Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[Draco-Onis]

Apparently the state of Michigan disagrees..

pressing charges is one thing proving it is another, I have changed my opinion now that they are on the run there must be some damming evidence against them. It's really hard to prove these charges which is why parents rarely get charged in these mass shootings.

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They withdrew $4,000, turned off their cell phones, and fled.

Their lawyer claims they're in hiding for their own safety, and will return for the arraignment. I'm not sure I believe them, because their arraignment was scheduled for this afternoon and it's evening now.

Yes it looks really bad, the odds of them going to jail for the charges just increased exponentially with them on the run.

[Breccia]

Under Michigan law, an involuntary manslaughter charge can be pursued if prosecutors believe someone contributed to a situation in which harm or death was high. If convicted, they could face up to 15 years in prison.

While NBC News outlines some ugly consequences for the charges, there's also some hope that the parents are just panicking and not actually meaningfully trying to escape. That said, for a father who called the police to say "my son stole my gun and is the school shooter" the two of them fleeing does suggest they know they done fucked up.

[Milchshake]

American gun culture is a deranged and depraved place, but even for that context this is something.

US Marshals announce reward, release wanted posters for James and Jennifer Crumbley, the parents of the accused Oxford HS (Michigan) shooter.

[Armael]

They've been caught.

Parents of alleged Michigan school shooter arrested in Detroit

[Breccia]

They've been caught.

Whaaaaaaaaat? I thought they were going to turn themselves in, their lawyer said that just before they emptied their bank accounts and turned off their phones!

Man, if you can't trust someone who raises a murdering psychopath and hands them a gun, who can you trust?

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So we have some updates.

One, they plead "not guilty" and bail was set at $500,000 (checks notes) each. The prosecutor -- and I know this isn't evidence but one of my guidies lives in that school district, yes he says it's bad as it sounds, but he also says everyone is mad at everyone and that includes the prosecutor for, basically, letting the parents get away -- looks to be making this a hill to die on.

This is a very serious, horrible, terrible murder and shooting, and it has affected the entire community, and these two individuals could have stopped it.

They had every reason to know that he was dangerous, and they gave him a weapon and they didn’t secure it and they allowed him free access to it.

I get that. It's a school shooting. The only reason they're not more terrifying is the other 3000 pages in this thread saying "yeah school shootings happen a few times a year, but you have to weigh that against--"

If they make bail, they have to GPS themselves and also cops get to ransack their house and take all their guns, and if I'm reading this right, their booze and pot. I...would have left them the pot. I've seen people buzzed to high as fuck. I can pesonally attest to their inability to run from cops in that state.

Okay so what else...um, their lawyer...one of their lawyers? (checks yesterday's news) Yeah, they have two. Anyhow, their legal team has a few options available.

One, they are claiming that there was a prepared, agreed-upon plan for the parents to surrender this morning. I...don't believe that to be true, there was a manhunt announced and a reward offered. (Oh yeah, apparently the police were tipped off, the reward as shown above was $10,000 and I'd sell them out for a handshake) But the claim was, they were going to turn themselves in.

Our plan was to drive to the Novi district court this morning, because arraignments were supposed to start at 8:30 [a.m. ET] for any county arraignment, and we had plans to meet them at 7:30, to text the Fugitive Apprehension Team to get to the court by 8:30 so they could be arraigned first thing. Those were plans we made and solidified, and we did not announce it because unlike the prosecution, we weren't attempting to make this a media spectacle.

Now if these plans were not discussed with police or the DA, then no, that doesn't count. I could tell y'all that I have plans to go out and cure cancer this evening, but it means shit if I don't have a medical degree or training or ability or talent. Which I don't. However, if these lawyers contacted anyone, and they have records of that contact, they might reduce or remove some charges right away. Again, I don't think they do, but all it takes is one returned email "sure, see you at 8:30" from Sgt. Behind T. Desk and that's their way out. Of that part.

Another is, while reading articles on the subject, I found an interview with a law professor that basically lays out the defense. @cubby probably knows this, but until he weighs in I'll use this guy.

There are two things needed to prove manslaughter by negligence. One, they have to be the factual cause -- such as by leaving a gun lying around. That's a slam dunk. Two, the parents had to know that leaving the gun lying around would lead to a school shooting. That's going to be tough. Remember, the parents left to see the school that day not knowing the gun was already missing. Otherwise, based on that text message, they would have either brought him home or at least taken the gun. They also didn't frisk their child to find the gun, either. But also...not only do the parents have every right to own a gun, duh, in Michigan...apparently so does the child. Yeah, the expert interviewed said there's no law in Michigan against a teenager owning a gun. Yes, a pistol specifically. I read the Giffords site, I didn't think that was true, but I guess that's the defense's play, right there. Leaving the gun lying around is completely okay and Constitutionally protected. The prosecution will have to prove the parents knew their kid was a violent murdering psycho...before he took the gun. With the limited info we have, there's not much in the timeline to do that. He got caught browsing ammo online shopping during class, which is a little fucked up, also it's class time you shouldn't be browsing for ANYTHING on your phone fuckwad, but not proof he's a murdering psycho. Hell, I've browsed for ammo. And I don't own a gun, I just play a lot of RPGs.

The prosecutor is (rightly or wrongly, don't care) playing defense. She's been accused of making this into a big media show, and basically said "no, the guy who murdered four schoolchildren did that". She pointed out that people who intend to turn themselves in (even after missing their required time to do so) don't turn off their phones, withdraw a shitload of cash, and get a friend to let them crash in an abandoned building (btw "friend" is likely facing charges too, unless they're the one who turned them in, which yes if it had been me, I'd have said "hey you two quick, hide in this building with no windows and I have the only key" before 911ing, because I'd assume they were armed)

The parents' case will be a tough one for both sides. I am guessing that the sheer weight of the charges against them and the clear, loud public outcry against them, that they'll take a plea eventually. Failing that, there's some wiggle room in the "left a loaded gun the murdering psycho could easily get = manslaughter" and also the "ran and hid and but were totes going to surrender ugaiz" cases. And their lawyers are really going at it. I know this is America, and they're supposed to have a vigorous defense, good show etc etc, but these lawyers could potentially be losing business for choosing to defend the parents. Maybe. I guess there are a lot of murders out there whose friends don't want to go to jail for handing them the murder weapon, then willingly turning their backs until their friend makes the national news.

Oh, and the kid is fucked for life. There are zero articles about how he could avoid life in prison other than "maybe they won't get tried as an adult after all" which isn't a defense, that's mitigation.

[Endus]

One, they plead "not guilty" and bail was set at $500,000 (checks notes) each.

They've already demonstrated a willingness to flee law enforcement. They shouldn't have a bail option.

I'm willing to make a lot of leeway in most cases, but here, they knew they were to be arraigned, given a time to show up, and tried to flee. That should be a guaranteed revocation of any bail offer.

[Breccia]

They've already demonstrated a willingness to flee law enforcement. They shouldn't have a bail option.

I mean...look, from a purely cash perspective, I get it. Their son was the murderer, he's going away forever. The parents' fiscal culpability could come into it later in lawsuits, but...um...looking at their pictures, I doubt they have a million dollars. If they were to get a GoFundMe they...oh, right. Bad example. But honestly, if they said "we'll give you a million dollars if you leave us alone" that might work out. From a fiscal perspective.

In all other ways, yeah, I agree. People who run from the cops are proven flight risks.

[Endus]

Bail should never be an option. It’s a way to let people with money have rights the less fortunate do not.

That gets into the "leeway" I mentioned in my post. Bail should never be punitive; it should be a significant-enough amount to ensure you will show up to get the money back, but not an unattainable sum. If they're a flight risk, deny bail completely. If you just want to be punitive and set it unattainably high, you're an asshole dickwad and shouldn't be allowed to assistant-manage a Chuck E. Cheese ballpit, let alone have anything to do with the justice system.

If that means the impoverished murderer gets bail set at $1000 and the billionaire who punched a dude gets bail set at $100 million, so be it. Bail should have no connection to the severity of the crime; it has to do with ensuring they show up to court.

[RobertoCarlos]

Completely disagree. Any bail is going to restrict some individuals while not restricting others. If someone isn’t a flight risk just don’t jail them. Otherwise lock them up.

Yea ive never understood bail.

Just seems like one set of rules for the rich and another set of rules for the poor.

[Breccia]

UPDATE: the witness who called the police were not the person who aided and abetted the parents. Police are set to find and arrest whoever helped them.

I don't know what I'd have to be offered to hide someone accused of manslaughter. Pretty sure that shit's a felony.

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This CNN article goes into more detail why these parents were charged with manslaughter for handing their child a gun, when this is America and that basically never happens.

Read if you want, I'll mention one part is "the parents were shown a picture their son had drawn of someone shot to death and him laughing, and didn't think to check if that same son had the gun on him right there on the spot".

It's going to be an uphill struggle, because Michigan has really lax gun laws. If you're not required by law to lock up your gun, it's harder to charge someone with a crime for not locking up their gun.

[Masark]

They've already demonstrated a willingness to flee law enforcement. They shouldn't have a bail option.

That apparently isn't an option in Michigan given what they're currently charged with. Remand is apparently only allowed if they're charged with murder, treason, first-degree sexual conduct, armed robbery, or kidnapping. For all other crimes, the judge is required to give them a dollar value to post for bail.

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-go...-others-follow

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(jdo...name=mcl-765-6

[muto]

Just found this

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/05/us/th...oto/index.html

[Breccia]

Just found this

"Santa, please bring ammo" and what looks like one, maybe two minors holding fully automatic weapons.

Rep. Massie is from Kentucky.

[postman1782]

Just found this

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/05/us/th...oto/index.html

https://i.redd.it/hinm4cmkrq381.jpg

This one is better, because it is technically illegal in Texas. You can have all the guns you want, but if you have more than 6 dildos, that is a fine. @Breccia

[muto]

https://i.redd.it/hinm4cmkrq381.jpg

This one is better, because it is technically illegal in Texas. You can have all the guns you want, but if you have more than 6 dildos, that is a fine. @Breccia

Wait what? Owning 6 dildos is illegal in Texas?

[Breccia]

You can have all the guns you want

I think that's most states, maybe all states?

[postman1782]

Wait what? Owning 6 dildos is illegal in Texas?

Yes it is. https://www.chron.com/politics/texas...s-11161211.php

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I think that's most states, maybe all states?

Yes, but you can't have more than 6 dildos for some reason.

[Breccia]

Yes, but you can't have more than 6 dildos for some reason.

I guess Texas admits with its head up it's ass there's only so much room left for those.

[Zan15]

UPDATE: the witness who called the police were not the person who aided and abetted the parents. Police are set to find and arrest whoever helped them.

I don't know what I'd have to be offered to hide someone accused of manslaughter. Pretty sure that shit's a felony.

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This CNN article goes into more detail why these parents were charged with manslaughter for handing their child a gun, when this is America and that basically never happens.

Read if you want, I'll mention one part is "the parents were shown a picture their son had drawn of someone shot to death and him laughing, and didn't think to check if that same son had the gun on him right there on the spot".

It's going to be an uphill struggle, because Michigan has really lax gun laws. If you're not required by law to lock up your gun, it's harder to charge someone with a crime for not locking up their gun.

Sad part is the right wing gun nuts are going to raise a shit ton of money for this couple under the guise of gun rights, and they will in the end up with bank because of it.
Of course those groups will end up with way more of it.

[Breccia]

Sad part is the right wing gun nuts are going to raise a shit ton of money for this couple under the guise of gun rights

That has occured to me. I look forward to the twisted logic. "While we of course oppose fleeing from the police and resisting arrest, but what you have to understand is--"

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The person who helped the parents has come forth. He claims he was roped into it, claims he didn't know about the active warrants, didn't know they were hiding out that long, didn't really know what was going on, and didn't know them all that well. Why he would let people he didn't really know hide out in a building when there was no pressing reason to is beyond me. Unless, of course, he's scared shitless about being charged and is lying.