The Night Elves/borne discussion thread

[Mace]

Likewise, their is nothing that void elves and night elves have that are Alliance.

Indeed.

And never have been.. it's not the horde's nor the alliance. It belongs to the race..and the factions of the race on both horde and alliance do have equal right to it.

When the void elves nad high elves build stuff, it's going to look like SIlvermoon and things in Quel'thtals... that's their racial architecture. Their magic users are going to be compraable to their kin on the horde.

It's exactly the same with the night elves. When the night elves build stuff it's going to look like Zin'Azshari and Suramar, cos it's the racial architecture. And some of it is shared with the Thalassian elves - those high elven lodges, some of them look like the rural buildings in night elf lands. Likewise when the nightborne will have rural lodges it will be that same design..unless blizzard upgrade it , in which case the new version will appear in both night elf and nightborne new stuff. Just like you saw the kaldorei flag used with both the Nightborne and nigiht elves. Same with the high elf flag.. same flag, just different colour to the blood elf one.

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The night elf highborne and moonguard mages are going to be comparable with the nightborne ones, just like the void elf and high elf ones are with the blood elf ones. There are differences, but minor ones.

Blood elves specialise more in destruction. Fire and blood magic. Nightborne in chronomagic.. whereas void elves are void and frost, whereas night elven moonguard/highborne will have speciality in moon/star magic they will be stronger than nightborne having lived with actual access to the stars for 10k years that Nightborne haven't even though nightborne will also have this magic available, just like void elves can wield fire and blood having been former blood elves - but that's not their specialisation area.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

But they are part of their respective factions, so we have to go off that.

As it stands:
Night Elves are going to Hyjal
Blood Elves are still in Quel'Thalas
Nightborne are still in Suramar
Void Elves and High Elves are between Stormwind and Telgrous Rift.

Of the upcoming novel, the Horde are not allowed in Night Elf lands.

So, I would expect that the next expansion will showcase an updated night elf lands.

[ravenmoon]

Cool things for the Alliance can happen at the same time as cool things for the Horde.

Night Elves creating a huge city for Alliance players on Hyjal can happen at the same time as Horde players getting their long awaited Quel'Thalas update.

I wouldn't count on Void Elves or Nightborne getting anything though.

yep, and this is how it should be, I don't understand those who don't want cool things for one faction over the other.

And don't bring up my boosting the alliance post, my vision in that discussion was never to deprive the horde of cool things, just redirect them in order to signifciantly boost the alliance. I still believe that would work, although it would mean a few years with the horde elves seeming to have not much, just like it's been quite a while the alliance elves have been in the gutter.

Still, the best ssolution is cool stuff for both, i would argue the horde elves already have their cool stuff. rights to Suramar, Silvermoon etc, but updating Silvermoon would be good.

Then we would need a really cool capital for night elves and also one for void elves, with a boost in the fortune and display of power and strength in the alliance elves too without human backing.

[Tanaria]

And don't bring up my boosting the alliance post, my vision in that discussion was never to deprive the horde of cool things, just redirect them in order to signifciantly boost the alliance. I still believe that would work, although it would mean a few years with the horde elves seeming to have not much, just like it's been quite a while the alliance elves have been in the gutter.
.

Night Elves have been getting a lot since the burning of teldrassil, and are still getting lore developments.
Just wait and see for 10.0, when we hopefully have an Azeroth revamp.

Also - Forsaken and Sin'dorei are core races and they need their own starter zones. Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas are central to them and their fanbases. Changing that is gutting both races for no reason. Alliance can have Quel'Thalas; 18 or so years after the first Quel'Thalas update for the Horde. It's not fair, in that regard where the Sin'dorei and Nightborne fans have to feel like their favorite races are not doing anything, when the Night Elves have been getting lore, along with the Void Elves.

You wanted more "fel" things with the Blood Elves. Well, that can still happen with them in Silvermoon. No need to kick them out.

You night elf fans are getting a location that is extremely core to your races' values. Hyjal has been central to the night elf people for 10,000 years...that's longer than Azshara's rule. You don't need Suramar and Silvermoon (not that the former will get an update anyway.)

Night Elf fans will lose all forms of sympathy by the other playerbases, because they've been crying about teldrassil, yet take great joy in seeing other races going through the same.

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Then we would need a really cool capital for night elves and also one for void elves, with a boost in the fortune and display of power and strength in the alliance elves too without human backing.

Void Elves, Nightborne and the other allied races likely, will not receive anything new.

Updates and new cities will likely just remain something for the core races.

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Still, the best ssolution is cool stuff for both, i would argue the horde elves already have their cool stuff. rights to Suramar, Silvermoon etc, but updating Silvermoon would be good.

Remind us how Horde players can use Suramar in-game? Last time I checked, it wasn't a city full of Horde Nightborne NPC's that attacked Alliance onsite.

All Suramar is, to the Horde, is that small circle that is the Nighthold courtyard.

[Beloren]

Tbh, I wish they'd just do away with the faction divisions when it comes to elves, it's the biggest source of fan rivalry of the most toxic and argumentative type,

Seriously, it's an easy step, that would go along way, doesn't have to affect the core warcrfaft theme (altho) it can, and could potentially make things even better and more interesting lore wise.


It's a bit silly elves who are thousands of years older than the two factions are so invested in them and define themselves by them.. it should be the other way round.

Now you have thalassians on both factions, and night elves on both, just stop letting them hate each other or be divided amongst faction lines

Some elves seek to unite all elves, some prefer separation. Blood elves not so keen on void elves cos of the sunwell, but void elves are keen on blood elves and Darnassians. Highborne and nightborne types get on well with Thalassians, but priest and druid. But thalassians not so keen on Darnassaian priest and druid types.

As for the horde and alliance, onlyindviduals or small groups between each race bother to be interested and the interest is benevolent and world peace or world defense focused rather than hate focused or enmity focused.

Thalassians call Silvermoon home, and Night elves call Suramar home and acall it a day.. but it would be nicer if we got an additional two separate capitals for night elves and void elves so we have 4 in total, and they all feel like separate nation.

[Tanaria]

Tbh, I wish they'd just do away with the faction divisions when it comes to elves, it's the biggest source of fan rivalry of the most toxic and argumentative type,

Seriously, it's an easy step, that would go along way, doesn't have to affect the core warcrfaft theme (altho) it can, and could potentially make things even better and more interesting lore wise.


It's a bit silly elves who are thousands of years older than the two factions are so invested in them and define themselves by them.. it should be the other way round.

Now you have thalassians on both factions, and night elves on both, just stop letting them hate each other or be divided amongst faction lines

Some elves seek to unite all elves, some prefer separation. Blood elves not so keen on void elves cos of the sunwell, but void elves are keen on blood elves and Darnassians. Highborne and nightborne types get on well with Thalassians, but priest and druid. But thalassians not so keen on Darnassaian priest and druid types.

As for the horde and alliance, onlyindviduals or small groups between each race bother to be interested and the interest is benevolent and world peace or world defense focused rather than hate focused or enmity focused.

Thalassians call Silvermoon home, and Night elves call Suramar home and acall it a day.. but it would be nicer if we got an additional two separate capitals for night elves and void elves so we have 4 in total, and they all feel like separate nation.

I'd support this, just so long as all Elves interacted with each other.

It wasn't just nightborne/night elves and blood elves with their alliance counterparts. (I don't think Blizzard would do that anyway, since they had a Blood Elf and Highborne own the Dalaran tailoring shop.)

The problem we've got though, is that Blizzard isn't shaping this up for the next expansion, since it's stated that the Horde are not to go into night elf lands and the elves are setting up at Hyjal - all signs seem to point to them moving to Hyjal.

[Beloren]

yep, and this is how it should be, I don't understand those who don't want cool things for one faction over the other.

And don't bring up my boosting the alliance post, my vision in that discussion was never to deprive the horde of cool things, just redirect them in order to signifciantly boost the alliance. I still believe that would work, although it would mean a few years with the horde elves seeming to have not much, just like it's been quite a while the alliance elves have been in the gutter.

Still, the best ssolution is cool stuff for both, i would argue the horde elves already have their cool stuff. rights to Suramar, Silvermoon etc, but updating Silvermoon would be good.

Then we would need a really cool capital for night elves and also one for void elves, with a boost in the fortune and display of power and strength in the alliance elves too without human backing.

I did your little challenge, and it does seem that the way night elves were portrayed in WoW doesn't match the description in WC3 or in the War of the ANcients novel, they do seem a lot more fromidable than they show up in wow.

But the story explains that, they've lost their immortality.."the essence of their being" is what the druid describes it as in the starter quests. Also they're not using the Well of Eternity to power up eitehr, Malfurion who led them to victory twice is missing, they're probably finding out the long vigil was pointless - that's 10,000years of wandering, hunting and living without civilziation or magic - for nothing, the legion are back... and they've lost even more now..


they're despressed, - the resolve they would have in the pre-sundering era ( progress, beauty advancement) or the long vigil era (debt owed to teh world, , chance of saving the world), is gone.

they are magically, physically and spiritually weakened - explains why they're not coming off like you read about them. But they have the potential to rise right tot he way they use to be, because they are teh same people.. just a little motivation and empowering and they're there.

[ravenmoon]

I did your little challenge, and it does seem that the way night elves were portrayed in WoW doesn't match the description in WC3 or in the War of the ANcients novel, they do seem a lot more fromidable than they show up in wow.

But the story explains that, they've lost their immortality.."the essence of their being" is what the druid describes it as in the starter quests. Also they're not using the Well of Eternity to power up eitehr, Malfurion who led them to victory twice is missing, they're probably finding out the long vigil was pointless - that's 10,000years of wandering, hunting and living without civilziation or magic - for nothing, the legion are back... and they've lost even more now..


they're despressed, - the resolve they would have in the pre-sundering era ( progress, beauty advancement) or the long vigil era (debt owed to teh world, , chance of saving the world), is gone.

they are magically, physically and spiritually weakened - explains why they're not coming off like you read about them. But they have the potential to rise right tot he way they use to be, because they are teh same people.. just a little motivation and empowering and they're there.

Empowered night elves is exactly what the alliance and the race needs. I frankly don't see why it hasn't happened to be honest. Them becoming more powerful lore wise does nothing to game balance, but it makes the race a lot more attractive..

Blizzard ins the story has also, weehtehr unwittingly or intentionally removed all those roadblocks you point out.. which begs the question, why aren't the night elves raping it? THey shoudln't even have needed the night warrior ritual.. but now they have it, they should be near unsoppable if they ool all their resources.


1. Malfruion is back for sure - cata intro narrative tells us this boosts their spirits.
2 The Legion is truly destroyed - and the reasons for it hunting Azeroth - wasn't their fault -t his is a huge weight of their shoulder, , debt paid, but also they can be confident again
3. Examples of Illidan and Farondis, as well as the Shen'dralar - show they can handle magic, even dangerous magic without falling to corruption like Azshara - whatever lack of confidence the Darnassians would have had over Fel and arcane should be done, as well as void magic now the Night warrior power is under control
4. There now is no reason not to use the Well of Eternity. Before it made sense to keep it's power hidden because the Legion was out there, and the Darnassian didn't know how to use it without alerting the legion - and they went for up to 10,000 years in that ignorance even though the Shen'dralar figured it out like almost immediately, the Nightborne also or maybe the Nightborne didn't but the shield prevented anyone from knowing. Now there is no need not to use it, and they really need it to rebuild and restore both their forests and their civilization.
5. We haven't seen them use the power of the Emerald dream or the world tree either.. which made sense before the War of Thorns, but now that has happened, I don't think any night elf druid would ignore protecting the forests from other races either.


Basically, with so few numbers left, but yet very highly skilled peopel.. they can reavlly be devastating.. EVery quarter and section we have the best surviving.

1. Druids, Priests and Sentinels - Elegy novel tells us the most skilled and powerful in these two calsses actualy misseed the wawr of thorns becsue they were sailing to Silithus - therfore surviving.
2. Highborne - we know only 3 out of all the many new recruits and the Shen'dralar were killed, because those at Teldrassil were used to create portals to evacuate as many citizens as possible rather than join the fight.. their first job was evacuating Ashenvale, then Darkshore to Teldrassil, then Teldrassil to STormwin - so the full strength of the shen'dralar remain
3. The shen'dralar from Dire Maul would have been the most skilled and talented, as well as strongest of their kin - Totheldrinn would have let the weaker and less useful perish first, meaniang that the best of the shen'dralar is what survive to get free of corruption and join the Darnassians.
4. The best of the Moonguard sruvive too. It so happens , the story tells us that the strongest Moonguard, all their leaders sruvive the nightborne attack.. the knoweldge and technkoal skil they possess can literally train another generation.
5. THe Farondis - were the greatest magical theorists, teachers and scholars ever, it jsut so happens these are the ones still around in their cursed state, tehy were wise enough and good enough to oppose Queen Azshara, and while she made an example of them, it idn't quite remove or kill them entirely, just took them out of play.



This isn't always the case for everyone. example:

1. The Nightborne - actually the weakest of the Nightborne survive. The strongest are mostly killed as they side with Elisande or the legion. We are told that. it's the weak citizens, lowborne, craftsmen, lower value in terms of power, sent of for fodder, kicked out that form the Nightfallen faction, and they have to be trained because most of the skilled and knowledgeable are in the Nighthold helping the legion. This is why we have to find them tactics from Ravencrest's Black Rook Hold, and they get trained by the Moonguard and the two Duskguard Nightborne on our side Silgryn and Victoire.

2. The high elves. - A lot of top talent was murdered by the Lich King, including King Anasterian. Of those that remained, some fo the best ent off to Ice Crown to take on Arthas and were turned into Darkfallen and San'layn, and the best of the others that were following Kael'thas, well the top ones betrayed him and became Scryers rejoining Silvermoon. This leaves the high elves rather low on experience and talent.

Ofc course this doesn't mean that there isn't potential amongst the Nightborne and high elves. They are elves, and it's in the gene pool, but it will take time to train them up again.

But it does mean that:
1. Night elves
2. Void elves and Blood elves have a very strong pool of talent

IF fnas see night elves powerful in battle - in all their areas, so whenever you see them, as sentinels, or druids, as priests, as highborne, as moonguard, as Illidari - they are constnatly kicking ass and displaying power.. then add to that a cool new ZIn'azsahri type looking city... and trust me, they'd be well loved.


woudln't hurt to do some model corrections either.


This is what they need to do to make the alliance look attractive.. show the night elves well, and continue to do so. Don't give them a shitty city and slaughtered again.. Show them using their assets, get their immortality back via the arcane, employ the Well of Eternity to power up for rebuilding and defense, use the emerald dream and world tree to restore the forests etc.


You want it such that if a night elf is around something special is going to happen that's really cool and does the trick. You want it such that when they are met in battle they win and do so emphatically, and when you visit them, its full of wonder because they've restored.

This should raise their profile significantly back to where it was, so they can be attractive again. You want to basically have htem have the best oftheir race has to offer.. which is the best of the pre-sundering era and the long vigil.

The combat prowrress oof the long vigil and wild wonder, the high vivilziation of the pre-sundering era and the excellence.

[Beloren]

I'd support this, just so long as all Elves interacted with each other.

It wasn't just nightborne/night elves and blood elves with their alliance counterparts. (I don't think Blizzard would do that anyway, since they had a Blood Elf and Highborne own the Dalaran tailoring shop.)

The problem we've got though, is that Blizzard isn't shaping this up for the next expansion, since it's stated that the Horde are not to go into night elf lands and the elves are setting up at Hyjal - all signs seem to point to them moving to Hyjal.

I agree, there is so much nuance in the story of the elves anyway, you certainly don't need them killing or hating each other totally like how it is now.

I never liked that they grossly exaggerated the Thalassian hate of night elves at TBC .. i know it was done to stoke faction rivalry.. and it has created this level of toxicity we see today, and they should end it.

I'm not saying they should now be absolute peace and lover either. Just go back to the days that elf on elf violence was the unspoken taboo (this ended in TBC. Elves don't do what we were written to do in TBC, it was far too savage. and not enough justification. I get it, they wanted to show we were now horde, tougher more brutal, but it still felt bad and ruined the elven ethos for me.

i'm fine with a few elves like Maiev and Lorash being as they are as the exceptions to the general - very much exceptions. But it's already done, they've shown the hate, now they need to show the bits that actually have been willing to corporate together.

[ravenmoon]

I agree, there is so much nuance in the story of the elves anyway, you certainly don't need them killing or hating each other totally like how it is now.

I never liked that they grossly exaggerated the Thalassian hate of night elves at TBC .. i know it was done to stoke faction rivalry.. and it has created this level of toxicity we see today, and they should end it.

I'm not saying they should now be absolute peace and lover either. Just go back to the days that elf on elf violence was the unspoken taboo (this ended in TBC. Elves don't do what we were written to do in TBC, it was far too savage. and not enough justification. I get it, they wanted to show we were now horde, tougher more brutal, but it still felt bad and ruined the elven ethos for me.

i'm fine with a few elves like Maiev and Lorash being as they are as the exceptions to the general - very much exceptions. But it's already done, they've shown the hate, now they need to show the bits that actually have been willing to corporate together.

I agree with Tanaria that core races, as cores should reflect the fullness of a race..that's why they are core. Allied races/sub races are often flavours of that with their own story - allows you to play a different looking version of that race. Even better if it's on the opposite faction because there it is appreciated the most as that race was not previously on that faction as playable, so having a it on the opposite faction allows you a taste of the core race.

Problem is with the night elves, we see a part of their race ONLY in the Nightborne. That's the problem, rather than the Nightborne showing a version of it of which the core race still exemplifies, they cut off the core race from that part their race ..at least visually,, if not in lore.

And it's an easy fix, give the kaldorei their amazing kaldorei city, show how awesome their Highborne Shen'dralar are visually, not just what you read, and that's it. Night elf fans will be happy because night elves are showing all the facets of night elves, and don't need to go over to the horde to experience their civilization side in game. or worse to feel a part of it visually.

yes i know you can feel a part of it by playing a mage, but the correct response would be to have proper arcane Highborne customisations beyond pale skin, purple skin, and purple hair, showing how good they're like Farondis and Moonguard and Nightborne were shown and giving them a city.

this can be solved by either having said Farondis, Moonguard remnant and some Nightborne also join them or just create situations where we can see the Shen'dralar do the incredible things they are renowned for - i.e.. great expert mages. As for the city, writing the night elves moving into Suramar so that the Nightborne either share or are in the Nighthold section while the kaldorei and Nightborne mix in the rest of the city is one way of doing it, however another way is to actually give the night elves a new city - all the buildings are in game.. in Suramar, in Zin'Azshari, in Nar'thalas.. you just need to put them together in away that looks kinda like the Warbringers Azshara and you're sorted.

The night elf architecture is already in game, the night elf lore of powerful arcane users is already there and was shown in legion, it just wasn't connected tot he Darnassians.. only those who read the lore are aware that the Shen'dralar are quite incredible, it's just not been shown in game.

You want the night elves to show the areas the lore has them great at, and that's the arcane and civilization, nature and forest life, teh stars and moon with a unique religion based on Elune and all that comes wtih that, and finally powerful fel users through the Illidari.

They've shown the Illidari, because you can play as one specifically and it shows a lot about the lore of the class and how powerful Illidan is. But that identity hasn't quite rubbed off on the Darnassians.

We don't see the Darnassians as powerful druids, priests or mages.. yet we know they have them in Malfurion, Tyrande and the Shen'dralar - Farondis and the Moonguard leaders as well as the Nightborne - so the powerful groups are not aligned with them, and of those that are, it's only the leaders that seem to be any good...


This is bad.. what powerful druid is there outside Malfurion? What powerful Night elf priest is there outside Tyrande? This is problematic.. yet we can ee lots of Demon hunters outside Illidan are powerful, because they were presented and shown that way, we see powerful night elf mages and groups like Farondis , the Moonguard and the Nightborne, not to mention we actually read about them.


In the books and game, we really don't see night elf druids or priests outside their leaders being powerful. it's terrible. The faction has been nerfed a

[Illia12]

Guys maybe someone has an expensive and rare costuming for the Night Elves, I'm ready to buy unique things, respond to this post!!!
Have a nice day)

[ravenmoon]

Guys maybe someone has an expensive and rare costuming for the Night Elves, I'm ready to buy unique things, respond to this post!!!
Have a nice day)

I burned mine with Teldrassil when I gave a fuck.. don't even know why I still post here.

[Alanar]

I agree with Tanaria that core races, as cores should reflect the fullness of a race..that's why they are core. Allied races/sub races are often flavours of that with their own story - allows you to play a different looking version of that race. Even better if it's on the opposite faction because there it is appreciated the most as that race was not previously on that faction as playable, so having a it on the opposite faction allows you a taste of the core race.

Problem is with the night elves, we see a part of their race ONLY in the Nightborne. That's the problem, rather than the Nightborne showing a version of it of which the core race still exemplifies, they cut off the core race from that part their race ..at least visually,, if not in lore.

And it's an easy fix, give the kaldorei their amazing kaldorei city, show how awesome their Highborne Shen'dralar are visually, not just what you read, and that's it. Night elf fans will be happy because night elves are showing all the facets of night elves, and don't need to go over to the horde to experience their civilization side in game. or worse to feel a part of it visually.

yes i know you can feel a part of it by playing a mage, but the correct response would be to have proper arcane Highborne customisations beyond pale skin, purple skin, and purple hair, showing how good they're like Farondis and Moonguard and Nightborne were shown and giving them a city.

this can be solved by either having said Farondis, Moonguard remnant and some Nightborne also join them or just create situations where we can see the Shen'dralar do the incredible things they are renowned for - i.e.. great expert mages. As for the city, writing the night elves moving into Suramar so that the Nightborne either share or are in the Nighthold section while the kaldorei and Nightborne mix in the rest of the city is one way of doing it, however another way is to actually give the night elves a new city - all the buildings are in game.. in Suramar, in Zin'Azshari, in Nar'thalas.. you just need to put them together in away that looks kinda like the Warbringers Azshara and you're sorted.

The night elf architecture is already in game, the night elf lore of powerful arcane users is already there and was shown in legion, it just wasn't connected tot he Darnassians.. only those who read the lore are aware that the Shen'dralar are quite incredible, it's just not been shown in game.

You want the night elves to show the areas the lore has them great at, and that's the arcane and civilization, nature and forest life, teh stars and moon with a unique religion based on Elune and all that comes wtih that, and finally powerful fel users through the Illidari.

They've shown the Illidari, because you can play as one specifically and it shows a lot about the lore of the class and how powerful Illidan is. But that identity hasn't quite rubbed off on the Darnassians.

We don't see the Darnassians as powerful druids, priests or mages.. yet we know they have them in Malfurion, Tyrande and the Shen'dralar - Farondis and the Moonguard leaders as well as the Nightborne - so the powerful groups are not aligned with them, and of those that are, it's only the leaders that seem to be any good...


This is bad.. what powerful druid is there outside Malfurion? What powerful Night elf priest is there outside Tyrande? This is problematic.. yet we can ee lots of Demon hunters outside Illidan are powerful, because they were presented and shown that way, we see powerful night elf mages and groups like Farondis , the Moonguard and the Nightborne, not to mention we actually read about them.


In the books and game, we really don't see night elf druids or priests outside their leaders being powerful. it's terrible. The faction has been nerfed a

I will go slighty off topic, but Its important to note and it has been said multiple times and that is that its simply important to give these subraces some identity and some sense of style or what ever. They hit a pretty good mark for the Nightborne since it was a missing part that still had alot of fans.

The nightborne were given an aspect that was missing from night elves. Hence their introduction ofc.

Giving nightborne druid aspects/costumization options or vice versa will lower the value of each. This is not a healthy direction and a very clear flavor and vision what each is suppose to be will be lost. This is bad and I cant imagine this is the direction you want to go to.

There is literally no reason to have it equally devived between the two when they both repressent each side of the coin. Next to you Raven and your brother there is like no request for this.. ever besides in this very specific thread and people.

Interaction between the elves would be good to see, but this can be said about every races right now. Everyone who likes races want an update on their position or how they fair right now in the world. Alot of new allies.. so little time to put everything in game. Elves need it more ofc since they have a much deeper connection.

How that would work without steppong to much on the horde vs alliance core part of this game. I mean I dont want to braid some void elf hair as a horde player either. With that said I would still like some distance between horde/alliance still.

But I mean I havent been fully into the last part of this conversation and it seems some have turned their opinions and feel more sympathatic towards the night elves, but my opinion is still pretty much the same on the topic about Nightborne/night elves. I tried hard to get new options for the Nightborne with detailed posts with pictures and did my best to get these iconic Nightborne features through officials forums.
I really dont want the same situation as void/blood elves. Most will not admit is, but blood have lost a big part of their uniqueness in that sense. Model(not altered)skin, hair and even eyes. They could have done the same with a different stance, thinner or something, like they did with the nightborne, to preserve that uniqueness.
Sadly we could see with their introduction they were literally viewed as bad night elf models, it wasnt untill 9.1.5 that, this view has slighty changed because of their eyes for example. That means we need things like race orientated costumizations options such as these nightborne eyes or ear plates. That is your motivator why you like that race and why you want to roll one.

So I hope you can understand why sharing is not a good idea and it would be a much better move to make nature cool for example instead of trying to take the cool part and add it to the other. It will never be as cool.. for obvious reasons.

[Mace]

To be honest, I am largely agreeing with the guys who are saying faction division is at the heart of this. I wonder if we would been care to make a fuss about kaldorei new city or home for high/void elves if the elves didn't relate to the factions in this segregated manner. Still, if it nets us 2 cool new elven cities, it's a win for the game and the fans, because even if you're horde elf fan, you'd enjoy the nice additions either when you attack or go on your alliance toons.

In the night elves you get much more than a majestic kaldorei city - which is all the Nightborne have to offer (which is fine, they're an allied race), you will also get a lot more involved with forests etc, so you see kaldorei rural homes - something you won't see via the Nightborne because they are a city state pretty much like Dalaran, not a full nation or or alliance of nations of the same race. you should see more with the kaldorei. However it is okay if you see similar with the Nightborne, but from a different view. they aren't meant to e a different race - so a different vantage point is good, and is even more useful I agree on the other faction that won't have any of it.

Giving nightborne druid aspects/costumization options or vice versa will lower the value of each. This is not a healthy direction and a very clear flavor and vision what each is suppose to be will be lost. This is bad and I cant imagine this is the direction you want to go to.Giving nightborne druid aspects/costumization options or vice versa will lower the value of each. This is not a healthy direction and a very clear flavor and vision what each is suppose to be will be lost. This is bad and I cant imagine this is the direction you want to go to.

I disagree with this because we have faction separation and they are on the side. if they were on the alliance, totally agree, and more should have been done for Lightforged and Highmountain to distinguish them from their parent races.

Allow me to share a different point of view on the whole thing - that is if different views are allowed ....
The thing with Nightborne, is because they are on the side, and the playerbase is so divided, it is actually an advantage if Nightborne get druidism and Elunism in their racial set up. It gives horde players access to this core aspect of the night elves they wouldn't otherwise have or experience, after all, they are a kaldorei based race. We should be seeing how the Order of Elune operates in a kaldorei civilization, like described in chronicles and wotA trilogy through the Nightborne, and we should be seeing what druidism would have been like if it was deemed as vital at the apex point of Azshara's kaldorei civilization. So while you may have something similar (visually) on the kaldorei alliance group in it's city, the focus of the stories won't be showing there.

Let me elaborate. This is obviously very diffferent from how the the Darnassians would operate though they may have the same things. They would have Elune order, they would have druidism and they would have a restored highly skilled magi Highborne caste too. As well as a beautiful city , a forest civilziation etc, but their emphasis is verydifferent. Their nation is n't dominated or ruled by an arcane aristocracy. Here highborne aren't the rulers of the roost, in fact, despite their great works and contributions to the new city and to civil leadership amongst the Darnassians, they're actually not as highly revered as the humble druid, because the most powerful beings amongst all the night elves are a druid and a priest, and highborne respect power.

Also balance, that is a new concept amongst the Nightborne is highly established amongst the Darnassians. THe Highborne amongst the Darnassians can be shown to grapple wiith this and achieve harmony as one of the nuances, and we can even show a difference between old darnassian returned Highborne and their Shen'dralar leaders and teachers, but most of Darnassian society has serenity and peace to it.this opens the door for dynamics to be shown that don't exist in the nightborne.

for example, the Highborne are eager to prove themselves worthy of their former glory and regain their prestige, but don't get it. They are shown to be pushing hard to amaze the kaldorei (similar to how Azshara did it - remember the Shend'rlaar are the ones that processed her top projects, often in secret so the empire would think Azshara did it). They are the drive behind elaborate buildings not connected to the priesthood. Remember the temples are elaborate and beautiful to honour the Goddess, and while the kaldorei have always done things beautifully, especially in cities, the Highborne are keen to show they are a huge asset, can be trusted and that their people need them.

None of this exists amongst the Shal'dorei, they instead are looking outward for recognition. They want the world to see they are honourable and strong, defenders of the world, they have much to prove. They are pre-sundering Kaldorei that dindd't have to face the trauma of a broken world or a vigil against the demons, but they also hold the torch of all the good things of the kaldorei civilization already there, (rather than being rebuilt or reforming like it is with the Darnassians.

In other words, you are seeing different angles of the same soceity. Because you have shown how the Order of Elune works in a civilziation setting on the Nightborne, you
dont need to rpeeat with the Night elves, though the Darnassians have a fancy city and a temple in that city, you are showing the preisthood operate in guerilla/sentinel type settings in the forest far more often, though they have a city..now this view is not available on the Nightborne side, though Surmar does have a forest, and the order of Elune there would have sentinels too.. one view informs the other. I now know how the Priesthood operates in the new night elf city without needing to be shown it, becasue it has been shown amongst the Nightborne. Same race, different views, different aspects focused o, none depriving the toher, but made all the more possible and necessary because they're on different factions, so each faction experiences the whole of the kaldorei just with different angles of it.

anyway, this is my insight.

There is literally no reason to have it equally devived between the two when they both repressent each side of the coin. Next to you Raven and your brother there is like no request for this.. ever besides in this very specific thread and people.

There has been a lot of interest in the past, but people have been so disappointed, many have just left wow or don't care anymore, because it's dominated by people who can't tolerate a view or opinion different from theirs.

I'm not accusing you, but it's one thing to have a different view of things, like I do, and another to actively bash those who think differently. one thing I have noticed is that alliance fans who bring this up for night elves often get laid on thick by opposers, to the extent it feels like bashing..both on this forum and the wow official ones. From recollection, most of it has come from blood elf horde fans - probably i rivalry, simply not wanting he alliance fans to have what they have - a sentiment Tanaria reflected quite strongly, and he is one of the biggest advocates of Sin'dorei supremacy and possession of all things elven connected to the arcane and elven civilziation to remain exclusively or best shown on the Sin'dorei - and if shared, it should remain in the faction and connected to the blood elves, like the Nightborne are.

Consequetly, the number of people responding has just dwindled, and the kaldorei never had as big a following as the high elves. You don't know how many private messages myself and Raven have gotten from others agreeing with us and encouraging us or expressing how they feel they are not allowed to have a different opinion than the h ardcore horde fanbase.

We just find that the horde elf fans are more vocal and more involved - I chalk it down to a lot more caveats been given them, and not enough to the alliance night elves.

Maybe a different approach is needed, the end of this faction rivalry. It would certainly make things better without removing the complexity and diversity of each elf group.

Interaction between the elves would be good to see, but this can be said about every races right now. Everyone who likes races want an update on their position or how they fair right now in the world. Alot of new allies.. so little time to put everything in game. Elves need it more ofc since they have a much deeper connection.

How that would work without steppong to much on the horde vs alliance core part of this game. I mean I dont want to braid some void elf hair as a horde player either. With that said I would still like some distance between horde/alliance still.

Saying that, I have to comment that the elf groups are not a different race/species, they are flavours, or views of pretty much the same thing. wow has so many races, it doens't need the elves to be totally different from each other, nor is it what fans want. Fans who want highe lves don't want soemthing totally differnet to blood elves, and vice versa when blood elves were reforged for the horde. Nor do fans who want to see a more complete kaldorei group, they don't want the kaldorei to be something totally alien to the nightborne either.. why?

Because all the stuff in theNightborne is also a core part of kaldorei lore. FI you are a huge night elf fan, you really want to experience parts of your lore that mean a lot to you. You want to see Zin'Azshari/Elundris and Suramar as much asyou Ashenvale and Val'saharah great examples of the greatest things your fave race can accomplish.. you want your units to be great too, if the lore gave you incredible wiards and druids as well as priests and demon hunters, turst me you're not going to be satisfied with just 1 or 2 of these at most.

So even if the other faction must havesome of that pie, you don't want it removed from your section to give to them, you'd be far less grumpy with th em having a different lens of similar tigs rather than taking away.

But would it matter if the faction boundaries weren't there?

But I mean I havent been fully into the last part of this conversation and it seems some have turned their opinions and feel more sympathatic towards the night elves, but my opinion is still pretty much the same on the topic about Nightborne/night elves. I tried hard to get new options for the Nightborne with detailed posts with pictures and did my best to get these iconic Nightborne features through officials forums.

I remember your posts on them, well done, while I may differ onmy views on similarities, Raven was very excited about the NIghtborne changes and we both supported you 100% to get all those changes for Nightborne. I say this even though I'm okay with more similarities between the two. Though I also donn't want htem to be identical.

I really dont want the same situation as void/blood elves. Most will not admit is, but blood have lost a big part of their uniqueness in that sense. Model(not altered)skin, hair and even eyes. They could have done the same with a different stance, thinner or something, like they did with the nightborne, to preserve that uniqueness.
Sadly we could see with their introduction they were literally viewed as bad night elf models, it wasnt untill 9.1.5 that, this view has slighty changed because of their eyes for example. That means we need things like race orientated costumizations options such as these nightborne eyes or ear plates. That is your motivator why you like that race and why you want to roll one.

So I hope you can understand why sharing is not a good idea and it would be a much better move to make nature cool for example instead of trying to take the cool part and add it to the other. It will never be as cool.. for obvious reasons.

I totally understand. For me it is a balance between similarities and differneces. On the one hand these arne't two different races, they are sub groups of the same race, and on opposite factions can allow them to be more similar than other sub-races givien on the same faction should be.. yet at the same time they also need to have something that is different or feel different.

The question is to what extent or what measure? I went i to detail on how I viewed the Nightborne and Darnassians should differ... for me it was more the angle, and emphasis.

I didn't feel like the night elves shoudl be the forest elves, and the nightborne the dark elves, and they should be totally different seeming.

The reason for that is that for me the Night elves have always been both forest elf and dark elf and the wider larger body, whereas the Nightborne are just the dark elf portion, similar to them introducing a pure forest elf worgen night elf group too. Both these go into greater detail of the two main aspects of the kaldorei, but in the k aldorei you have all of this + more becuase theya re supposed to be the original elf group.

I expect the kaldorei to have a great arcane group and a great kaldorei city as well as great druidic group and great forests too - whereas nightborne might only have a city and great arcanists, and Nelf worgen only a forest and great druids.. this is the roll of the origin Elf group and ii really like that original presentation, because hwen we got into night elves, it was WC3+ wotA trilogy that defined our view.

Still, therdo the models need to be the same like void elves and blood elves? No, they canahve differneces, but they don't have to be totally different..because they are both night elven groups, they become something else if you make them too different.

So how much? Well this is what we can debate over.

Nightborne are thinner by lore, because o f their history, but i can totally see nighborne gain body mass of night elves.. so I would be fine with them having a bodoy option that's larger.

Maybe i view it this way because I don't care as much for faction distinction anymore or feel there is justified enough reason amongst the elves for a different approach.

this is why I would be fine with night elves having thinner bodies like nightborne as an option, and Nightborne having the optiont o have Night elven ears, like others have suggested. Why? WEll lore wise, some nightborne do have night elven ears, and now they are eating food again, not to mentioni the Arcan'or is supposed to reverse the effects of thenightwell, it stands to reason some can look like night elves a lot more - leaving hteiri conjured armor, arcane tattoos and chronomagic to be the main differences.

I'm fine with that.. in the lore, those that would look like nigh elves would be very few anyway.. and vice versa... thin night elves would likely fit highborne types like the shen'drlaar, star tattoos like Tyrande wouldbe only on afew priests and possibly highborne too as an arcane addition.

This would allow Night elves to loko a bit more nightborne-ish but the stance is more indicative of highborne, and vice versa, as this reflects lore. To me this is acceptable. As a player who plays both, I would not make my Nightborne look like the night elf preferring them to be separate as possible, but then if i were a player that only played on one faction, I'd love those optios, and for me, something that reflects the lore or boosts it, I would always welcome.

Raven always points out to me how though he loves high elves, he actually prefers to play his void elves purple because hiis got the high elf look on the hblood elf otons he plays. He has no interest in making a high elf, but totally supports that others can, and that the option is there, because it is lore faithful - as you can see high elves and blood elves in Telogrus rifts joining the Ren'dorei faction even though they are not genetically changed to void elves.

I t also has to be mentioned that it is totally feasible that night elves are working with the Nightborne, that Farodin is still there, as well as Night eyes and the Vals'harah druids and priest refuggees that moved in are actually with the Nightborne - so wehther it's Nightborne that look more like Night elves possible or actual night elves too working with nightborne, the option shouldl be possible.


For me the Illidari exemplifyhow you do this mixture. THe illidari options dominate the regular night elf ones, even though you can make your Illidari look like a normal night elf in nearly every way..this is how it should be.

Void elf options should dominate the high elf ones - which is why I strongly support those void elf additions, of cusotmisable entropic embace, void mutations, the new eye types too and more that I suggested in the high elf post a few weeks ago. So while you can make it look like a high/blood elf actually most of the options are void positive.

The same shouldbe for Nightborne, while you can get the night elf body size and ear shape, you can't get the vines, you will have the Nightborne decorations and nightborne tattoos and glowy hands.

on the night elf, while you can get the skinnier nightborne body and it's changed stnace, to model a highborne better, you have differnet arcane star tattoos associated with the preisthood and mage orders of the kaldorei - different from the Nightborne, you also have access to vines and a reduced set of ornamentation, no face and cheek jewellery. Also no nightborne ear shapes either.


However I do ask the question again, woudl any of this be necessary if these elves could just choose what faction they played for? THe lore is there, high el ves look like blood lves, so if you rolled that race andplayed on the alliance you'd be a high elf. Nightborne were helped by both factions and actually in their story they really like the kaldorei iand work with them.. although Tyrande was beaten by Lliadrin to ask them for aid initially, you can easily see Nightborne wroking with the kaldorei and kladorie working with the nightborne, nightborne turning back into kaldorei etc, opening options.

Without faction barriers, would you need to share any options to play out whatever fantasy the lore permits?

[ravenmoon]

Everyone has heard of Queen Azshara and the great magi leaders of the Kaldorei.

its part of the fantasy even if they’re greatest influence was 10k years ago.

you wanna play fantasies related to night elves when follow them and that’s a very big one regardless of their current state.

if you were like me, and your interest in the night elves was strong enough to go beyond playing Wc3 or classic and you read the novels too - why should your devotion and affection be rewarded with neglect?
There is so much more about the night elves in the books than in the games sadly and vast majority of their dark elf shows up in the literature while abandoned in the game. This side have the detail there as opposed to visually in game. But it is there.

it’s the only race that has more in literature than in game, to ignore the picture and input the books give because it’s not visual is just silly. All who really are into night elves know that in game they were neglected, but they got lots of bog books on them.

I don’t see why you can have the fantasy of a night elf Druid priest or demon Hunter , but not a mage

And can have the mage fantasy, but not the best aspects of the Kaldorei civilization the race (mage, priest and Druidic ancients ) together produced.

I don’t see how night elves having a Zin’Azshari type city or able to play Azshara or Farondis grade magi powerful in their lore from as early as the WC3 manual shouldn’t be there.

Should night elves not have powerful mages or a Kaldorei pre sundering city because the Nightborne have this? But they are the sun race, and on the other faction - it’s like saying Kul’tirans can’t have warriors or mages because humans do or vice versa humans can’t have priests or mages because Kul’tirans do.

I feel night elves should have some amazing Kaldorei cities in their style (1 large pre sundering grade Zin’Azsahari type, a smaller similar like Nar’thalas and maybe one like Darnassus having a fusion of pre sundering and long vigil) , have some great forests - purple type a Teldrassil, green Val’sharah and multi coloured Ashenvale.

and also have great temples. Like the Cathedral of Eternal night - these are all I’m game. Just fix them up and let them be place if the Kaldorei.

you should be able to experience the fullness of everything the lore has for the Druid fantasy, the mage fantasy, the priest fantasy and the demon Hunter fantasy of the Kaldorei I say.

[Mace]

Everyone has heard of Queen Azshara and the great magi leaders of the Kaldorei.

its part of the fantasy even if they’re greatest influence was 10k years ago.

you wanna play fantasies related to night elves when follow them and that’s a very big one regardless of their current state.

if you were like me, and your interest in the night elves was strong enough to go beyond playing Wc3 or classic and you read the novels too - why should your devotion and affection be rewarded with neglect?
There is so much more about the night elves in the books than in the games sadly and vast majority of their dark elf abandoned E side have the detail ther as opposed to visually.

i don’t see why you can have the fantasy of a night elf Druid priest or demon Hunter , but not a mage

and can have the mage fantasy, but not the best aspects of the Kaldorei civilization the race (mage, priest and Druidic ancients ) together produced.

I don’t see how night elves having a Zin’Azshari type city or able to play Azshara or Farondis grade magi powerful in their lore from as early as the WC3 manual shouldn’t be there.

should night elves not have powerful mages or a Kaldorei pre sundering city because the Nightborne have this? But they are the sun race, and on the other faction - it’s like saying Kul’tirans can’t have warriors or mages because humans do or vice versa humans can’t have priests or mages because Kul’tirans do.

I feel night elves should have some amazing Kaldorei cities in their style (1 large pre sundering grade Zin’Azsahari type, a smaller similar like Nar’thalas and maybe one like Darnassus having a fusion of pre sundering and long vigil) , have some great forests - purple type a Teldrassil, green Val’sharah and multi coloured Ashenvale.

and also have great temples. Like the Cathedral of Eternal night - these are all I’m game. Just fix them up and let them be place if the Kaldorei.

you should be able to experience the fullness of everything the lore has for the Druid fantasy, the mage fantasy, the priest fantasy and the demon Hunter fantasy of the Kaldorei I say.

Not every alliance fan likes or wants elven fantasy, hell not every night elf fan wants the highborne fantasy...

But then there are many alliance fans who don't care for dwarves or for draenei... and human fans who couldn't care less about the church of the holy light or human warriors and some who couldn't care about human mages - this doesn't mean you don't have them.

Your lore is what your lore is, it's bad to fans when you do or write something a lot of people love and then you either change it, remove it or ust never do more of it. - and there were people who fell in love with all parts of the kaldorei lore. Not just the forest elf bits

I noticed when Nightborne became playable some staunch night elf Highborne and pre-sundering fan elves switched sides. I also notice that it is far more the blood elf fan crowd like Tanaria that keep wanting or insisting night elves kaldorei be as different form blood elves as possible, and their idea of difference is no arcane magic, no cities - just ruins, primitive savage types. They've been lending their full weight behind every night elf fan that suggests we get more "Wc3 " elves

Now I know some night elf fans like the savage night elf. but then to say this should be the whole race and ignore it's earlier lore rahter than do it well is a huge mistake. Siphoning it off to the horde exclusively is also a bad idea, because the kaldorei/shal'dorei is not really rooted in the horde, ti's biggest supporters are on the alliance.

i remember high elf opposers making similar excuses...there were alliance fans who loved the fantasy of hte high elves and wanted it available on the alliance in its fullness. it didn't matter that it was there on the horde, this was part of what they loved most of the about the alliance, a key part, and they wanted to see it there.

For some night elf fans, some, not all, this is the same sentiment/feeling.

[Beloren]

I do t think anyone here is begrudging you your amazing Kaldorei and ren’dorei cities. If that’s what floats your boat, good for you.

The fight is so 2018 - all Alanar is pointing out is that each group should feel more distinctive across the board rather than feeling more alike.

I say wow has plenty of room for all your desires, there is so much of the Kaldorei not shown a fuller picture could look very different from the Nightborne.


Here is what I propose that I think will make you happy and make the two groups feel very distinct.

1. The Kaldorei are the ones that have true Order of Elune in a city environment that we haven’t seen. Doesn’t need to touch the Nightborne. They can have priests but it’s low down and very magoceacy centred.

2. Kaldorei amazing city could look like Zin’Azshari instead of Suramar - moon white buildings with beautiful patterns and blue tops and purple. yes I know the architecture is night elven, and I read your posts pointing out the temples of Elune as signifying the race's type of architecutre is not soley highborne driven..

So granted the building architectures will have lots of similarities, but the kaldorei city will look an feel different because of
a) Lots of gardens and parsk in comparison, homes over flowing with flowers and lants,
b) Many tall buildings having roof top gardens
c) Some serious parsk, overseen by druids
d) animals and treants all over the place
e) Highborne section can be more distinct with a lot more ornate and jewelling a bit like Suramar's elite section, the houses don't have over flowing gardens but you'd see neat rows of trees.
f) Lighting is different, the kaldorei city glows white bright, this is not mage arcane power but Elune arcane radiance creatig the luminescence instead as contrasted to the more jewelled Suramar that has a darker colouring

3. Kaldorei arcane star tattoos look like Tyrande’ Night Warrior and Tyrande’s avatar of Elune in the cut scenes, maybe they get some effects like the balance Druid’s astral form’ star shower over their heads and glitter style stars in their hair. This is their arcane power display that fits both with the priesthood and arcane lore they have but is different from the Nightborne

But: no thinner models - they can get a different stance - but not the Nightborne.

4. If you want to see how Druidism would be like if it was accepted widely in Azshara’s reign, this should be explored with the Highborne in the new night elf city, not the Nightborne.

The Nightborne can have druids as a new thing because of Farodin and the Arcan’dor but it’s very minor, the society is mage focused

5. The night elf new city is not and shouldn’t be a magecraft. Sure Highborne can even become influential again, but the top dogs are the humble druids who live outside the city and the priests. Off course the story can evolve. If Farondis get restored this could show a bump in respect and reverence for the Highborne caste under his leadership. But it won’t be a case of night elves all over the arcane like Nightborne or Azshara’s time. The view is far more balanced.

But for the arcane lovers you can see some amazing arcane wonders but read only a few citizens amazed by it, the others kinda viewing the Highborne as show offs who might not have learnt valuable lessons

6. The race should show that the forest is really important, whereas the Highborne really care for just the cities and development/progress/international relations - this distinction can be far more pronounced in the night elves because of their history, in contrast to the priests for whom the only building they care for deeply is the temple, otherwise they are very night elf people focused. You quickly see how they in a sense balance the tow groups to create harmony

[Alanar]

I do t think anyone here is begrudging you your amazing Kaldorei and ren’dorei cities. If that’s what floats your boat, good for you.

The fight is so 2018 - all Alanar is pointing out is that each group should feel more distinctive across the board rather than feeling more alike.

I say wow has plenty of room for all your desires, there is so much of the Kaldorei not shown a fuller picture could look very different from the Nightborne.


Here is what I propose that I think will make you happy and make the two groups feel very distinct.

1. The Kaldorei are the ones that have true Order of Elune in a city environment that we haven’t seen. Doesn’t need to touch the Nightborne. They can have priests but it’s low down and very magoceacy centred.

2. Kaldorei amazing city could look like Zin’Azshari instead of Suramar - moon white buildings with beautiful patterns and blue tops and purple

3. Kaldorei arcane star tattoos look like Tyrande’ Night Warrior and Tyrande’s avatar of Elune in the cut scenes, maybe they get some effects like the balance Druid’s astral form’ star shower over their heads and glitter style stars in their hair. This is their arcane power display that fits both with the priesthood and arcane lore they have but is different from the Nightborne

But: no thinner models - they can get a different stance - but not the Nightborne.

4. If you want to see how Druidism would be like if it was accepted widely in Azshara’s reign, this should be explored with the Highborne in the new night elf city, not the Nightborne.

The Nightborne can have druids as a new thing because of Farodin and the Arcan’dor but it’s very minor, the society is mage focused

5. The night elf new city is not and shouldn’t be a magecraft. Sure highborne can even become influential again, but the top dogs are the humble druids who live outside the city and the priests. Off course the story can evolve. If Farondis get restored this could show a bump in respect and reverence for the Highborne caste under his leadership. But it won’t be a case of night elves all over the arcane like Nightborne or Azshara’s time. The view is far more balanced.

But for the arcane lovers you can see some amazing arcane wonders but read only a few citizens amazed by it, the others kinda viewing the Highborne as show offs who might not have learnt valuable lessons

Bolded part is 100% true and thanks. I mean there are so many npc options out there in the world to tske options from that each race would have enough and feel distinct enough hence I see no absolute reason why these unique race orientated should be shared accros the board. What is the fun that?

You gave some pretty good examples and I feel the same the Night elves and Tyrande, night warrior all have cool features that should be the focus including sentinsls and the whole nature kit, many actually like and is very nigt elf only.

The Nightborne have their npc counterpart stance and hsve become very iconic for the nightborne.

[Doffen]

That staff from the TW vendor made me feel complete.

[Mace]

Bolded part is 100% true and thanks. I mean there are so many npc options out there in the world to tske options from that each race would have enough and feel distinct enough hence I see no absolute reason why these unique race orientated should be shared accros the board. What is the fun that?

You gave some pretty good examples and I feel the same the Night elves and Tyrande, night warrior all have cool features that should be the focus including sentinsls and the whole nature kit, many actually like and is very nigt elf only.

The Nightborne have their npc counterpart stance and hsve become very iconic for the nightborne.

Then I'm curious to to see how you feel they should be distinct? - but bear in mind what I said.. it is a balance - this is not a different race/species but a different community... there should be commonality, especially as this one is drawing entirely from it's parent race, yetI agree they need to feel and look differently enough..

Also remember why we want this. As a fan of the race you want to see all of the best bits of the race, you want to see it's lore you read about too and be a part of it. Some people think that forests and trees is all their is to night elf lore so don't desire the other parts - they don't read the books. My friends and I have wanted to see and experience as part oft he night elves, a pristine night elf city, a faction of badass night elf mages - moonguard, highborne to the great level we read about.

We want to experience those things as kaldorei without needing to switch faction. this is the desire.

Bear in mind the Nightborne model itself is not "kaldorei" but a variation, it can be separate, however Suramar is, the arcane power, the beauty all of that is part of the kaldorei too which is why it is highly desired on the alliance side.


Its'a part of the kaldorei, which si why we have often advocated for Suramar or a night elf city of siilar beauty, and powerful night elf spell casters. Night elves have had a problem in wow, none of their groups - rangers, druids, senitnels, priests, mages have been shown as powerful or badass.

Most of their assets are either ruins or in ruin or being destroyed - this doesn't reflect the lore and angers us. Some or only content with seeing the badass portrayal of WC3, but some of us want all of what is in the lroe for night elves.

It's all in game already (albeit 14 years late), we just need to see it built up for the Darnassian faction..whether city, forest or fighting groups.

Ashenvale, Hyjal, Val'sharah, Teldrassil - all forests all ruins
Zin'Azshari (Elun'dris), Eldre'thalas (Dire Maul), Nar'thalas and Darnassus - all cities, all ruins (they are only amazing by description in books until we saw Suramar and zin'aznsari)
Cathedral of Eternal Night, Temple of Elune Val'sharah, Temple of Elune in Azsuna, Falanaar Temple, Temple of the moon - all in ruins too
Sentinels, druids, mages, priests - have done nothing incredible in wow the game - again, we see how amazing the preistesses are in WC3 (another game) and in the books, same with the mages, only in the books (until Legion, but those ones aren't part of the Darnassians), same with the druids, it took the feral drudi in Val'sharah to see a druid actuallybeing badass for the first time inwow, and Malufrion later on the darkshore 8.1 cinematic) - i mean come on.

Granted we are seeing more atm, but what is common ? Firstly, only an individual - Tyrande or Malfurion, Azshara or Illidan - no other night elves, their order members are constnatly shown as weak, either that or the strong ones are the neutral groups you can't play - the wardens, the Farondis, the Moonguard, the Nightborne (who are horde), the Dreamwardens (neutral faction)

See the problem?


We are not going to want old Darnassus when we know the night elves build cities like Zin'Azshari and Suramar, not going to want wimpy novice mages when we have seen the Moonguard/Farondis and the Nightborne, nor weak sentinels when saw what they could do in Wc3, or priestesses once you se what Tyrande is capable (for those who never read about her and have no idea how powerful she was anyway.

You can't then go and give the allied race, which you place on the opposite side, the best versions of their cities, the best combatants of their race and basically cut that access off from the main playable race. Do the best work of the native race on it's opposing side? Do the best work regardless of side is what it should be. These things are not desired because they are on the horde, they are desired because they are kaldorei and reflect the descriptions in the books so naturally fans want to experience them.

If you can make them distinct enough, while having the kaldorei properly portray all the aspects that are part o f it's lore in stunning beauty and excellence, we'd be fine regardless of what the Nightborne have..that's how it should be. When you divide the playerbase like that , you can't then take one factions race, put it on the other then do the other side's version nicer. No it doesn't have to be the same, but it has to be stunning too, and kaldorei.

Everything about the Nightborne apart from the 3 items they vary physically from the night elves is night elven, the city, the culture, the only thing that is apart from night elves is the chrono magic mastery - but then they are a night elf faction, so this isn't surprising, how different should they be? And because they have a cool city and powerful mages, does that mean the kaldorei themselves shouldn't have an equally cool or better city and just as powerful mages seeing that the lore says this and we are shown somewhat too in-game.

The difference then becomes how much.. this is why we say, the kaldorei have great city, great forest and great temple, whereas the Shal'dorei just have great city. The kaldorei have great mages (Highborne/moonguard) great priests (fabled Priestesses of the moon and night warriors) great druids (fabled druids) and great demon hunters and sentinel). The Shal'dorei only have great mages , this is another potential major difference.

We don't say because the Nightborne have mages and the arcane powerfully, therefore the blood elves shouldn't, nor should the humans or forsaken or draenei etc - so why shouldn't the night elves, we don't say because the Nightborne have an amazing city, no other person should.. especially the night elves.. the night elves should have an amazing city, it should be kaldorei, but it can be different looking to Suramar, while quite similar too. Look at Zin'Azshari in the video, it's different, it's got green trees, rooftop gardens parks, - compared to Suramr's colours, and while the buildings are similar, te style layout and content is different.

I like the idea of Elun'dris rebuilt in the stunning detail for night elves, but having houses filled with beautfiulgardens, parks, etc, animals and treants roaming about, a great temple, whereas the highborne section can be more rigid, with more jewlled ornamentation as opposed to nature adding the beauty to the buildings. - this is also kaldorei - whereas suramar has almost everything in it bejwelled. Look at Zin'Azshari it had a spread, amazing rooftops with magic and gold, but also lots of gardens too - Suramar has far less. and the jewels are everywhere.