Why so many talent trees?

[Jessicka]

I don't understand the obsession with them, every patch seems to add more and more, usually accessed in increasingly disparate places in game. It's utterly mind boggling. And most talents are just passive, barely perceptible 1-2% power increases, but as percentile bonuses, stack up to enormous power creep in a short space of time which in turn very quickly leaves players behind.

Is this really what keeps people engaged now?

[Grimbold21]

You mean external systems

[cparle87]

I don't understand the obsession with them, every patch seems to add more and more, usually accessed in increasingly disparate places in game. It's utterly mind boggling. And most talents are just passive, barely perceptible 1-2% power increases, but as percentile bonuses, stack up to enormous power creep in a short space of time which in turn very quickly leaves players behind.

Is this really what keeps people engaged now?

People complained to hell and back in WoD that the game was "raid or die" so Blizzard added infinite progression for the small percents you mention for the crazy grinders to do. Sadly a lot of people see themselves as more hardcore than they are and instead of seeing the extra points as gravy on top of the meat they see it as not even having the meat if you're not at the cutting edge.

[vsb]

End-game character progression outside of gear progression is a thing. It was there since Pandaria and apparently people like it. Not me, though.

I guess, casuals, who don't want to engage in social activities, are cut from gear progression in raids, M+ or PvP. So they implemented separate character progression which does not require any skill or effort outside of time spent.

[Jessicka]

End-game character progression outside of gear progression is a thing. It was there since Pandaria and apparently people like it. Not me, though.

I guess, casuals, who don't want to engage in social activities, are cut from gear progression in raids, M+ or PvP. So they implemented separate character progression which does not require any skill or effort outside of time spent.

These things aren't separate. They stack. Hence the insane power creep.

[potis]

End-game character progression outside of gear progression is a thing. It was there since Pandaria and apparently people like it. Not me, though.

I guess, casuals, who don't want to engage in social activities, are cut from gear progression in raids, M+ or PvP. So they implemented separate character progression which does not require any skill or effort outside of time spent.

Ding ding ding, right answer here.

You might not understand it, but all these character progression, stack up to power eventually, and depending on the skillset of the player, it takes some of them months, which translates to subs, which translates to $.

What takes the better players 20 hours to do and go back to gear chasing, takes the average player 100 hours, while 20 hours can be two weeks for the better more active players, 100 hours of gameplay can be months for the majority of the game.

[Drusin]

Sadly a lot of people see themselves as more hardcore than they are and instead of seeing the extra points as gravy on top of the meat they see it as not even having the meat if you're not at the cutting edge.

Everyone games differently but if there's a gun (or anything) and the gun does 1 more damage than my current gun then I want that gun because it's better. Armor with 1 more armor, boots with 1 more speed point, bags with one more slot, etc. From the early 90s all the way up to now that's how I've gamed, "What's better? Then I want that".

[Echocho]

Because Blizzard don't want new or returning players after expansion launch. The more convoluted and interconnected systems they add to the game the more likely it is that the player numbers stagnate so they can focus on the whales.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Because players keep saying "We want talent trees back" and Blizz says "But IcyVeins."

If they'd just give us what we want they'd be able to stop making knockoffs every other patch.

[bloodmoth13]

,l

I don't understand the obsession with them, every patch seems to add more and more, usually accessed in increasingly disparate places in game. It's utterly mind boggling. And most talents are just passive, barely perceptible 1-2% power increases, but as percentile bonuses, stack up to enormous power creep in a short space of time which in turn very quickly leaves players behind.

Is this really what keeps people engaged now?

I dont think its a bad idea but it definitely feels bad.

Old vanilla talent trees were just like this, incredibly boring. Also they were cookie cutter samey samey.

They frankly didnt function as a system to build your unique character since everyone built the same way, but they DID give a solid feel of progression.

Blizz essentially brought them back for strictly end game progression instead of leveling. It should have sated nostalgia folk, and it should have given a sense of frequent progression for end game.

Azerite at least gave some interesting choices, but azerite, soulbinds, artifacts etc all try to do the same thing in different ways. It really doesnt seem though that they have been learning from each system and they just start from scratch each time instead of refining it.

[Relapses]

Because players keep saying "We want talent trees back" and Blizz says "But IcyVeins."

If they'd just give us what we want they'd be able to stop making knockoffs every other patch.

Talent trees up until MoP were boring as fuck. You literally would use the same fucking build 99% of the time. They were pointless.

These systems are being designed to give people something to work towards with their time gated content. A reasonable carrot on the stick to make progression in the system feel rewarding for the player on a somewhat frequent basis (daily/weekly bars to fill). I don't particularly care for it myself but the latest system in 9.2 is completely agnostic from tangible player power (outside of flying) so I think it's a step in the right direction. Take the same idea for the Cypher, dumb it down a little and use it as the basis for casual world content for the game moving forward and I think they have a winning recipe.

[Ladey Gags]

People constantly asked for talent trees to come back after MoP threw them out so in blizzard fashion they decide to make every new system introduced have a talent tree making people sick of them to where they then start asking to stop adding talent trees

Can’t make this shit up

[Utrrabbit]

I don't understand the obsession with them, every patch seems to add more and more, usually accessed in increasingly disparate places in game. It's utterly mind boggling. And most talents are just passive, barely perceptible 1-2% power increases, but as percentile bonuses, stack up to enormous power creep in a short space of time which in turn very quickly leaves players behind.

Is this really what keeps people engaged now?

You mean an optional system that is not required.

[Relapses]

You mean an optional system that is not required.

That knowledge would require the person complaining about the game to, you know, actually play the game.

[cparle87]

Everyone games differently but if there's a gun (or anything) and the gun does 1 more damage than my current gun then I want that gun because it's better. Armor with 1 more armor, boots with 1 more speed point, bags with one more slot, etc. From the early 90s all the way up to now that's how I've gamed, "What's better? Then I want that".

Yeah, but when the bonuses are so inconsequential but you HAVE to have them to the extent you force yourself to do content you hate or burn out then there's a problem. Remember in WoD trying to get the trifecta or Legion or BFA where people HAD to be in the top 1% of artifact levels and get that max titanforge they felt "left behind"? Blizzard is afraid to get told there's nothing to do again so they invent all these systems to give the actual hardcores endless progression but like you said everyone feels they have to and it just makes them mad. There's no winning.

- - - Updated - - -

Talent trees up until MoP were boring as fuck. You literally would use the same fucking build 99% of the time. They were pointless.

These systems are being designed to give people something to work towards with their time gated content. A reasonable carrot on the stick to make progression in the system feel rewarding for the player on a somewhat frequent basis (daily/weekly bars to fill). I don't particularly care for it myself but the latest system in 9.2 is completely agnostic from tangible player power (outside of flying) so I think it's a step in the right direction. Take the same idea for the Cypher, dumb it down a little and use it as the basis for casual world content for the game moving forward and I think they have a winning recipe.

I know there were fun hybrid builds people enjoyed that were fun in the talent tree era, but not for the spec I played. I took -4 energy off the cost of mangle if our raid didn't have an arms warrior and +1 second to the stun duration of bash if we did. That was my customization as a feral druid.

[Doffen]

Problem with the "talent trees" in SL is that they are so weak there is no need to do them or farm them asap, and it takes two hours a week to do them. In 9.1.5 it dumbed progression down so much that I quit.

Getting a rank 1 legendary vs a rank 4 one in CN, you know the dps difference? It was less than 30 dps. Easy to ignore even though it would only add two hours max to max out the weekly cap in Torghast. I got my upgrades through the mission table.

Shadowlands has been raid logging since day 1. Now its just stupid how easy it is.

[Relapses]

I know there were fun hybrid builds people enjoyed that were fun in the talent tree era, but not for the spec I played. I took -4 energy off the cost of mangle if our raid didn't have an arms warrior and +1 second to the stun duration of bash if we did. That was my customization as a feral druid.

Even the hybrid stuff had a bunch of mandatory talents you had to take or you literally trolling. In Cata you were required to put a certain amount of points in one tree before you could put any points in another so it further restricted your potential creativity. If anything, the MoP+ system allows for more customization than talent trees ever did. If they brought them back, you'd see the same people who are currently complaining for their return instead complaining that they feel too restrictive.

[MasterOfNone]

People constantly asked for talent trees to come back after MoP threw them out so in blizzard fashion they decide to make every new system introduced have a talent tree making people sick of them to where they then start asking to stop adding talent trees

Can’t make this shit up

somewhat true somewhat not. the talent trees they gave us were bad. the reason why hybrid builds were better is ranks. i could add a little bit here and a little bit there. the trees now are just one click get a talent that improves dps, mobility, cc, or defensive by a certain amount flat. makes having a "choice" not relevant if everyone is doing it.

[Jinpachi]

End-game character progression outside of gear progression is a thing. It was there since Pandaria and apparently people like it. Not me, though.

I guess, casuals, who don't want to engage in social activities, are cut from gear progression in raids, M+ or PvP. So they implemented separate character progression which does not require any skill or effort outside of time spent.

Nobody is cut from gear progression as long as they have the coin to bypass the entry barriers.

[Kithelle]

I don't understand the obsession with them, every patch seems to add more and more, usually accessed in increasingly disparate places in game. It's utterly mind boggling. And most talents are just passive, barely perceptible 1-2% power increases, but as percentile bonuses, stack up to enormous power creep in a short space of time which in turn very quickly leaves players behind.

Is this really what keeps people engaged now?

Welcome to classic WoW...and lots of people wanting this stuff back

This is EXACTLY what the old talent trees used to be...mostly passive stat boosts