With Blizz Giving Us What We Are Asking For, Is it Time for 10-Man?

[Moozart]

This thread on the wow forums has been picking up a lot of stream so I thought I would bring it to everyone's attention. Lets all jump on board, I for one agree 100% 10 man raiding is amazing. Watching Echo and Limit progress on FF in small groups they can arrange and change raiding time with weekly brought me back to 10mans and how incredible it was! Lets keep the thread going to see if we can get Blizzard to give us back what we all want!

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...izzard/1144259

And what a powerful, powerful quote it starts out with.

In this galaxy, there’s a mathematical probability of three million Earth-type planets. And in all of the universe, three million million galaxies like this. And in all of that, and perhaps more, only one of each of us. Don’t destroy the company named Blizzard, bring back 10 mans.

Regardless of the why, we know its been a rough year, and I want to say Thank you game developers for listening to the things we’ve been asking for, and maybe for the first time in a long time, being present on the forums. I hope that holds true today.

Here is the simply way to make an MMO “fun” again!

I don’t want this to be a debate, I’ve taken a poll on Area 52 and it was 74% agreed, I’m sure most realms will have the same outcome or close enough.

Anyways

Bring back 10 man raiding

This has always been the most controversial thing you did as a company (in game) and we have been asking for years to change it back. The truth is

It’s time.

signed
Pitpit, Stormbreed, PFish, Zulato, Snackiii, Capthotpants and Piripil.

I hope this gets read and taken into consideration,

This thread did not going anywhere near the direction you thought it would LOL. Love when this type of thing gets posted because OP really thinks this is how everyone feels and then get shit canned.

[cparle87]

Blizzard NEVER EVER gives the players what they want. They are literally too fucking stubborn for that. It is the biggest flaw with this game, not overtaking all the booty grabbing in their HQ of course. But blizzard NOT listening to the player base is their biggest and greatest flaw of the game right now. All I can tell you is keep hoping, cause praying is not working for communication with Blizzard right now.

EDIT....If it seems like they are giving people what they want. It is just a HUGE PR stunt to turn the player base attention away from all the booty grabbing and legal issues they have going on right now.

Because it's impossible. You can't please millions of people some of whom will want the complete opposite things from one another. Just look at the flight/no flight threads that lasted hundreds of pages. They release anything they please some people and they say nothing, and displease other people who come here to say Blizzard never does anything for them.

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Your raid schedule has nothing to do with game design nor the core problem of 20 mans.

Just find 19 other player 4Head.

No, thats not going to happen. Current situation is what is bad for the game. It's one of those things that look good on paper but doesn't work.
20 Man raids will forever be endless loop of rotating players over and over again because some burnout, internal friction, not liking other people within a group.
Which is what is currenly killing raiding guilds including Preach guild. Nobody wants to deal with endless HR work and being nanny for grown ass people lol.

You mean like in vanilla when it was find 39 other people and that was somehow the best thing ever? Or in BC when you needed 10 people for some raids and 25 for another leading to 5 people getting shafted every time?

[Log Cabin]

Your raid schedule has nothing to do with game design nor the core problem of 20 mans.

Just find 19 other player 4Head.

No, thats not going to happen. Current situation is what is bad for the game. It's one of those things that look good on paper but doesn't work.
20 Man raids will forever be endless loop of rotating players over and over again because some burnout, internal friction, not liking other people within a group.
Which is what is currenly killing raiding guilds including Preach guild. Nobody wants to deal with endless HR work and being nanny for grown ass people lol.

Opening up cross realm and changing mythic raiding lockout to reflect heroic lockout with cross faction would solve a ton of these problems. The big issue with mythic raiding is there are only about a eight servers you can realistically find another mythic guild on if yours happens to die. The rest need transfers.

[Eosia]

Mythic is a throwback to the difficulty of raiding during Vanilla and Burning Crusade with 40/25 man raiding respectively. Set compositions needed. This was done in response to what players wanted. They're not going to throw it away.

[kaminaris]

You mean like in vanilla when it was find 39 other people and that was somehow the best thing ever? Or in BC when you needed 10 people for some raids and 25 for another leading to 5 people getting shafted every time?

Vanilla did not have skill requirement, you just needed any 39 other people. That is the vast difference between current iteration. But still wasn't best thing ever.

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Opening up cross realm and changing mythic raiding lockout to reflect heroic lockout with cross faction would solve a ton of these problems. The big issue with mythic raiding is there are only about a eight servers you can realistically find another mythic guild on if yours happens to die. The rest need transfers.

It would only solve the issue when you have some emergency situation and couldn't fill entire group.

Your argument is basically reacting to issue rather than preventing it. You gotta ask youself a question why guilds die so fast in first place.
And the answer to that question is pretty simple. Mismatched personalities (too much difference in mentality/skill/friendliness etc).
As well as too much HR/logistic job required to run it.

[Coniferous]

Mythic is a throwback to the difficulty of raiding during Vanilla and Burning Crusade with 40/25 man raiding respectively. Set compositions needed. This was done in response to what players wanted. They're not going to throw it away.

They consistently moved away from it every single expansion until like Cata because it wasn’t working. TBC moved to 25 man. Wrath had 10 and 25, then Cata put 10 on equal footing with 25.

And in the heyday of 40 man, raids were a lot easier - much of the difficulty was the novelty and just things like internet connections.

I don’t think Wow will ever go back to 10 man because it’s too fundamental a change at this point, but it is an anachronism.

That said, fixing the lockouts and allowing cross realm/cross faction should have happened like 8 years ago.

[Eosia]

They consistently moved away from it every single expansion until like Cata because it wasn’t working. TBC moved to 25 man. Wrath had 10 and 25, then Cata put 10 on equal footing with 25.

10 man was a mistake. The devs came to a faulty conclusion that 10 man was a popular format because Karazhan was the raid that saw the most action in the whole of the expansion. They made the assumption that this was because it was a 10man rather than other factors like it was just a really cool raid in and of itself. They equalized it in Cata because in Wrath they had different loot tables and, true to form, the items coming out of 10 man were better than some in 25 man.

Flex came along later as a test difficulty between LFR and Normal and then was merged into Normal/Heroic so that fluctuating raiding groups could still raid.

[Log Cabin]

Vanilla did not have skill requirement, you just needed any 39 other people. That is the vast difference between current iteration. But still wasn't best thing ever.

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It would only solve the issue when you have some emergency situation and couldn't fill entire group.

Your argument is basically reacting to issue rather than preventing it. You gotta ask youself a question why guilds die so fast in first place.
And the answer to that question is pretty simple. Mismatched personalities (too much difference in mentality/skill/friendliness etc).
As well as too much HR/logistic job required to run it.

Right but not being bound to a single server opens up massive amounts of recruiting options that would be prevented from server bound restrictions...

[Coniferous]

Right but not being bound to a single server opens up massive amounts of recruiting options that would be prevented from server bound restrictions...

True, but if you want to allow mythic raids to just pug then last 2 spots you need to redesign some fights. Certain fights like Zanesh require so much coordination that you can’t really bring a pug.

Personally I think that would be a good thing but I know a lot of current mythic players would disagree.

[Log Cabin]

True, but if you want to allow mythic raids to just pug then last 2 spots you need to redesign some fights. Certain fights like Zanesh require so much coordination that you can’t really bring a pug.

Personally I think that would be a good thing but I know a lot of current mythic players would disagree.

I rather they not really be pugable simply barriers to recruitment removed.

[Coniferous]

I rather they not really be pugable simply barriers to recruitment removed.

Why not? Do you like fights like Zanesh?

I'm not suggesting they are puggable at the start, but once people have a lot of gear and borrowed power, it seems like they should get easier. When a fight depends on 18 or 20 people executing perfectly or else it's a one shot, gear doesn't help much.

[kaminaris]

Right but not being bound to a single server opens up massive amounts of recruiting options that would be prevented from server bound restrictions...

You forgot about other issues: Language barriers, people not wanting to play with pugs, not having any idea what to expect from pug.

Let me tell you what will happen: other people will be dissatisfied if you cannot keep stable rooster and will began to search for another guild.

At this point you want to have xrealm guilds and that is probably not gonna happen.

[Log Cabin]

Why not? Do you like fights like Zanesh?

I'm not suggesting they are puggable at the start, but once people have a lot of gear and borrowed power, it seems like they should get easier. When a fight depends on 18 or 20 people executing perfectly or else it's a one shot, gear doesn't help much.

It is a different topic... that said I want the ability for those fights to exist even if I believe they are becoming overdone as time has gone on.

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You forgot about other issues: Language barriers, people not wanting to play with pugs, not having any idea what to expect from pug.

Let me tell you what will happen: other people will be dissatisfied if you cannot keep stable rooster and will began to search for another guild.

At this point you want to have xrealm guilds and that is probably not gonna happen.

Everyone has addons to filter out BR players who play mythic or run mythic plus. They are already selected out of the community you don't have to worry about language. Guilds themselves at the mythic raid level are sheets with names. They don't really have the permeance you seem to apply to them.

[epigramx]

Lol, nobody plays for some imaginary respect from a random internet dude.

"lol" you can pretend reality does not exist all you want. People are naturally competitive creatures. I have seen the most casual raiding guilds caring about progress; you will never change that reality; unless you drug all people or something.

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10Man was way more fun

Citation needed; oh wait you will never bring it; that's objectively subjective.

10man was absolutely terrible at times because of its low utility.

It's rose-tinted glasses: the raid size.

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Just find 19 other player 4Head.

No, thats not going to happen.

So you can find 9 players but you can't find 19 players, IN A MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME.

It appears you don't want to search for a guild or you want your small guild to design the game.

[Xath]

No, 10 man heavily limits design it's also very hard to balance two raid sizes to the same level.\

Getting rid of faction realm barriers on the other hand now that would be a good thing.

[epigramx]

Mythic is a throwback to the difficulty of raiding during Vanilla and Burning Crusade with 40/25 man raiding respectively. Set compositions needed. This was done in response to what players wanted. They're not going to throw it away.

I think it was more specific and fine-tuned than that when it was decided to become 20man. It had reached a point during the 10man + 25man era that 25man was slightly bigger than needed to manage it as a raid leader and 10man was not respected by anyone in progress because it had to be massively nerfed to be doable by the semi-hard core or more casual guilds (because they almost never had all classes in their roster unlike practically all 25man guilds).

So in practice 20man is a 25man that was fixed to be managed by most raid leaders and 10man was deleted because nobody respected it VS 25man in the progress race (and it also fixed the major problem that it's objectively impossible to balance them even if you had all classes in 10man (because at the very least the positional mechanics (like "soak the puddles") could never be balanced).

[Revamp Man]

10-man raids never went anywhere. They're still there.

No you see they exist and people can do them but they want them at the hardest difficulty…which is impossible because they will never be able to balance it into a fun rewarding experience but that doesn’t matter because they need to cater to the guys who have only 9 friends because they can’t handle more people because they are insufferable and have moved to FF14 where they just pretend to be a cat girl and ERP in golden saucer

[Coldkil]

Also: WoWs class&gear design is not as dumbed down as in FF so it is even harder to balance it around fitting each spec into a 10man roster.

Only thing i disagree with. WoW class/gear design is not godlike. It's simple and streamlined as hell, they nerfed secondary stats over time so they can have more consistent use through all classes and specs. Main stat always wins so ilvl is king in most cases.

Also most rotations are not complicated. You just spam more buttons because of a short gcd.

FF14 is not "dumbed down", it's slower and more situational. Can agree with the fact not many wow players like it because it feels slow and not reactive. I prefer wow combat aswell.

As for 10man, wow cannot do it only because of the strict class/spec system. It's not because it's better or anything, Blizzard will do whatever most people care for to keep them playing. FF can do it because every character can do any job, so you have no benching at all. GW2 does it because classes are more fluid and raid rewards are for the most part cosmetics only.

What i'm saying is that wow isn't made to support small scale raids at high difficulty. You can have it in easier content cause raid comp really doesn't matter but not at mythic level. They could remove 20man and make it 10, and fights would be hard and tightky tuned, but this means half the classes could be just benched because they're not meta.

[MidnyteTV]

"lol" you can pretend reality does not exist all you want. People are naturally competitive creatures. I have seen the most casual raiding guilds caring about progress; you will never change that reality; unless you drug all people or something.

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Citation needed; oh wait you will never bring it; that's objectively subjective.

10man was absolutely terrible at times because of its low utility.

It's rose-tinted glasses: the raid size.

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So you can find 9 players but you can't find 19 players, IN A MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE GAME.

It appears you don't want to search for a guild or you want your small guild to design the game.

This guy has been bitching about 10 mans since WoD came out. He will never admit that he is too lazy to recruit and wants the game designed around lazy clique guilds.

[cparle87]

Vanilla did not have skill requirement, you just needed any 39 other people. That is the vast difference between current iteration. But still wasn't best thing ever.

Your post didn't say anything about skill, just about the difficulty of keeping a stable roster. Which I pointed out was way worse in the past cause you either needed way more people or you had two raid group sizes that didn't gel with one another.