How to make Blizzard create more WotLK and Legion like experiences

[bloodykiller86]

I have played this game since Beta. WotLK difficulty was a joke until you did heroic raiding. They nerfed and nerfed and nerfed both normal and heroic dungeons into the dirt, then did the same to the raids. If you disagree with this it's you who didn't play WotLK.

The only saving graces for WotLK were the actual LichKing fight, and Ulduar. They rest was utter shit.

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Yeah, they nerfed the difficulties so much they had to make a new one. Thank you for proving my point. dur

no lol the only difficult thing about content back then was raids and hard modes/heroic. dungeons were never hard especially after you outgeared them after a few days

[Merin]

Legion 7.3, specifically.

That was a good time.

I want Mists or Legion 7.3 quality, anything else is not good enough. I'm tired of paying for hope.

And no, I don't want Wrath. I was there, it was overrated outside of peak Warcraft atmosphere and Ulduar (Ulduar *was* fucking dope, though, after you suffered the morons version of Naxx for it)

[VideoGamePlayer]

What does wotlk and legion have in common? They are opposites. wrath was good, legion was terrible. Wrath took the barebones classes from vanilla/tbc and turned each spec into fully fleshed out, unique subclasses with complexity and actual rotations. Legion took the classes at the peak of their complexity and fun and turned them into oversimplified fisher price toys. Legion took away tons of abilities and all major glyphs, scattered half into the talent trees and honor talents, removed the other half permanently. Artifacts, two legendaries, and tier sets covered up this for PvE players. PvP players only got artifacts and got to experience an early glimpse of BfA.

Then BfA comes around, the borrowed power is gone, and players get to see what legion did to the classes.

[Malkishuah]

Wrath was super fun for me because back then all my friends were still playing, so it's hard to judge it objectively.

Legion on the other hand.. I think I had the best of times doing the Suramar quests and exploring the area. Unlocking portals and quests.. oh and that fucking scenario in the ruins, Loved it so much. Also the overall atmosphere and lore of the zone helped a ton. Suramar alone kept me playing and eagerly waiting to log in, something that had not happened since the first patch of cata with the hard heroics. Good times.

If they can somehow incorporate that feeling into a new zone, whilst not dealing with all that cosmic gods bullsh*t, I'd be happy to give it a shot. Although so far the zones in Shadowlands were abysmal in terms of storytelling and feeling.. So one can hope I guess.

[Flurryfang]

Well we just need a good old down-to-the-ground, low and slow, pirate story in WoW again All this going to other planets or other planes is lame. I want to explore some caves, fight some greedy people and take some treasure from a huge hoard of gold.
I want to find some new odd people, become their friends and help them rebuild their former home. I want to train a huge sand worm, use it to ram a castle and fight a horde of beast-like-humanoid.

Simple things. It was what made TBC, Wrath and to some extent Legion good. It was grounded actions based in a world of insane activities. Sure we might be saving the world or something, but it should also be important to save the dolphin people from their orca enemies!! xD

[Kalisandra]

What does wotlk and legion have in common? They are opposites. wrath was good, legion was terrible. Wrath took the barebones classes from vanilla/tbc and turned each spec into fully fleshed out, unique subclasses with complexity and actual rotations. Legion took the classes at the peak of their complexity and fun and turned them into oversimplified fisher price toys. Legion took away tons of abilities and all major glyphs, scattered half into the talent trees and honor talents, removed the other half permanently. Artifacts, two legendaries, and tier sets covered up this for PvE players. PvP players only got artifacts and got to experience an early glimpse of BfA.

Then BfA comes around, the borrowed power is gone, and players get to see what legion did to the classes.

Actually, for many specs Legion merely finished what WoD had started - WoD had already trimmed out a lot of abilities from the Cata-MoP versions of the game. Some of that trimming was for the good (cutting back on those random short-duration procced stuns and roots, and reining in the automatically applied snares, for example), but some of it wasn't at all.

[Johnjohn]

It's a bit of a slippery slope now but maybe not too late.

Honestly I think most of the casual crowd has quit at this point. Game has catered for a while now to min maxers and edudes, and a lot of them remain still playing. Blizzard kind of chose their audience, so they can't change too much too quickly.

If they do try to get casual players back, They have to put more effort into their type of game play. Ie not everything should be a rush to max level, not everything should be about endless levels of difficulty for the same dungeons forever, for the love of God make the game more fun than just endless world quests.

Honestly they are not going to do it. Other games have such a good casual experience now compared to WoW it would take an entire philosophy redesign at this point. It will cost them too many resources on a game thats already hemorrhaging subs. I suspect more of the same for a very long time.

[Echo of Soul]

Bullshit. Omnicrafters in FFXIV are very rare, most people simply don't care about professions at all - that is true for every mmo.

If you can't get good gear from crafting people won't bother with it. Back in the day you could craft a couple of pieces (both BOE and BOP) that was either the highest item level or the second highest in the game, this made people care about the armor crafting professions.

When Blizzard essentially killed off Enchanting and Jewelcrafting by removing colored gems and limiting enchants to a few slots that made people care about those professions a lot less too.

Herbalism and alchemy is the only one that's kinda relevant to have even though saturation on materials and abundance of gold and the WoW token have made it less relevant.

[VideoGamePlayer]

Actually, for many specs Legion merely finished what WoD had started - WoD had already trimmed out a lot of abilities from the Cata-MoP versions of the game. Some of that trimming was for the good (cutting back on those random short-duration procced stuns and roots, and reining in the automatically applied snares, for example), but some of it wasn't at all.

WoD did start the prune but there were still a lot of classes or specs that felt untouched. Ret paladin specifically felt even more capable than it did in MoP mostly thanks to the WoD-introduced talent empowered seals. Legion not only finished the job to handicap all specs, but pruned even further the specs they already gutted. Legion also simplified resource management. DK's now only used death runes, combo points became the same as holy power/chi. DPS had their non-damaging spenders like ember tap and recuperate removed, and word of glory became a talent with a much longer cooldown.

Nothing in MoP had to be removed. All abilities that were legitimately useless had already been removed by MoP. All pruning accomplished was reducing our capabilities, and less capabilities directly correlates to less fun.

[Utrrabbit]

Player

Houses

and

guild

free to build on land for guilds

Player

Houses

One

Of

The

Reason

I

Dislike

FF14.

[tacoloco]

You can't make Blizzard do anything, OP.

[Hastis]

I actually loved Legion a lot but many of the things people have complained about in BFA and SL were way worse in Legion. But sometimes the expansion that originated something escapes criticism and it's only really starting to annoy people in the next expansion or two.

what was worse?

Introduction of world quests? which gave to daily quests second breath but now they are boring cuz its 3rd expansion with them
Maybe mythic + which also stayed
Proffesion quests? and they started to do something with them
yeah alawys you can find bad points at something, legendaries, grnding ap
but look how they upgraded all of basic stuffs in game, order halls class quests
it was so cool.
I mean if u were casual you could very easily be pleased if u are hardcore of course the rng would kill you. But noone is perfect

[Zantera]

what was worse?

Introduction of world quests? which gave to daily quests second breath but now they are boring cuz its 3rd expansion with them
Maybe mythic + which also stayed
Proffesion quests? and they started to do something with them
yeah alawys you can find bad points at something, legendaries, grnding ap
but look how they upgraded all of basic stuffs in game, order halls class quests
it was so cool.
I mean if u were casual you could very easily be pleased if u are hardcore of course the rng would kill you. But noone is perfect

I think M+ got better in BFA and SL (not the dungeons themselves but having a seasonal affix brought some variety to it, in Legion you didn't get that) and I also think the AP grind changed for the better in BFA and SL where it wasn't AS mandatory or made as big of a difference as it did in Legion where I felt forced to grind Maw of Souls over and over to stay relevant in my guild. I also think the RNG of the legendaries (until they fixed this halfway through Legion) was very frustrating and Azerite gear and SL Legendaries in comparison where a lot less frustrating to obtain.

I still think Legion was better than both BFA and SL overall but there were some small areas where I feel Legion was slightly worse than these - though for me other things in Legion more than made up for it.

[Viikkis]

Player Houses One Of The Reason I Dislike FF14.

Never played FF14. Is housing mandatory there or cosmetic fun?

[cparle87]

Well we just need a good old down-to-the-ground, low and slow, pirate story in WoW again All this going to other planets or other planes is lame. I want to explore some caves, fight some greedy people and take some treasure from a huge hoard of gold.
I want to find some new odd people, become their friends and help them rebuild their former home. I want to train a huge sand worm, use it to ram a castle and fight a horde of beast-like-humanoid.

Simple things. It was what made TBC, Wrath and to some extent Legion good. It was grounded actions based in a world of insane activities. Sure we might be saving the world or something, but it should also be important to save the dolphin people from their orca enemies!! xD

Going to other planets has been a thing in Warcraft since literally the very first game. Remember the orcs are alien invaders. I also find it funny you later follow it up with these "simple things" making TBC great when it was the first time in WoW we went to another world. Also a big complaint I see on these forums is people get mad about those humble, helping out "adventurer" quests. They say "I've fought Old Gods and dieties, why should I care about feeding animals?"

[Echocho]

Legion isn't anything to aspire to. It had the exact same design flaws as BfA and Shadowlands, it just had a lot of content to cover up those flaws.

They should look at Wrath and MOP. None of those had this ultra hardcore first and systems driven design philosophy that has plagued the game since Ion took over the reins.

[Calfredd]

Never played FF14. Is housing mandatory there or cosmetic fun?

Just cosmetic but player and guild housing (minus apartments) are the only way to change your chocobo's color.

[Hastis]

I think M+ got better in BFA and SL (not the dungeons themselves but having a seasonal affix brought some variety to it, in Legion you didn't get that) and I also think the AP grind changed for the better in BFA and SL where it wasn't AS mandatory or made as big of a difference as it did in Legion where I felt forced to grind Maw of Souls over and over to stay relevant in my guild. I also think the RNG of the legendaries (until they fixed this halfway through Legion) was very frustrating and Azerite gear and SL Legendaries in comparison where a lot less frustrating to obtain.

I still think Legion was better than both BFA and SL overall but there were some small areas where I feel Legion was slightly worse than these - though for me other things in Legion more than made up for it.

Of course it is because eveything what you mention here was introduced in legion so it couldnt be perfect yet, but this what i wanted to say is hmm for example bfa introduced, warfronts, islands is anyone doing these (yeah islands some gold/transmog farmers but that is small %) but yea i agree what did u said here

[Kalisandra]

WoD did start the prune but there were still a lot of classes or specs that felt untouched. Ret paladin specifically felt even more capable than it did in MoP mostly thanks to the WoD-introduced talent empowered seals.

The talent that massively boosted Divine Storm's reach and damage (until they nerfed the AoE to only 'large') helped too. However, it was definitely trimmed down from MoP, with various bits of utility, etc. taken away. Then in Legion they took away much of the fun stuff in WoD - a 20-yard cone of 20% damage from your Divine Strom is NOT THE SAME as the huge Divine Storm we had in WoD. That this effect, which was one of the last things you bothered getting on Ashbringer, is considered a powerful legendary today is just sad. But worst of all in Legion, was that bloody pony. It's bareable now because you can get a decent duration out of it from conduits, but it still blows compared to the mobility set we had in MoP and WoD.

Legion not only finished the job to handicap all specs, but pruned even further the specs they already gutted. Legion also simplified resource management. DK's now only used death runes, combo points became the same as holy power/chi. DPS had their non-damaging spenders like ember tap and recuperate removed, and word of glory became a talent with a much longer cooldown.

Legion's biggest mistake, IMO, in overall class design was making pretty much every DPS into build-and-spend designs. Thje great thing about WoW from Wrath to WoD was that there was a style of DPS for everyone - some specs were 'simple' cooldown-based designs, some were energy pooling, some mixed things up, some used combo points, some were sustained DoT pressure...

Nothing in MoP had to be removed. All abilities that were legitimately useless had already been removed by MoP. All pruning accomplished was reducing our capabilities, and less capabilities directly correlates to less fun.

Agreed!

[Miffinat0r]

I know WoW players don't want to hear this:

But your game isn't fun because it has all this manual group creation content.

It's based around a system that lends itself to millions of players, but when sub count is low the system falls apart and you lose casual players first.

All of WoW's problems stem from a lack of trying to help casual players achieve what they want in game. All other issues are literally irrelevant. If WoW tomorrow introduced M+ LFD and ignored trying to make harder content they'd get more players.

That's the truth of it and the the reality is them listening to the people who have guilds currently is harming the game because YOU'RE NOT ADDING NEW PLAYERS WHO STAY IN THIS SYSTEM