[Spoilers] Shattered legacies (new cinematic)

[Nemah]

A few of my thoughts...

Why are her eyes not glowing? Is she not an elf?

If they redeem Sylvanas because her soul was splintered, doesn't this mean someone like Arthas can be redeemed as well?

This isn't the first time Sylvanas and Uther have interacted. They met in some WOTLK dungeon when Sylvanas travels to Icecrown to kill Arthas herself.

I don't really like that they're basically turned this into a multiple personality disorder thing for Sylvanas. This means everything she ever did in WoW as we know it was not really her. For me this sucks because even though Sylvanas at this point has gone too far, she had her moments of moral greyness in WOTLK and Cataclysm which actually fit her as a character I feel. Seeing her gloat when Garrosh went under trial in MoP was nice too, because of their history. Sylvanas was so much better as an anti-hero type of character, but they turned her into an Arthas-level villain and now they're saying that none of that was really her in an effort to "redeem" her. She's going to have to pay for her crimes anyway, why go that route?

And now it gets super murky in the light of everyone that has been "harvested" by Frostmourne ostensibly suffers from this split soul syndrome as well - unless it's only for major characters where that's relevant.

To boot - in her entire history as the leader of the Forsaken, all of which took place after "good Syl's" death, when is it that she was no longer who she was always pitched to be.

[Mehrunes]

The thing is that I'm not sure they're going for a redemption arc. People thought that was what they were doing for Illidan via Xera's version of events but he ended up owning all his crimes and stayed a hooved bastard.

They'll likely do the same with her, not redeeming her but still giving her an ending she doesn't deserve at this point. If she actually dies or has a final consequence, that's the best outcome.

Illidan literally became the jailer of Sargeras, safeguarding the entire cosmos for all of eternity. How is that not a redemption? Illidan spurning Xe'ra's very specific take on redemption doesn't mean he didn't redeem himself in the expansion at all and Blizzard's failed attempt at an aversion only lampshaded it instead. Also, he didn't own up to his crimes there, he "owned up" to the pain of his past that Xe'ra wanted to deprive him of via the forced transformation. His attitude towards his crimes at the end of the expansion remained precisely what it was at the beginning, which was "I'll do everything I want because it's all to stop the Legion and because I know best, fuck the shortsighted haters".

[Aucald]

To me, her redemption started the moment she went from being the penultimate villain to being the character everyone depends on in order for the forces of good to triumph. The fact that she had "two halves" already absolves her of a lot of the things that she did from an out of character perspective, regardless whether her supposedly "good half" accepts punishment in character or not. It isn't a full-fledged redemption arc that sees her going back to where she was prior to everything, but it does remove a lot of character agency and the blame - to a large degree - falls on the "bad half" and the Jailer, with the "good half" being so unimaginably benevolent to be willing to take the blame for it. It is an out of character redemption.

All of a sudden, through a single cinematic, she is partially or even completely absolved from everything she's done in Cataclysm, in Legion, in BfA and in the Shadowlands. This development means that it is in fact unfair to judge her character. We can still freely do so, but in the end it will all boil down to being corrupted/mindcontrolled/not herself.

Her being mission-critical due to having intel isn't itself any kind of redemption, it just makes the knowledge she has important to the cause of the good guys. The whole "two halves" thing is a bit more nebulous, but it basically comes down to the "her" you're referring to when you're saying "she's getting redemption." We know very little of what Ranger-General Sylvanas was like, given that her introduction is basically her death as a living Elf and becoming the Banshee/Dark Ranger we've gotten to know since WC3 and WC3: TFT, nearly 20 years ago. I'd argue that calling Ranger-General Sylvanas a "half" is probably vastly overestimating what her character is in terms of the narrative - she's a part of the original Sylvanas, sure; but it's the Banshee Sylvanas who has both the greater role and footprint in terms of the story.

More to the point, she is pointedly and by her own admission absolved of nothing. Ranger-General Sylvanas' acceptance of blame for her actions as Banshee Sylvanas is indeed benevolent, but it's not absolution, and it for damn sure doesn't forgive anything Banshee Sylvanas did. I view them as two distinct entities that are going to have to go through the painful and likely horrific process of merging - where Ranger-General Sylvanas has to live with Banshee Sylvanas' crimes, and Banshee Sylvanas regains the perspective where she's a complete monster. The resulting creature, this hybrid Sylvanas, is a new thing - but it is neither absolved nor forgiven for anything it's done (and it seemingly doesn't want to be). Sylvanas has been corrupted since she died in Quel'Thalas, after all; that's kind of what being a Banshee is when you get down to brass tacks. But she still had agency, she still had the wherewithal to choose, and her crimes stand because of that.

[bagina]

A few of my thoughts...

Why are her eyes not glowing? Is she not an elf?

If they redeem Sylvanas because her soul was splintered, doesn't this mean someone like Arthas can be redeemed as well?

This isn't the first time Sylvanas and Uther have interacted. They met in some WOTLK dungeon when Sylvanas travels to Icecrown to kill Arthas herself.

I don't really like that they're basically turned this into a multiple personality disorder thing for Sylvanas. This means everything she ever did in WoW as we know it was not really her. For me this sucks because even though Sylvanas at this point has gone too far, she had her moments of moral greyness in WOTLK and Cataclysm which actually fit her as a character I feel. Seeing her gloat when Garrosh went under trial in MoP was nice too, because of their history. Sylvanas was so much better as an anti-hero type of character, but they turned her into an Arthas-level villain and now they're saying that none of that was really her in an effort to "redeem" her. She's going to have to pay for her crimes anyway, why go that route?

I agree. It's doubly stupid because the real Sylvanas wasn't 100% evil, emotionloss bot all the time. She's displayed a wide range of different emotions, be it sorrow, or affection for the Forsaken, her family, bleh even Nathanos.

What's also retarded is the idea that what broke Sylvanas was just Arthas killing her, the fact that shes been forced to kill for him is somehow ignored. Well, it is mentioned but they blame it on the soul splitting. Why were other Forsaken like that when their souls hadn't been split? Suddenly the experience of all the other Forsaken is diminished, were they not also forced to kill and slaughter for Arthas? This is what largely made them into those grim figures with dulled emotions and penchant for cruelty. It's the immense experience of being a slave, of your soul being put through a grinder. Not their souls being split. That's why Sylvanas was Forsaken. They understood each other. Uther doesn't understand Sylvanas, he didn't go through half of the things she and Forsaken went through. He's not the person to mentor her. The whole evil Sylvanas/ good Sylvanas split will never not be completely fucking stupid.

[Mehrunes]

Foregoing later lore like Chronicle or SL itself, the text directly says Arthas is 'alone in his power and glory' after killing Ner'zhul and Blizzard in 2010 said outright that Ner'zhul is done and has served his purpose. It's all very literal.

Shortly before that they said that there's still more to tell in regards to Ner'zhul. Not to mention the start of the expansion's beginning where the Lich King reminisced on once being a Shaman. It was already a clusterfuck back then.

[Rozz]

Illidan literally became the jailer of Sargeras, safeguarding the entire cosmos for all of eternity. How is that not a redemption? Illidan spurning Xe'ra's very specific take on redemption doesn't mean he didn't redeem himself in the expansion at all and Blizzard's failed attempt at an aversion only lampshaded it instead. Also, he didn't own up to his crimes there, he "owned up" to the pain of his past that Xe'ra wanted to deprive him of via the forced transformation. His attitude towards his crimes at the end of the expansion remained precisely what it was at the beginning, which was "I'll do everything I want because it's all to stop the Legion and because I know best, fuck the shortsighted haters".

Because that's not a redemption as people were claiming or what they think Sylvanas will get.

He didn't reject his crimes, he didn't say anything different than before "I did this to fight the Legion and you're fools to stop me", and no one grew to suddenly love or like him(the closest thing being his understanding with Velen).

Xera was the only one who tried to actively recontextualize all that Illidan had done to make him a hero. He outright rejected the path and clean slate she offered.

The elephant in the room is that Illidan never properly faced consequences and was narratively rewarded with his dream. They can finally tell a story about Sylvanas' duality without suddenly giving her a Maiev level spin and kill her in the end.

[UndedoKoleda]

Sylvanas should be executed, period.

She has to answer for all her crimes, some of the major ones including burning of Teldrassil, plague-bombing Undercity, killing Saurfang, plotting to kill Thrall, trying to spark a civil war and split the Horde.

She can't return to Azeroth after all these. And you can't use her "good" part as an excuse as to not punish the bad half. The "good" part already had her(non-happy, unfortunately) ending. She died, she shouldn't be taken into account when deciding the fate of a "living" person that did so many atrocities.

Maybe, and that is a big maybe, after her death, when it's decided which afterlife she should go, she could be judged as a whole entity. But the mortal world fate of the "alive" Sylvanas should be judged independently from the "good" "dead" side that was recently returned to her.

[Magnagarde]

More to the point, she is pointedly and by her own admission absolved of nothing. Ranger-General Sylvanas' acceptance of blame for her actions as Banshee Sylvanas is indeed benevolent, but it's not absolution, and it for damn sure doesn't forgive anything Banshee Sylvanas did. I view them as two distinct entities that are going to have to go through the painful and likely horrific process of merging - where Ranger-General Sylvanas has to live with Banshee Sylvanas' crimes, and Banshee Sylvanas regains the perspective where she's a complete monster. The resulting creature, this hybrid Sylvanas, is a new thing - but it is neither absolved nor forgiven for anything it's done (and it seemingly doesn't want to be). Sylvanas has been corrupted since she died in Quel'Thalas, after all; that's kind of what being a Banshee is when you get down to brass tacks. But she still had agency, she still had the wherewithal to choose, and her crimes stand because of that.

The current Sylvanas may not want to be forgiven and she may be seeking attonement or a fitting punishment, but to an outside OOC observer of everything, she's been redeemed to a smaller or to a larger extent because all her actions now fall within a "grey zone"; a zone within which we can't know how much blame would fall on the Sylvanas we have right now. If she now sees everything in a way that allows her to critically judge her own actions, and if she wasn't able to do so in the past because of what happened to her, then the blame for everything she did in the past can to a great degree be attributed to the condition that befell her. We can speculate on just how much of her actions since Cataclysm were truly her own, but that is exactly where the OOC redemption elements sneak into play. Whatever you now present as her wrongdoing isn't entirely her wrongdoing anymore and as such can't be blamed on her. It isn't a classic redemption story and I can see why calling it a redemption can come off as misclassification, but I do see these redemptive elements.

[The Stormbringer]

They should redeem N’zoth too in this case. I’m sick of this.

He was just controlled by the Void Lords! It wasn't his fault!

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas should be executed, period.

She has to answer for all her crimes, some of the major ones including burning of Teldrassil, plague-bombing Undercity, killing Saurfang, plotting to kill Thrall, trying to spark a civil war and split the Horde.

She can't return to Azeroth after all these. And you can't use her "good" part as an excuse as to not punish the bad half. The "good" part already had her(non-happy, unfortunately) ending. She died, she shouldn't be taken into account when deciding the fate of a "living" person that did so many atrocities.

Maybe, and that is a big maybe, after her death, when it's decided which afterlife she should go, she could be judged as a whole entity. But the mortal world fate of the "alive" Sylvanas should be judged independently from the "good" "dead" side that was recently returned to her.

That doesn't really work, unfortunately. As much as I think this whole thing is a bullshit way to force a redemption arc, you can't just ignore who she is now. The "good" half of her is the one that's in control now, the one that seems to be making the decisions and running her body. You would effectively be condemning her to perma-death for something the "bad" half of her did. You would, effectively, be executing an innocent person.

Which is exactly what I think they wanted from all of this. Now that there's an "innocent" Sylvanas running around, they can keep the character (even though she's REALLY NOT the Sylvanas we've known for years and years now) and have an excuse as to why she shouldn't die after doing all those horrible things.

[Super Dickmann]

Shortly before that they said that there's still more to tell in regards to Ner'zhul. Not to mention the start of the expansion's beginning where the Lich King reminisced on once being a Shaman. It was already a clusterfuck back then.

You won't see me arguing that the plot was coherent only that Golden intended for that to be Ner'zhul as a separate entity and for Arthas to have offed him with the soul/mindscape bit being literal. The Howling Fjord bit is inconsistent with the book and the entire Matthias Lehner bit is inspired by the book while contradicting it. Metzen is the one to say that they were done with Ner'zhul in the coherent fashion that Blizz writers are known for:

Yes. Yeah, Ner'zhul is done. He served us well in that capacity, but really the Lich King idea... really is the ultimate expression, you know, as Arthas or whatever. Ner'zhul's done

Ner'zhul is the most dicked NPC by every writing team that has ever had the reins of this game despite being the game's premier villain in the game that introduced most people to the franchise.

As regards Sylvanas, the ending that gives them the most wiggle room to bring her back in a few years without letting her off the hook is to dunk her in the now-leaderless Maw to go freeing souls while on a personal level she goes off looking for wherever in the Maw they put Nathanos. She stays in hell forever as she's undead and so can't age and gets to make up for what she did in the only way that's meaningful in light of sending a whole lot of people to Turbo Hell. Then once she's had some time to cool and ferment they can pop her in again, much like they eventually will with Illidan.

[Aucald]

The current Sylvanas may not want to be forgiven and she may be seeking attonement or a fitting punishment, but to an outside OOC observer of everything, she's been redeemed to a smaller or to a larger extent because all her actions now fall within a "grey zone"; a zone within which we can't know how much blame would fall on the Sylvanas we have right now. If she now sees everything in a way that allows her to critically judge her own actions, and if she wasn't because of what happened to her, then the blame for everything she did in the past can to a great degree fall on the condition that befell her. We can speculate on how much of those actions since Cataclysm were her own, but that is exactly where the OOC redemption elements sneak into play. Whatever you now present as her wrongdoing isn't entirely her wrongdoing anymore and as such can't be blamed on her.

I would say that's subjective. I'm an OOC observer of events, and I don't feel as if anything has really changed the context or nature of her prior actions. Basically put, she got her conscience back - but she still did what she did, her actions still stand, and she should be held accountable for them by whatever form that can take. She accepts her own wrongdoing, so what I or anyone else feels is somewhat irrelevant. The real question is whether she'll actually be held to task for what she's done in some demonstrable manner within the story, and that remains to be seen. If she feels the need to atone but isn't made to by other agents within the story itself, then I'd agree she got a redemption (an undeserved one but redemption nonetheless).

[Mehrunes]

People trying to defend Blizzard and deny the obvious direction this story is going by focusing solely on the line where good Sylvanas is accepting responsibility for the Banshee Queen's actions seem to not understand how responsibility actually works. The two halves are at this point essentially two different people, who have vastly different personalities. And the good half had absolutely squat to do with what the Banshee Queen was doing.

It's not even the case of her not being in control like the good side of Arthas (until Arthas yeeted it out, that is), this half literally wasn't even in her body and instead spent the last decade and a half in the Jailer's torture dungeon as a piece of jewelry. Judging by her remarks about dying to Arthas she most likely wasn't even aware of what her doppleganger was doing until the Jailer shoved her back into her body five seconds prior in order to shoot himself in the foot.

The good Sylvanas had absolutely nothing with what the Banshee Queen was doing. She flat out wasn't there. She's as responsible for what the Banshee Queen was doing as she's responsible for Sargeras' Burning Crusade. Which is zilch. Her feeling responsible is just an expression of her paragon of goodness personality that Blizzard is pushing here despite the few things we knew about live Sylvanas until now being that she was already treating soldiers like tools, was vain and ignored Kael when making Nathanos a Ranger.

And that doesn't really bear on anything. It's most certainly not going to lead to the fifty quadrillion Blanduin orbiters WoW is infected with by now deciding to punish her for things she didn't do, because that would make their bones ache.

On top of that it's not even a case of her merging with bad Sylvanas at the end, creating yet another Sylvanas that both did and did not commit those acts. Uther explicitly showed that despite being "healed" from the soul shattering, he can still split into two distinct selves reflecting both halves of his soul prior to the supposed merge. Why would that be any different for Sylvanas?

So if there are still two Uthers, yet we don't hear a cacophony when he speaks, one is clearly in control, while having memories of the other one. It's going to be the same with Sylvanas, vide the previously datamined dialogue where Sylvanas has memories of the Banshee Queen about what happened after she died (unlike the good Sylvanas in the cinematic), yet has a Blanduinistic outlook on them, decrying the injustice of trying to kill the lunatic that decimated two entire kingdoms and almost wiped out her people without a binding lol-verdict from the August Celestials. And between said outlook and the color of her eyes, it's kinda clear which Sylvanas is in charge.

[Malcho]

Looks like some clonewars art styled junk.

[bagina]

@Mehrunes

Nicely said!

[TickTickTick]

So... why do we want to destroy the Jailer? What if it's his "bad soul" doing this stuff and there's a good Zovaal trapped somewhere? Why not just find the good boy Zovaal so that the Jailer can be redeemed and happy?

[Mehrunes]

Because that's not a redemption as people were claiming or what they think Sylvanas will get.

He didn't reject his crimes, he didn't say anything different than before "I did this to fight the Legion and you're fools to stop me", and no one grew to suddenly love or like him(the closest thing being his understanding with Velen).

Xera was the only one who tried to actively recontextualize all that Illidan had done to make him a hero. He outright rejected the path and clean slate she offered.

The elephant in the room is that Illidan never properly faced consequences and was narratively rewarded with his dream. They can finally tell a story about Sylvanas' duality without suddenly giving her a Maiev level spin and kill her in the end.

Your previous post simply stated that people thought we'd get a redemption arc with Illidan rather than a specific one and that he ultimately did something else instead. But OK, you meant we didn't get a specific kind of redemption arc where he apologized for what he did or at least had any regret about it.

Let's roll with that and let's look at what we already know about the nu-Sylvanas. And let's even push aside the good Sylvanas wholeheartedly condemning the Banshee's Queen actions already in this very cinematic on the off-chance that the Sylvanas that awakens isn't just good Sylvanas with memories on both and instead is yet another Sylvanas that is a mixture of both and covers the entire moral spectrum at once.

The awakened Sylvanas is flat out criticizing even the decision to try to shoot Arthas dead without a court order as per earlier datamined info. The exact same Arthas who by that point was a raging lunatic in service to the Lich King that wanted to kill everyone, who personally led the Scourge armies in successful campaigns that destroyed two kingdoms. So yeah, I'd say she's not going to remain as unapologetic as Illidan.

[Jackstraw]

The cinematic can't disappoint me more than Bebop 2021, but boy did we come close.

The models aren't bad, but are they severely unpolished. Looks like the art team got a very short notice and had to cut on cleaning up the new models and lighting.
Nothing important happens, some minutes of light walking simulator with the addition of some more evisceration for Bolvar, at this point just a burning crash test dummy.

But Sylvanas.
Oh Sylvanas. They are doing her really dirty aren't they.

Even ignoring the medium term happenstances - where is Tyrande, like at all? - how does this whole soul fractured thing work when she's a repossessed corpse to begin with?
Why is there a throwback to Vol'jin's funeral and her rise to Warchief when that entire event has been shown as manifactured? What am I supposed to feel?

Although really, Elven Sylvanas barking at the feet of the Banshee Queen, in an unwilling, telling parallel of the stature of the cardboard cut when compared to seventeen years of character development, bumps and all.

Also, is there any metanarrative about past Blizzard and current Blizzard with the whole inaction damns us all line? Are we getting this desperate?
I feel 9.2 will give us a number of field days.

[LordVargK]

nah, I would bet over 90% in this forum thing the whole story is a meme so far. It's so bad that it has to be some kind of social experiment on how much a fan base is willing to take shit from the devs.

I bet 90% of raiding players don't know or care about the lore of WoW (anymore). At least in my guild I could ask any other raider and they don't have a clue about the lore. Covenants are decided by what sims best and any cutscene is pretty much a hinderance while leveling.

[Rozz]

Your previous post simply stated that people thought we'd get a redemption arc with Illidan rather than a specific one and that he ultimately did something else instead. But OK, you meant we didn't get a specific kind of redemption arc where he apologized for what he did or at least had any regret about it.

Let's roll with that and let's look at what we already know about the nu-Sylvanas. And let's even push aside the good Sylvanas wholeheartedly condemning the Banshee's Queen actions already in this very cinematic on the off-chance that the Sylvanas that awakens isn't just good Sylvanas with memories on both and instead is yet another Sylvanas that is a mixture of both and covers the entire moral spectrum at once.

The awakened Sylvanas is flat out criticizing even the decision to try to shoot Arthas dead without a court order as per earlier datamined info. The exact same Arthas who by that point was a raging lunatic in service to the Lich King that wanted to kill everyone, who personally led the Scourge armies in successful campaigns that destroyed two kingdoms. So yeah, I'd say she's not going to remain as unapologetic as Illidan.

I meant what I said in reference to what you see in the first few pages. I know most people like to meme, but we both know the knee-jerk concensus is "she did nothing wrong kekw" when that's not the case so far.


And it's fine she's apologetic. Actually acknowledging her monstrous ways is fine. The fact that it comes so late is what bothers me.

[shadowmatrix]

Are all Forsaken redeemable now? Because it kind of ruins their character.

Isn't that what they have been hinting at for years now, that being Forsaken doesn't make them evil life hating monsters? Didn't the book try to bring Forsaken back together with living family members?