[Spoilers] Shattered legacies (new cinematic)

[Alanar]

The cinematic shows us one thing and tells us another. It shows as that one half is unambiguously evil and the other is unambiguously good. It shows us the the halves are pretty much two different people. It shows us the good one has been physically separated from the bad one and had zero control over anything and therefore can't be by any stretch of logic condemned for the bad one's crimes. What it tells us is the opposite. It tells us that yes the good half should be condmened, that they're actually the same person.

It's so stupid because by claiming that it's a "past" and "present" Sylvanas they create a paradox. They claim that it's a "past Sylvanas" and "present Sylvanas" but present Sylvanas only exists because of the absence of "past Sylvanas". The "past Sylvanas" would have never turned out that way had she remained whole. "Present Sylvanas" is not actualy the future of "past Sylvanas". It's actually IMPOSSIBLE for "present Sylvanas" to be future "past Sylvanas", because the only reason "present Sylvanas" exists is because the "past Sylvanas" died (by died I mean got trapped in a crystal LOLL). The only reason one can exist is if the other doesn't. They only way either can exist is if the other doesn't. We didn't see an actual future "past Sylvanas" because she doesn't exist. If "past Sylvanas" was able to stay in her body, she would have turned out to be an entirely different person. Therefore "past Sylvanas" should absolutely not be associated with "present Sylvanas" because they literally can't be the same person.

And if they say "yeah well they're still the same person" then why do this idiotic exercise with splitting her soul in the first fucking place? It achieves absolutely nothing.

You are overthinking this, this is wow.. a 12+ game that just gave us a reason why Sylvanas was evil all this time.. probably out of all option they had left.. this option had the most votes in the team. The difficult thing about this.. for me that it doesn'tt feel genuine at all and feels like a last resort or something, we know we ruined her, but this is what we can do, to slighty please both sides of the opinions. We were set to believe this was the real Sylvanas and just formed by tragic life experience..., nope all staged.

It gives them both a reason to explain her evil side( lol), but also give them an option for her to return in some way.
It's like high elves.. can't please one side.. lets destroy the meaning high elf and give it to both sides, you can't please everyone.

[Mehrunes]

The cinematic shows us one thing and tells us another. It shows as that one half is unambiguously evil and the other is unambiguously good. It shows us the the halves are pretty much two different people. It shows us the good one has been physically separated from the bad one and had zero control over anything and therefore can't be by any stretch of logic condemned for the bad one's crimes. What it tells us is the opposite. It tells us that yes the good half should be condmened, that they're actually the same person.

It's so stupid because by claiming that it's a "past" and "present" Sylvanas they create a paradox. They claim that it's a "past Sylvanas" and "present Sylvanas" but present Sylvanas only exists because of the absence of "past Sylvanas". The "past Sylvanas" would have never turned out that way had she remained whole. "Present Sylvanas" is not actualy the future of "past Sylvanas". It's actually IMPOSSIBLE for "present Sylvanas" to be future "past Sylvanas", because the only reason "present Sylvanas" exists is because the "past Sylvanas" died (by died I mean got trapped in a crystal LOLL). The only reason one can exist is if the other doesn't. They only way either can exist is if the other doesn't. We didn't see an actual future "past Sylvanas" because she doesn't exist. If "past Sylvanas" was able to stay in her body, she would have turned out to be an entirely different person. Therefore "past Sylvanas" should absolutely not be associated with "present Sylvanas" because they literally can't be the same person.

And if they say "yeah well they're still the same person" then why do this idiotic exercise with splitting her soul in the first fucking place? It achieves absolutely nothing.

Another thought occurred to me in regards to the interpretation that both Sylvanases merge into one super Sylvanas instead of the good Sylvanas taking over with the memory of both. And, for the record, I doubt anyone calls the good Sylvanas that because they think she's literally all of living Sylvanas' morality, which made the Banshee Queen physically incapable of doing anything moral, it's just that the living Sylvanas that she represents (because she hadn't experienced the 15 years of undeath) is simply portrayed by the cinematic as a good person.

Anyway, the claim is that they merged into one cohesive entity because the good Sylvanas accepted what the Banshee Queen became in undeath and realized that if their places were swapped she'd at least have had the capacity to do the same. Thus resolving the internal conflict between the two halves of Sylvanas' soul. That's fine and dandy, but that's massively one sided. Why would the good Sylvanas' acceptance resolve the conflict by itself when - as the beginning showed - both halves disagreed with each other?

Because the Banshee Queen would sure as shit not accept her wolrdview in return as she sees it as shortsighted and naive. And she remains unapologetic about what she did even in the light of the whole Zovaal thing not panning out and flopping on its face. Hence, the conflict should remain. In other words, even the theory that they did merge fully and completely at the end still presents it as the good Sylvanas taking over, just by imposing her resolution onto the Banshee Queen instead.

[TheRealDavidTwo]

Would still like to see Sylvanas maybe executed for her crimes.....won't happen though. Imprisonment? Banishment? New Queen of Stormwind? A certain Dev would like to hope....

[Nerovar]

Hey aren't you a ff14 player where the main characters look like this

Doesn't change the fact that these models look like dog shit.

[iamthedevil]

this cinematic confirms my theory that there are 2 art teams. One is true to the wows original art design and the other group is fortnite style cartoonish empty, soulless without any intricacy.
Or it is just one art team but they switched to this model because it is less time and budget consuming.

I suspected it after seeing the zeret mortis for the first time but with models like this too, I am afraid this will be the future art style of wow. I don't think I want to pay money for that kind of art. That style is for indie companies, small businesses. It is a shame that the game's art turned into "fall guys" graphics.

Yeah no but maybe yes in a way because there is a current team and a team building the expansion. At the end of every expansion we see things that will be used in the next expansion. This is one of those things. Its because a new whatever was built and they are able to use it at this point. Very simple, always been that way.

[Izalla]

Another thought occurred to me in regards to the interpretation that both Sylvanases merge into one super Sylvanas instead of the good Sylvanas taking over with the memory of both. And, for the record, I doubt anyone calls the good Sylvanas that because they think she's literally all of living Sylvanas' morality, which made the Banshee Queen physically incapable of doing anything moral, it's just that the living Sylvanas that she represents (because she hadn't experienced the 15 years of undeath) is simply portrayed by the cinematic as a good person.

Anyway, the claim is that they merged into one cohesive entity because the good Sylvanas accepted what the Banshee Queen became in undeath and realized that if their places were swapped she'd at least have had the capacity to do the same. Thus resolving the internal conflict between the two halves of Sylvanas' soul. That's fine and dandy, but that's massively one sided. Why would the good Sylvanas' acceptance resolve the conflict by itself when - as the beginning showed - both halves disagreed with each other?

Because the Banshee Queen would sure as shit not accept her wolrdview in return as she sees it as shortsighted and naive. And she remains unapologetic about what she did even in the light of the whole Zovaal thing not panning out and flopping on its face. Hence, the conflict should remain. In other words, even the theory that they did merge fully and completely at the end still presents it as the good Sylvanas taking over, just by imposing her resolution onto the Banshee Queen instead.

So far this is the only argument I've seen that doesn't just dismiss the cinematic as "they are claiming Sylvanas was just an evil twin all along and the real one did nothing wrong!" or "the Jailer was mind controlling her all along this is so stupid" so thank you for that. I am definitely curious to see if they address that because the way the cinematic frames it definitely makes it seem like only "good" Sylvanas has to come to terms with things for the conflict to end, and we don't see any part where the "bad" Sylvanas has to come to grips with the fact that she let her former self down and did a lot of heinous shit that amounted to making everything worse not better. Maybe all it took was for one of them to give in and stop fighting and it didn't matter which one because there is no fight left if the other won't participate?

[Super Dickmann]

Because the Banshee Queen would sure as shit not accept her wolrdview in return as she sees it as shortsighted and naive. And she remains unapologetic about what she did even in the light of the whole Zovaal thing not panning out and flopping on its face. Hence, the conflict should remain. In other words, even the theory that they did merge fully and completely at the end still presents it as the good Sylvanas taking over, just by imposing her resolution onto the Banshee Queen instead.

The entire post hits the right point. This plot is poor by default, the soul split thing was always a mess, but to do its best iteration in the Uther questline and then to forget it for a much more important character is peak Blizzard. Potato Sylvanas should not have been the PoV, our Sylvanas should've been the PoV, the only time we see her is when she's quite obviously not reconciled and is giving Potato Sylvanas shit for criticizing her, but afterwards all attention moves to Potato Sylvanas accepting how she'll go on the cross for her and our sins. The fact that everything that the character of the last seventeen years did has been boiled down to "She burned the tree and that's bad" also eliminated any drama or exposition that could be worked in from having someone view the character from her own perspective. The tree is only important to the playerbase, to the character herself the tree was merely a means to an end, the cinematic is even aware of this and has Banshee Sylvanas cut off Potato Sylvanas about it. Her throwing herself off of Icecrown and going to hell or her experience of being MC'd by Arthas is much more important to her self-conception what with informing what she did from Cata on. Especially since post-retcon that is when she met the Bald Man. In other words, neither in PoV nor in actual content does the cutscene focus on plot beats that are relevant to Banshee Sylvanas' conception of herself, but in everything from visual language, to dedicated plot beat to simple perspective it centers Potato Sylvanas as the primary Sylvanas.

The words may be that they're all one Sylvanas, but we follow Potato Sylvanas in the cutscene, Potato Sylvanas is the one who must make a decision while the previous one has no agency and her opening her eyes is with Potato Sylvanas' color scheme, communicating visually she is now the dominant personality. And even supposing that's all Blizzard fucking up visual storytelling, which given shit as minor as looting WC3 Reforged assets for a half-second background shot, I really doubt, the fact that later on we do see that the resulting Sylvanas is assmad about not getting a warrant to kill Arthas shows we know which of the two Sylvani has more of her in the driver's seat. She does have this line from the same PTR where she briefly awakens from her stupor to call someone (Jaina? Anduin? Uther?) on the retardation of this logic, but we don't know if this is before or after the other Arthas-related dialogue:

Forgive him? For the atrocities he forced me to commit against my own people...

Jury's still out, but it isn't looking good for the actual Sylvanas.

[Kauko]

Froom epic cinematics in BFA to this... next level is Peppa pig 2d technic? This "leaderless" corporate thinking is destroying the industry...

[sighy]

I really doubt, the fact that later on we do see that the resulting Sylvanas is assmad about not getting a warrant to kill Arthas shows we know which of the two Sylvani has more of her in the driver's seat. She does have this line from the same PTR where she briefly awakens from her stupor to call someone (Jaina? Anduin? Uther?) on the retardation of this logic, but we don't know if this is before or after the other Arthas-related dialogue:

I agree with your whole post, but only want to add a bit. The dialogue seems to have been changed for the cinematic that's currently there to not include the "Forgive him?" line.

Just a bit of contrast I'd like to note between the original event and this depiction


slight difference really

[Super Dickmann]

I agree with your whole post, but only want to add a bit. The dialogue seems to have been changed for the cinematic that's currently there to not include the "Forgive him?" line.
slight difference really

Goddamn do I miss the zingers. Arthas's "Doesn't anybody stay dead anymore?" and "Are you still angry I took Jaina from you?" are also highlights. They kept Uther telling Arthas to go to hell, but they pussied out of including "Were you hoping to piss on (your father's ashes) one last time before you left this kingdom to rot?". The quality of shit talk has degraded constantly through the whole franchise and they're removing the good stuff there still is like Garrosh and Sylvanas's Silverpine exchange.

Re: the in-game cutscene, I know the line isn't there which is why the jury is still out on whether it's later from that exchange or not, as that'd change how much of the character's personality is intact.

[florclorbromiod]

Doesn't change the fact that these models look like dog shit.

That's your opinion, and compared to what he plays they're the Mona Lisa.

[Nerovar]

slight difference really

Kel'Thuzad and DK Arthas really was the best bromance in Warcraft lore.

[bagina]

Kel'Thuzad and DK Arthas really was the best bromance in Warcraft lore.

Yeah, it's a shame that he pretty much came and went in SL without absolutely any consequence.

[BaumanKing]

Kel'Thuzad and DK Arthas really was the best bromance in Warcraft lore.

Sigh, I always assumed that Kel'Thuzad would try to find Arthas in SL and help him in some way. But alas.

[bagina]

Sigh, I always assumed that Kel'Thuzad would try to find Arthas in SL and help him in some way. But alas.

Same. I also thought they would address his and Sylvanas' old conflict. But I guess Sylvanas didn't care much. "Le fractured soul" and "le Jailer's influence" prevented her from recognizing who he was I guess.

[Syegfryed]

Sigh, I always assumed that Kel'Thuzad would try to find Arthas in SL and help him in some way. But alas.

shadowlands would be way more compelling if it was just kel'thuzand as main villain trying to bring Arthas/lich king back from the maw

[Super Dickmann]

shadowlands would be way more compelling if it was just kel'thuzand as main villain trying to bring Arthas/lich king back from the maw

KT's impressive in being the most dicked character I've seen in quite a while and in the shortest timeframe. In the span of one paragraph of encounter journal text, his placement in the raid and maybe ten lines he's completely annihilated as a character, not just in the expansion, but retroactively. There's nothing wrong with him taking over a house in Maldraxxus, subversion is what he did while alive and the setup that he'd be piggybacking off the Blue Man and talks shit to Kael before being abducted, seemingly against his will as is implied in that quest is fine. Then purely within 9.1 they destroy Road to Damnation, one of the best short stories by changing it to him being scared of the Blue Man and not Ner'zhul (strike number 1319 against Ner'zhul) and making him a direct collaborar instead of starting out intimidated. Then they destroy his friendship with Arthas, one of the most interesting character beats WC3 did, in the same breath. Not content with turning his two main relationships to mush, they also completely waste him as a narrative tool by having him not encounter Alexandros or Kael in his final appearance, who's lives he ruined and putting him as just a penultimate boss. And to cap it off, he's the penultimate boss to Sylvanas, who was his mortal enemy, so not only is he ruined but he also damages her character by proxy in a way the narrative never addresses.

It's the absolute nadir of the whole expansion's writing and it does it in what must have been an afternoon of design. It's so shit on so many levels that it's actually kind of astounding in how concise it is with using the smallest amount of tools to destroy almost the totality of the character. At least his boss fight is okay.

[Syegfryed]

KT's impressive in being the most dicked character I've seen in quite a while and in the shortest timeframe. In the span of one paragraph of encounter journal text, his placement in the raid and maybe ten lines he's completely annihilated as a character, not just in the expansion, but retroactively. There's nothing wrong with him taking over a house in Maldraxxus, subversion is what he did while alive and the setup that he'd be piggybacking off the Blue Man and talks shit to Kael before being abducted, seemingly against his will as is implied in that quest is fine. Then purely within 9.1 they destroy Road to Damnation, one of the best short stories by changing it to him being scared of the Blue Man and not Ner'zhul (strike number 1319 against Ner'zhul) and making him a direct collaborar instead of starting out intimidated. Then they destroy his friendship with Arthas, one of the most interesting character beats WC3 did, in the same breath. Not content with turning his two main relationships to mush, they also completely waste him as a narrative tool by having him not encounter Alexandros or Kael in his final appearance, who's lives he ruined and putting him as just a penultimate boss. And to cap it off, he's the penultimate boss to Sylvanas, who was his mortal enemy, so not only is he ruined but he also damages her character by proxy in a way the narrative never addresses.

It's the absolute nadir of the whole expansion's writing and it does it in what must have been an afternoon of design. It's so shit on so many levels that it's actually kind of astounding in how concise it is with using the smallest amount of tools to destroy almost the totality of the character. At least his boss fight is okay.

i don't say im surprised, because we saw this happening since wod, their cope out there was because "alternative timeline", so it would make sense for then to act different.

but after that, they surgically destroyed stories, characters and the factions to basically "substitute the old warcraft with a new, strong and better warcraft".

when they tried to make a better MOP(BFA), because old MOP was from the old team, and the new one is so much better, i knew for a fact they would try to make a better WtLK, and of course they would do the exact same thing, ruin characters making then act different, retcon stories, pervert expectations, disregard logic and common sense, so on so on.

Is just astonishing how they can do WORSE at every patch, and their hate towards old lore must be researched, that is not normal.

[Houle]

KT's impressive in being the most dicked character I've seen in quite a while and in the shortest timeframe. In the span of one paragraph of encounter journal text, his placement in the raid and maybe ten lines he's completely annihilated as a character, not just in the expansion, but retroactively. There's nothing wrong with him taking over a house in Maldraxxus, subversion is what he did while alive and the setup that he'd be piggybacking off the Blue Man and talks shit to Kael before being abducted, seemingly against his will as is implied in that quest is fine. Then purely within 9.1 they destroy Road to Damnation, one of the best short stories by changing it to him being scared of the Blue Man and not Ner'zhul (strike number 1319 against Ner'zhul) and making him a direct collaborar instead of starting out intimidated. Then they destroy his friendship with Arthas, one of the most interesting character beats WC3 did, in the same breath. Not content with turning his two main relationships to mush, they also completely waste him as a narrative tool by having him not encounter Alexandros or Kael in his final appearance, who's lives he ruined and putting him as just a penultimate boss. And to cap it off, he's the penultimate boss to Sylvanas, who was his mortal enemy, so not only is he ruined but he also damages her character by proxy in a way the narrative never addresses.

It's the absolute nadir of the whole expansion's writing and it does it in what must have been an afternoon of design. It's so shit on so many levels that it's actually kind of astounding in how concise it is with using the smallest amount of tools to destroy almost the totality of the character. At least his boss fight is okay.

its almost impressive, isnt it?
theres not a single WC3 character that isnt fully destroyed, or at the very least considerably damaged, by the last few addons.
funny enough, you can say the same thing about the sub numbers lawl

[Syegfryed]

its almost impressive, isnt it?
theres not a single WC3 character that isnt fully destroyed, or at the very least considerably damaged, by the last few addons.
funny enough, you can say the same thing about the sub numbers lawl

i would say rexxar, but even him was damaged by

so Misha i guess, until they decide to fucking kill her too, cause what left.