The Night Elves/borne discussion thread

[ravenmoon]

@Mace and @Alanar

I echo what Mace says, I was looking at what he wrote and I'd like to add this.

If you are going to do something great for one side, you have to do so for the other side... when you choose to use the same race on both, it will not do that Suramar's greatness is compensated by Boralus or Mechagon - different race. Where it is the same race you expect as much greatness, especially if your faction is the main home of the race.


Can you imagine if they gave the void elves a stunning new improved void version of Silvermoon, complete with assets, full story line, with forces that were so well done and then destroyed Silvermoon, showed the blood elves incompetent and beaten, then refugees now what would blood elf fans think?


It's a totally different story if you improved both them when you put aversion of that faction's race on the other side.. now can you understand how and why some of us feel this way? It's worse when it's all your sides lore facets, but it's not shown on you you only get the crappy versions. the ruins versions, you only get the forest savage side, you don't see the power, the greatness, nor the skill and the majesty - whether nature or arcane, city or forest. And because you have now seen how good your stuff is in game, you tend to want it more.


This is exactly how we feel.

[Beloren]

@Mace @ravenmoon

Welcome to world of warcraft, , this is the case for most races.. you're lucky if it gets shown. Draenei still haven't had any exposition on their mage strengths

Look.. I understand you somewhat, I'd be livid if the void elves get a brand new Silvermoon esque city and blood elves had Silvermoon destroyed and Eversong woods burned while void elves were sitting pretty, knowing they were a main horde race.. but someone also reminded me, the reason alliances want high elves so badly was because they had it first and felt it was ripped away from them.

But as you have said before, blood elves, night elves, void elves, nightborne - they don't belong to the horde or the alliance, not even to us. It's where blizzard place them, and they should place them in ways the fans would enjoy. So if it's in your lore, I know support you having it.. I'd like you to have a different version of the same thing.

Farstriders are in our lore, so I want blood elf tattoos, and rougher beards.. and I want void elves to have a different style if they get them, different colours. So whiles they are similar they are distinctive enough. I think this is what @Alanar is trying to say.

I don't think he is trying to deny your races' different skills or facets and heritage etc.. just saying they shouldn't be the same. And it would be nice if allied races showed different sides of a race like this.. but I appreciate it's more complex when the race and it's different sub are on different factions... which makes fans of the main side feel they should have their race's stuff.

I agree with both of you, the solution I would say is to then invent new things for the Nightborne that are different and stirs them enough away from the kaldorei.. Not completely at all, they are built on their night elven nature, so you can't lose that, but you can add some interesting and noticeable stuff.

• The nightborne haven't built anything as nightborne, so new stuff they do, could have some kaldorei influence like Suramar, but also something new, maybe something they invent or experiment.
• They already have chornomagic that is different
• Physcially, their ears, their skinnier frame and face ornamentation i think are fine.
• They could place more of an emphasis on Chrono magic and teleportation magic, whereas the night elves ones are heavily star and moon arcane focused
• They could also add lighter skin tones by adding that the Nightborne are also allowed to link to the sunwell, and this can be used to create new magic, new look

If they take Elunism, they could focus on aspects of it not really expounded in the kaldorei - like star and constella side of the order, also invent something for night elf male priests that was powerful back in the pre-sundering era, but kinda fell apart when their leaders were destroyed, and after the sundering, most of the men went to Druidism and Tyrande wasn't that knowledgeable about that side of things, nor were they keen because it was far more heavily arcane orientated - and she was more busy with her sentinel guerrilla warfare trained army and hunting the demonic threat than on expounding knowledge like the old days. .. this neatly explains why it is the same religion (not abandoning their kaldorei roots) but a different side of it.

If they take druidism too, it could be a far more balance version of it. valewalker - night elf druid lore on balance is very thin, we just know it is the heart of druidism, but most of the show in the Darnassians has been feral/guardian bears and cats and resto healers - they've had near zero explanation or walk through of balance .. this can be done with the nightborne and put their emphasis there.

From this you know how all druids' balance spec mean, and it's tied to the kaldorei but it feels different because the explanation of the focus has come via the nightborne. It also means you don't need to explain it over again on the Night elves, which makes your point about the city earlier o, if you've shown city lifestyle of kaldorei in Suramar, you dont need to show it in the Darnassian city , except where it is different, you can focus more on Temple and forest life, which once shown there doesn't need to be shown amongst the Nightborne only to state or demonstrate it also exists there and focus on where it differs.

i think that approach will do right?

[ravenmoon]

I'm sorry Beloren, this issue is a fan generated one mainly. Blood elves had great archers and a great forest too, and so do night elves. No one thinks that because blood elves have archers, the identity is confused because night elves do. Why is this the case with the arcane or cities when the lore has night elves doing both and very well + groups of them that do - it's both part of the race now and huge in their history/lore. It's because there are a very small handful of very vocal fans like Tanaria, who really love the arcane and covet it only for the group they play. and pushing that narrative aggressively over the years. And because the game hasn't shown it massively in night elves at the start, most fans aren't aware because most fans don't read quests, pay attention to lore or read the books that have extensive information on this side and aspect of them.

Over the years, some of these (mostly blood elf horde) fans have made a massive issue of this not being night elf identity or marginal in the night elves, taking advantage of the lack of visual portrayal of this side of the night elves although we have 4 books that write lots about it and show it in action.

Point is most players don't know the lore, or the story even in-game (because most don't read the text) is so that small group of Belf fans have made the arguments so much over the years (in oppsition to the enemy faction - thank you faction rivarly), a lot of fans now think it's right night elves don't have this element, when it's so integral to their lore and they've had it HUGE. doesn't matter that in WC3 the faction we eventually play didn't have it then, but i they do at the start of wow, and get it further developed ... and they take time to introduce a highly revered group as well as Darnassian newbies and oldies who are 10k years out of practice..

Most of the fans that played didn't see it (till legion) so it was easy for them to be convinced. Why was it only over the arcane and civilization and not archery? Simple, they didn't see it in the early part of the game because it was only in the quest texts and the books and from TBC onwards new blood elf fans wanted to be the elf side known for having elven cities and magic, so opposed the opposite faction's elves desire for it (I've been on the boards since the very start.

So the arcane not feeling native to night elves is more because of of fan misinformation amongst fans than this being a true reflection of the race from the lore or what the developers produce for night elves when they eventually do them in game. I've seen it happen, so many fans come in talking about night elves as dark elves, liking the caster aspect of the night elves, moreso those who read about it in the war of the ancients, and systematically the same culprits come on and change the narrative.

At the base line, the arcane, great elven cities, as well as nature and great forests, Elune and great temples alongside archers and hunters in addition to demon hunters have been the 4 staples of the night elf lore and race from their very introduction, their content in books and game.. Wc3 showed the priests doing arcane starfall, and while they had no mages, the very manual told you they had the greatest mages, and teh 3 volume book series already having been commissioned during the development of WC3, but finished release by the start of wow, chronicled a lot about that side.

it was then followed up by some amount of effort too in game, but most of the action took lace in books - not becasue they didn't ant to show it in game, night elves, like most alliance races were neglected in game for big shows on the horde to attract people to play them.


My point is, peopleshould feel that night elf mages and citeis re just as native to night elves as they are to high elves.. because in this version of the story, night elves were never just forest elves, they had are 10,000 year old + race of peole with incredible mastery over magic, the main group stopped using their magic for 10k years, but they still know, pluswe were introduced to several groups in game that never did over the course of wow + the books.


Anyone who follows night elves enough to have read the books and played all the content about them no way has a veiw of night elves as non magical, non arcane, forest exclusive elves. They will have a view of a much braoder spectrum night elf, a dark elf heavy grand, a forest elf heavy brand and several aspects like demon hunters priestesses operating in both forests and cities.

Because the likes of Tanaria them love the arcane so much and what the lore says it does, they want it only for their side, tthey have come down heavily agianst alliance fans wanting high elves or night elves showing up good at magic. And no one can say this is not in the lore, because it blatantly is. Oh they've said it, . and 15 years ago you'd have had 10 voices who corrected them, today, you'd be lucky if one did, because most of those players have gone, and the night elves have been shat on so much they long since lost intrest or switched sides.


Great arcane sorcery, great night elven citiesare part of the night elves and their forests every bit as much as rangers annd drudis - when distinguishing between Nightborne and Night elves, this should not be the separating point at all. WE shouldn'tbe making Nightborne more distinctive by removing ngiht elf mages or dneying them kaldorei cities at all. I think Mace's presentation of casting them in a different light that reflect the more subtle differences as well as their similarities in adddition to what I added is the way to go.

you also have some good points.. but I wouldn't worry too much of making them so distinct just to make the Nightborne feel different, for all the allied races they're distinct enough. I don't think Moonguard or Farondis mages being super powerful (which isn't new) or night elves moving into a city like zin'Azshari is going to change the look of night elves.

Everyone has seen night elves in Suramar (see the vivdeo, those elves that built it were night elven) seen Zin'Azshari, seen Farondis, Azshara, illidan, the Moonguard etc and if they've read the tales they know. They won't think the night elves less night elven or less druidic for having a proper city or powerful mages. No one fel t that way with Dranssus, instead peopel would jsut admire that they have a really cool city and lvoe to explore a side of the kaldorei they'd only seen a little off.

They won't be moaning about it,- the thing that makes them moan is when they show night elves crappily and actually you would find out the biggest issues night elves have is when they don't show them or refelct them as written in lore.

Mace, and quite a few others over the years, including myself, our biggest problem we talk about is the arcane and civilziation side of the night elves not been shown ,properly, and all of us have complained about the strength, power, skill, capabilitiy of the ngiht elves been poorly shown in game - this si where al lthe calls for savagery come from, because night elves are shown as pansies that do nothing and get trodden over, so they want them to come across as more aggressive - and well the horde fans who don't want night elves to ever excel in the arcane arts, always lend their voice to the savage cries only but oppose the arcane creis.. so when devs read it it seems like everyone wants savage no arcane.

Which isn't true at all. What night elf fans want is for the race they play to actually reflect the lore of that race's best aspects in game - both forest and arcane, demon hunting and Elune, all of it, it's the identity fo the ngiht elf - after following for so long, ofc I love druids but hell no, I don't want just druidism and the Forest, I want elune, the stars, the moon, the great temples the great cities, teh great arcnae mastery the well - i want to see th e night elves who've been devastated in the story so much get all the great thigns the same story said they have. ​And if that means just 1 amazing city or 2 from the many th elore destoryed, one amazing temple or two, and 1 amazing forest or 2, then so be it, but at least it will reflect all those bits, and they better show powerful preistsses, mages, druids and emon hunters.

[Beloren]

SNIP

You can't put most of this on fans, I know you've had a hard time on boards, but you've also been aggressive sometimes yourself.

You can't really blame fans if blizzard introduce forests for night elves, but only write about their cities and magic in books and only a handful read - then the next time they show a proper elven magical civilization is with the blood elves.

Most blood elf fans were formerly high elf or night elf fans, they switched because blizzard made the blood elves better and a lot of attractive - even if the took from night elf lore to do so - you can't blame fans for not expecting night elves to be so forestry.

Look at their start area, they only mention the well of eternity once and you have to read it, nothing of their history is shown to a new player unless you had read it in Wc3 manual or the books - how would they know? yes the evidence is all over the race, but wow did a shitty job of expanding and leading players to
1. Night elf arcane mastery and civilization
2. Night elf demon hunter mastery and influence
3. Elune arcane dominance

it's a fact, if you played wow you wouldn't even know priestess cast starfall - you get one measly starshards racial spell and it's gone by TBC.

If Dire Maul had been like Suramar then fans would have gotten the picture - but the Shen'dralar in there, though WRITTEN as great magicians, are shown to do nothing, they fight melee, like most classic mobs did. it's not the first either Tyrande for the Suramar invasion basically fought with her hands - no Elune spell, no bow and owl - eventually they fixed that.


This is not on the fans, it's on blizzard. You keep pointing out how night elf arcane development came late. Well, there is your answer, by the time it came its in most people's minds (not just horde blood elf fans) that night elves are forest, blood elves are fuller civilization. It's also in most people's minds nigh elves are weak.

This is how they are shown in game.. they may write them much more powerfully in lore, but people see the game, and sorry cataclysm remake came too late and showed to little - we all know some races got far more attention in game than others and as it was optional levelling, most won't have seen the ight elf mages unless they were interested. So by the time Legion comes, don't be surprised if vthat very few associated the magical Nelf show with night elves.


Look, I applaud your efforts trying to remind a whole community - you're probably one of those really old oriignal players still left - from an era when people took manuals and stuff written too seriously, or maybe it's your autism that contributes.

But it's not that big a deal,, as your own brother has commented, even if you never get quite the in-game boost to alliance night elf faction to show ythe best of your civilzation and magic, at last it's in game in legion and evident in Suramar and the Nightborne, take solace it is there.

We're still waiting 15 years on for an updated Silvermoon, and a proper Farstrider blood elf showing. If you're a draenei fan and you were far curious about Draenei mage magic and technology, that is seen ..just like the night elf star spells seen in the druid class and priest NPC abilities - but have zero explanation (something you or Mace pointed out), you'd also have been waiting ages, and Argus would not have satisfied.

Draenei would still have powerful knowledgeable mages, just like night elves, and you do see NPCs just like night elves, but they never got the showing l- at least night elves got the nightborne and Suramar, the Highborne in Azsuna the Moonguard and got a good demon hunter run even if it came very late.

so what if Tanaria and I argued against you tons, you have your evidence in game, no need to be so caught up about it all the time. our Farstrieders got similar treatment to your Elune priestesses, got a weak showing in the opening zone, but no proper rolloout.. i'd say we've had more show of night even wizadry and civilization in wow than we have of Elune, at least until Tyrande's quest line in 8.1

- - - Updated - - -

ALLIANCE NIGHT ELF FANS

Also, I thought we established that Night elves and Nightborne are part of the same race story and saga - does it matter that much that the alliance side night elves have to show what is already in game - just because those night elves are neutral and the other bunch is with the horde - it's still your favourite race.

You yourself spent ages arguing against anyone who disagreed, well, you're right, but being right also means all the stuff you want is already in game now and visible.

You also made that point about high elves to blood ef fans - basically high elf lore is blood elf lore, it's just a part of the race on the other faction , like you over night elves, they were annoyed how much attention was been shown to high elves on the alliance and failed to appreciate it was blood elf lore. Especially as most of the interaction of the high elves was with the blood elves or in regards to them. It is essentially the same as orcs experiencing non-horde orcs.

Although:
1. Yes, the blood elf fan base was probably jittery about it because it kept alliance fan hopes for high elves alive
2. Yes, you probably don't like that Nightborne after 7.2 have zero night elf interaction shown, only blood elf ones - but in fairness nightborne are different from high elves because they were almost straightaway made playable after their introduction.


Still they are what they are, is it that bad or annoying to appreciate that part of the night elves from the other faction?

I ASK THE SAME QUESTION OF VOID ELF/HIGH ELF FANS, DO YOU CARE THAT MUCH ABOUT HAVING YOUR OWN CITY AND MORE ASSETS DONE - SEEING THAT THE BLOOD ELF ONES AND SILVERMOON ARE ALREADY THERE AND IT'S PART OF YOUR RACE STORY and assets.

[ravenmoon]

Oh dear, @Beloren - fans care about such things. IF they were more neutral they wouldn't, but blizz has fashioned it's crowd that way.

Did you see the reaction I got when I suggested that blood elves and Nightborne lose their alliance identity and assets in an effort to restore the faction identities to what they originally were - this wasn't done to hurt the horde elves, but from my point of view to fix a meaningless faction divide.

The reaction from the main blood elf fans was very negative - they weren't happy that their assets and things that had been part of their race would now be on the other faction regardless of how good the reason was or how it helped the game.

Knowing full well that it would still be accessible to them on the alliance and it's still the blood elves and Nightborne but as high elves and night elves which is where all those things come from.. this was more true for the blood elves than the Nightborne, simply because Nightborne are basically a smaller group of the Darnassian elves who mostly came from Suramar anyway., while with void elves and high elves, they're the much smaller group.


Another example. I'm not sure you were around for was when Mace suggested that only void elves should get tattoos and rougher beards because that fit the vagabond/displaced/exiled look and story of the high elves you can now play and the void elves to a lesser extent - he was playing devil's advocate, but again, if you read the responses on the blood elf thread, all the blood elf fans expected more of the races' options and assets to sit on the blood elves because it was the core race, and were fine with the void elves sharing some, but not with the void elves getting preferential treatment or more of the cool stuff over them.


The irony was astonishing, because the same people feel the night elves should not have only the arcane and civilization aspects of their race, because that's in the Nightborne, but are okay with the other bits - and while that can be partially attributed to less of it been seen in the earlier days of the game, it's still not a reason because it was quite evident in the lore and has since been shown.

The hypocrisy is evident, they don't want you to have your race's stuff, but are when the roles are reversed they want all the caveats of their race. It's classic fan behaviour, little boys who don't like to share, even on things that actually don't belong to them originally.


Unless they truly open the races to both factions, night elf fans want to be able to experience the kaldorei civilization side of their race and arcane magic just as much as they do Priestesses of the Moon and temples, druids and forests, demon hunters and demons, sentinels and hunters, wardens and archers etc -- everything associated with their race in the lore.

I do not feel this is unreasonable. If Nightborne had been on the alliance, it would have been different, you would have Suramar established as the night elf civilization, Nightborne would be there with Highborne and all other city types, likely Darnassus would still be burnt, and the night elves would move to the Broken Isles, Val'Sharah would be the new Hyjal with Shaladrassil and all the wild gods that moved there, Azsuna would be Highborne country.. Suramar would before everyone, Nightborne main, but the priesthood and the temple beyond it, the surrounding forest and ruins and towns rebuilt having a mixture of everything. Demon hunters would be on the broken shore in the fel areas outside the Cathedral which would be cleansed and have grounds extend likely to half the island with the demon hunters having the other half. The wardens would have their towers and their vault on one of the Azsuna islands. The sentinels and undead would team up and have Black Rock hold as a Fortress against naval attacks that might come from Zuldazar/Zandalar and Kalimdor eastern edge.


There wouldn't have been a need to show anything more. because it was all there already. But with the Nightborne going horde, everything for the kaldorei on that end cannot be used.. so you have to do something for them.

I would just cut and paste together Different bits form Suramar and Zin'Azshari - with the Shen'dralar and Ancients using nature and arcane magic from the well to build a new city. I would have them repair Nar'thalas also and Val'Sharah become night elf bastions for the Darnassians, but Suramar remains Nightborne.


However if you remove the faction barrier, then all of this can change. With no factions, Nightborne are free to be friends with both blood elves and not be separated from the night elves they are integral too. I can see many of the city night elves moving in there, and it becoming some sort of neutral centre that handles kaldorei affairs, while the priest and druids live a more isolated life removed from international politics. In contrast, Highborne, Moonguard type night elves feature heavily alongside Nightborne types in trying to guide the world to a better vision they stewarded during the pre-sundering era.

Members of any race (basically players) are free to fight for any faction, but the elven races no longer align with either. Blizzard though must provide lore incentives why every race in one faction might work with the opposite faction - give the players who choose this some lore reason to hold on to.


if not, keep them separate, give the kaldorei stuff that makes them happy because it's good and it's not second rate to their sub-race on the horde. Maintain your faction boundaries in lore (even if you do open things up to players without lore). However , be warned, failure to this will just cause your players to be less involved with wow, because you simply don't nurture and fuel their fantasy and expectations. You created the night elves you gave them some really cool things in lore, a nice multi faceted race, almost like humans in that respect, but you cut them in half, showing only something s on them, but choosing to give rather than to share some of their coolest stuff to the horde.

I'm sorry, you'd feel a bit cheated as fan, neglected too, and it will just cause you to be less interested rather than more. Their choice really. They can carry on as if only the horde matters, or finally start doing things that will make alliance fans happy and more into their game. When you divide your player base like that, and you continually either neglect or funnel the shittier stuff to one faction, not all are going to switch, some are going to quit, and you will fuel a massive imbalance your game wasn't built to function on, the matter will get worse until ti destroys the game.

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Everything you've said is just blaming Blood Elf fans for Blizzard's story.

I honestly think you believe I sat next to Dasuner and Alex and held them at gun point, saying "Give Suramar to the Horde" and "Destroy Teldrassil."

And I think your so hypocritical, because your crying for sympathy for the night elves, yet your stupid idea of putting "assets" onto the Alliance, from the Horde, whereby the Blood Elves and Nightborne, along with Highmountain and Forsaken, are all in the position that nelfs are in now.

That is hypocritical.

[ravenmoon]

Everything you've said is just blaming Blood Elf fans for Blizzard's story.

I honestly think you believe I sat next to Dasuner and Alex and held them at gun point, saying "Give Suramar to the Horde" and "Destroy Teldrassil."

And I think your so hypocritical, because your crying for sympathy for the night elves, yet your stupid idea of putting "assets" onto the Alliance, from the Horde, whereby the Blood Elves and Nightborne, along with Highmountain and Forsaken, are all in the position that nelfs are in now.

That is hypocritical.

No, you've just affected the opinions of fans on the boards you stalk, reinforcing incorrect perceptions of night elves because you don't want them to be shown to have the arcane and civilization wonder - wanting them to be on the horde, despite the fact this has also been a part of the night elves.

Yes, you full well know that arcane magical expertise, advanced magical civilization are things night elf race has as much as they do advanced druidism and forests as well as priestesses and temples or archers and rangers..but because you don't want your enemies to have them, you oppose suggestions and desires of alliance fans that want them, and lend all your support to alliance fans that call for savage forest elf identity for night elves.. skewing the perception of what fans want.

You have often gone on as if it's wrong to desire things for the race you love. But only attack desires for great arcane users and elven civilizations - this is what is hypocritical, because when the reverse is proposed you have been up in arms.

My proposal to take things from blood elves was a solution to solve the faction balance identity crisis. And I really think it would do the job, in that proposal Nightborne and blood elves would eventually be rebuilt too - but you were inflamed of the idea that you would lose these aspects of the two races completely while totally fine with those who were upset that the alliance night elves and high elves had exactly lost those things rather than shared them with the horde when blood elves were introduced and when Nightborne were taken to the horde instead.

You should understand and support the alliance fans wanting to see all the things in night elf lore for night elves, not just support it only if it's non-arcane, forest based and primitive based. That's hypocritical.

I do admit that you are no longer like that now, but your constant forum vigil and aggressive responses hare part of why fans who read forums think that way, it's so different on the vast majority of players who don't come on boards, and nearly everyone I have met that has actually read the blizzard books on night elves and followed the lore in game, agrees with me and Mace concerning night elves.

When they come on forums making topics and supporting, people like you cry them down., or use to stalk them and cry them down.


The reason you have so much support is because of how slow blizzard has been in showing the other sides of the night elves and not showing them with conviction..like they have done with most other races.. if they had pushed night elves as aggressively as they did the horde main races (orcs, blood elves, trolls) or humans, fans would have known and felt night elf arcane users are as natural as night elf druids or hunters. Even the portrayal of night elf hunters and archers , priestesses, demon hunters and mages has been shitty in wow. only night elf druids have had a good show and sentinels to a lesser extent.

and as @Feanoro as pointed out, it's because they don't give a shit about it. Which is stupid, night elves were one of their biggest assets coming into wow, and they gutted the race, threw all their focus into the horde, and till this day struggled to keep developing them we, because they weren't interested. Yet despite that they still remain the most popular alliance race, sometimes ahead of humans, sometimes behind and this is even with high elves now playable, because high elves have eaten more into the human population than the night elf one.

It's also incredible how popular the night elf mage is given how little of it is visible in game, most of it is in the lore.. and yet here we are. So why do you keep opposing night elves having a pre-sundering kaldorei city, and mage groups as powerful as the lore has described them in the pre-sundering era? do you not understand that a fan of the race would like to see many aspects of the race?

This part of the night elves has been in the lore since WC3, if not shown, it's not new, why does it surprise any one like you that there are fans who read the lore and enjoy other aspects of the race that aren't necessarily shown in the first game or the first opening scene?

I'm sure there are blood elf fans that love the light and love ranger identity too, some who love the fel identity the blood elves got in TBC - and they probably have posted wanting to see more of that. Not once have you ever seen me attack them for it.

Do you think I would attack blood elf fans for wanting forests (they already have) or Rangers (also in their lore) or even druids (which they don't have in t heir lore) but I have been seriously down for that because it can easily make sense given the elven nature love they also get from their roots, they may just go about it slightly differently or maybe even the same, just not get on with the Darnasisan counterparts because of the exile.


I would never begrudge them.

[Tanaria]

No, you've just affected the opinions of fans on the boards you stalk, reinforcing incorrect perceptions of night elves because you don't want them to be shown to have the arcane and civilization wonder - wanting them to be on the horde, despite the fact this has also been a part of the night elves.

I've not done anything.

I state my opinion. I do not influence what other people post.
Have you ever considered the fact that your idea was just crap and everyone said such, in round-about ways?

The fact that you would go there, seems to tell me that your a little insecure about people's opinions outside your own.

- - - Updated - - -

No, you've just affected the opinions of fans on the boards you stalk, reinforcing incorrect perceptions of night elves because you don't want them to be shown to have the arcane and civilization wonder - wanting them to be on the horde, despite the fact this has also been a part of the night elves.

Yes, you full well know that arcane magical expertise, advanced magical civilization are things night elf race has as much as they do advanced druidism and forests as well as priestesses and temples or archers and rangers..but because you don't want your enemies to have them, you oppose suggestions and desires of alliance fans that want them, and lend all your support to alliance fans that call for savage forest elf identity for night elves.. skewing the perception of what fans want.

You have often gone on as if it's wrong to desire things for the race you love. But only attack desires for great arcane users and elven civilizations - this is what is hypocritical, because when the reverse is proposed you have been up in arms.

My proposal to take things from blood elves was a solution to solve the faction balance identity crisis. And I really think it would do the job, in that proposal Nightborne and blood elves would eventually be rebuilt too - but you were inflamed of the idea that you would lose these aspects of the two races completely while totally fine with those who were upset that the alliance night elves and high elves had exactly lost those things rather than shared them with the horde when blood elves were introduced and when Nightborne were taken to the horde instead.

You should understand and support the alliance fans wanting to see all the things in night elf lore for night elves, not just support it only if it's non-arcane, forest based and primitive based. That's hypocritical.

I support whatever the Alliance wants, so long as it doesn't impede on the Horde playerbase.

Since I am a part of the blood elf fanbase, I don't want anything that would have my race fall down into the gutter, just so nelf fans can feel better about themselves.
Plus, you have always failed at expanding your idea, because you never actually state how the Horde Elves, Forsaken and Highmountain are developed. Only, "they'll be developed later" and "just THINK!!!!"
That is why your idea fails and it wasn't just those on here who told you that, but those on the EU forums as well...Alliance and Horde fans alike.

You want the night elves to be full of greatness and every aspect of them covered - then why do you want to get rid of the same, but on the blood elves and expect the blood elf fanbase to alright with this? Something you said was "I'd tone down the Light and Arcane on the blood elves" and many people had to correct you and state that both were core to the Blood Elf race.
But instead, you'd create new "aspects" on what YOU deem cool.

I can't believe you can't see your own hypocrisy, in this regard.

Essentially, you don't like it when fans of other races state their views on night elves, but you think nothing of it, to strip the blood elf race of their core aspects and then, you sit at your PC with a surprised Pikachu face, when the blood elf fanbase tell you that what you want for OUR race, is total crap.

I'm sorry for what happened to the night elves and I'm sorry that the story isn't written in a way where they can get vengeance on Sylvanas, but that is not my fault, nor is it the Blood Elf race's fault, nor is it the Blood Elf fanbase's fault.

- - - Updated - - -

SNIP

Still don't see how this relates to the blood elf fanbase to be honest.

I'm opposed to Blood Elf Druids because it completely goes against why their ancestors were exiled and also makes them look like hypocrites.

Plus, Blood Elves already have powerful Magisters, strong Blood Knights and skilled Farstriders. Blizzard has been able to tell a story through each of these organisations and it's great. I'd rather not add more layers of crap, just for the sake of it. More fool the people who think they're going to get some fantastic story for new race/class combos. Just look at Gnome Hunters. Simply added in.

[Beloren]

@Tanaria - talk about having a chip on his shoulder huh
@ravenmoon - let it go, let it go! don't give a fuck anymore.

Remember that song? we don't care anymore, you got high elves, you got Highborne, wish you the best of luck. I hope blizzard give you a nice looking city.. I think the colours of Darnassus and Zin'Azshari should be used instead of those of Suramar so it looks different but still amazing - Suramar will always be what Suramar is, a night elf/nightborne capital the nightborne live in.

I expect your new capita to have beautiful buildings with nature woven into the stone like in Darnassus and Zin'Azshari, and I'm sure you will get a Highborne section which has lots of jewels like in Suramar - . I hope they show night elves as amazing, I a blood elf fan agree that you've been shown as shit in every department.. so i hope you get your powerful group of druids, priests and especially mages.

now please support the rebuilding and updating of Silvermoon so we can have an awesome city too.. I also wish they will do a pretty cool city for the void elves too. and continue to show void elves and high elves as powerful. What I don't want is for blood elves to be shown as weak .


Main differences between new night elf city and Suramar should be:
1. The presences of cool and fancy temple of Elune - basically just give a replica of the Cathedral of Eternal night
2. Use the building models in Suramar, Nar'thalas and zin'Azshari - but have them moon white, and interwoven with nature like we see the stone work in Darnassus buildings and like we see in the video of Zin'Azshari.
3. Lots of gardens and parks - the new night elf home will have many more gardens and parks, some of the tall buildings will have roof top gardens, the homes while similar design to Sruamar and Tel'anor are decorated bueatifully with lots of gardens, plants and flowers
4. Lots more animals and woodland creatures roaming the city - kinda like we had in Darnassus, so it feels very alive

5. Arcane wonders, since the Shen'dralar are the masters of this, should have some stunning wonders around. The highborne section too should have a different feel, a lot more jewels and ornametntion, than the other civilian sections, as well as less gardens, but also more rigidly ordered ones.

They would likely be the ones that build the civil centres too - so they could have a combination of really cool ornamentaiton like in Zin'Azshari, as well as nature interwoven so it's a mix of the two.

[Tanaria]

@Tanaria - talk about having a chip on his shoulder huh

It's ridiculous to think that I had any sway in how people viewed his ideas.
If that was the case, then the MMO-mods would have put me on a suspension.

If people share the same views as myself, then...they do.

[ravenmoon]

I've not done anything.

I state my opinion. I do not influence what other people post.
Have you ever considered the fact that your idea was just crap and everyone said such, in round-about ways?

The fact that you would go there, seems to tell me that your a little insecure about people's opinions outside your own.

But when you constnatly do it as often as you do, if I'm not there to correct some of your errors, peopel get the wrong idea and you influence them unduly.

You really need to read what I wrote.


- - - Updated - - -

I support whatever the Alliance wants, so long as it doesn't impede on the Horde playerbase.

Since I am a part of the blood elf fanbase, I don't want anything that would have my race fall down into the gutter, just so nelf fans can feel better about themselves.
Plus, you have always failed at expanding your idea, because you never actually state how the Horde Elves, Forsaken and Highmountain are developed. Only, "they'll be developed later" and "just THINK!!!!"
That is why your idea fails and it wasn't just those on here who told you that, but those on the EU forums as well...Alliance and Horde fans alike.

It did not fail, my alliance proposal was just not understood by you.

Don't feign ignorance as to how must forum posters wrok. They don't read long posts, so they read your short incorrect response, and assume you've understood what has been said which you haven't.

You seldom say something wrong Tanaria, it's jsut that whaat yous ay isn't actually waht i'm saying and you often haven't either read or understood what I've said..and they chirp in based on that.


Typicall example is what you have just said. I took time to explain in my proposal how the blood elves and nightborne would be rebuilt... you were so angry at the suggestion you never read that far, I know you idnd't, becuase you keep saying "you never actually state how the horde elves etc are developed" - I do, in the later pargraphs, not as much detail becuse they are not the focus .. ithe focus is about rebuilding the alliance, so the detail goes there, however i did go into a little dietail in building up the other horde races including the nightborne and blood elves that lost stuff. They gain just as much back down the line and equally cool but different.

The aim was not to gut the horde, but to raise the alliance and rebalnace. In order to raise the horde in TBC onwards, blizzard gutted the alliance... yes, the night elves were massively underdeveloped, their gutsy spirit, tenacity transferred tot he blood elves, the blood elves were developed more like night elven highborne from Azshara's palace to distinguish them from high elves - only to have blizzard write them back in as the high elves they once were.. they took assets from toher places but what they did is left most alaince races undeveloped for ages. Only humans got serious development and it was secondary to the horde almost like support cast.

You want the night elves to be full of greatness and every aspect of them covered - then why do you want to get rid of the same, but on the blood elves and expect the blood elf fanbase to alright with this? Something you said was "I'd tone down the Light and Arcane on the blood elves" and many people had to correct you and state that both were core to the Blood Elf race.
But instead, you'd create new "aspects" on what YOU deem cool.

You seem to be super confused. For the last time I didn't want to get rid of anything for blood elves. You are confusing a proposal to revitalise the alliance, with what I want for the game.


I made a proposal that stated plainly if you wan to rebuild the alliance and restore the faction identity of the horde and alliance, you need to get rid of the alliance elements on the horde, put them back on the alliance, and build up the horde in a unique non alliance way while making the alliance stuff also quite attractive and cool.

That topic was a very specific debate - I wasn't doing this as hey this is what I want now. What I want is actually for the night elves, Nightborne and none core alliance /horde races not to be in them. but especially the night elves (both kaldorei and Shal'dorei), and the Thalassian elves - because this shit show imbalnace development.

I write a post.. "if you want to fix the factions, do this" and this becomes what I want for blood elves according to you - I told you many times, this is what I feel needs to happen to fix the faction idneitty crises, not what I want persay. But you didn't like it, you were so offended by it you enver even got to the part when the blood elves were revealed.

I can't believe you can't see your own hypocrisy, in this regard.

Essentially, you don't like it when fans of other races state their views on night elves, but you think nothing of it, to strip the blood elf race of their core aspects and then, you sit at your PC with a surprised Pikachu face, when the blood elf fanbase tell you that what you want for OUR race, is total crap.

I'm sorry for what happened to the night elves and I'm sorry that the story isn't written in a way where they can get vengeance on Sylvanas, but that is not my fault, nor is it the Blood Elf race's fault, nor is it the Blood Elf fanbase's fault.

That's total b/s, your entire analysis is based on mis-understanding me, and not getting what I was saying. All because you weren't careful enough to read through.

Still don't see how this relates to the blood elf fanbase to be honest.

I'm opposed to Blood Elf Druids because it completely goes against why their ancestors were exiled and also makes them look like hypocrites.

Plus, Blood Elves already have powerful Magisters, strong Blood Knights and skilled Farstriders. Blizzard has been able to tell a story through each of these organisations and it's great. I'd rather not add more layers of crap, just for the sake of it. More fool the people who think they're going to get some fantastic story for new race/class combos. Just look at Gnome Hunters. Simply added in.

I'm talking about different matter, about the blood elf fanbase opposing night elf fans asking for more stuff related to their lore, just like they opposed alliance fans asking for high elves. And this happened a lot, and you were one of the ring leaders. Sure it was your opinion, just staying what it was. You opposed it back then.

Although you've changed now, and become better in my opinion, you were very anti in the past.

- - - Updated - - -

It's ridiculous to think that I had any sway in how people viewed his ideas.

I wasn't referring to my idea when I was talking about your influence, the reference was to opposing night elf improvements not to the proposal of fixing the alliance - that was a specific incident.

If that was the case, then the MMO-mods would have put me on a suspension.

If people share the same views as myself, then...they do.

You won't be banned for influencing people with your views, correct or incorrect, it's not against forum rules for people to listen to you even if you are incorrect or it's based on mis-information.. the mods aren't lore police or accuracy police they are there to uphold forum rules, ban forbidden tpics or disruptive opinions, not ban errors, lies or manipulations, willing or not.

[Mace]

People play elves for the magical fantasy.. the premium fantasy is magical arcane

You will disadvantage one group heavily if you push the premium in one over the other. However because arcane is more core to the identity of the alliance it would have made sense this was greater there. But it doesn't have to be.

The problem here is the night elves who have had in lore this as part of their identity and in lore are said to have gone the furthest in both elven magic and elven civilization don't have anything to show for it in the playable race.

This is the bit fans desire most. Give it you make everyone happy. And you can give it without taking from the horde (although I understand what Raven was trying to say in that alliance post - he wasn't trying to remove stuff from the horde but showing what he felt was the best way to bring balance to the faction s AND restore the identity of the factions as truly separate entities).

if night elves have this in their fantasy, they shouldn't have to play Nightborne on the opposite faction the game developers want you to hate, in order to experience it.. and they shouldn't be stuck with hey.. you're a night elf your identity is only forests

[Tanaria]

SNIP

Alot of waffle and nothing new said.

I'm not confused either, Ravenmoon. I saw what I saw. You wanted to reduce the Arcane and Light focus in the Blood Elves and replace it with Fel and Necromancy. (Neither of which are core aspects of the Blood Elves.)
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...lar/186033/520

The idea was crap. Hell, even pro-high elf fans were saying the idea was crap.

Stop beating the dead horse. We all know it won't happen because blizzard are sensible in that regard.

[Mace]

@Tanaria - talk about having a chip on his shoulder huh
@ravenmoon - let it go, let it go! don't give a fuck anymore.

Remember that song? we don't care anymore, you got high elves, you got Highborne, wish you the best of luck. I hope blizzard give you a nice looking city.. I think the colours of Darnassus and Zin'Azshari should be used instead of those of Suramar so it looks different but still amazing - Suramar will always be what Suramar is, a night elf/nightborne capital the nightborne live in.

I expect your new capita to have beautiful buildings with nature woven into the stone like in Darnassus and Zin'Azshari, and I'm sure you will get a Highborne section which has lots of jewels like in Suramar - . I hope they show night elves as amazing, I a blood elf fan agree that you've been shown as shit in every department.. so i hope you get your powerful group of druids, priests and especially mages.

now please support the rebuilding and updating of Silvermoon so we can have an awesome city too.. I also wish they will do a pretty cool city for the void elves too. and continue to show void elves and high elves as powerful. What I don't want is for blood elves to be shown as weak .


Main differences between new night elf city and Suramar should be:
1. The presences of cool and fancy temple of Elune - basically just give a replica of the Cathedral of Eternal night
2. Use the building models in Suramar, Nar'thalas and zin'Azshari - but have them moon white, and interwoven with nature like we see the stone work in Darnassus buildings and like we see in the video of Zin'Azshari.
3. Lots of gardens and parks - the new night elf home will have many more gardens and parks, some of the tall buildings will have roof top gardens, the homes while similar design to Sruamar and Tel'anor are decorated bueatifully with lots of gardens, plants and flowers
4. Lots more animals and woodland creatures roaming the city - kinda like we had in Darnassus, so it feels very alive

5. Arcane wonders, since the Shen'dralar are the masters of this, should have some stunning wonders around. The highborne section too should have a different feel, a lot more jewels and ornametntion, than the other civilian sections, as well as less gardens, but also more rigidly ordered ones.

They would likely be the ones that build the civil centres too - so they could have a combination of really cool ornamentaiton like in Zin'Azshari, as well as nature interwoven so it's a mix of the two.

imo, use the Zin'azshari template for the city centre, use the Suramar residential buildings for the homes. have a bigger temple and a park in the middle (think central park new york), but have them in various areas.

Night elves are stars and moon - so think silver, moon white, star effects - with blue and purple. Those e zin'azshari roof styles are perfect too. use them.

Nightborne are more the arcane purple from teh mage arcane tree, that's more their thing, the buidlings in Suramar have a different lighting, that makes them have a darker night glow/feel.


They really just need to piece together the buildings they've already done. In a cool way and create an effect that's beautiful and unique.

You want stars for night elves
You also want leaves, petals and flowers
You want magical effects from Elune and the Well of eternity - so think about the glows, maybe some powerful moon light balls on buildings
Glowing stars on buildings or actually the walls themselves radiate starlight and moonlight.

Make it feel magical in the ways that are faithful to night elf lore and the night elf race... so stars, glowing effects (representing arcane power and children of the stars), treants, creatures and nature interwoven into the marble walkways and building walls, this along with roof top gardens, homes with lots flowers and plants and park areas is how you show nature (not primitive or rural buildings like some people want). Then I support also having a great temple of Elune, but also now the crescent moon and full moon symbols can glow, this is something Suramar doesn't have. as it is i missing a priesthood and Elune's arcane power presence.

[Tanaria]

imo, use the Zin'azshari template for the city centre, use the Suramar residential buildings for the homes. have a bigger temple and a park in the middle (think central park new york), but have them in various areas.

Night elves are stars and moon - so think silver, moon white, star effects - with blue and purple. Those e zin'azshari roof styles are perfect too. use them.

Nightborne are more the arcane purple from teh mage arcane tree, that's more their thing, the buidlings in Suramar have a different lighting, that makes them have a darker night glow/feel.


They really just need to piece together the buildings they've already done. In a cool way and create an effect that's beautiful and unique.

You want stars for night elves
You also want leaves, petals and flowers
You want magical effects from Elune and the Well of eternity - so think about the glows, maybe some powerful moon light balls on buildings
Glowing stars on buildings or actually the walls themselves radiate starlight and moonlight.

Make it feel magical in the ways that are faithful to night elf lore and the night elf race... so stars, glowing effects (representing arcane power and children of the stars), treants, creatures and nature interwoven into the marble walkways and building walls, this along with roof top gardens, homes with lots flowers and plants and park areas is how you show nature (not primitive or rural buildings like some people want). Then I support also having a great temple of Elune, but also now the crescent moon and full moon symbols can glow, this is something Suramar doesn't have. as it is i missing a priesthood and Elune's arcane power presence.

Have you ever thought that this could happen on Mt Hyjal? The very place where Blizzard are setting the new night elf home?
Druids and Priestesses are the primary leaders of the nation, but a brand new Temple of Elune is built over the Well of Eternity, whereby the Priestesses call upon Elune's power through the waters of the Well.

Shen'dralar Mages are stationed on the other side of the Well, or even - set up near the former Satyr's Tower, but a large base camp/village is built around that location. They have their own Moonwell, which contains arcane-magical remnants and they conduct their own experiments.

I mean, if it's a location that becomes hostile to the Horde, then so be it. Put a bronze dragon in, let us time-turn back to Cataclysm so we can still do the Firelands raid.

[Beloren]

snip

But Raven, fans not getting your super detailed analysis on night elves is not the blood elf fans' fault.

• Blood elf fans didn't write most of the stuff in books
• It wasn't blood elf fans that told blizzard they should take ages to develop night elves
• It's not blood elf fans' fault blizzard actually never finishes the story of the races in classic.

A little bird told me that originally, the races had a full story planned out till 60, they ran out of development time. I presume that you would have gradually learnt more about the night elves' priesthood and arcane elements culminating in Dire Maul. I say this because in Darkshore you start getting introduced to the ancient civilization of the night elves as a player.. it is here you first learn (in-game) that the night elves had an extensive civilization that is in ruins.

As you go along you see lots of runs in their area, but the racial story stops in Ashenvale. in Ashenvale you first start meeting Elune, she speaks to you at one of the shrine stones, there is much that isn't developed after that.. presumably you would have learnt all about the Well of Eternity etc, but it was never finished. This is not the blood elf fans' fault. And night elves were not the only race that suffered.

In fact night elves were lucky that at least you got books telling you more story, and this si why you can write your essays, you at least have info. So much stuff for other r aces wasn't shown. Nor was it told. And it' snot our fault.

We never told blizzard they shouldn't make your models better, or give you crooked neck. And whiles some of us did oppose you getting "cool" arcane stuff, can you blame us, in game, it's not the image of night elves we could easily see.. and that is not our fault..so how can you really blame us for saying things like night elves have a forest identity?

What you should have done was kindly correct us, not aggressively correct us. You were too aggressive, and i think the reaction to you was not your content but your attitude - you came off as super arrogant, treating as like we were either your enemy or ignorant. I get you were passionate, but how you said thing has probably ruined a lot of what you wanted .

Just saying.

[Tanaria]

But Raven, fans not getting your super detailed analysis on night elves is not the blood elf fans' fault.

• Blood elf fans didn't write most of the stuff in books
• It wasn't blood elf fans that told blizzard they should take ages to develop night elves
• It's not blood elf fans' fault blizzard actually never finishes the story of the races in classic.

A little bird told me that originally, the races had a full story planned out till 60, they ran out of development time. I presume that you would have gradually learnt more about the night elves' priesthood and arcane elements culminating in Dire Maul. I say this because in Darkshore you start getting introduced to the ancient civilization of the night elves as a player.. it is here you first learn (in-game) that the night elves had an extensive civilization that is in ruins.

As you go along you see lots of runs in their area, but the racial story stops in Ashenvale. in Ashenvale you first start meeting Elune, she speaks to you at one of the shrine stones, there is much that isn't developed after that.. presumably you would have learnt all about the Well of Eternity etc, but it was never finished. This is not the blood elf fans' fault. And night elves were not the only race that suffered.

In fact night elves were lucky that at least you got books telling you more story, and this si why you can write your essays, you at least have info. So much stuff for other r aces wasn't shown. Nor was it told. And it' snot our fault.

We never told blizzard they shouldn't make your models better, or give you crooked neck. And whiles some of us did oppose you getting "cool" arcane stuff, can you blame us, in game, it's not the image of night elves we could easily see.. and that is not our fault..so how can you really blame us for saying things like night elves have a forest identity?

What you should have done was kindly correct us, not aggressively correct us. You were too aggressive, and i think the reaction to you was not your content but your attitude - you came off as super arrogant, treating as like we were either your enemy or ignorant. I get you were passionate, but how you said thing has probably ruined a lot of what you wanted .

Just saying.

All core races have only received 1 or 2, maybe 3 zones which is relative to their core story.

The slightly luckier races were Humans, Night Elves, Forsaken, Orcs and Blood Elves - where their stories had involvement in other zones.
One example would be Sin'dorei Ambassadors dotted around Lordaeron.

This was a development between the Elves and their relation to Sylvanas.

[Mace]

Have you ever thought that this could happen on Mt Hyjal? The very place where Blizzard are setting the new night elf home?
Druids and Priestesses are the primary leaders of the nation, but a brand new Temple of Elune is built over the Well of Eternity, whereby the Priestesses call upon Elune's power through the waters of the Well.

Hyjal would work too, it would good to recreate how the night elves developed in the earlier days too. So the priests studying the Well, and the mages too using it would be welcome.

The druids should own the forests nearby, but in teh city kinda be in charge of the park. Central park could have one of those Aldrassil like buildings, a tree home building, but that architecture shoudl be scarece in the city, as it would occur a lot in the forests of Hyjal, Ashenvale and Val'sharah.. mean while the new city, Nar'thalas and Eldre'thalas will be cities.


That could work.

Shen'dralar Mages are stationed on the other side of the Well, or even - set up near the former Satyr's Tower, but a large base camp/village is built around that location. They have their own Moonwell, which contains arcane-magical remnants and they conduct their own experiments.

I mean, if it's a location that becomes hostile to the Horde, then so be it. Put a bronze dragon in, let us time-turn back to Cataclysm so we can still do the Firelands raid.

WHat i'd love lizzard to do is show the night elves with a far more powerful resolve and detemrination.

Much ahs changed, they're on the brink of extinction, they are angry much taht is goodand precious has been destroyed. This includes their civilziation from 10,000 years ago, destoryed by the legion and their forests, recently destroyed by the nightmare and the horde.. everything has so much destruction.

They now have druids, mages and priests, the best of the best from all their eras, and they have both a world tree with access to the Emerald dream and the Well of Eternity, plus the power of the night warrior and the font of Elune.

So I feel blizzard should write a recovery and excellence story for them.

1. How they start using the Well of eternity, and what is different now is that it's back to how it was in the very first days, priests and mages studying and in a sense helping keeping each other in check.

by lore - priests and the sentinels still view the waters of the Well of Etenrity as sacred, Elune's waters.... while mages use the power to wrought great wonders, night elves use to have great respect for this..until the addiction era.. this is what needs to be recaptured to show there is a difference and to show how it used to be.

2. Elune and the priesthood and how they operate in a city. This was never shown in Suramar, for obvious reasons, it only focused on the arcane culture of the kaldorei without the priesthood, that complex interaction war of the ancients spoke about isn't seen, because the priesthood left. Whiles it won't exist here, because you don't have an Azshara essentially trying to win the adulation of her people hoping they revere her even more than the goddess, but you do have a play between the Highborne and priesthood of a different sort.

The Highborne know and do civilization and civil leadership very well, they were the best leaders of the kaldorei - the priest lead spiritually, but the upper class was designed to lead in civil matters. No one holds the Highborne in as high regard anymore, so they are very keen to show themselves worthy of the resppect, and explains why they go over the top in helping make the city better than the best work of the pre-sundering empire.


3. Night elves have a population problem too, remember the old Darkshore quests? Night elves have been waiting a long time to redeem both Satyr, and ghosts who haunted the ancient cities after their tragic and violent death left them trapped. We also have a zone full of good Highborne night elves in Azsuna - it would be great if they could finally find a way to restore these. While the souls in the shadowlands cannot return, perhaps Elune could restore the ones in Azsuna, Ameth'aran, Bashal'aran, and the Cathedral of Eternal night - so we get a huge influx of priests and Highborne . Meanwhile we get the nightmare druids restored to sanity in Val'Sharah as well as some off the trapped night elf worgen returned to help increase their population.


4. How do night elves actually hold their lands very successfully from both horde and alliance? Via the incredible power they wield.. they wield the power of the well of etenrity, the power of the World tree and emerald dream and the power of Elune - this is how they hold their Kalimdor and Broken Isle lands so successfully with so few, because they're
seriously empowered

5. They get their immortality back too, it's a racial wide thing too, so the Nightborne get it back as well when the Well of eternity is now opened up for use.


The balance:
Night elves aren't going on a conquest, nor trying to restore their empire..this is a huge difference in the benevoelnt kaldorei and th trolls. The night elves just want their forests (druids) and civilization (highborne/civilizans) and temples (priests) restored and their sacred lands protected and free from other races . For the future of their kind. They're not at war with the Nightborne, so Suramar zone is where the two factions interact. Suramar is 100% Nightborne, but night elves are back in Moonguard Stronghold, Tel'anoar, they restore both teh temple of Falanar, Meredil and the Cathedral of eternal night.


The night elves in charge there are also friendly with the Nightborne because they are mostly broken isle night elves, not those

[ravenmoon]

All core races have only received 1 or 2, maybe 3 zones which is relative to their core story.

The slightly luckier races were Humans, Night Elves, Forsaken, Orcs and Blood Elves - where their stories had involvement in other zones.
One example would be Sin'dorei Ambassadors dotted around Lordaeron.

This was a development between the Elves and their relation to Sylvanas.

The bigger races have a lot more.. humans, orcs too if you count outland and draenor etc


The 2-3 zones was faction controlled, if the race is no longer in teh faction, it doens't stop them from holding that land.. and them holding that land doesn't stop us from having quests in tehre either.

If or one would like to have quests that demonstrate the night elves are powerful enough to hold those lands and show how too. Sometimes it would be powerful druids protecting the forest..

Sometimes it would be powerful mages - showing the Moonguard training is awesome

Sometimes powerful senitnels and archers/hunters
Sometimes powerful demon hunters too - (it doesn't matter that illiari are a different faction, the night elf ones can still help out against evil and corruption like they've always done)
Sometimes it's the powerful undead ones - woud lvoe to see those in Ravencrest play a role too for good.

- - - Updated - - -

Hyjal would work too, it would good to recreate how the night elves developed in the earlier days too. So the priests studying the Well, and the mages too using it would be welcome.

The druids should own the forests nearby, but in teh city kinda be in charge of the park. Central park could have one of those Aldrassil like buildings, a tree home building, but that architecture shoudl be scarece in the city, as it would occur a lot in the forests of Hyjal, Ashenvale and Val'sharah.. mean while the new city, Nar'thalas and Eldre'thalas will be cities.


That could work.


WHat i'd love lizzard to do is show the night elves with a far more powerful resolve and detemrination.

Much ahs changed, they're on the brink of extinction, they are angry much taht is goodand precious has been destroyed. This includes their civilziation from 10,000 years ago, destoryed by the legion and their forests, recently destroyed by the nightmare and the horde.. everything has so much destruction.

They now have druids, mages and priests, the best of the best from all their eras, and they have both a world tree with access to the Emerald dream and the Well of Eternity, plus the power of the night warrior and the font of Elune.

So I feel blizzard should write a recovery and excellence story for them.

1. How they start using the Well of eternity, and what is different now is that it's back to how it was in the very first days, priests and mages studying and in a sense helping keeping each other in check.

by lore - priests and the sentinels still view the waters of the Well of Etenrity as sacred, Elune's waters.... while mages use the power to wrought great wonders, night elves use to have great respect for this..until the addiction era.. this is what needs to be recaptured to show there is a difference and to show how it used to be.

2. Elune and the priesthood and how they operate in a city. This was never shown in Suramar, for obvious reasons, it only focused on the arcane culture of the kaldorei without the priesthood, that complex interaction war of the ancients spoke about isn't seen, because the priesthood left. Whiles it won't exist here, because you don't have an Azshara essentially trying to win the adulation of her people hoping they revere her even more than the goddess, but you do have a play between the Highborne and priesthood of a different sort.

The Highborne know and do civilization and civil leadership very well, they were the best leaders of the kaldorei - the priest lead spiritually, but the upper class was designed to lead in civil matters. No one holds the Highborne in as high regard anymore, so they are very keen to show themselves worthy of the resppect, and explains why they go over the top in helping make the city better than the best work of the pre-sundering empire.


3. Night elves have a population problem too, remember the old Darkshore quests? Night elves have been waiting a long time to redeem both Satyr, and ghosts who haunted the ancient cities after their tragic and violent death left them trapped. We also have a zone full of good Highborne night elves in Azsuna - it would be great if they could finally find a way to restore these. While the souls in the shadowlands cannot return, perhaps Elune could restore the ones in Azsuna, Ameth'aran, Bashal'aran, and the Cathedral of Eternal night - so we get a huge influx of priests and Highborne . Meanwhile we get the nightmare druids restored to sanity in Val'Sharah as well as some off the trapped night elf worgen returned to help increase their population.


4. How do night elves actually hold their lands very successfully from both horde and alliance? Via the incredible power they wield.. they wield the power of the well of etenrity, the power of the World tree and emerald dream and the power of Elune - this is how they hold their Kalimdor and Broken Isle lands so successfully with so few, because they're
seriously empowered

5. They get their immortality back too, it's a racial wide thing too, so the Nightborne get it back as well when the Well of eternity is now opened up for use.


The balance:
Night elves aren't going on a conquest, nor trying to restore their empire..this is a huge difference in the benevoelnt kaldorei and th trolls. The night elves just want their forests (druids) and civilization (highborne/civilizans) and temples (priests) restored and their sacred lands protected and free from other races . For the future of their kind. They're not at war with the Nightborne, so Suramar zone is where the two factions interact. Suramar is 100% Nightborne, but night elves are back in Moonguard Stronghold, Tel'anoar, they restore both teh temple of Falanar, Meredil and the Cathedral of eternal night.


The night elves in charge there are also friendly with the Nightborne because they are mostly broken isle night elves, not those

When ou think Night elves you want to see:

druids and forests
also mages, highborne and kaldorei pre-sundering cities
You want to see naga and satyr beaten, but also elves capable of it
you want to see the night elves do good by all the things they use to be able to do - arcane or nature wise
You want to see more of that mysterious star and moon stuff, both teh magic and how it plays in culture
You want to see more of Elune
Nightborne and Suramar too - even though they are on the other faction - it's all part of the night elf stuff
You want to see more of Cenarius and the wild gods too
You want to see more of the Emerald dream and world tree
you want to see more of the Well of Etenrity and Moonwells used well
ANd you want immortality back

you wanna see:
Wardens:
Moonguard:
Demon Hunters
Highborne
Moon Priestesses
Druids of the claw
Druids of the talon
Balance druids


You want to see
those fabulous temples
Cool night elf city
beautiful forests


When I think night elves, I think both forests and cenarius, Elune and highborne, Moonguard and night cities, and I think teh stars and moon. Both the Treants and dryads as well as the Well of etenrity and mages figure into it.. but night elven versions full of star and moon magic. So iw ant to se emore of this stuff..


Should they ever remake the zones, I don't want it to be just forest ruins.. but forests and cities. I want to see as much Preistesses as highborne and moonguard in temples and cities as i do druids, treants and dryads/keepers in forests

[Beloren]

I'm wondering how hard it is for blizzard to fix up the night elves well.

Presumably they have:
1. All the assets for Suramar
2. They have pristine versions of all the ruins in
a) Meredil
b) Nar'thalas
c) Zin'Azshari
d) Cathedral of Eternal night
e) all the ruined temples of Elune
- if I understood correctly, they actually have pristine versions first, then ruin them example:

Then they can literally

1. Build a new city piecing together different bits from all these, then colouring them correctly and adding magical effects, population
2. Actually place rebuilt ruins in many places, we could have a rebuilt Azsuna, Meredil, in Darkshore and Ashenvale all those ruined cities could simply be put together in different combinations, colours etc
3. Repairing forests would be easiest - although they could change the colouring of the damaged parts.


I must admit I have an ulterior motivation for suggesting this.. I want them to focus on upgrading the blood elf assets. If they do this well, they can actually use use the same process to populate Thalassian town.. all they need to do for void elves is simply change the spire tops and colours to purple and gold with void effects and void wings instead of phoenix wings.

Swap the arrangement around, and bingo you get both a city for blood elves and one for void elves/high elves.

Night elves get their fancy new home - minimum effort spent and it's not Suramar, but it's just as nice
Void elves also get their city too, they can enjoy it for all it's dark themes but can have space for High elves too.. but

Blood elves get an updated Silvermoon and Quel'thalas properly reparied, with a restored forest, restored city, restored villages and towns, and some new architecture models.