would be a cool fun different thing to do?

his world building had to do with cultures. not skintones.

They are way out of the way. There's a road in, but no road out. So they don't get passing traffic. As other have noted, it's extremely rare for any outsider to visit Two Rivers, 'cause it would take weeks or months to walk there, and there's no reason to go there if you aren't a merchant. So even the merchant showed up like once a year.

I already explained why the skin tones bother me, but you choose to ignore my answer. If I watched a bunch of white folks walking around fantasy Wakanda, I would think that's just as off. I also already said I think the folks from Two Rivers should have all been medium or dark skinned. And I have no problem with Morraine or Lan's skin in the show, because they are from different regions.