This is very unpopular but there's nothing wrong if Sylvanas ends up being redeemed.

[Raisei]

Redemption arcs take work. Vader sacrificed himself for his son and killed the emperor in the process. Vader showed no signs of development before that, did nothing to help anyone around him at anytime.

With Sylvanas, it’s the abrupt turnaround that is off putting. Not only that, according to the reveals, Sylvanas has not had any agency for quite awhile now. What was once a badass character is now being portrayed as a victim

The last almost 30 years of Warcraft story just got retconned to “the devil made me do it”

You are completely right, but I would say it would have been extremely difficult to redeem her otherwise. They have not even remotely enough time to do it any other way. Especially with SLs only going to 9.2..
The only realistical outcome for the Sylvanas from BFA was death by raid group. End of Story. She is a genocidal villan that needs to have her head cut off as we have done with dozens of other people on her level.

The problem is that Danuser refuses to make that jump. And probably the PR and AD people aren't hating that one of their T&A heavy hitters will stick around. So now the story serves to satisfy Danuser's kink and those people, to hell with its logical coherence.

[bloodmoth13]

I think its fine, i hate a lot of the story beats though.
Sylvanas made sense since warcraft 3 till probably cataclysm, then her story had her doing things that made no sense for the character and they didnt reveal nearly enough to frame it properly.
redemption is fine but her story since cata has been garbage. i still dont know why she did half of what she did.

[Raisei]

arthas always had free will. he was also a dick before taking up frostmourne.

Untrue on both counts. First of all Arthas was extremely concerned for the people in his kingdom, so much so that he was going to protect them even if it meant that he had to sacrifice his very soul. He figuratively did that when he killed the people in Stratholme and then when he picked up Frostmourne he actually lost it. He did know his deeds were terrible and he only went through with them because he felt he had to. He certainly wasn't perfect, but he was not a dick by any means.

Unfortunately Forstmourne was not the thing that would save his people as he thought when he picked it up, it did the opposite. As the Lich King had intended. And that is where his mind control began. Unless you want to tell me that his 360° turn, going back to Lordaeron and gleefully killing his entire kingdom is somehow explainable otherwise. It is not. Besides, he regularly received orders from the Lich King after that, which he could not disobey.

[Minikin]

Some of the greatest stories ever told are stories of great redemption precisely in the face of most people not believing they can be redeemed. Take Star Wars for example; people loved it also because the heart of the story was the redemption of the most evil person in the galaxy itself; he had murdered millions of people and nobody believed - not even the audience themselves - that he can be redeemed; yet Luke believed in him and he was redeemed and it was glorious.

The evil of Vader was like a spec of dust compared to the behemoth that was Palpatine. Hardly think he qualified as the most evil.

If Sylvanas would be in star wars, she'd be Tarkin authorizing the death Star against Alderaan. Not Vader. If Vader was in WoW he would be the player character honestly.

Not the warchief. Just someone who is stuck on the threads of destiny (writer script).

[epigramx]

If Vader was in WoW he would be the player character honestly.

Wat. When were we evil (for whole seasons)?

[h4rr0d]

Killing children is fine then I take it?

Not sure, ask the Allies that were carpet bombing German (EDIT: and apparently also Japanese) cities (sometimes not even those, when they just missed their target completely). Ultimately, when a strategic target needs to be eliminated (which Teldrassil undoubtedly was), the war does not discriminate.

EDIT2: Btw, which side used WMDs to end a conflict again?

[Minikin]

Wat. When were we evil (for whole seasons)?

Should have clarified. Vader (in the vacuum of this discussion) then he would be the HORDE player character.

Sylvanas made bad calls. The horde was dragged along for it.

Garrosh made bad calls. The horde was dragged along for it.

There is no choice in the matter. The writers decided. There are no alternatives.

Anakin brought balance to the force. Didn't really have a choice in how or what why. Just that he did.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure, ask the Allies that were carpet bombing German (EDIT: and apparently also Japanese) cities (sometimes not even those, when they just missed their target completely). Ultimately, when a strategic target needs to be eliminated (which Teldrassil undoubtedly was), the war does not discriminate.

EDIT2: Btw, which side used WMDs to end a conflict again?

You know what's funny. I've asked this question in other places before. Yet have to see a good answer to it.

Who knows. Any day now the US will find those nukes Saddam was supposedly hiding. Any day now.

[Alanar]

The fundamental issue is simply that you can't go, take a character that has done questionable things for over 17 years, only to then reveal that this was actually just their evil twin.

That's the whole crux of Shadowlands in its connection to Warcraft 3: It wasn't set up, nor intended, nobody of Danusers talk is going to convince anybody that Metzen planned this.
And the obvious plotholes that arise from it (such as Mal'ganis role in Warcraft 3 / Wotlk) are proof of that.

With Vader, Empire strikes back at least established that Vader had some paternal feelings for Luke.

That's it realy.., Shadowlands in general with lore and everything felt like it was set up like 2 months prio, this Sylvanas nonsense she had an evil twin for 17 years, completely ruined her character. The undead laady who fought off the scourge to give now the free undead a meaning, outcasts. All ruined by this 1 month old concept that won to be put in the game.

Shame, she used to be cool.. Good job ALEX! now go get some gurls!

Edit: She was ruined the moment patty started doing her voice in WOTLk, when she still had this very weird english accent undertone, when she is just from the states. Horrible voice acting.. she never felt like Sylvanas in wotlk to me. Her old voice actor including her famous lines all had a very undead elven sinister voice and very iconic. None of that work was done by patty.

[Kralljin]

Shame, she used to be cool.. Good job ALEX! now go get some gurls!

Alex Afrasiabi is likely responsible for BfA.
Shadowlands, especially anything from 9.1 and onwards, is Danuser's handiwork.

[Xath]

Some of the greatest stories ever told are stories of great redemption precisely in the face of most people not believing they can be redeemed. Take Star Wars for example; people loved it also because the heart of the story was the redemption of the most evil person in the galaxy itself; he had murdered millions of people and nobody believed - not even the audience themselves - that he can be redeemed; yet Luke believed in him and he was redeemed and it was glorious.

Except wow's storytelling is terrible and there isn't justification for redeeming her. Also Star Wars isn't really amazing storytelling in terms of Vader people love it because it's the quintessential hero's journey they identify with Luke not Vader. Vader is a plot device in the original trilogy.

[AngerFork]

Alex Afrasiabi is likely responsible for BfA.
Shadowlands, especially anything from 9.1 and onwards, is Danuser's handiwork.

This makes me wonder if perhaps the disconnect between Teldrassil & the redemption of Sylvanas might've been Danuser getting stuck with a crappy hand from all sides. If Ion & team wanted Sylvanas to be alive & redeemed for some reason going into 10.0 (I'm still thinking as a savior for a Void-crazed Alleria) & Afrasiabi burned Teldrassil while turning Sylvanas super evil just before leaving the company, that well could have put Danuser in a weird situation he didn't know how to save. Not that there weren't ways to save it, he just couldn't see them & instead failed in a new way.

Not that such a thing would forgive the story we have currently, the story is honestly far worse than it's seemingly ever been & a lot of that falls at how this story was told. This was perhaps salvageable in better hands.

[TheRevenantHero]

There is absolutely no justification for Sylvanas' redemption. No build up. No explanation. This was absolutely written a month before they started work on 9.2 and there is no way I'd believe otherwise. It's just such shitty fucking writing.

[Khaza-R]

This makes me wonder if perhaps the disconnect between Teldrassil & the redemption of Sylvanas might've been Danuser getting stuck with a crappy hand from all sides. If Ion & team wanted Sylvanas to be alive & redeemed for some reason going into 10.0 (I'm still thinking as a savior for a Void-crazed Alleria) & Afrasiabi burned Teldrassil while turning Sylvanas super evil just before leaving the company, that well could have put Danuser in a weird situation he didn't know how to save. Not that there weren't ways to save it, he just couldn't see them & instead failed in a new way.

Not that such a thing would forgive the story we have currently, the story is honestly far worse than it's seemingly ever been & a lot of that falls at how this story was told. This was perhaps salvageable in better hands.

I heavily doubt that's the case. Especially since I believe it was Danuser who said they were moving past the Legion and Old Gods as traditional villains so they could tell this trash cosmic forces, avengers wannabe storyline.

[cparle87]

Theres nothing wrong with redemption if you set the story in a way that ends up making sense.

They have been, though. We knew something was wrong with Uther from the beginning, later finding out he was missing a portion of his soul which was experiencing existence from an independent standpoint from the rest of him, leading to a major paradigm shift when he got it back. Finding out that Sylvanas was experiencing this effect all the way since Cataclysm is a good setup I think. It's like the orcs detoxing off the blood curse and going "Oh god what have I done?!"

[Kralljin]

This makes me wonder if perhaps the disconnect between Teldrassil & the redemption of Sylvanas might've been Danuser getting stuck with a crappy hand from all sides. If Ion & team wanted Sylvanas to be alive & redeemed for some reason going into 10.0 (I'm still thinking as a savior for a Void-crazed Alleria) & Afrasiabi burned Teldrassil while turning Sylvanas super evil just before leaving the company, that well could have put Danuser in a weird situation he didn't know how to save. Not that there weren't ways to save it, he just couldn't see them & instead failed in a new way.

If anything, i rather believe that Danuser simply changed the script once he assumed control of it after Afrasiabi got the boot.

It's not like Danuser's adoration for Sylvanas has eluded the fanbase.

[Nathreim]

The problem is we needed more information about what Sylvanas' motives are.

We STILL don't know what she was offered just vague notions of freeing us from something. This is terribly writing from the start Blizz needs to replace all its writers with people who understand the lore, what players want, story development and character arcs.

Whats worse is we could have had this expansion without her being on the Jailer's side the entire story shows that she is just pointlessly along for the ride. In fact her involvement opened the way for us to stop the jailer when eventually the Maw would have grown to swallow all of SL and the Jailer would have won by default.

She is so forced in the story that she breaks so much of her previously established character. She should have never been Warchief.

[florclorbromiod]

I think you missed the last where Vader was not redeemed

How can you fail to understand an old movie so bad? You literally see Anakin with the force ghosts of Obi Wan and Yoda at the end. He's clearly been forgiven.

Maybe not by history, but certainly by his family and loved ones.

[Chromeshellking]

That's extremely subjective. The greatest stories of redemption had "unforgivable" things as well; in my OP I mentioned a story of a person that was exploding whole planets (let alone genocide); most popular religions also teach that you must be able forgive even your greatest enemies so it's a very archaic and core human knowledge.

At the end of the day it's about if people believe in punishment or rehabilitation because if you truly believe in punishment: you would never forgive any of those people: you would always kill them.

And one is not justified and the other isn't. I would ask you quote the whole of his statement to keep the context of the statement. As in if you murder an innocent child yes that is not something that washes clean. I feel sorry for people who cannot grip this concept.

[munkeyinorbit]

he went to jedi 'heaven', how the f8ck is that not redemption?


this isn't subjective, this is ignorance, he went to jedi 'heaven', do ppl get punished in heaven these days?

my opinion: yes there is, some points once u cross it can't be forgiven, and sylvannas list is missing only rape, at least directly (hard to assume her list doesn't include soldiers under her command raped, after all they did worse like toying with death use corpses burn alive children etc), u can't redeem that, specially since how bad laughable her MORALLY GREY story represented, ping pong all time from up to down, how she noticed she has boobs after being in leadership for over 12 years before that at least, and so on
the story is bad that the story doesn't deserve redemption, not 'Sylvannas' but her story in first place, and best 'end' is being forgotten to oblivion like many stories they were planning in wow only to end in whimper (like Crystalsong forest, or the plan for old kingdom)

He didn't go to Jedi heaven. The movies states it is a Jedi skill to be learned. Obviously anyone who has the time can use this Jedi skill to go to this afterlife.

For the redemption part, he redeemed himself in the eyes of his son, that much is clear. Does anything else really matter to DV? I would guess not. If that is the case then DV was redeemed.

Why is the Skywalker story so loved? You see DV move from evil to someone with some feelings to eventually sacrificing himself for his son. It is far from high cinema but for the age group these movies are aimed at, kids, it's at least coherent and makes sense.

From the story in wow it went from WoW Hitler to victim in one step. There was no arc. It is just lazy.

[Mehrunes]

I didn't say she was repent just stupid. It's her defining character trait next to cowardice. In legion she prolonged the legion invasion by not accepting the horde taking casualties in the broken shore. In bfa she threw away a battle she was winning by killing her own troops with plague to inflict minor casualties on the alliance. Then at the end she screamed her evil plans to get kicked out of the horde.

Yeah, literally every single one of these is wrong. The Horde couldn't do squat at the Broken Shore after Vizuul summoned in the Legion spaceships that started bombarding their position, especially since getting close to the portals topsite only resulted in Sargeras personally smiting you.

On top of that the Horde withdrawal didn't change anything in the Alliance's immediate circumstances, because the spaceships didn't fire at them at all, the demons up top would have needed to take a hike around the entire island to get to the Alliance and the arrival of the gunship replaced the Horde's anti-air support from the Dark Rangers (god knows why Varian didn't bring any archers of his own to begin with). The Alliance retreated just because they'd eventually be overrun and they couldn't accept that, so if there's anyone who threw the fight, it would be them.

Except the Broken Shore was literally unwinnable, because we couldn't have sealed the main portal without the Pillars of Creation anyway and the whole thing was a trap from the get go (that we walked into thanks the Alliance as well). Oh, and it was Vol'jin who ordered the Horde retreat, not Sylvanas.

As for Lordaeron, the soldiers Sylvanas blighted were gone either way. They sallied out on their own and lost the skirmish, getting trapped before an advancing Alliance army and the gates that wouldn't have been opened to them under those circumstances, because that'd be simply inviting the Alliance pursuers into the city. And contrary to your fantasies the Blight didn't inflict minor casualties. It literally broke Alliance's ranks by as per Genn and according to Anduin himself that counterattack meant that the whole Alliance offensive was for nothing. If not for Jaina ex machina the Alliance would have been shattered right then and there.

Finally, Sylvanas wasn't kicked out of anything, she left on her own volition. Because as Lor'themar speculated, she no longer needed the Horde to achieve her goals. An assumption she proved correct in Shadowlands.

Garrosh didn't have a redemption arc because Garrosh was unrepentantly garrosh.

And thats why he's cooler than Sylvannas. None of this 'oh i was corrupted or manipulated or had my soul split' nonsense. He went down his path and stuck with it till the end, for better or worse.

Technically the Sylvanas we followed for the past two decades remained unapologetic to the very end, telling the doppelganger Sylvanas that the Teldrassil BBQ was the right thing to do even in the latest cinematic. It's only the Sylvanas 2.0 that Danuser pulled out of his ass just recently because his skill-less ass couldn't think of achieving his desired result of redeeming Sylvanas otherwise that's apologetic for it.